Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[Nitoheilapine]

Well, not to fox, but its pretty simple to Wolf. So yes, yes I can. Perfect shielding is really easy in Brawl.


Also, wow @ like 15 of you attacking little ol' me

-whines- Sorry ><! I didn't mean to attack. I'm sorry. I was just explaining... My bad.

((Crap double post.))

 

[DRaGZ]

HyperTheHedgehog: I personally wasn't trying to attack you. I think you're bringing up reasonable points and I was just trying to respond. If you felt that way, I'm sorry.

Ferith, you bring up very valid points, and I commend you for them.

I will say this though:

Mindgames exist in regular Brawl, yes. But it's based on doing multiple guesses in a row. Statistically, that has to lead to both players receiving about the same amount of damage. This was a trend I've been seeing in regular Brawl for quite some time now. Of course, it then comes down to who KOs the best, but why should that be the factor? Why shouldn't punishment for making a mistake also be a factor?

If this game is a string of guessing games, it's simply far too forgiving for there to be much depth. Punishing combos makes it so that your guesses are far more precious, and that puts far more emphasis on the importance of mindgames. If mindgames are done over and over, and your opponent figures it out, it's far too easy to just change what you're doing.

If a game consisted of a few select mindgame battles, then it would determine who truly was the better predictor because the winner was able to manipulate the opponent properly. There's no time to just change up what you're doing after you've been punished a few times because it's too late. This forces players to switch up their strategies faaaar more often, and this requires far better strategy and far better tactical coordination than a battle of guessing games.

Also, camping in Regular Brawl doesn't use mindgames. At all. I can literally have a conversation with a person and effectively camp when I'm playing Toon Link. Mindgames requires concentration, camping in regular Brawl does not.

 

[paper_crane]

I wasn't aware you could camp while rushing at someone.

I think it's pretty clear that you are no longer "rushing" when you are forced to stop in your tracks to block or dodge a projectile or sixteen. It is extremely unlikely that you will take no damage as you approach a good camper, especially if the opponent's character can have three or even four projectiles flying about at the same time, controlling most of the stage from the other side of the screen. Even if you make it past the projectile barrage unscathed, the defender is STILL at an advantage because shield counters are so effective compared to whatever approach options you may have.

The only way to avoid this kind of situation is to be the better camper.

 

[Ferith]

I believe the concern of camping is valid, however with the game only having been out for two months there's no real way of saying it's unbeatable. The concern makes sense, as does the desire to effectively stop it, however cheap tactics like this are why videogames are fun- beating them is that much more pleasurable.

I recommend Sirlin's Playing To Win article, to help you understand my point. This is the first part of five- not including his book on the subejct.

Edit: Dragz, you make a valid point on your analysis of Brawl's mindgames, however I do still feel that very mindgame based players can still take advantage of the system and still have an advantage- mindgames are more than guessing.

 

[GenericKen]

I don't want to play Melee. I want to play Brawl. Competitive Brawl.

Hey OP (I think yuo were OP):

Do you think it'd be prudent to edit the original post with a quick FAQ for this sort of thing?

It seems like half the disenting voices in here haven't read any of the thread. In their defense, the thread's 26 pages long, and the original post is about 5 pages.


You know, for example:


Q: If you hate brawl so much, why don't you go play melee?
A: I love brawl, and want it to succeed competitively. I dont' think it will.

Q: Why not?
A: It's too defensive in nature. While it may be balanced, it's very boring to watch, and may be too slow to play out matches in practical tournament settings.

Q: Can't you just beat up on campers? I don't seem to have any problems with pit/rob/snake.
A: Projectile spaming != camping. For every offensive approach, there are two defensive options, each of which is usually faster, and can punish the offense more than the offense can punish the defense (Ed. Which I don't personally agree with). The best play is almost always defensive, and if both players are defensive, matches might never end:
*video evidence*

etc. etc.



Something brief and diplomatic at the top, in hopes of elevating the discussion in here.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

Seriously..The only thing I believe this heavy Brawl type deal is gonna be doing is making other characters benfit more from it than others.Yeah it does stop distance attacking but at the same time,characters that can haul @$$ are just gonna be next in line.If you guys are gonna have fun picking 4 guys,go right ahead.Same thing happened with all the top speed dudes in Melee.

 

[DRaGZ]

Ferith: I've read that article before. It only supports what I am saying.

The "scrubs" he's talking about are the people who are claiming that camping isn't necessary to win or that camping can be easily countered. That simply isn't true.

When you're in a competition, just like the article said, you're going to do anything you can do to win within the constraints of the system you're inside. This system not only allows camping, it favors camping. Hence, the best players are going to be the best campers.

In Heavy Brawl, campers no longer have an indisputable advantage. You must do other things besides just camping to win. It's more interesting, no? The constraints of the game have been modified and many more things can happen beyond campfests.

 

[Nitoheilapine]

I believe the concern of camping is valid, however with the game only having been out for two months there's no real way of saying it's unbeatable. The concern makes sense, as does the desire to effectively stop it, however cheap tactics like this are why videogames are fun- beating them is that much more pleasurable.

I recommend Sirlin's Playing To Win article, to help you understand my point. This is the first part of five- not including his book on the subejct.

Edit: Dragz, you make a valid point on your analysis of Brawl's mindgames, however I do still feel that very mindgame based players can still take advantage of the system and still have an advantage- mindgames are more than guessing.

He has a book on this topic? Kind of scary to think what's out there other than Manga and Harry Potter...

 

[DRaGZ]

Hey OP (I think yuo were OP):

Do you think it'd be prudent to edit the original post with a quick FAQ for this sort of thing?

It seems like half the disenting voices in here haven't read any of the thread. In their defense, the thread's 26 pages long, and the original post is about 5 pages.


You know, for example:


Q: If you hate brawl so much, why don't you go play melee?
A: I love brawl, and want it to succeed competitively. I dont' think it will.

Q: Why not?
A: It's too defensive in nature. While it may be balanced, it's very boring to watch, and may be too slow to play out matches in practical tournament settings.

Q: Can't you just beat up on campers? I don't seem to have any problems with pit/rob/snake.
A: Projectile spaming != camping. For every offensive approach, there are two defensive options, each of which is usually faster, and can punish the offense more than the offense can punish the defense (Ed. Which I don't personally agree with). The best play is almost always defensive, and if both players are defensive, matches might never end:
*video evidence*

etc. etc.



Something brief and diplomatic at the top, in hopes of elevating the discussion in here.

I think this is a good idea...I'll work on a tl;dr version to put in later. I'm too tired right now.

 

[Ferith]

Dragz, I edited my post in response to yours (you posted while I was typing). However, here's a quote from the article which I was getting at.

The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.

The overpowering tactic here is camping. The best players will be the best campers until someone finds a counter to it and so on. It only seems like such a good tactic now because we've had such little time with the game.

 

[M.K]

Instead of mindgames, why don't we just invent heartgames or lunggames. That way, if you get LUNGGAMED, you can't complain, because you'll be dead.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

I think it's pretty clear that you are no longer "rushing" when you are forced to stop in your tracks to block or dodge a projectile or sixteen. It is extremely unlikely that you will take no damage as you approach a good camper, especially if the opponent's character can have three or even four projectiles flying about at the same time, controlling most of the stage from the other side of the screen. Even if you make it past the projectile barrage unscathed, the defender is STILL at an advantage because shield counters are so effective compared to whatever approach options you may have.

The only way to avoid this kind of situation is to be the better camper.

But when you two are at close range isn't it more about the better player? Its not like theres some end all thing you can always do out of shield.






Hmmm... Im pretty sure I failed to explain myself well.

 

[DRaGZ]

Seriously..The only thing I believe this heavy Brawl type deal is gonna be doing is making other characters benfit more from it than others.Yeah it does stop distance attacking but at the same time,characters that can haul @$$ are just gonna be next in line.If you guys are gonna have fun picking 4 guys,go right ahead.Same thing happened with all the top speed dudes in Melee.

Try it before you knock it. You probably haven't even tried it, so you probably don't even know how characters have been buffed/nerfed.

I mean, R.O.B. and Snake aren't speedy characters, but, imo, they are amongst the best characters in the game, Heavy Brawl or regular Brawl. This isn't Melee.

 

[Nitoheilapine]

Instead of mindgames, why don't we just invent heartgames or lunggames. That way, if you get LUNGGAMED, you can't complain, because you'll be dead.

I see what you did there >->

Heartgames can only be played in team matches by lovey-dovey couples who will make babies on the spot if they win...

Lunggames make so your tournament money goes to pay for the funeral ._.

/feed

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Lmfao @ all the scrubs. If you don't like what we're doing to Brawl, go make your own ****ing board and play with your items and stupid stages over there. No one is forcing you to be a member here, or play by our rules. Go make your own forum, and go run your own tournaments. That way, everyone is happy and we don't have to read your whiney *** posts anymore.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Oh! 1 more thing. How exactly does falling faster remedy camping? The first post talked a little about it,but it sounded like a very specific example to me.

 

[DRaGZ]

Dragz, I edited my post in response to yours (you posted while I was typing). However, here's a quote from the article which I was getting at.



The overpowering tactic here is camping. The best players will be the best campers until someone finds a counter to it and so on. It only seems like such a good tactic now because we've had such little time with the game.

Let me quote from the article as well:

I've talked about how the expert player is not bound by rules of "honor" or "cheapness" and simply plays to maximize his chances of winning. When he plays against other such players, "game theory" emerges. If the game is a good one, it will become deeper and deeper and more strategic. Poorly designed games will become shallower and shallower. This is the difference between an arcade game that lasts years in an arcade versus one that lasts 4 months. This is the difference between a PC game that lasts years on the shelves (Starcraft) versus one that quickly becomes boring (I won't name any names). The point is that if a game becomes "no fun" at high levels of play, then it's the game's fault, not the player's. Unfortunately, a game becoming less fun because it's poorly designed and you just losing because you're a scrub kind of look alike. You'll have to play some top players and do some soul searching to decide which is which. But if it really is the game's fault, there are plenty of other games that are excellent at a high level of play. For games that truly aren't good at a high level, the only winning move is not to play.

This is exactly what people are already saying about Brawl. People believe it is shallow, and the top pros from Melee that tried to get into Brawl are abandoning it. These pros know what they're talking about, they know what makes a Smash game deep, and Brawl apparently has none of those things. Camping is the largest symptom of this, but there are others: the inability to follow-up, the near non-existant edgegame, unbalanced offensive/defensive options, etc.

I truly appreciate your opinion, I do. In all honesty, I hope you are right. I really do. But, realistically, I don't see camping going away.

 

[Nitoheilapine]

Lmfao @ all the scrubs. If you don't like what we're doing to Brawl, go make your own ****ing board and play with your items and stupid stages over there. No one is forcing you to be a member here, or play by our rules. Go make your own forum, and go run your own tournaments. That way, everyone is happy and we don't have to read your whiney *** posts anymore.

? Easy. I'm only 15 ._. I rather go to another person's tournament... I can't run my own tournament. Unable to make my own board too... I can stick with normal brawl I guess, but I do like heavy brawl as an alternative.

No need to be mean

 

[DRaGZ]

Oh! 1 more thing. How exactly does falling faster remedy camping? The first post talked a little about it,but it sounded like a very specific example to me.

Fastfalling simply makes approaching faster. Remember SHFFLing in Melee? Well, we no longer have the L part, but in regular Brawl the FF part doesn't even work because fastfalling is still really slow. Fastfalling is obviously faster in Heavy Brawl, thus approaches are faster as well. It's the same concept as in Melee, except that you can't l-cancel it thus it becomes very important to actually land the hit properly.

Try it out by short-hop fastfalling DeDeDe's nair as an approach in Heavy Brawl, which has very little landing lag, btw. You'll be amazed at how effective it is. Then try it regular Brawl, and you'll realize what I mean.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Let me quote from the article as well:



This is exactly what people are already saying about Brawl. People believe it is shallow, and the top pros from Melee that tried to get into Brawl are abandoning it. These pros know what they're talking about, they know what makes a Smash game deep, and Brawl apparently has none of those things. Camping is the largest symptom of this, but there are others: the inability to follow-up, the near non-existant edgegame, unbalanced offensive/defensive options, etc.

I truly appreciate your opinion, I do. In all honesty, I hope you are right. I really do. But, realistically, I don't see camping going away.

Who are all these pros abandoning Brawl, besides M2K?

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

Try it before you knock it. You probably haven't even tried it, so you probably don't even know how characters have been buffed/nerfed.

I mean, R.O.B. and Snake aren't speedy characters, but, imo, they are amongst the best characters in the game, Heavy Brawl or regular Brawl. This isn't Melee.

Never said this was Melee and Iam gald you realize that fact,but what I was hinting at is the fact this is gonna be running around in circles once again.Camping=Brawl ??????(a.k.a something else)=Heavy Brawl

Lmfao @ all the scrubs. If you don't like what we're doing to Brawl, go make your own ****ing board and play with your items and stupid stages over there. No one is forcing you to be a member here, or play by our rules. Go make your own forum, and go run your own tournaments. That way, everyone is happy and we don't have to read your whiney *** posts anymore.

Iam online right now,wanna back that statment up?Or you gonna find some other 1990s style post for an excuse?

 

[DRaGZ]

Lmfao @ all the scrubs. If you don't like what we're doing to Brawl, go make your own ****ing board and play with your items and stupid stages over there. No one is forcing you to be a member here, or play by our rules. Go make your own forum, and go run your own tournaments. That way, everyone is happy and we don't have to read your whiney *** posts anymore.

That's not very nice dude. We're trying to have a relatively polite conversation here and you had to go and ruin it. (I lost it a bit myself as well, so I guess I'm a hypocrite again).

Also, you act like you speak for the community. That's very arrogant of you.

 

[Ferith]

I do see where you're coming from, and I do understand that you do deeply care for the game and have its interests at heart, but it's simply too soon to diagnose it with shallow or deepness. It's been out in America for a month, Japan for two, and hasn't even been released in Europe. Wavedashing took two YEARS to find, and it's one of the most used techs out there.

I think this game simply wasn't meant to be played competitively in the style we're used to. I wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai designed this to NOT be competitive by any means- it's main focus is mindgames which lead to longer fights without limited options. I don't think that changing the game simply to get rid of camping helps this though- this actually aids faster characters who CAN pull off such combos, and not slower ones like Ike who NEED mindgames for one on one play.

I believe it will be played competitively without a doubt, even if it ends up being shallow, simply because it's Brawl. I also do believe, however, that the mindgames are a huge aspect, and it's too soon to judge. If, after a few more months, it's still extremely shallow, and if this is noticed on a global scale, then such petitions could actually work, however now it's too soon- we're pulling the line before the fish has bitten.

 

[DRaGZ]

Who are all these pros abandoning Brawl, besides M2K?

Gimpyfish, who used to be the most prominent supporter of Brawl on these forums, now disdains it. So does eggm, HugS, uhm...I don't know that many pros to be honest. I know Wife and King apparently hate it also. I dunno. Ask someone else who knows more pros. >_>

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Fastfalling simply makes approaching faster. Remember SHFFLing in Melee? Well, we no longer have the L part, but in regular Brawl the FF part doesn't even work because fastfalling is still really slow. Fastfalling is obviously faster in Heavy Brawl, thus approaches are faster as well. It's the same concept as in Melee, except that you can't l-cancel it thus it becomes very important to actually land the hit properly.

Try it out by short-hop fastfalling DeDeDe's nair as an approach in Heavy Brawl, which has very little landing lag, btw. You'll be amazed at how effective it is. Then try it regular Brawl, and you'll realize what I mean.

So thats the goal of this whole operation? To SHFF better? How does that stop the defensive options your opponent has?


Meh. I'm out of here. Its 2:030 am and I just can't see whats good about heavy brawl. I can only hope that you all at least let the regular metagame develop before you kill it.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Gimpyfish, who used to be the most prominent supporter of Brawl on these forums, now disdains it. So does eggm, HugS, uhm...I don't know that many pros to be honest. I know Wife and King apparently hate it also. I dunno. Ask someone else who knows more pros. >_>

Oh, before I leave, where can i see this? I'd love to know why Gimpy dislikes Brawl :o

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

Lmfao @ all the scrubs. If you don't like what we're doing to Brawl, go make your own ****ing board and play with your items and stupid stages over there. No one is forcing you to be a member here, or play by our rules. Go make your own forum, and go run your own tournaments. That way, everyone is happy and we don't have to read your whiney *** posts anymore.

First of all, I do play by my own rules. Just because the way the competitive scene is unfolding doesn't currently concern me (although it might one day) doesn't mean I can't talk about it and offer my opinions.

Also, Smashboards is not your private tourney*** circlejerk. Anyone at all who has anything to say about Smash Bros. can come here and post, without having to prove themselves to elitists like you.

 

[Nitoheilapine]

I like Heavy Brawl, but I can play normal Brawl. Time to go to bed. Night guys and nice talking to ya -.- I'll be playing Ice Climbers, and may actually be maining Lucas. Have a good one.

 

[DRaGZ]

Never said this was Melee and Iam gald you realize that fact,but what I was hinting at is the fact this is gonna be running around in circles once again.Camping=Brawl ??????(a.k.a something else)=Heavy Brawl



Iam online right now,wanna back that statment up?Or you gonna find some other 1990s style post for an excuse?

I do see where you're coming from, and I do understand that you do deeply care for the game and have its interests at heart, but it's simply too soon to diagnose it with shallow or deepness. It's been out in America for a month, Japan for two, and hasn't even been released in Europe. Wavedashing took two YEARS to find, and it's one of the most used techs out there.

I think this game simply wasn't meant to be played competitively in the style we're used to. I wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai designed this to NOT be competitive by any means- it's main focus is mindgames which lead to longer fights without limited options. I don't think that changing the game simply to get rid of camping helps this though- this actually aids faster characters who CAN pull off such combos, and not slower ones like Ike who NEED mindgames for one on one play.

I believe it will be played competitively without a doubt, even if it ends up being shallow, simply because it's Brawl. I also do believe, however, that the mindgames are a huge aspect, and it's too soon to judge. If, after a few more months, it's still extremely shallow, and if this is noticed on a global scale, then such petitions could actually work, however now it's too soon- we're pulling the line before the fish has bitten.

For both of you, I'm just saying, why not give Heavy Brawl a chance as well? At this point in the game, it seems to be more competitively viable, isn't that enough to at least give it a chance in a few tournaments to see how things turn out? I don't think we have anything to lose here.

I'm also saying that we don't need to look for more ATs because Heavy Brawl already alleviates the problems that those "hopefully soon to come" ATs would supposedly remedy. Heavy Brawl already solves the problem.

And I'm not saying not to keep going with Regular Brawl. I mean, obviously, no matter what I say, normal Brawl tournaments are going to continue. Maybe we'll find something because of that. Maybe not. That's why I think we should continue with Heavy Brawl as well. Who knows, maybe we'll discover new ATs in Heavy Brawl...*shrugs*

 

[Papapaint]

Let me quote from the article as well:
This is exactly what people are already saying about Brawl. People believe it is shallow, and the top pros from Melee that tried to get into Brawl are abandoning it. These pros know what they're talking about, they know what makes a Smash game deep, and Brawl apparently has none of those things. Camping is the largest symptom of this, but there are others: the inability to follow-up, the near non-existant edgegame, unbalanced offensive/defensive options, etc.

I truly appreciate your opinion, I do. In all honesty, I hope you are right. I really do. But, realistically, I don't see camping going away.

Beat me to it.

Also, I think we're focusing too much on the idea of "camping". A ton of posters who think they're beating good campers are debating because they don't understand what it is we're actually opposing.

The problem is that Brawl favors the defender overwhelmingly. Between two players of equal skill, the defensive player is always at an advantage due to the following reasons:

1. Powershielding. Much easier in brawl, much, much faster in brawl. There has yet to be an AT with more metagame significance.

2. Shieldgrabs. Most characters have an absurdly long shield-grab. You simply can't approach someone on the ground if they are shielding (and not a moron).

3. Rolling/Sidestepping. These are significantly sped up, and allow for a character to get out of a high-stress situation rather easily.

4. Low hitstun+high knockback+floatiness. There is absolutely no real concept of punishment. That is to say, the defending player has the advantages listed above. If they screw up, the situation simply resets. The defender isn't punished much at all. They're knocked nice and far, too far to chain, and then they're back in an advantageous position.

This is true theoretically and anecdotally. Shield lag is much lower than attack lag. Hitstun and floatiness mean that any combo is simply an opponent making poor decisions. Between equally skilled players, this does not happen.

Mindgames do not enter into play, simply because there are SO FEW attacking options, and each one is visible a mile away. Very few characters have short hoppable aerials, and those that do tend to do much better jumping out of shield to retaliate vs. an agressor. You know that an attacker can A: Shield B: Grab C: Attack. The latter two you see from a mile away, and the first just leads to two defensive players.

No one's saying that every good player right now camps. But mathematically, and in practice, being the defensive player puts you at a distinct advantage. Considering no one wants to be at a disadvantage when they're playing for money, tournaments will consist of people playing defensively. Consistently playing defensively is camping.

Camping is not projectiles.
Camping can happen up close.
Camping is simply playing purely defensively. It's the smart move right now.

The argument that something will "happen" to get rid of this disgusting defensive advantage is entirely invalid.

This is something happening. This is a change to the game. This gets rid of the overly-powerful defense. It allows for more approach options. It allows for punishment. It allows for edgegames.

If this were an advanced technique, people would be all over it. But for some reason, people would prefer for us to break the game rather than play within the game's creation.

 

[DRaGZ]

So thats the goal of this whole operation? To SHFF better? How does that stop the defensive options your opponent has?


Meh. I'm out of here. Its 2:030 am and I just can't see whats good about heavy brawl. I can only hope that you all at least let the regular metagame develop before you kill it.

Read my opening post. Carefully. It's far more than just SHFF. It's things you can do after approach, things you can do off the ledge, placing more importance on using techniques correctly. It deepens the game.

Oh, before I leave, where can i see this? I'd love to know why Gimpy dislikes Brawl :o

Are you serious? Have you not seen the thread he's put up on this board about this?

"Brawl will have a backwards progression": http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158791

He clearly is jaded with this game.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

I do see where you're coming from, and I do understand that you do deeply care for the game and have its interests at heart, but it's simply too soon to diagnose it with shallow or deepness. It's been out in America for a month, Japan for two, and hasn't even been released in Europe. Wavedashing took two YEARS to find, and it's one of the most used techs out there.

I think this game simply wasn't meant to be played competitively in the style we're used to. I wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai designed this to NOT be competitive by any means- it's main focus is mindgames which lead to longer fights without limited options. I don't think that changing the game simply to get rid of camping helps this though- this actually aids faster characters who CAN pull off such combos, and not slower ones like Ike who NEED mindgames for one on one play.

I believe it will be played competitively without a doubt, even if it ends up being shallow, simply because it's Brawl. I also do believe, however, that the mindgames are a huge aspect, and it's too soon to judge. If, after a few more months, it's still extremely shallow, and if this is noticed on a global scale, then such petitions could actually work, however now it's too soon- we're pulling the line before the fish has bitten.

Bingo,thats kinda where Iam inching towards.I mean we still have this game while its quite young and trying to learn different types of battles are only gonna make it that much more complex and annoying.Lets try and take what we were used too and try to find ways around the self-explantory style as of right now.

 

[Ferith]

I'm against Heavy Brawl simply because it gives faster players an advantage- they can combo, while slower players can't really anyway. It also hampers my fighting style (I play as Ike, Luigi, and Falco) and I don't like shifting the focus of the game.

More time needs to be put into Brawl- not to look for AT's but simply to get a feel for the game and it's strategies and fully develop them. I'll play some Heavy Brawl casually, but when it comes to tournaments I don't want the fast characters to combo and the slow characters not- I like Brawl's mindgame based playing style because I can go in there with Ike and just slaughter everything in my path. I've been some of the best Toon Link's and Wolf's I know, it's simply the way I enjoy the game. Your concerns are all valid, I simply disagree with changing the game to remove one strategy. It DOES make the game deeper, but at the cost of some balance.

 

[Papapaint]

I do see where you're coming from, and I do understand that you do deeply care for the game and have its interests at heart, but it's simply too soon to diagnose it with shallow or deepness. It's been out in America for a month, Japan for two, and hasn't even been released in Europe. Wavedashing took two YEARS to find, and it's one of the most used techs out there.

I think this game simply wasn't meant to be played competitively in the style we're used to. I wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai designed this to NOT be competitive by any means- it's main focus is mindgames which lead to longer fights without limited options. I don't think that changing the game simply to get rid of camping helps this though- this actually aids faster characters who CAN pull off such combos, and not slower ones like Ike who NEED mindgames for one on one play.

I believe it will be played competitively without a doubt, even if it ends up being shallow, simply because it's Brawl. I also do believe, however, that the mindgames are a huge aspect, and it's too soon to judge. If, after a few more months, it's still extremely shallow, and if this is noticed on a global scale, then such petitions could actually work, however now it's too soon- we're pulling the line before the fish has bitten.

I made a post very similar to yours, comparing counterstrike's shift from 1.6 to source with melee to brawl.

But what we're doing is exactly what you're suggesting. We're trying to make the game more viable. Why do it with some sort of physics exploit instead of simply playing an in-game mode?

 

[LouisLeGros]

People that say Brawl is just as competitive but just requires mindgames are only fooling them selfs.

They talk about all the technical skill in melee and how that is really all that matters. They couldn't be more wrong. With two equally technically skilled players mind games are huge. The number of options and things to manipulate at any second, any frame, are mind boggling.

Sure technical skill can win you a match, but when we talk about competitive standards we are talking about similarly skilled players, so bringing up difference in technical skill is very moot.


I don't care how many times you say regular Brawl is all about the mind games, there is no way you are going to be able to quantitate it and say it is greater or more important then melee mind games or heavy brawl mind games. So can we please get over the point of the mind games? This is smash, not poker.

 

[Ferith]

We don't need a new advanced tech- just a new strategy. A way around camping, and to do that we need a feel of the game and time.

I will say that there are some very valid points and concerns made here, however anything can be stopped in a fighting game.

 

[Papapaint]

I'm against Heavy Brawl simply because it gives faster players an advantage- they can combo, while slower players can't really anyway. It also hampers my fighting style (I play as Ike, Luigi, and Falco) and I don't like shifting the focus of the game.

More time needs to be put into Brawl- not to look for AT's but simply to get a feel for the game and it's strategies and fully develop them. I'll play some Heavy Brawl casually, but when it comes to tournaments I don't want the fast characters to combo and the slow characters not- I like Brawl's mindgame based playing style because I can go in there with Ike and just slaughter everything in my path. I've been some of the best Toon Link's and Wolf's I know, it's simply the way I enjoy the game. Your concerns are all valid, I simply disagree with changing the game to remove one strategy. It DOES make the game deeper, but at the cost of some balance.

Luigi is majorly buffed. He's actually one of the best characters. He retains his floatiness, still has his awesome recovery, and can combo like a beast.

I know this for sure. I mained Luigi in 64 and melee, and was determined to stick with him in brawl. My in-game tag is "Homo" because I played pink luigi. I study luigi extensively in both melee and brawl.

Believe me. He gets buffed.

I also wrote the guide to falco in the falco section. I know falco's moves down to the frame. I know exactly how they lag, exactly how they connect, and exactly how they chain. He was buffed even more than luigi by heavy brawl.

Also, the idea that you can "mindgame" defensive players doesn't hold up so well in practice. You have to mindgame, all they have to do is watch. Maybe you'll get one hit in. But against someone just as good as you, you'll take far more.

 

[DRaGZ]

I'm against Heavy Brawl simply because it gives faster players an advantage- they can combo, while slower players can't really anyway. It also hampers my fighting style (I play as Ike, Luigi, and Falco) and I don't like shifting the focus of the game.

More time needs to be put into Brawl- not to look for AT's but simply to get a feel for the game and it's strategies and fully develop them. I'll play some Heavy Brawl casually, but when it comes to tournaments I don't want the fast characters to combo and the slow characters not- I like Brawl's mindgame based playing style because I can go in there with Ike and just slaughter everything in my path. I've been some of the best Toon Link's and Wolf's I know, it's simply the way I enjoy the game. Your concerns are all valid, I simply disagree with changing the game to remove one strategy. It DOES make the game deeper, but at the cost of some balance.

It sort of makes the game deeper by returning balance.

Dude, it's totally fine if you like playing regular Brawl. I'm just saying we should play Heavy Brawl at tournies. It's like playing with items on and Big Blue with friends but playing without items and only on neutral stages in tournaments. Same thing man.

 

[Aqueus]

Sorry ZZ, falling back onto resembling Melee argument gets no extra points. Total Sarcasm score is zero. The simple answer to end this thing is why it's hard to get a person's camp.

Our statements have held up so far. Can you guys bring up an action that will get passed a person's camp, one that will always work, and one that is not easily countered.

Wow, I can't believe this was typed. Someone wants a magic bullet that solves camping? Please. I want a magic bullet that solves combos in Heavy Brawl.

I think my position could be summarized in such a way:

Heavy Brawl doesn't solve anything. The problems that plague Standard Brawl, problems as you see them, are prevalent in Heavy Brawl, they're just less pronounced, because you're ignoring them. I can still fire off a ton of arrows when I'm Pit and an enemy is recovering. I can still run away and continue projectile spamming, with the same accuracy, the same lame run-away stun, and the matches still take the same amount of time.

Perhaps I haven't been fighting the elite, my friends and I were tournament-goers, but never made fame, we started after Brawl had already been announced - however, we're no pushovers. Largely the camping strategy doesn't work with us, maybe I'm not doing it right.

I'm just not seeing a solution to these 'flaws' coming from Heavy Brawl. Camping can be solved by jumping into the opponent and slamming their face. You get spot-dodged, you get punished, learn to feel out the opponent.

I guess this is one of those "You're having a problem playing game X, I'll keep playing Brawl." I don't find that anyone in my circle is overly campy, and when I tried to mimic the strategy, I failed. Ike clotheslined me so quick I didn't know what truck had hit me. Faster characters danced around these killer arrows of camping doom on the approach. It didn't always end in an untimely death, but I never got rewarded the way you gentlemen prior in the thread suppose.

Camping isn't a magic bullet to solve gameplay. You can't just camp and win. You have to camp strategically, and in the end, you get hit, just like everyone else. Sure, try and camp, but you're going to have to stop camping sometime. Offense is necessary to kill your opponents.

Fox storms in with a DThrow, tech chases into a Waveshine, follows through with a Waveshine until you're off the stage, and shines you to death. Instead of camping, he Waveshined you, similar problem, but no one supposed that we should play on Training Mode on x2 Speed to make the move harder to pull off. Competitive play will arise out of Brawl, why? Because it's Melee 2. It may not have the tech-heavy aspect, but it's not like the games are piss-poor to watch, be a part of, or they are shallow.

At work, I play with some hardcore Melee gamers, we have 15-minute breaks. We play Brawl with 3 Stock and a timer set to 3 minutes (With player swapping and time between matches, we can get in three rounds[!]). We have only hit the time twice in all the time we've been playing. Once when we accidentally picked Temple, and once when we all picked Kirby. I don't understand how a bunch of 'pros' can't finish a 3-stock match in under 5 minutes on a standard stage like FD, Battlefield, or Smashville.

Maybe in my next post I'll address some of the random people who've been sniping at me. (Take that with a grain of salt gentlemen, I was joking)

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Read my opening post. Carefully. It's far more than just SHFF. It's things you can do after approach, things you can do off the ledge, placing more importance on using techniques correctly. It deepens the game.



Are you serious? Have you not seen the thread he's put up on this board about this?

"Brawl will have a backwards progression": http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158791

He clearly is jaded with this game.

Jeez, im sorry I don't browse through Smashboards very often. All the arguing discourages me.