Data Hero-King's Council: Video Analysis

[DariusM27]

Good question.

Personally, I would put it down to the fact that Leo is the better player.

It doesn't surprise me that Mr E lost 3-0 to VoiD; he plays a little too aggressively if you ask me. He's just asking to be bodied.

Pugwest, I can't really explain. He's playing Marth what I would consider to be a better way, which makes me believe that it is Leo who is just a better player.

I still don't think that the Marth v Sheik matchup is THAT bad. I still think Marth loses, but Leo is playing the matchup the arguably the best out of the rest of the other players.

I 100% agree about Mr E. He went in waaay too aggro vs Marss at Evo and got bodied in many ways he definitely could have avoided. Kind of like how Clouds sometimes think they can spam dash attack or cstick and still be safe.

Yeah, I think Pug lacks a bit in strategy. Most of all I think he plays a bit too obvious and Leo is more unpredictable. Sometimes switching things up is best rather than doing what is usually the "most optimal" thing again for the 50th time in a row.

 

[Vipermoon]

And Leo had to switch to MK as he saw Mr.R adapting. Anyway, I just got double eliminated by two Sheiks. I was mostly Cloud though.

 

[Bowserboy3]

That's unfortunate Vipermoon :/

How far did you get (and more importantly, how much did you use Marth)?

 

[AceTechHD]

Hello Ive been around (mostly on reddit) saying that Marth's range is not good enough and should be increased heavily. After playing this Pikachu on Sm4sh 3DS I am 100% without a doubt confident that Marth's range in Sm4sh is not long enough. This Pikachu was able to use a FULLY CHARGED F-Smash several times and I still wasn't able grab him afterwards, which means my F-Smash would have easily been spot dodged or blocked. Now there was a point where I grabbed Pikachu and flicked the stick backwards 3 TIMES and nothing happened. This is not the first time thats happened to me, does this happen to anyone else? I'll provide some background so I am clear, I've been maining Marth since day 1 both on 3DS & Wii U and I have over 650 hours invested in Sm4sh. If you'd like to play me in a friendly match my NID is AceTechHD and my 3DS FC is 2638 - 3061 - 8873. Can someone please help me improve my Marth because loosing to players such as this one is really starting to bug me. Thanks.
Video:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4yETdJ-P_rFdERScVNNYXQ2TzA

 

[ElementUser]

Hello Ive been around (mostly on reddit) saying that Marth's range is not good enough and should be increased heavily. After playing this Pikachu on Sm4sh 3DS I am 100% without a doubt confident that Marth's range in Sm4sh is not long enough. This Pikachu was able to use a FULLY CHARGED F-Smash several times and I still wasn't able grab him afterwards, which means my F-Smash would have easily been spot dodged or blocked. Now there was a point where I grabbed Pikachu and flicked the stick backwards 3 TIMES and nothing happened. This is not the first time thats happened to me, does this happen to anyone else? I'll provide some background so I am clear, I've been maining Marth since day 1 both on 3DS & Wii U and I have over 650 hours invested in Sm4sh. If you'd like to play me in a friendly match my NID is AceTechHD and my 3DS FC is 2638 - 3061 - 8873. Can someone please help me improve my Marth because loosing to players such as this one is really starting to bug me. Thanks.
Video:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4yETdJ-P_rFdERScVNNYXQ2TzA

That actually has nothing to do with Marth's range being too short - Pikachu's FSmash is a pretty safe move on shield if spaced well, because the shield stun & shield knockback is rather large. Also, Pikachu pulls his hurtbox backwards while he is charging up his FSmash (way more compared to Marth when Marth does his FSmash), so if you 2 were standing at a range close to where both of your FSmashes would connect at near-max range, Pikachu would win because it probably does have better horizontal range, and because of the hurtbox pull-back effect.

Next time you want to try to punish Pikachu after shielding his FSmash and he spot dodges every time you try to dash-grab for the fastest punish, try running up and charging an USmash until after his spotdodge ends. He did a spotdodge in this scenario like 6+ times and you did the same thing over and over. He also did FThrow to Dash Attack because you never tech the FThrow (he would've gotten way more damage on you if he just did a dash to jablock*3 and then did another throw combo or charged Fmash, so you were lucky you didn't get punished harder).

 

[DariusM27]

Hello Ive been around (mostly on reddit) saying that Marth's range is not good enough and should be increased heavily. After playing this Pikachu on Sm4sh 3DS I am 100% without a doubt confident that Marth's range in Sm4sh is not long enough. This Pikachu was able to use a FULLY CHARGED F-Smash several times and I still wasn't able grab him afterwards, which means my F-Smash would have easily been spot dodged or blocked. Now there was a point where I grabbed Pikachu and flicked the stick backwards 3 TIMES and nothing happened. This is not the first time thats happened to me, does this happen to anyone else? I'll provide some background so I am clear, I've been maining Marth since day 1 both on 3DS & Wii U and I have over 650 hours invested in Sm4sh. If you'd like to play me in a friendly match my NID is AceTechHD and my 3DS FC is 2638 - 3061 - 8873. Can someone please help me improve my Marth because loosing to players such as this one is really starting to bug me. Thanks.
Video:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4yETdJ-P_rFdERScVNNYXQ2TzA

A few things to try in the Pika MU.

-Use full hop nair, ascending and descending. Pika has a good chance of being caught by that, especially if they spam up b on you.
-Don't be too grounded. Being in the air is not a bad place to be vs Pika - in that match I think you played well considering how grounded you were, but mix it up more. At least once you perhaps could have punished those charge fsmashes with a nair or dair fastfall after a full hop.
-Approach with RAR B reverse shieldbreaker. If you space it well, they will either be hit with the tip or won't be able to roll behind, but this move seems to have a good track record as a mix up move.
-There are techs that you don't seem to be using, like - full hop fastfall nair1 fastfall, or just - nair1 instant fastfall, that could help. Another trick would be to change up your attack or movement rhythm, like doing - short hop, doublejump, fastfall, Fair, fastfall. Doing that input can catch people off gaurd, they don't expect a fair to catch them so quickly when you just reached the height of a jump, and fair has moderately decent endlag.
-Don't be overly aggro. I know from experience that those grabs wouldn't have worked, but you might have gotten dancing blade instead. Be campy and cheap if you have to, keep a safe distance, play it safe, and punish hard when you can.

 

[AceTechHD]

That actually has nothing to do with Marth's range being too short - Pikachu's FSmash is a pretty safe move on shield if spaced well, because the shield stun & shield knockback is rather large. Also, Pikachu pulls his hurtbox backwards while he is charging up his FSmash (way more compared to Marth when Marth does his FSmash), so if you 2 were standing at a range close to where both of your FSmashes would connect at near-max range, Pikachu would win because it probably does have better horizontal range, and because of the hurtbox pull-back effect.

Next time you want to try to punish Pikachu after shielding his FSmash and he spot dodges every time you try to dash-grab for the fastest punish, try running up and charging an USmash until after his spotdodge ends. He did a spotdodge in this scenario like 6+ times and you did the same thing over and over. He also did FThrow to Dash Attack because you never tech the FThrow (he would've gotten way more damage on you if he just did a dash to jablock*3 and then did another throw combo or charged Fmash, so you were lucky you didn't get punished harder).

In realism Pikachu shouldn't be able to outrange Marth in any scenario (outside projectiles) and the fact that he can definitely says something about Marth as a character in Smash 4. The reason I tried to grab Pikachu is because If i were to try an Up Smash for example Pikachu could roll bakwards and F-Smash again or roll backwards, grab me, and proceed to combo me.

 

[AceTechHD]

A few things to try in the Pika MU.

-Use full hop nair, ascending and descending. Pika has a good chance of being caught by that, especially if they spam up b on you.
-Don't be too grounded. Being in the air is not a bad place to be vs Pika - in that match I think you played well considering how grounded you were, but mix it up more. At least once you perhaps could have punished those charge fsmashes with a nair or dair fastfall after a full hop.
-Approach with RAR B reverse shieldbreaker. If you space it well, they will either be hit with the tip or won't be able to roll behind, but this move seems to have a good track record as a mix up move.
-There are techs that you don't seem to be using, like - full hop fastfall nair1 fastfall, or just - nair1 instant fastfall, that could help. Another trick would be to change up your attack or movement rhythm, like doing - short hop, doublejump, fastfall, Fair, fastfall. Doing that input can catch people off gaurd, they don't expect a fair to catch them so quickly when you just reached the height of a jump, and fair has moderately decent endlag.
-Don't be overly aggro. I know from experience that those grabs wouldn't have worked, but you might have gotten dancing blade instead. Be campy and cheap if you have to, keep a safe distance, play it safe, and punish hard when you can.

Good pointers, but in my experience playing a campy Marth usually leads to a bodied Marth. Let me explain. In the case of Pikachu he can spam neutral B and rack up damage or run up and grab me after I shield a neutral B. Whenever I try to approach with neutral air I usually miss or get shielded and if either of those happen Marth is open to get grabbed and punished. Against Sheik, ZSS, or Diddy that can be an easy 30% for the opponent. I literally tried everything I could of think of trying to punish those F-Smashes but ultimately I gave up.

 

[ElementUser]

In realism Pikachu shouldn't be able to outrange Marth in any scenario (outside projectiles) and the fact that he can definitely says something about Marth as a character in Smash 4. The reason I tried to grab Pikachu is because If i were to try an Up Smash for example Pikachu could roll bakwards and F-Smash again or roll backwards, grab me, and proceed to combo me.

I feel you're exaggerating too much on the "should" because you're trying to play your own game and forcing your own rules into a game that is incredibly complex. Too much focus on Marth's range (or apparent lack of). A lot of this has to do with active frames on Marth's hitboxes (hint: they are very short) in addition to the fact that most of your sword moves occur in an arc, while other characters have aerials that linger longer in the air (yes, the few frames difference is big here). Because of the arc motion, Marth's sword coverage is like a fence instead of a wall, and due to interactions between a character's hurtbox & Marth's active frames on his sword hitbox, it may be throwing you off. Especially when you factor in things like drifting backwards/forwards - that's part of microspacing by the way.

Anyway, you completely missed my point on that part - yes, if Pikachu read your option then he could have done what you said - the thing is though that you kept repeating the same thing when you were in the same situation 6+ times. Because you kept on doing the same thing, you get safely punished every single time. If you perform mixups, your neutral gameplay would be way better than it is now.

Based on your responses, I feel that you do need to work on the neutral game more, rather than trying to enforce what you think is correct in a complex game. If things aren't working out for you yet they are working out for others (e.g. Pugwest, Mr. E, other Marth/Lucina veterans), then it may not be the character's fault and is something on your end. I did not even bring up your technical skills at this point because that's not really relevant to the discussion at this time - those are things you work and develop on at a personal level and we know it takes time.

Good pointers, but in my experience playing a campy Marth usually leads to a bodied Marth. Let me explain. In the case of Pikachu he can spam neutral B and rack up damage or run up and grab me after I shield a neutral B. Whenever I try to approach with neutral air I usually miss or get shielded and if either of those happen Marth is open to get grabbed and punished. Against Sheik, ZSS, or Diddy that can be an easy 30% for the opponent. I literally tried everything I could of think of trying to punish those F-Smashes but ultimately I gave up.

One thing that I found that works is playing offline. Powershielding & dealing with projectiles is way easier offline compared to offline. In online play even in relatively "lagless" games, I can't powershield well. But I just played offline recently and I powershield so many projectiles or am able to avoid them without compromising my offensive pressure position in the footsies game.

At your second point: sometimes, you don't or cannot safely punish everything. When you notice that is becoming a trend, try to punish the followup action of the "unpunishable" move. And yes, some of those characters have a better neutral game than Marth - that much I am not debating against. Ultimately, it is up to each player to read the other player and mix up their options & their timings on the options so that each one can get hits in to ultimately take a stock.

 

[AceTechHD]

I feel you're exaggerating too much on the "should" because you're trying to play your own game and forcing your own rules into a game that is incredibly complex. Too much focus on Marth's range (or apparent lack of). A lot of this has to do with active frames on Marth's hitboxes (hint: they are very short) in addition to the fact that most of your sword moves occur in an arc, while other characters have aerials that linger longer in the air (yes, the few frames difference is big here). Because of the arc motion, Marth's sword coverage is like a fence instead of a wall, and due to interactions between a character's hurtbox & Marth's active frames on his sword hitbox, it may be throwing you off. Especially when you factor in things like drifting backwards/forwards - that's part of microspacing by the way.

Anyway, you completely missed my point on that part - yes, if Pikachu read your option then he could have done what you said - the thing is though that you kept repeating the same thing when you were in the same situation 6+ times. Because you kept on doing the same thing, you get safely punished every single time. If you perform mixups, your neutral gameplay would be way better than it is now.

Based on your responses, I feel that you do need to work on the neutral game more, rather than trying to enforce what you think is correct in a complex game. If things aren't working out for you yet they are working out for others (e.g. Pugwest, Mr. E, other Marth/Lucina veterans), then it may not be the character's fault and is something on your end. I did not even bring up your technical skills at this point because that's not really relevant to the discussion at this time - those are things you work and develop on at a personal level and we know it takes time.




One thing that I found that works is playing offline. Powershielding & dealing with projectiles is way easier offline compared to offline. In online play even in relatively "lagless" games, I can't powershield well. But I just played offline recently and I powershield so many projectiles or am able to avoid them without compromising my offensive pressure position in the footsies game.

At your second point: sometimes, you don't or cannot safely punish everything. When you notice that is becoming a trend, try to punish the followup action of the "unpunishable" move. And yes, some of those characters have a better neutral game than Marth - that much I am not debating against. Ultimately, it is up to each player to read the other player and mix up their options & their timings on the options so that each one can get hits in to ultimately take a stock.

That one match against that spamming Pikachu player in no way shape or form displays how I play regularly. If you wish to play me yourself it would be much easier to see what I'm actually doing wrong. Trying to punish a spot dodge for me is incredibly difficult. I have no way of knowing if that Pikachu player was going to throw out a down smash right after I tried missed a followup F-Smash or simply retaliate with another F-Smash. I thought grabbing Pikachu was the safest way of stopping him from spamming F-Smash. I thought that eventually I would be able to grab Pikachu. Eventually I did grab him though but I had to get creative. Plus I almost got bodied in the process. I understand Smash 4 is a very complex game and I don't know eveything about Marth, thats why I'm here. Only thing is I can't learn from text on a form I can only lean from playing more matches.

 

[DariusM27]

That one match against that spamming Pikachu player in no way shape or form displays how I play regularly. If you wish to play me yourself it would be much easier to see what I'm actually doing wrong. Trying to punish a spot dodge for me is incredibly difficult. I have no way of knowing if that Pikachu player was going to throw out a down smash right after I tried missed a followup F-Smash or simply retaliate with another F-Smash. I thought grabbing Pikachu was the safest way of stopping him from spamming F-Smash. I thought that eventually I would be able to grab Pikachu. Eventually I did grab him though but I had to get creative. Plus I almost got bodied in the process. I understand Smash 4 is a very complex game and I don't know eveything about Marth, thats why I'm here. Only thing is I can't learn from text on a form I can only lean from playing more matches.

Like I said before, there are some options that you don't seem to be using. I wasn't suggesting that you play campy exclusively, I said you could have tried to cover one of those charged fsmashed with a Dair or nair fastfall from full hop, a very aggro play to attempt, but feasible if you get the right read on an over confident pika.
But sometimes playing the run away game works, standing in one spot isn't effective at all though. Marth can safely run around pika usually without getting caught, if you have his movement options down. Move around till you find an opening.
If pika ever shields, get the grab or punish the spot dodge with dancing blade. If he doesn't ever shield, punish the roll or just hit him when he leaves himself open.
That pika definitely left himself open to air attacks.

Also, Marth's fair range slightly differs based on how you use it. It's largest if you fastfall immediately after input fair and the futherest hitbox will be right in front of you.
But if your fastfall is late, or you weren't positioned well before the fair, the move will have less range.
Or you could fair right before you land from a normal short hop to see what I'm talking about, although you may know already.

 

[Bowserboy3]

With all due respect (because there are some very knowledgable people on there), what is said on Reddit should be taken with a pinch of salt. Reddit is the place where the meme "Marth fights with a butterknife" is still a thing. Marth posesses one of the longest overall reaches in the game.

 

[AceTechHD]

With all due respect (because there are some very knowledgable people on there), what is said on Reddit should be taken with a pinch of salt. Reddit is the place where the meme "Marth fights with a butterknife" is still a thing. Marth posesses one of the longest overall reaches in the game.

Yes technically you are probably correct, but from experience that barley matters when his range is compared to the rest of the cast and how apparently some characters have unpunishable F-Smashes while a Marth player would get destroyed for spamming F-Smash. I'm the person who made this photo and I think it is a fitting example of my reaction of Marth's overall range in Smash 4

Oh and I'm just going to put this here for all those who still think my argument is invalid. Yes this actually was a thing in Smash 4

 

[AceTechHD]

Like I said before, there are some options that you don't seem to be using. I wasn't suggesting that you play campy exclusively, I said you could have tried to cover one of those charged fsmashed with a Dair or nair fastfall from full hop, a very aggro play to attempt, but feasible if you get the right read on an over confident pika.
But sometimes playing the run away game works, standing in one spot isn't effective at all though. Marth can safely run around pika usually without getting caught, if you have his movement options down. Move around till you find an opening.
If pika ever shields, get the grab or punish the spot dodge with dancing blade. If he doesn't ever shield, punish the roll or just hit him when he leaves himself open.
That pika definitely left himself open to air attacks.

Also, Marth's fair range slightly differs based on how you use it. It's largest if you fastfall immediately after input fair and the futherest hitbox will be right in front of you.
But if your fastfall is late, or you weren't positioned well before the fair, the move will have less range.
Or you could fair right before you land from a normal short hop to see what I'm talking about, although you may know already.

That Pikachu player didn't leave himself open as much as you seem to be implying. When he was spamming neutral B I couldn't just jump at him with a forward air or neutral air because I would miss (Marth's range lol) and get bodied by Pikachu's F-Smash. You may say what about down air, well that move has a ton of landing lag and if I would have tried that I would have lost and gotten 2 stocked. Just look at how complicated it was grabbing that Pikachu. I had to roll, then spot dodge the F-Smash perfectly (and risk getting bodied) to secure that grab so I could get an up throw kill.

 

[ElementUser]

I actually found MK Leo's Marth play and I feel it's the perfect example for you to watch AceTechHD

Marth vs. Sheik matchup. Sheik gets a lot of easy combos & conversions, but has a tough time killing. MK Leo uses Marth less predictably and uses some options that I spoke of in another thread & some options that I did not bring up (Up-B as a combo breaker, Air Dancing Blades as an aggressive recovery option to land safely on stage because hardly anyone expects Marth to have 3-4 multihit moves when recovering, well-spaced Jab to turnaround Dancing Blades as a pressure tool at the ledge, landing UAir for its low lag option & shield pressure/crossups when landing, well-spaced aerials, Nair 1 into UTilt).

I feel that to play Marth well, you do actually have to be a player with great fundamentals and understanding of the matchup + your options. Marth might seem easy to play on the surface, but he's one of the harder characters to play at a high level IMO.

 

[AceTechHD]

I actually found MK Leo's Marth play and I feel it's the perfect example for you to watch AceTechHD

Marth vs. Sheik matchup. Sheik gets a lot of easy combos & conversions, but has a tough time killing. MK Leo uses Marth less predictably and uses some options that I spoke of in another thread & some options that I did not bring up (Up-B as a combo breaker, Air Dancing Blades as an aggressive recovery option to land safely on stage because hardly anyone expects Marth to have 3-4 multihit moves when recovering, well-spaced Jab to turnaround Dancing Blades as a pressure tool at the ledge, landing UAir for its low lag option & shield pressure/crossups when landing, well-spaced aerials, Nair 1 into UTilt).

I feel that to play Marth well, you do actually have to be a player with great fundamentals and understanding of the matchup + your options. Marth might seem easy to play on the surface, but he's one of the harder characters to play at a high level IMO.

Thats an excelent Marth. Sadly he'd destroy me, and so would that Sheik. I'd like to bring up this set Mr. E played at EVO witch I feel proves my point.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Yes technically you are probably correct, but from experience that barley matters when his range is compared to the rest of the cast and how apparently some characters have unpunishable F-Smashes while a Marth player would get destroyed for spamming F-Smash. I'm the person who made this photo and I think it is a fitting example of my reaction of Marth's overall range in Smash 4

Oh and I'm just going to put this here for all those who still think my argument is invalid. Yes this actually was a thing in Smash 4

In your first paragraph, you say that "a Marth player would get destroyed for spamming F-Smash". Why would you, as a Marth player, not expect to be getting punished by spamming one of his laggiest options? Range isn't the issue here, it's the endlag.

People are so over centralised on Marth's Fsmash having lower range this time around, that they don't stop to think that almost all of his other moves have much more reach than he actually had in Brawl, and in turn, more than almost all characters in the cast, save about 6. Not many moves in the game can straight up challenge Marth's Forward, Up and Down Tilts due to their range and disjoint. Marth's Nair is one of the longest reaching aerials in the game. Forward Air scuffs up most characters aerial approaches 1 to 1.

Your argument is invalid, because that is an old GIF of an old patch. That GIF isn't even relevant any more. Most characters in this game have hitboxes that extend slightly past where they should. This GIF came about because of the two characters; Marth was one of the few characters who didn't have this luxury, and Sheik did, but to an even more extreme rate, extending far more than it should have done.

This was fixed in 1.1.4, where Marth was bought up to speed, and Sheik's was toned down a little (worth mentioning that it still extends quite a way past where it should) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXO9D8OqgW8.

And the set you posted above isn't more of a Marth problem, it's a player problem. Mr E plays Marth far more aggressively than the other good Marth players, and in a matchup like Sheik, that's not going to work 9 times out of 10. MK Leo shows us the correct way to play in the Sheik matchup.

---

With that out of the way, I came here to share a video of me. I'm looking for a bit of critique. Is there anything you think I could be doing better with Marth here? I was trying to play a mixture of mainly defensive and spacing, but also adding a little offense here and there to lure Bayonetta into a false sense of security, and make her unsure of what to do.

Here's the video. 1:20 would have been far more interesting if my spacing wasn't off.

Also, the music is god

 

[AceTechHD]

In your first paragraph, you say that "a Marth player would get destroyed for spamming F-Smash". Why would you, as a Marth player, not expect to be getting punished by spamming one of his laggiest options? Range isn't the issue here, it's the endlag.

People are so over centralised on Marth's Fsmash having lower range this time around, that they don't stop to think that almost all of his other moves have much more reach than he actually had in Brawl, and in turn, more than almost all characters in the cast, save about 6. Not many moves in the game can straight up challenge Marth's Forward, Up and Down Tilts due to their range and disjoint. Marth's Nair is one of the longest reaching aerials in the game. Forward Air scuffs up most characters aerial approaches 1 to 1.

Your argument is invalid, because that is an old GIF of an old patch. That GIF isn't even relevant any more. Most characters in this game have hitboxes that extend slightly past where they should. This GIF came about because of the two characters; Marth was one of the few characters who didn't have this luxury, and Sheik did, but to an even more extreme rate, extending far more than it should have done.

This was fixed in 1.1.4, where Marth was bought up to speed, and Sheik's was toned down a little (worth mentioning that it still extends quite a way past where it should) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXO9D8OqgW8.

And the set you posted above isn't more of a Marth problem, it's a player problem. Mr E plays Marth far more aggressively than the other good Marth players, and in a matchup like Sheik, that's not going to work 9 times out of 10. MK Leo shows us the correct way to play in the Sheik matchup.

---

With that out of the way, I came here to share a video of me. I'm looking for a bit of critique. Is there anything you think I could be doing better with Marth here? I was trying to play a mixture of mainly defensive and spacing, but also adding a little offense here and there to lure Bayonetta into a false sense of security, and make her unsure of what to do.

Here's the video. 1:20 would have been far more interesting if my spacing wasn't off.

Also, the music is god

Hmm, well the main reason I said that "was" a thing in Smash 4 was to prove that Marth's range wasn't (and in my opinion still isn't) adequate. I am well aware that is an old gif and I made that somewhat clear in my post. I also want to bring up how on earth it is fair that a Pikachu player can spam F-Smash with out a worry and I can't with Marth without getting bodied? It's questionable game design in my honest opinion. EDIT: This guy has the right idea

As for your footage. You seem to be incredibly proficient with Marth so I couldn't really give you any real printers. Usually when I see a Bayonetta player I figure I'm going to loose unless this player isn't very good, and go on with my day. The fact that you were able to stand up to her without much issue definitely means your Marth is very good. I'm sure someone else will have more to tell you. Great work.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I also want to bring up how on earth it is fair that a Pikachu player can spam F-Smash with out a worry and I can't with Marth without getting bodied? It's questionable game design in my honest opinion. EDIT: This guy has the right idea

As for your footage. You seem to be incredibly proficient with Marth so I couldn't really give you any real printers. Usually when I see a Bayonetta player I figure I'm going to loose unless this player isn't very good, and go on with my day. The fact that you were able to stand up to her without much issue definitely means your Marth is very good. I'm sure someone else will have more to tell you. Great work.

The fact that Pikachu can "spam F-Smash" (even though this really isn't totally true) and Marth can't is just how the game works. Characters work differently. It's the same reason it's fair for Marth to almost non-committingly overuse Jab in neutral and Pikachu can't. You could even use your question to wonder why Sheik can be completely all over Lucario for a game and Lucario gets 2 reads and Sheik dies. It's just how the game operates; characters play different and have different pros and cons. If every character could do the same things, the game would be incredibly one dimensional and boring to watch/play.

Marth's Fsmash has more range than Pikachu's, but Pikachu's is overall easier to use because it's endlag is a bit less punishable, and due to it being an electric attack, produces more stun on shield. What's more, you have to consider the reward for landing said moves. If Pikachu hits you with his Fsmash, you might die at around 90%. If Marth hits you with his Fsmash the way you are meant to (tipper), you can die at around 40%. In no way is this questionable game design when you consider everything as a whole rather than in a vaccum.

Thanks for your comments on my video though. I find Bayonetta usually requires a defensive and safe playstyle to beat, and Marth excels in this area quite a bit.

 

[ElementUser]

Bowserboy3 at this time, all I'm going to say is: good choice of music for your video it's from Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon & one of my favourite tracks there!

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 at this time, all I'm going to say is: good choice of music for your video it's from Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon & one of my favourite tracks there!

Actually, if you want some trivia, the song is originally from the game before Super, Gates to Infinity.

Gates is definitely the weakest of the series, having next to no aftergame, and only around 200 Pokemon playable (which is less than even the first game), but if there's one thing the game got right, it was some awesome soundtrack. A few songs got re-used in Super, like Stompstump Peak, and then things like Ragged Mountain, Stony Cave, Hazy Pass etc. They are all really good.

It's nice to see somebody with a similar taste in music however

 

[AceTechHD]

Actually, if you want some trivia, the song is originally from the game before Super, Gates to Infinity.

Gates is definitely the weakest of the series, having next to no aftergame, and only around 200 Pokemon playable (which is less than even the first game), but if there's one thing the game got right, it was some awesome soundtrack. A few songs got re-used in Super, like Stompstump Peak, and then things like Ragged Mountain, Stony Cave, Hazy Pass etc. They are all really good.

It's nice to see somebody with a similar taste in music however

I was going to ask how you changed Marth's voice clips to the ones from FE Fates. Is that some kind of mod?

 

[Bowserboy3]

I was going to ask how you changed Marth's voice clips to the ones from FE Fates. Is that some kind of mod?

Yeah, it's a mod. If you look closely at the character portrait next to the percents, you can see that it's actually not on Marth's default costume either, but the 6th one (you can tell by the silver lining on his clothing). I replaced this with the default costume, and then applied the Fates voices to just that skin, so effectively, I have a default Japanese Marth, and a default English Marth to choose from, which is cool.

 

[DariusM27]

I am starting to think that Leo is using 1.1.7 Marth. He's... just...too...goooood.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3JWxopNIb5s

This and other videos of a tourney he recently won are mandatory viewing. Rest of the Leo videos are at the channel.

 

[Vipermoon]

Don't scare me like that. I thought there was a patch.

 

[Eddie G]

Different Marths bring different strengths to the table, however I feel as if Leo has the best micro-spacing in neutral with his usage of perfect pivots in combination with jab (to test the opponent's reaction), dancing blade, and the occasional shieldbreaker. I know a lot of Marths implement these tools but his understanding of how to space himself while remaining mobile AND baiting a reaction out (while on the ground) is a big step in the right direction for Marth's Smash 4 meta.

Also, this is a Losers Finals set from Northeast Ohio's most current weekly with myself going against E2C|Colinies. I've been playing Marth vs Fox for years since my time in Melee but any additional feedback or different perspectives on my play in this game is always appreciated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkvlJbNnajk

 

[DariusM27]

More MK Leo. The kid is a smash god.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhMS18YRfYI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNcgNZLXgms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1mo5rYNgzo

Different Marths bring different strengths to the table, however I feel as if Leo has the best micro-spacing in neutral with his usage of perfect pivots in combination with jab (to test the opponent's reaction), dancing blade, and the occasional shieldbreaker. I know a lot of Marths implement these tools but his understanding of how to space himself while remaining mobile AND baiting a reaction out (while on the ground) is a big step in the right direction for Marth's Smash 4 meta.

Also, this is a Losers Finals set from Northeast Ohio's most current weekly with myself going against E2C|Colinies. I've been playing Marth vs Fox for years since my time in Melee but any additional feedback or different perspectives on my play in this game is always appreciated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkvlJbNnajk

You have a great Marth, keep it up. Can't really think of anything negative to say about it. Maybe could be better at punishing shields using grab.

 

[Vipermoon]

You can tell Leo is improving! Damn. And he didn't even need to improve!!

 

[DariusM27]

One more - grand finals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NodDOUf8uwQ

Yeah, every now an then he does something slightly unsafe like a weak fair into shield, and I think he uses short hop into Uair as a spacing option a tad too much, but... other than that I almost don't see how he does what he does. He's so good it's not fair.

 

[DariusM27]

Mk Leo again - Different tourny this time.

Grand Finals - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulQnXMRyZ1Y

Winners Finals - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1PlXsdz1hQ

Winners Semis - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcw5niSgK34

Winners Quarters - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk2z5-BuEqg

Winners Bracket - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfF1eKs1oPA

His Marth exterminates Sheik like swatting a fly.

 

[Dezmu]

Kill Lock vs Blacktwins

 

[DariusM27]

This seems like a trick Marth could benefit very much from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-JKYfu2tQI

 

[DariusM27]

Capn Falcon vs Marth Crew battle in Japan

Marth lost (face palm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peIYzPaETJU
But but, we are top tier right? How could all those falcons have bodied Marth so easily?

 

[Bowserboy3]

But but, we are top tier right?

I'd say we're high tier - I think the 4BR is the closest to where he is (I think he could be a couple of spaces higher, but not many). ZeRo seems to have a fetish with having to always place an FE character in the top tier. But unfortunately, other people seem to take what he says as gospel. It's amazing how many personal tier lists I have seen in the past couple of weeks that have placed Charizard as a mid tier. He's been ranked higher these past 2 weeks than he's ever been in the lifespan of Smash 4!

But yeah, considering this was online, I'd take this with a pinch of salt. Marth and online aren't exactly the best mix when considering spacing etc.

Still, it was interesting to watch. It seems Japan doesn't like the Black skin.

 

[Vipermoon]

Falcon might secretly beat Marth. He does way too much damage on each exchange (6+ Uairs for example). Dthrow works well on Marth (Dthrow to Knee or Bair can be inescapable at times). His well-time Dair can make short work of Dolphin Slash. Marth truly struggles at landing against this character. And related to that Jab and Dash Grab punish Marth things that most characters can't hope to punish.

Marth bodies Falcon in his own way of course. But what I'm saying is that Falcon might body Marth more than Marth bodies him.

 

[JayE]

Falcon/Marth MU is a matchup that I play frequently because my brother mains Falcon. When I fight Falcons I usually can win, but there are some players I've fought that make fighting Falcon a nightmare, and make you realize that he's so fast and strong. The thing about Falcon is sure he gets combo'd easily by many characters, but he can destroy anyone, lol.
Here's some epic matches against Falcon a while ago.

 

[DariusM27]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad1rf2xPrfo

Sometimes you just have to perfect shield to instant tipper fsmash. Sometimes.

 

[JayE]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad1rf2xPrfo

Sometimes you just have to perfect shield to instant tipper fsmash. Sometimes.

Hey Darius do you remember me? You used to comment on my Marth videos a lot, I don't know if you still watch or even remember. But still its cool to see that you're still here, I had an old account last year that I used, but I forgot it after a long hiatus and had to make a new and improved one, lol.

 

[DariusM27]

Hey Darius do you remember me? You used to comment on my Marth videos a lot, I don't know if you still watch or even remember. But still its cool to see that you're still here, I had an old account last year that I used, but I forgot it after a long hiatus and had to make a new and improved one, lol.

Yeah, I think so, I just watched some of your vids, good stuff man.

Falcon/Marth MU is a matchup that I play frequently because my brother mains Falcon. When I fight Falcons I usually can win, but there are some players I've fought that make fighting Falcon a nightmare, and make you realize that he's so fast and strong. The thing about Falcon is sure he gets combo'd easily by many characters, but he can destroy anyone, lol.
Here's some epic matches against Falcon a while ago.

Ggs, he's a good looking player.
You had the Ko after the shieldbreak if you pushed him to the edge and fullcharge tippered him, but you brought it back, gg.

Yeah, Falcon is safer, has better approach game, header punishes, and his moves follow into eachother.
Makes me think of how Zero said he won more tournys with Falcon, and he doesnt even main him.
Falcon would be higher tier than Marth, but there's more skill in Marth community than the Falcon community, imo.
But with the regent tournys, things perhaps seem to be changing.

Yeah Jay, I'm loving your uploads man, good stuff with Marth!

 

[JayE]

Yeah, I think so, I just watched some of your vids, good stuff man.



Ggs, he's a good looking player.
You had the Ko after the shieldbreak if you pushed him to the edge and fullcharge tippered him, but you brought it back, gg.

Yeah, Falcon is safer, has better approach game, header punishes, and his moves follow into eachother.
Makes me think of how Zero said he won more tournys with Falcon, and he doesnt even main him.
Falcon would be higher tier than Marth, but there's more skill in Marth community than the Falcon community, imo.
But with the regent tournys, things perhaps seem to be changing.

Yeah Jay, I'm loving your uploads man, good stuff with Marth!

After the shieldbreak I didn't think I had enough time to push him to the ledge and full charged tipper, so I went with a different punish lol.
Thanks! I have hundreds of Marth videos and they will keep coming :D