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Help against Earthbound!

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IrisKong

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The matchup discussion is currently talking about the climber matchup and after that its ZSS, so I needed to make a new thread.

I am having difficulties against the Earthbound crew, that means Ness and Lucas... -.-
I know they are low tier bla bla but they seem to have the jump on me, especially Lucas. His Dair nair fmash combo ***** me almost everytime... I need some advice on how to counter these little B@st@rds. They absorb my AS and out camp me so im not sure what to do, any ideas?
 

Scinn

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why are you asking us lucario players about this shouldent you be on the ness and or lucas boards?

EDIT: never mind you main lucario now lol
 

Alus

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I sometimes have a bit of trouble with ness and lucas too. Their aireal mobility is causing my main problem. And I also cannot camp them out.
 

IrisKong

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Stop underestimating Ness and Lucas. They aren't low tier, they're middle tier at least.

I dont underestimate any of the characters, its all about the player. I dont even care about the tier list, but the majority of the users on this site do.

As for the spacing comment, that really isnt my problem, I know lucario wins in the air.
 

ckm

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I can't give you many tips vs lucas because i haven't played many good ones.

Ness, on the other hand, I know pretty darn well--one of my friends has a wicked ness (2-0'd fiction in pools @ BIO2).


Some tips:
-be cautious when he uses PK thunder. It can rack up tons of damage as a projectile, and when if you try to punish or gimp him you will usually eat the PKT2 and die at rediculously low percents. Don't try to gimp him unless you are REALLY close to him when he starts it up. Youre better off edgehogging (but you have to time it right or he can stage spike you).
-Dair will kill PK thunder, so if he is harrassing you with it, try to hit the head of it with a dair.
-Learn the spacing on his PK fire... you are really close he won't use it because it's laggy, but he will use it when you are in the middle range and you need to react quickly to shield/spoddodge it. I like to stay in the air a decent amount to avoid it.
-I would rate his kill moves in order from best to worst as: bthrow, bair, upair, dair, fsmash (this is taking into account reliability and practicality) When you are high percent, he will try to grab you. Don't let him get it. If this fails, he will use a lot of bair, so watch for it.
-You can spam AS when he is at low percents (<15 percent or so) without worrying about his absorber, so make sure you camp and get at least a little bit of damage (or force him to approach) when he is low.
-You do pretty well against ness in the air, but his fair will always be a pain. Just try to hit him before he can get it out, and you'll be ok. Avoid bair like its the plague, it kills really well!
-Choose Yoshi's island as a counterpick, ness players hate this stage.

I have more but I gotta run, hope that helps!
 

IrisKong

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I can't give you many tips vs lucas because i haven't played many good ones.

Ness, on the other hand, I know pretty darn well--one of my friends has a wicked ness (2-0'd fiction in pools @ BIO2).


Some tips:
-be cautious when he uses PK thunder. It can rack up tons of damage as a projectile, and when if you try to punish or gimp him you will usually eat the PKT2 and die at rediculously low percents. Don't try to gimp him unless you are REALLY close to him when he starts it up. Youre better off edgehogging (but you have to time it right or he can stage spike you).
-Dair will kill PK thunder, so if he is harrassing you with it, try to hit the head of it with a dair.
-Learn the spacing on his PK fire... you are really close he won't use it because it's laggy, but he will use it when you are in the middle range and you need to react quickly to shield/spoddodge it. I like to stay in the air a decent amount to avoid it.
-I would rate his kill moves in order from best to worst as: bthrow, bair, upair, dair, fsmash (this is taking into account reliability and practicality) When you are high percent, he will try to grab you. Don't let him get it. If this fails, he will use a lot of bair, so watch for it.
-You can spam AS when he is at low percents (<15 percent or so) without worrying about his absorber, so make sure you camp and get at least a little bit of damage (or force him to approach) when he is low.
-You do pretty well against ness in the air, but his fair will always be a pain. Just try to hit him before he can get it out, and you'll be ok. Avoid bair like its the plague, it kills really well!
-Choose Yoshi's island as a counterpick, ness players hate this stage.

I have more but I gotta run, hope that helps!

Thanks man, I think the part I need to work the most on is gimping them, I usually try and am not fast enough so I eat a electrified ness/lucas and usualy die.
 

Timbers

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Thanks man, I think the part I need to work the most on is gimping them, I usually try and am not fast enough so I eat a electrified ness/lucas and usualy die.
Unless you're like, right on top of them, I wouldn't recommend gimping.

The recovery is mad telegraphed though, so just ledgegrab right before they actually recover, they don't get the ledgesnap, they go towards the stage, and from there you can follow up with pretty much anything depending on the situation. Usually uair, dsmash, or aurasphere.

Alternatively if you're on the ledge and they shoot too low, they'll just bounce off the stage and die, which is probably better.

You really shouldn't be gimping a Lucas without him first screwing up megahard though. Lucas has an arsenal of recovery options. Ness still has good aerial control and a beastly midair coupled with a decent fair (better than ours at least lol)

This post is pretty much dedicated to what to do if the player ****s up.
 

D. Disciple

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If you really want to gimp their recovery though. You can try to determine then they will set off their pk thunder, and dair it. Your Dair takes away their pk thunder without hitting them, or you can do falling fairs, so it makes it harder for them to aim for the edge properly.
 

WakerofWinds

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Well... one useful thing we've found from our research is that charging an aura sphere (meaning you face away from ness) will stop Ness's PKT2. Keep that in mind, just, because you can.
 

Uffe

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I can't give you many tips vs lucas because i haven't played many good ones.

Ness, on the other hand, I know pretty darn well--one of my friends has a wicked ness (2-0'd fiction in pools @ BIO2).


Some tips:
-be cautious when he uses PK thunder. It can rack up tons of damage as a projectile, and when if you try to punish or gimp him you will usually eat the PKT2 and die at rediculously low percents. Don't try to gimp him unless you are REALLY close to him when he starts it up. Youre better off edgehogging (but you have to time it right or he can stage spike you).
-Dair will kill PK thunder, so if he is harrassing you with it, try to hit the head of it with a dair.
-Learn the spacing on his PK fire... you are really close he won't use it because it's laggy, but he will use it when you are in the middle range and you need to react quickly to shield/spoddodge it. I like to stay in the air a decent amount to avoid it.
-I would rate his kill moves in order from best to worst as: bthrow, bair, upair, dair, fsmash (this is taking into account reliability and practicality) When you are high percent, he will try to grab you. Don't let him get it. If this fails, he will use a lot of bair, so watch for it.
-You can spam AS when he is at low percents (<15 percent or so) without worrying about his absorber, so make sure you camp and get at least a little bit of damage (or force him to approach) when he is low.
-You do pretty well against ness in the air, but his fair will always be a pain. Just try to hit him before he can get it out, and you'll be ok. Avoid bair like its the plague, it kills really well!
-Choose Yoshi's island as a counterpick, ness players hate this stage.

I have more but I gotta run, hope that helps!
This made me lol. Especially the last part.
 

BLI7ZARD

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-dont get grabbed at high percentages(ness)
-Shield lucas's dair im sure you can block and retaliate with something if not spaced because lucas will have some ending lag.may be able to punish spaced dair?(lucas)
- punish Ness's short hop fair with dash attack
-learn his aerial lag. correct me if im wrong Ness can sh fair and cant jump anymre but can full jump his aerials twice.
IM SO SORRY WORSTE ADVICE EVER> I WILL COME BACK WITH BETTER ADVICE LOL I DONT HAVE MY WII RIGHT NOW
 

Rayku

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I think Lucario vs. Ness is either 50/50 or 55/45 in Lucario's favor.

I think Lucario vs. Lucas is 55/45 or 60/40 in Lucario's favor.

I don't know any speculations, but I think it's a really close matchup. Definitely one of Lucario's harder low-tier matchups.
 

Uffe

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the secret to beating earthbound, multirocket pokey, beat on gygas a bit, than pray a bunch. game set match.
I love you. :laugh:

@ Rayku: I can't remember what the ratio is, but I do know it's really close. I remember fighting Dawei a bunch of times. That changed my mind about the match up.
 

Kitamerby

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-dont get grabbed at high percentages(ness)
-Shield lucas's dair im sure you can block and retaliate with something if not spaced because lucas will have some ending lag.may be able to punish spaced dair?(lucas)
- punish Ness's short hop fair with dash attack
-learn his aerial lag. correct me if im wrong Ness can sh fair and cant jump anymre but can full jump his aerials twice.
IM SO SORRY WORSTE ADVICE EVER> I WILL COME BACK WITH BETTER ADVICE LOL I DONT HAVE MY WII RIGHT NOW
You're wrong.
the secret to beating earthbound, multirocket pokey, beat on gygas a bit, than pray a bunch. game set match.
You're right.


ckm is right too.


Also, I'd like to add that you should spam BAS at Ness until he starts magneting. The Magnet is slow to come out and unreliable usually, so they'll always try to get past it first, and usually fail. Once the magnet pops out, just stop spamming. Start up again later on when they put it down. You'll almost always tack on more damage with a few shots than they can absorb back in one BAS.

Fully Charged shots are REAAAAAALLY risky.

Also, for some odd reason, I love utilt in this matchup and use it alot. I'm not sure if there's any actual reason for utilt to be used too much in the matchup, but it seems to make my life easier for some reason. This utilt thing may not work out for you though. Try it if nothing else works, I guess.

Also, if you haven't tried it, try Fsmashing him if he PKT2's and misses the ledge by going too high/tries to PKT2 at a downwards angle towards the ledge. It's fun and makes them go wtf. You'll rarely get the chance, but it's still fun. Also fsmash if you can predict a DJFair to carry him onstage.
 

hichez50

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I think Lucario vs. Ness is either 50/50 or 55/45 in Lucario's favor.

I think Lucario vs. Lucas is 55/45 or 60/40 in Lucario's favor.

I don't know any speculations, but I think it's a really close matchup. Definitely one of Lucario's harder low-tier matchups.
Like you told me dont use baby AS. That helps a lot. Also I would think that lucas would be 50/50 or 55/45 also because his smash can destory lucario even though they are a bit slow. They can punish rolls and side steps. Also lucario is not gifted with a super fast side step.
 

Rayku

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Like you told me dont use baby AS. That helps a lot. Also I would think that lucas would be 50/50 or 55/45 also because his smash can destory lucario even though they are a bit slow. They can punish rolls and side steps. Also lucario is not gifted with a super fast side step.
hichez what's up with your sig? Has it always been that?
 

The_Bear735

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Mother boys are extremely easy to gimp when you know what you're doing. All they really have is PKF spacing, and that's all related to whether you can outspace and mindgame Lucas. PKF isn't that hard to get around unless you can't mindgame into close range, because Lucas at close range is "lol". Ness... well Ness is just **** bait. His PKF spacing is just horribly predictable, and the only advantage he has over Lucario is easily spiking out of Bup. Otherwise, he's just a ragdoll for attacks.

Lucas is a different story though. You have to worry about his Bair, because if you aren't prepared to recover around his Bair's spike range, a good Lucas will take advantage of that and abuse it. This isn't just for Lucario; this applies for any character. PKT isn't too much to worry about, but you should always be ready to spot dodge out of most of it's hitbox. If you get hit by the tail, you'll get little knockback, but the head is what could potentially edge guard you. Lucas's smashes can **** Lucario too. Fsmash is unchristianly fast and strong, while Dsmash is generally evil when it comes to edge guarding and spot dodge punishing. As for Usmash, you'll rarely see it unless the player is very adept. Usmash is a great surprise move that Lucas will use to edge guard because the hitbox can hit you on a stage like FD and stage spike. It's not terribly common to see, but it is a pocket surprise move that you should anticipate at high levels of play. Also, if Lucas is approaching, the rare occasion that it is, shield grab or just shield the living piss out of him. Lucas's approaches are terrible, and unless you think he might try to do a Dash to pivot grab, you should always shield him. His SH approaches are laughable and deliciously punishable. SG to Uthrow to SH Fair to Nair is a personal favorite to pull off on Lucas. Lucases almost never approach though, so don't shield crazy unless you are power shield approaching his PKF spacing.

Gimping Lucas is probably the most important idea here, because Lucario can just toss him around in the air. SG/Dash Grab/hell even a pivot grab to Fthrow to Fair is something you aim for if you want to gimp Lucas, especially if he is near the ledge of a stage. If you can, footstool his second jump. All his height comes from his second jump (as does Ness's), so if you footstool him out of his momentum, you can hog the ledge and likely stop him from making it back. Plus, regular BAS gimps (don't rely on these) and Bair are useful in this matchup. Oh, and it's worth mentioning that you could feasibly pull off a DT approach if he is getting predictable with his PKF spacing. It's very risky, as anything with DT is, but it would be great for surprise KOs.


All in all, I'd call it 65-35 adv. Lucario with Ness, and 60-40 adv. Lucario with Lucas. Work it out, the Mother boys aren't that difficult, even at high levels of play. GL son.




edit: lol apparently I've been underestimating Ness, but I don't usually have trouble with him unless I'm having an off day or something.
 

ckm

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Mother boys are extremely easy to gimp when you know what you're doing. All they really have is PKF spacing, and that's all related to whether you can outspace and mindgame Lucas. PKF isn't that hard to get around unless you can't mindgame into close range, because Lucas at close range is "lol". Ness... well Ness is just **** bait. His PKF spacing is just horribly predictable, and the only advantage he has over Lucario is easily spiking out of Bup. Otherwise, he's just a ragdoll for attacks.

Lucas is a different story though. You have to worry about his Bair, because if you aren't prepared to recover around his Bair's spike range, a good Lucas will take advantage of that and abuse it. This isn't just for Lucario; this applies for any character. PKT isn't too much to worry about, but you should always be ready to spot dodge out of most of it's hitbox. If you get hit by the tail, you'll get little knockback, but the head is what could potentially edge guard you. Lucas's smashes can **** Lucario too. Fsmash is unchristianly fast and strong, while Dsmash is generally evil when it comes to edge guarding and spot dodge punishing. As for Usmash, you'll rarely see it unless the player is very adept. Usmash is a great surprise move that Lucas will use to edge guard because the hitbox can hit you on a stage like FD and stage spike. It's not terribly common to see, but it is a pocket surprise move that you should anticipate at high levels of play. Also, if Lucas is approaching, the rare occasion that it is, shield grab or just shield the living piss out of him. Lucas's approaches are terrible, and unless you think he might try to do a Dash to pivot grab, you should always shield him. His SH approaches are laughable and deliciously punishable. SG to Uthrow to SH Fair to Nair is a personal favorite to pull off on Lucas. Lucases almost never approach though, so don't shield crazy unless you are power shield approaching his PKF spacing.

Gimping Lucas is probably the most important idea here, because Lucario can just toss him around in the air. SG/Dash Grab/hell even a pivot grab to Fthrow to Fair is something you aim for if you want to gimp Lucas, especially if he is near the ledge of a stage. If you can, footstool his second jump. All his height comes from his second jump (as does Ness's), so if you footstool him out of his momentum, you can hog the ledge and likely stop him from making it back. Plus, regular BAS gimps (don't rely on these) and Bair are useful in this matchup. Oh, and it's worth mentioning that you could feasibly pull off a DT approach if he is getting predictable with his PKF spacing. It's very risky, as anything with DT is, but it would be great for surprise KOs.


All in all, I'd call it 65-35 adv. Lucario with Ness, and 60-40 adv. Lucario with Lucas. Work it out, the Mother boys aren't that difficult, even at high levels of play. GL son.




edit: lol apparently I've been underestimating Ness, but I don't usually have trouble with him unless I'm having an off day or something.
you live in nevada and you think its 65/35 for lucario vs ness? play fow sometime and then try to convince me.
 

ckm

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Can Lucario grab release Ness/Lucas to dash regrab like Peach can?
I don't think so, praxis.. lucario's dash is pretty sad. Come to think of it though, I haven't actually tried. I'll test it out the next time I play dog latin. I do know that we can't release to any attacks that I've found, because ness seems to release too far for jabs and everything else is too slow.
 

The_Bear735

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ckm you need to die for bumping this thread


and fow is **** because most people probably don't know the ness matchup for their char well. not saying I could be him but I did use ness forever ago, so I'd stand a chance. And more importantly, I hope you're not serious about "one person = new matchup".



oh and I live in reno, he's in vegas. get *****
 

ckm

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im pretty sure he'd 2 stock you with ease.

and I can think of at least one other ness that would probably **** your ****, he lives in my state.

reno is pretty close to vegas, relatively anyway. I know the ness matchup really well, and trust me... its a pretty even matchup.
 

ckm

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oh and fow is not only good due to ppl not knowing the matchup. he is actually really good.. i played with him and all the pros from EVO, and he is legit.
 
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