Today's a beautiful day- I don't get to reply to just one essay-length post, not two, but THREE...at the same time!
Dragz, you first.
I think you're still missing the point. Yes, Heavy Brawl does change the gameplay focus. That was the entire point. We're trying to shift focus away from camping and towards a balance between offense and defense. Regular Brawl is heavily defensive based. Heavy Brawl is very balanced in terms of gameplay.
Camping is such a big deal you have to change the entire way the game is played to get around it?
This is a fighter game, where advanced hidden techs and glitches are BOTH abused. Why? Because people play to win. If there is anything that is garunteed a victory, then the player should have the right to use it. If you find a strategy that is 99% amazing, then you should learn to exploit it's 1% flaw. This means you've found it's counterstrategy, and soon they'll counter your counter and so on. This is half the competitive battle. You do not change the playing style of an entire game to avoid a strategy- you learn to beat it. There are ways around camping. I have fought several Pit campers- with Ike- and easily came out victorious (don't you just love that R button?) simply because I found a way around their strategy. If your opponent uses rock, you stop using scissors and use paper. Everything has a flaw, you just need to learn how to exploit it. Is this combat very defensive based? Yes, without a doubt, and that's because that's what Brawl is- a defensive game. It's like Chess- you don't change the rules to get past the 4-move checkmate, you just move your pawn.
Technically regular Brawl is competitive, yes. But it's competitive in the sense that one person will eventually outcamp the other. That's technically competitive, it's also technically boring as hell. Heavy Brawl, on the other hand, promotes both approaching and defending properly. The extra falling speed makes it so that you must time all of your attacks and techniques, defensive or otherwise, to be effective, thus a punishment game actually exists. If there is no punishment game, we just have long strings of guessing games, and that's just a boring tug-of-war no one wants to endure.
I won't respond for it's heavy base in opinion, although I do see your point. Punishment is downplayed in this game- both risk and reward are set down to smaller scales, however I believe this ability to make mistakes simply makes things more interesting. It's not a game of who makes the first mistake anymore- you have to MAKE them screw up... a lot.
Regular Brawl reminds me of a Korean variation of rock paper scissors called "Mook Chi Pah". Basically, both players shoot either rock, paper, or scissors. The person who has the advantage after shooting can then call the next thing he does as he changes, upon which the person at the disadvantage must also change. The point of the game is for the person in the advantage to try to get the person in the disadvantage to switch to the same symbol you're making.
Here's an example:
Shoot 1: Player 1 gets rock, Player 2 gets paper. Player 2 is at the advantage.
Shoot 2: Player 2 attempts a juke and shoots paper. Player 1, scared stays rock. Player 2 advantage.
Shoot 3: Player 2 shoots scissors. Player 1 stays rock. Player 1 advantage.
Shoot 4: Player 1 shoot rock. Player 2 also shot rock. Player 1 has won.
This is what combos in regular Brawl look like. It's a string of guessing games, and it's not worth for an approacher to put himself in this position when he can just camp and give himself an advantage for doing so.
Once again, your point is true only when refering to combos. This game was made to pretty much be the anti-combo. It was designed so combo's weren't possible. However, even the most basic fighting games have much more complex mindgames than the one you're referencing (although I appreciate your basic example for being easy to understand, it's not an accurate representation of any fighting game.) There's this thing many pros call prediction- and it's highly important. Let's say we fight. You go, use all the advanced techs you have, and get me down to one stock. Well now I've seen your playing style. I can tell if you're more likely to dash, or to jump, to fire your blaster or to roll over to me. Well I've seen you usually start with a dash, jump, and then dair. So when you begin to dash I don't use counter- instead I wait until just after you jump, use counter, and strike you back. Well now you're beginning to realize I've caught on, so instead you decide to attack BEFORE you jump. I don't counter, I get hit. This is not mere guessing, we're now basing our actions on the actions before us.
I don't know what you're talking about with Jigglypuff. I SUCKED with Jigglypuff in regular Brawl and now I rock extremely hard with her in Heavy Brawl (I have considered making her a secondary). Her wall of pain is now very difficult to get past, and you can literally wall of pain a character off of the stage and keep him there and still have enough puffs and pounds for recovery. Jigglypuff is amazing.
I don't actually play Jiggly- brother does. However her horizontal flexibility, as well as her arial reach would be significantly nerfed due to fast fall- she wouldn't be able to recover as well.
I don't know much about Luigi, but what's the matter with landing with him? Luigi's aerials seems to have very low landing lag to begin with, so I think it's acceptable to do two or three hits, fast fall, then jump again for more hits. Heavy Brawl certainly makes it fast enough for this to work.
Because he's built on that floatiness. There are several combos that simply aren't made possible as a result of faster falling. This faster falling takes away from that. Furthermore, he depends on his enemies floatiness in this game just as much as his own because he's not a particularly fast or strong character. It's harder for him to knock his enemies back up in the air once they've hit the ground- because you've lost your advantage. Luigi gets less hits in the air- his battleground- and they get more time on the ground, weakening the advantage you tried so hard to get.
Also, I don't think you have any idea whatsoever about why items and certain stages were banned.
Items are random. No matter how you put it, no matter how impartial the item itself may be, they spawn randomly. Random elements detract from competitive play. Thus, items were turned off.
That's reward based on position- unfariness.
Stage banning was done for more complex reasons. Hyrule Temple was banned because it was large enough to promote hit-and-run tactics while keeping onself alive through teching in the "Cave of Immortality". All walk-off stages were banned because camping allowed a good backthrow to cost a stock. Some stages were just plain too dangerous to play on because of all the hazards strewn everywhere.
HTemple was banned because Fox had an unfair advantage- you could shoot a single blaster shot and run around the stage, waiting for time to run out. Walk off stages were banned for backthrow because it gave throwing characters an unfair advantage. Which is what I was saying before- fairness matters.
Heavy Brawl nerfs everyone while buffing everyone (each to different degrees). It doesn't make anyone any more cheap or any less cheap, rather it takes away recovery options, which were already godly in this game anyway, and provides more offensive options, which this game sorely needed. Heavy Brawl is not random, it promotes a balance of offense and defense, it discourages hardcore camping, and it has nothing to do with random stage hazards.
I do see where you're coming from, however Heavy Brawl hasn't been experimented to it's fullest- even Regular Brawl hasn't, so there's no way we can tell what this will do to balance at all.
Now for JugaBro.
Not bad. Using one of the ONLY example for projective vr projective as a justification for mindgames. Not saying that this isn't a mindgame, but it's not so easy for every single character. Mabey your just saying that to show that not everything is so simple (well, you are showing that), but trying to use this wont change the facts. Using a single situation, Lucas vr Iceclimbers wont change the facts. For example, lets say the iceclimbers can do that to Lucas, a great mindgame. Who else can? Another projective spammer? Pit, mabey? Are you saying that we should leave it to certain characters to fight these spammers, letting others die? Even things like Pits shield and the iceclimbers tactic aren't foolproof. I do understand why you are saying that things aren't so simple, but in many cases they are, some things, such as Toon Link spamming bombs/boomerang/arrows cant be stopped by a majority of characters.
By no means, I simply pointed out the flaw in his example. A character like Ike could jump into the PK Fire and use Counter, any character could jump and simply airdodge the predicted usmash, Kirby could jump, jump again to dodge the Usmash, Pikachu could thunderhop, etc.,
Changes the focus of the game? You mean from projectile spamming, and hit and run, to comboing and true mindgames? You mean from spamming so you can smash attack for a one hit kill, instead of actually being able to edgeguard in this game? I think I'd rather like the focus changed this way, wouldn't you?
It puts more focus on the edge and comboing than mindgaming and racking up damage for a garunteed KO's which I don't agree with. Of course it'll have it's positives, but I'm playing Brawl for the mindgaming and for the damage racking, if I wanted edge-focus and comboing I could always go back to Melee. Of course, your point is valid and you do have a right to be concerned, but it's a matter of taste really. My entire game has always been on mindgaming- even in Melee I beat some of the most tech abusive Marth's and Fox's there were with Roy and Luigi, without the use of advanced techs simply because of the superior mindgame I played.
Yes, some of the tactics used in normal Brawl may not become perfectly valid when used in heavy. Of course, the type your talking about is one type, which deals with KO'ing with edgeguarding. So you cant stay down below a stage and spike them, losing your opportunity to edgeguard them? NO. Dont you understand that Heavy Brawl helps make edgeguarding a more viable and usefull choice? And how many times have you actually had to edgeguard in normal brawl, where almost everyone can recover perfectly? How many times would someone get caught in the same tactic with Jiggly, anyway? That's just another tactic changed, but the actuality of edgeguarding is still there. Dont get me started on Luigi, I main Luigi. I'm not a professional Brawl Luigi player, but I know that he is good in the air. That is a fact, and you realize that. Realy- how many times do you spam the same move in the air with Luigi before landing, anyway? I usualy do one short hopped ariel at a time. What kind of tactic revolves around jumping and doing a fair or bair 4 times in a row while in the air, and actually hitting them every time? I would want a video of this tactic, because as far as I can tell, Luigi users dont play this way, at least checking their forums often. And also, just because he was built a certain way does not advocate spamming a move in the air 4 times in a row. I rather like Luigi in heavy.
You misinterpereted my point.
Jiggly has lost the effectiveness of a tactic. This is now a hamper on anyone who might use this. Would the same person get caught in it more than once? Probably not, that's where mindgaming comes in, however the point was that some characters lose out in some ways.
As for Luigi, I'm by no means an idiot. Nobody's going to simply bair five times in a row, however there are many arial combos he can pull off- most of his game is arial. dsmash, uair, fair, double jump, dair, grab, throw, dair again, edge guard. This is a combo I occasionally use. Notice that most of it's in the air. This is for a reason- Luigi can pull off many consecutive hits in the air, and his floatiness attributes to that. Does that mean he can't fight on the ground? No. But he has an advantage over many others in the air for his superior air tech- his fair has great priority for example, and good knockback.
I got slightly confused by the message of the person you were refuting, and your message back, since they didn't seem to mix (he didn't seem to be advocating the fact that something in the game should be used, he was talking about things in there should be taken out, wasn't he? You were technically stating the same thing he was. that things like smash balls are not needed because they take no mental power/ thought to use and cause damage? Mabey I'm confused, please correct me if I am and how so.)
I was a bit confused while typing it, so I'm sure I probably agreed with him in some way.
And now for Nit.
Exaggeration my butt. A casual player does care about mindgames whether they know it or not. The only time this is null is when a person who just picked up the game, a person who is underaged, or person ushered into the game is playing. If you didn't want the statement picked, why bring it up at all. You could have easily said Mindgames are everything to a competitive player without bringing casual up at all. Sorry, but that's how it is done.
A casual player will not care about mindgames nearly as much as a competitive. Not consciously- since they probably won't know they exist. However, if you'd like to be word-picky about it I'll give this to you- it's not a vital point.
Back to RPS for a second there. RPS, played enough times against the same person, is easy to find out their routine. This applies to brawl and a person's stock. You'll know how their going to counter, and you know how their going to do it. This kills off any strategies you had. The other attacks that could be sprung upon you at anytime are now identified other than being cloaked in shadow.
Each attack has a set up and any tourny prone person should know this. This actually pushes the game behind RPS in terms of strategy somewhat. You know what they are going to do before hand simply because of the setup. You will already have the counter set up. Atleast in RPS you don't have any idea what's going on until you've learned the strategy.
What I'm trying to say here is it can begin as a mindgame and will deteriorate into RPS. Thank you very much
Prediction is what seperates a mindgame from a guessing game. Thing is, a good player will know you've caught onto their strategy and change it, throwing you off guard. You now have to change your counter strategy and so on. Some moves do have setups, but there are places where you can pull off more than one move, and you should utilize that. Pull off an unfavorable move to throw them off, shield instead of attack, and so on. There are a dozen things you could do to mix things up- nothing is so set in stone as everyone seems to think.
This is simple if you have played Ice Climbers against Lucas. Lucas's PK Fire spouts off in a diagonal direction when it hits. It'll collide with the first ice cube and push the second ice cube back to the Ice Climbers. I thought this was obvious and a mistake on my part so atleast you have pointed it out.
Since this is pointed out, it now leaves the rest of your arguement to fall below the blast line. Ice Climbers can not start their offensive since the so called Ice shot did not work. The only thing it did was push Lucas back cause of PK Fire. My view on the situation was limiting because there are only a limited number of ways to approach in this sort of situation.
Short-hopped blizzard will disrupt Lucas's PK fire stream, in turn. You get hit with PK fire and pushed back. Stale Mate. Lucas PK fires, IC blizzard again. Lucas uses PSI magnet and pops it, resulting in health healed and IC pushed back. IC loss. The only real approach is the squal which again can be PK fired. I dunno if it disrupts.
If he's spamming PK Fire, I don't see why you can't spam PK Blizzard. The second he uses his PSI Magnet is the second you can begin your offensive- the wall of fire no longer there.
Please explain to me when the first scenario will be present. Ike's recovery is rather easy to push back far enough into an unfavorable position with Jigglypuff able to recover from it, heavy or non heavy. Only position I could imagine is Jiggly far diagonally away from the stage in which heavy brawl would drag her down as well. The better question is who would push Ike (Who would be in the same position if the first scenario were to happen.) further away?
Luigi, I can't discuss him since I don't use him at all. From a floaty perspective, this holds true. Agreed.
The first scenario probably wouldn't be used on Ike- probably someone like Pit instead. Ike was just my example as I tend to use him =P
You tell me. I'm talking about both since in your post it came off as so, talking about the way the game came. My argument is not based since it was in, it should be used competitively. Let's take this current arguement though. Unfair advantages. Tell me this, since everyone is floaty, what advantages does it bring to Luigi. In turn, what disadvantages does it bring to Ice Climbers (who are not known for their air game). Since the floaty brawl brings unfair advantages to certain characters, what shall we do?
Falling on this arguement actually makes me sad on the inside ._. Cause it leaves much to be desired. The person above my explained things better than I at the moment.
And much like the person above me ._. I'm confused with this statement as well... Please clarify.
The game was balanced with Ice Climbers in mind =P
I don't really remember what I was attacking, however I believe you were mentioning putting items and smash balls on to make a point I didn't catch onto. My apologies, ignore my stupidity.
I should've just wrote a book, would've saved me time on this post =P
