Data Hero-King's Council: Video Analysis

[moofpi]

Double posting for justice.

Hail Smash III
MK_Leo(whole time)
vs D~Elvis
https://www.twitch.tv/hydraprogaming/v/69209183?t=35m45s
vs Javi
https://www.twitch.tv/hydraprogaming/v/69209183?t=01h15m28s
vs Hyuga
https://www.twitch.tv/hydraprogaming/v/69209183?t=03h14m43s
GF: vs Sergy (really)
https://www.twitch.tv/hydraprogaming/v/69209183?t=03h59m48s

Momocon 2016 (will update after Top 8)
Ally vs Kaizo (boring, but it happened)
https://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/v/69120122?t=04h58m58s
Mr. Evs Mew2King
https://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/v/69120122?t=10h17m42s
Mr. E vs Big Lou
https://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/v/69120122?t=10h51m03s

 

[Vipermoon]

Also, Mr. E does well in these doubles matches (except when Nairo/Ally are involved).

(vs Nairo/Ally) https://youtu.be/tr6YmHYT2KU
(vs 6WX/C3PO) https://youtu.be/vlNbze76qfc
(vs Void/Gadiel) https://youtu.be/uDEyv0Xcr_8
(vs Nairo/Ally) https://youtu.be/YXTM97ZWnBI

 

[countchrisdo]

In tournament I could beat this guy's Cloud but I couldn't touch his bowser.. any critique/help/insults please? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okewxmvZamU

 

[moofpi]

I almost miss when there weren't so many good Marths to update on.
False

Spoiler

Ignition #33 WR3
vs Dom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2D4LNXSsn4

Midwest Mayhem 3
Winners Top 32
vs Shel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYYFH7KTATc

WQ
vs Ksev
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gO8cG0sPaM

Losers Top 8
vs LOE1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaJsbmzrWlg

Mr. E

Spoiler

SW Plano #84
vs iiGGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teJVcpswwN0
vs reQzee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC0HOkx6Hf4
vs LightningCam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz2mCM0N2tg
vs Cosmos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFQ2o8xOj7U
WF: vs P2P w/ Gibus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3ypzfTRkjY
GF: vs Awestin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTglJYSIGEk

Pugwest

Spoiler

S4@GU 5/31
WQ: vs Hero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBYghp8MW6o
WS: vs XL-XCVii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBJuigh27eM
WF: vs Marss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQilNbIeRfc
LF: vs XL-XCVii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvDd875IZFA

Pugwest made it to grands, but then he and Marss just goofed around with characters and stages.

 

[DariusM27]

I almost miss when there weren't so many good Marths to update on.
False

Spoiler

Ignition #33 WR3
vs Dom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2D4LNXSsn4

Midwest Mayhem 3
Winners Top 32
vs Shel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYYFH7KTATc

WQ
vs Ksev
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gO8cG0sPaM

Losers Top 8
vs LOE1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaJsbmzrWlg

Mr. E

Spoiler

SW Plano #84
vs iiGGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teJVcpswwN0
vs reQzee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC0HOkx6Hf4
vs LightningCam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz2mCM0N2tg
vs Cosmos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFQ2o8xOj7U
WF: vs P2P w/ Gibus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3ypzfTRkjY
GF: vs Awestin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTglJYSIGEk

Pugwest

Spoiler

S4@GU 5/31
WQ: vs Hero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBYghp8MW6o
WS: vs XL-XCVii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBJuigh27eM
WF: vs Marss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQilNbIeRfc
LF: vs XL-XCVii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvDd875IZFA

Pugwest made it to grands, but then he and Marss just goofed around with characters and stages.

Thanks so much for sharing. I think it's mutually beneficial to all our games to perhaps discuss some of the matches, I hope we can in upcoming months

So, what do you guys think about these Marths?

Lets have a discussion about their strengths and weaknesses? Wouldn't that be fun?

As a quick summary, I'd say, False will probably only get better. I get that impression from him, that he will push Marth really far.

Mr E seems to stuggle with consistency, but he can beat some of the best players in the world.

Pug is great, got all that MU knowledge. I think he doesn't use his mobility/speed as well as False and slightly less than Mr E.

Speaking of mobility and spacing, I think False is just on another level. His control is so unbelievably good, and that makes him unpredictable and hard to hit. I think that might give him a big edge.
Although at this point, just going by sheer experience, Mr E would probably win if they all had ditto sets.

But lately, watching False more than anyone has really helped my game and understanding of how to deal with neutral play as Marth!

Just my opinion. Thoughts?

 

[Vipermoon]

Thanks so much for sharing. I think it's mutually beneficial to all our games to perhaps discuss some of the matches, I hope we can in upcoming months

So, what do you guys think about these Marths?

Lets have a discussion about their strengths and weaknesses? Wouldn't that be fun?

As a quick summary, I'd say, False will probably only get better. I get that impression from him, that he will push Marth really far.

Mr E seems to stuggle with consistency, but he can beat some of the best players in the world.

Pug is great, got all that MU knowledge. I think he doesn't use his mobility/speed as well as False and slightly less than Mr E.

Speaking of mobility and spacing, I think False is just on another level. His control is so unbelievably good, and that makes him unpredictable and hard to hit. I think that might give him a big edge.
Although at this point, just going by sheer experience, Mr E would probably win if they all had ditto sets.

But lately, watching False more than anyone has really helped my game and understanding of how to deal with neutral play as Marth!

Just my opinion. Thoughts?

I have always been most impressed by False's Marth. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5TG3ceeIsjNLGA-USBVi8w/videos Check out this channel. I went on an entire marathon searching in their videos for False's sets. He mastered and incorporated dash dancing in his gameplay better than any Marth I've seen and his ledge traps are SO GOOD. You'll see some characters can't get up from the ledge against him at all if you watch some more of these. He spaces aerials on shield seemingly better than Pug and Mr. E in my opinion too.

Edit: also Nair out of shield looks so good, I should do it more. I previously thought it was only good against tall characters but there he is using it against the likes of Yoshi, etc.

 

[DariusM27]

I have always been most impressed by False's Marth. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5TG3ceeIsjNLGA-USBVi8w/videos Check out this channel. I went on an entire marathon searching in their videos for False's sets. He mastered and incorporated dash dancing in his gameplay better than any Marth I've seen and his ledge traps are SO GOOD. You'll see some characters can't get up from the ledge against him at all if you watch some more of these. He spaces aerials on shield seemingly better than Pug and Mr. E in my opinion too.

Edit: also Nair out of shield looks so good, I should do it more. I previously thought it was only good against tall characters but there he is using it against the likes of Yoshi, etc.

That was my observation exactly. His aerials are better, I think, because he fastfalls a frame or two sooner than most marths do, imo.

Marth's range also gets a boost by timing the fastfall so the longest part of the attack lands at the right time.

Close quarters falling air attacks are infinitely better when you aren't trying to do them with cstick set on Smash. Using that setup destroys some of Marth's inputs, but fastfalling with C stick and attacking with A can compensate for that pretty darn well, I have found.

 

[Vipermoon]

That was my observation exactly. His aerials are better, I think, because he fastfalls a frame or two sooner than most marths do, imo.

Marth's range also gets a boost by timing the fastfall so the longest part of the attack lands at the right time.

Close quarters falling air attacks are infinitely better when you aren't trying to do them with cstick set on Smash. Using that setup destroys some of Marth's inputs, but fastfalling with C stick and attacking with A can compensate for that pretty darn well, I have found.

Was that the last straw that got you to finally switch to tilt stick?

This is hilarious

 

[DariusM27]

I'm still using cstick smash, Using the A button with cstick to compensate.
That 3v3 was crazy. Marth wins? Still trying to figure out what happened.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm still using cstick smash, Using the A button with cstick to compensate.
That 3v3 was crazy. Marth wins? Still trying to figure out what happened.

Yeah the Marth team destroyed as was apparent in the video. The 3 v 1 parts of the games were so intimidating hahaha.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Wow, this place is really quiet at the moment.

I'm late to the party, but I hear Leo 3-0'd Mr R using Marth in some tournament? Does anybody have a link to the set? I want to watch and analyse his play.

On a similar note, are there any other good Marth games/sets anyone could share with me? I am craving some good Marth play to analyse. I'm kinda in a rut where I feel I am not improving as much as I want to be with Marth. A little analysis can go a long way for inspiration or highlighting places I need to improve upon.

 

[DariusM27]

Every video I post ends with this kill setup. Not to brag, but I don't think hardly any other Marth player has mastered this input as much as I have.

Not that this is saying much, I'm not winning EVO any time soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFST4t8NcaU&feature=youtu.be

 

[Vipermoon]

If anyone is confused, he is fast falling again after his Fair input cancelled his initial fastfall. Aeials in Smash 4 cancel previous fast falls.

 

[moofpi]

Hey! Thank the gods, someone periscoped Mr. E vs Zero's offstream set.
https://www.periscope.tv/TheRapture_/1OdKrbrXDpeKX

I'll edit in other Evo vods after today since there was a lot of good stuff from Pug and Mr. E. I didn't see any of False's stuff, he might have gone Marth. I hope they both keep going so I can see more Marth.

 

[DariusM27]

If anyone is confused, he is fast falling again after his Fair input cancelled his initial fastfall. Aeials in Smash 4 cancel previous fast falls.

Nair* input but yeah. It's been pretty consistent and or somewhat safe. It is most often punished by perfect shields, but if I read it, I just fall into spot dodge, shield, grab, or something besides an aerial.

 

[DariusM27]

Had to post this video because it's a video of Dabuz... comentating on matches between Leo and Mr R. LOL! So obviously it had to be posted here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSJfa3cSWpY

Edit -
Also, here's Mr E vs Marss. I noticed that Mr E did a lot of unsafe things where he had better options. A bad MU for sure, but he could have done better, tbh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXNDAd7Pxi4

Edit -
False EVO pools game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rEBiassaw4

 

[Bowserboy3]

Had to post this video because it's a video of Dabuz... comentating on matches between Leo and Mr R. LOL! So obviously it had to be posted here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSJfa3cSWpY

Edit -
Also, here's Mr E vs Marss. I noticed that Mr E did a lot of unsafe things where he had better options. A bad MU for sure, but he could have done better, tbh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXNDAd7Pxi4

Edit -
False EVO pools game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rEBiassaw4

I have only watched Mr E vs Marss so far, but remember, Marss likely has incredible experiance against Marth, considering Pugwest is his brother, doubles partner, and training partner.

Still likely a losing matchup, this video makes it look far worse under the circumstances.

 

[DariusM27]

Yeah, but Mr E made so many mistakes also. He chose unsafe and ineffective options where he could have used safe effective ones.

 

[Vipermoon]

After all this time, Mr. E still has no idea how to DI boost kick. It's like he has absolutely no interest in learning the game; it's infuriating.

 

[Bowserboy3]

To be honest, I am surprised that Mr. E was the Marth player who placed 13th. I consider False the better Marth, but he didn't even place notably at all... rip.

---

Also, I want to just leave these two videos here I found of Pugwest at EVO. Interestingly, they are against two of the top tier characters I feel Marth can compete with, or even potentially have a very slight advantage (that is of course debatable, I understand). Either way, I don't think Marth loses these matchups, but anyway...

Pugwest v El (Rosalina)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YWS4OAAwNM

Pugwest v Tweek (Cloud)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ15nLQdo6Y

What Pugwest did in this set in particular at 1:10 was quite nice. Didn't even consider this would connect, when it clearly does.

Edit: Is it EL or EI?

 

[DariusM27]

After all this time, Mr. E still has no idea how to DI boost kick. It's like he has absolutely no interest in learning the game; it's infuriating.

What's DI boost kick?

I don't see how Mr E keeps doing advancing sh nair directly into shields.

Sh nair is probably more effective and certainly safer spaced if you DI forward before the jump and DI away during the attack.

He performs well because he has a lot of experience, but his style is necessarily inconsistent by nature.

 

[DariusM27]

To be honest, I am surprised that Mr. E was the Marth player who placed 13th. I consider False the better Marth, but he didn't even place notably at all... rip.

---

Also, I want to just leave these two videos here I found of Pugwest at EVO. Interestingly, they are against two of the top tier characters I feel Marth can compete with, or even potentially have a very slight advantage (that is of course debatable, I understand). Either way, I don't think Marth loses these matchups, but anyway...

Pugwest v El (Rosalina)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YWS4OAAwNM

Pugwest v Tweek (Cloud)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ15nLQdo6Y

What Pugwest did in this set in particular at 1:10 was quite nice. Didn't even consider this would connect, when it clearly does.

Edit: Is it EL or EI?

One thing about that Tweek Cloud match, he could have jumped into those cloud dairs with a counter. Counter is really good against Cloud Dair.

Btw, anyone know who knocked Pug out?

 

[Vipermoon]

What's DI boost kick?

I don't see how Mr E keeps doing advancing sh nair directly into shields.

Sh nair is probably more effective and certainly safer spaced if you DI forward before the jump and DI away during the attack.

He performs well because he has a lot of experience, but his style is necessarily inconsistent by nature.

Boost Kick is ZSS's Uspecial. Mr.E DIs it inwards when he should be either doing down or down and away depending on the situation. And that's common knowledge, especially for players with his level of tournament experience. So anyway, that's why you see him take too high of a knockback angle and die off the top.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Boost Kick is ZSS's Uspecial. Mr.E DIs it inwards when he should be either doing down or down and away depending on the situation. And that's common knowledge, especially for players with his level of tournament experience. So anyway, that's why you see him take too high of a knockback angle and die off the top.

Does he even attempt to SDI it? That cuts the chances of being hit by it too.

I don't know what he does with Dair on Boost Kick. He used Dair to "escape" it when playing against Nairo, and also when playing against Marss. Is that what he thinks works, or does it legitimately shift Marth's hurtbox enough to get him out?

---

Also, shameless plug at one of my own videos here. Just a short clip. It's these kind of moments that remind me why I love Marth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4VOgODGsHA

 

[Vipermoon]

Does he even attempt to SDI it? That cuts the chances of being hit by it too.

I don't know what he does with Dair on Boost Kick. He used Dair to "escape" it when playing against Nairo, and also when playing against Marss. Is that what he thinks works, or does it legitimately shift Marth's hurtbox enough to get him out?

---

Also, shameless plug at one of my own videos here. Just a short clip. It's these kind of moments that remind me why I love Marth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4VOgODGsHA

Only the first hit can be SDI'd. All of the others have a 0 SDI multiplier.

He didn't use Dair to escape. He knew he already escaped and was just punishing.

 

[DariusM27]

You guys might already know this, but this is the best Marth in Japan.

"Fuwa"

Check out the spot dodge to pivot grab at the end. Freaking unreal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIp9rTlsR9c

I just saw a bunch of videos of him, and honestly it doesn't seem like he's as good as False, Mr E, or Pug. He loses a lot, but he's still very good.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wow this guy plays more like how I play compared to any Marth I've seen.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I just think it's fascinating to see a Japanese Marth. You know, Japan have been rather harsh on Marth for a while. To see a Japanese Marth, and a good one at that, is exciting.

She has a slower, more calculated approach than most other Marths I see. It's a great style to adapt if you ask me.

 

[Vipermoon]

Fuwa is a female?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Fuwa is a female?

Yeah, Fuwa is a female.

In fact, she's actually Earth's wife!

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Fuwa

 

[DariusM27]

Check out the rediculous range I got on this Nair1 fsmash confirm, lol. Watch it slow - frame by frame starting at 3:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRIvRcR4CQQ

 

[Vipermoon]

Check out the rediculous range I got on this Nair1 fsmash confirm, lol. Watch it slow - frame by frame starting at 3:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRIvRcR4CQQ

For the DS you did in the second half of the video, to land as soon as possible make sure you hold down when you start the move (this is before you can even fast fall). Marth will spend way less time up there and fall fast automatically (and then you can fast fall which seems to be even faster). Just a tip to minimize your punishes. If you want to throw someone off, do the opposite. Hold up the whole time; it'll make everything take forever.

 

[DariusM27]

For the DS you did in the second half of the video, to land as soon as possible make sure you hold down when you start the move (this is before you can even fast fall). Marth will spend way less time up there and fall fast automatically (and then you can fast fall which seems to be even faster). Just a tip to minimize your punishes. If you want to throw someone off, do the opposite. Hold up the whole time; it'll make everything take forever.

First time hearing about the - hold down as soon as you DS and fastfall - thing. Thanks!

 

[AmericanDJ]

It's been a while since I have posted here.

I'm just stopping by because I would like one of my matches critiqued.
https://youtu.be/aSDOH7GsYA8 Game 1
https://youtu.be/bPzEYzeplgk Game 2

 

[Bowserboy3]

It's been a while since I have posted here.

I'm just stopping by because I would like one of my matches critiqued.
https://youtu.be/aSDOH7GsYA8 Game 1
https://youtu.be/bPzEYzeplgk Game 2

I've only watched the first game so far, but I'll share some input.

Just be mindful of some of the options you choose. It looked like you were just using some moves for the sake of it, which while it can be somewhat effective at a range, it's not effective up close, and you were just getting punished (ie: Nair into his shield, then Dtilt, which was punished).

Another thing to be mindful of is overuse of Fsmash. There were a few times when using Fsmash was ineffective (such as when Cloud was way out of distance, or when it wouldn't have a chance of KO'ing [start of his 2nd stock]). Remember, you need to keep Fsmash as fresh as possible, especially for the moment when you land one at higher percents and you NEED it to KO.

Your approaching was kind of iffy. If anything, in the Cloud matchup, try taking it steady and making Cloud come to you. While you were approaching, you kind of approached too far (as in you got too far into Cloud's range). Try and stay just out of his range, using your lower lag pressuring options such as Jab 1, Dtilt and Utilt to bait him into counterattacking, then punish him. Your aim in this matchup isn't to get into Cloud, but to space him out. Marth spaces Cloud out much better than Cloud can do to Marth.

Try not to use Counter too much too. It's good now and again, think of it like Witch Time; save it for when you really need it/when the opponent won't expect it. Try not to use it as a "get out of jail" card. For example, instead of landing with a Counter, just try to drift away, or try landing with a Nair or Uair instead every so often. If you can net a KO off of Counter when they least expect it, you can really get into their head, as they will be worried about it happening again. But just don't overuse it; it's not a move you should use too much (perhaps no more than once every game, or once every set). If you see the opponent approaching from the ground or the air, instead of a Counter, try an Ftilt or an Utilt instead. You do have a sword with great range after all, so it will beat most attacks.

Keep at it though! Just work on that spacing and safety game and you'll automatically become much better

 

[DariusM27]

Just a simple fg match vs a not very good Ryu. It's always fun beating a Guy though. I was feeling the combos, although I did mess up a bit, I could have kept them coming

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vD1-Zd2MuDw

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just a simple fg match vs a not very good Ryu. It's always fun beating a Guy though. I was feeling the combos, although I did mess up a bit, I could have kept them coming

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vD1-Zd2MuDw

I like some of the things you were doing with Nair 1 into Jab 1 and what followed after etc. I always forget I can do things like this.

 

[DariusM27]

I like some of the things you were doing with Nair 1 into Jab 1 and what followed after etc. I always forget I can do things like this.

Thanks! At 40 seconds in I did a full hop to fastfall nair1 fastfall again. This input is really helpful to me and I have an obscure and weird control setup where I fastfall with cstick, but it can be done with analog stick too, I just have more input errors that way. Anyway, that full hop double fastfall nair1 is pretty dope.

 

[DariusM27]

This post is about Marth vs Sheik

I'm at work right now so I don't have time to post all the videos.

Mk Leo beat Mr R to reset a grandfinals game.

Today some videos were posted

I think Void beat Mr E 3 - 0

And Pugwest lost to Mr R.

Does Mk Leo have more of a 50/50 match up vs Sheik, or did he just have a fortunate set?
Is there something Leo's marth does that gives him a distinct advantage in this MU?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Does Mk Leo have more of a 50/50 match up vs Sheik, or did he just have a fortunate set?
Is there something Leo's marth does that gives him a distinct advantage in this MU?

Good question.

Personally, I would put it down to the fact that Leo is the better player.

It doesn't surprise me that Mr E lost 3-0 to VoiD; he plays a little too aggressively if you ask me. He's just asking to be bodied.

Pugwest, I can't really explain. He's playing Marth what I would consider to be a better way, which makes me believe that it is Leo who is just a better player.

I still don't think that the Marth v Sheik matchup is THAT bad. I still think Marth loses, but Leo is playing the matchup the arguably the best out of the rest of the other players.