Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[Demon Kirby]

I don't remember if this has been posted in this thread yet, but

I think we've all seen it now . . .

 

[LouisLeGros]

I think we've all seen it now . . .

I would bet you that Time2Brawl hasn't read it

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

Sorry! Let me adjust that.

"But the campers!"

The worse player, as you put it, is suddenly that much better because he camps? I doubt that.

Camping is not Brawl's best strategy.

If you're talking about regular brawl: Yes it is -_- If you play competitively, it totally is.

Read the OP. At one point, it adresses a match between wolf and a campy toon link. When the wolf attacks, he has few options, and T.link can counter all of them easily.

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

Sorry! Let me adjust that.

"But the campers!"

The worse player, as you put it, is suddenly that much better because he camps? I doubt that.

Camping is not Brawl's best strategy.

EDIT: Whoah, what the...This is a new one! A triple post where the first one is different from the second two, and there are posts inbetween.

 

[Time2Brawl]

I would bet you that Time2Brawl hasn't read it

Have. He makes a good point although I still disagree.

I just like the game the way it is, I don't see anything wrong with it, camping has not yet been an issue to me. I'm sure when you see the best people playing like MLG-level, they won't care and will have no problem beating these horid campers.

 

[Time2Brawl]

Those who say "Stop trying to make this Melee V 2.0" really need to stop, sit down, and read what these guys have to say. They make some great and valid points, and really care for the game.

That said, I have that utmost respect for those supporting Heavy Brawl, and although I disagree with them I hope we can settle this in a calm and relaxed manner.

One point that commonly comes up is the idea of punishment. For a casual player this means nothing (so there's no reason you should be here) but for a competitive player this is a huge deal. This is what makes mindgames worth it- it's the reward for your risk, and you're not getting enough of it. As a result you can't truly punish those who play poorly- seperate the men from the boys.

The thing with Brawl is that it's entirely devoted to mindgames. You can't really combo and airdodges put a flaw in many potential situations. However, this only really means longer battles with more mindgames than before. You're now only risking a hit, and fact is mindgames happen so fast in this game (an Ike player will be mindgaming against fast players constantly simply to have a chance. A Luigi player will be attempting to get his opponent in the air which is Luigi's strong point in order to pull off a good string of four to five hits and knock them over the edge- plausible since air dodging doesn't work all the time, there's a waiting period after an air dodge, and you're bound to get a few hits in. A Zamus player will try to set up their opponent in a position favorable to her whip, and so on.) that it really doesn't matter. You could have several "hit or get hit" mindgames within a few seconds, this game isn't going at the slowest pace imaginable. This becomes more of a mental battle, but one where you can make mistakes because you're only suffering one hit. My friend plays several competitive games, huge on street and virtua fighters, and he tells me that some of his games are extremely intense for the player because of these mindgames but incredibly boring to watch.

He played a player (I forgot his name- started with an R, so we'll call him Rukazio...simply because I think it's close) quite recently in a very intense match for him. He noticed a pattern in Rukazio's strategy and attacked it, and soon had Rukazio in low health. As my friend was happy, Rukazio suddenly flipped the entire thing around him. He predicted every one of my friend's moves after that- told it to him too- told him he'd caught on ages ago, and won an extremely uphill battle with nothing but mindgames- and this is from a guy who's terrible with combos in a competitive fighting game. Point is, a fighting game with dozens of lesser mindgames can be just as intense for the player.

But Fer, the competitive scene will dwindle! We don't want this to end up like street fighter, with a tiny fanbase, we want this to have a fanbase as big as Melee! Well we can't do much about that now can we? Sure we can add heavy Brawl to make things fall faster, but why not just add Metal instead? Because it'll be harder to kill your opponent? No, not true, they'll fall incredibly fast if you can get them off the edge. The entire focus of the game then shifts from racking up percent to simply getting them off the edge as soon as possible and watching them plummet. This is the same problem with Heavy Brawl- Brawl was NOT designed to be fast and combo heavy, it was intentionally designed otherwise. It is meant to be a game played with the mind, and not with the abusiveness of techs and combos and an assortment of glitches. Playing Heavy Brawl may be more competitive, but it changes the focus of the game just the same because recoveries become nerfed. Recovery was something drastically upgraded in Brawl for a reason- the game designers know what they're doing. Fights WILL be longer, they WILL be harder and more mentally taxing as a result. Fights WILL be less combo heavy, they WILL be more mindgame heavy. This focus on mindgames allows slow characters to actually have a chance- it makes the game more balanced to all builds. I play as both Ike and Luigi, and am trying to get into Falco. If I were to throw in Ike in heavy brawl, I'd be destroyed. I'd be combo'd like god knows what and my speed would make me near useless in such a fight. This reduces the playability of arial based characters- Jigglypuff- as well (although I'm not sure whether this is a nerf or a buff to Luigi) It changes the way characters are played, and as a result is bound to imbalance something.

This game has been released for two months in Japan, not even a month in America. There needs to be significant time put into the game before we can decide which option is best. But Fer! We could make it amazing RIGHT NOW! And then we'd be missing dozens of potential possibilities created through regular Brawl's floaty system. It was made to be a floaty game- let's keep Sakurai's vision intact.

You're right. Everybody who hasn't read this, do so now.

Boring to watch... not to play.

 

[SunriseW12]

Have. He makes a good point although I still disagree.

I just like the game the way it is, I don't see anything wrong with it, camping has not yet been an issue to me. I'm sure when you see the best people playing like MLG-level, they won't care and will have no problem beating these horid campers.

How exactly would they "beat those horrid campers?" Give me a way that a PRO ZOMG 1337 H4X wolf player can beat a camper. Tell me.

 

[Aqueus]

Jesus, this is getting fanatic. A poster commented earlier that the Wolf in the opening scenario does have more options than what was stated. This looks like it's an incredible case of hyperbole.

I've seen Heavy Brawl, it does not look good. One slip and you're off the stage - dead before you knew what hit you. Edgehogging will be the new camping. Then you'll complain about that, too. Then we'll all have to circulate a custom stage that has no edges so that everyone can get used to that.

There are a dozen more points that make Heavy Brawl a worse option than standard Brawl, let's try to word them in an unbiased, bullet-point fashion:

Ruins many characters recovery options. Yes they were broken before, but they erred on the side of excellent recovery, now you want to err on the side of crappy recovery.

Does not actually increase the combo potential. WHAT?! WAIT WHAT!? That's right. Just because you're knocking them 5 feet instead of 40 does not mean that they have any less hitstun. (OH SHNAP!) People can hit you just as easily as they can in Standard Brawl, meaning those combos you imagined existed - don't. Any character can break out of these 'Heavy Brawl Combos' just as easily as they could in Standard Brawl, except now they've got to stick to a specific move that will hit you before they, say, hit the ground, canceling their attack animation.

Falling too fast. Yes, this sounds dumb, of course you're going to fall faster in Heavy Brawl, that's the point, but if someone nudges you off the ledge you fall almost as quickly as if you were Metal. Snapping makes recovery from this much easier, but it's still a big issue. I don't want to lose a stock because a scrub PK Fire'd me as I went into a laggy move - off the stage I went, unable to return.

This doesn't actually mimic Melee playstyle. You aren't actually L-Cancelling, Wavedashing, and abusing the poor physics, you're still playing Brawl, still suffering the lag after each landing-interrupted aerial.

I hope this mob of Heavy Brawlers disperses soon, I want my Brawl to get some better ATs.

 

[Zig-Zag!]

To save me 20 pages of crap...

can someone answer me, in less than one paragraph , how scrapping a year to develop brawl metagame in order to create a melee-esque game with no wavedashing or L canceling is ideal?

 

[KiteDXX]

I'll take the guilty route and post without having read beyond the 4th page of this topic. Do note that I am reading and comprehending the key points of the topic.

Has stage discussion been brought up? Because I'm interested in seeing something other than mechanics being brought to the table here. Final Destination appears to be a VERY commonly chosen stage in competitive Brawl (from my observations; don't take my word for it), and it advocates camping so obviously that it hurts. Very much.

Platforms do add a sense of relief and a better form of approach than an otherwise flat stage (Final Destination), and I'll probably not be the first to say that out of all the stages I play online against others, that Final Destination creates the least interesting battle. It worked in Melee, but probably won't be the case for Brawl, at least in my honest opinion.

 

[JugaBro]

Jesus, this is getting fanatic. A poster commented earlier that the Wolf in the opening scenario does have more options than what was stated. This looks like it's an incredible case of hyperbole.

I've seen Heavy Brawl, it does not look good. One slip and you're off the stage - dead before you knew what hit you. Edgehogging will be the new camping. Then you'll complain about that, too. Then we'll all have to circulate a custom stage that has no edges so that everyone can get used to that.

There are a dozen more points that make Heavy Brawl a worse option than standard Brawl, let's try to word them in an unbiased, bullet-point fashion:

Ruins many characters recovery options. Yes they were broken before, but they erred on the side of excellent recovery, now you want to err on the side of crappy recovery.

Does not actually increase the combo potential. WHAT?! WAIT WHAT!? That's right. Just because you're knocking them 5 feet instead of 40 does not mean that they have any less hitstun. (OH SHNAP!) People can hit you just as easily as they can in Standard Brawl, meaning those combos you imagined existed - don't. Any character can break out of these 'Heavy Brawl Combos' just as easily as they could in Standard Brawl, except now they've got to stick to a specific move that will hit you before they, say, hit the ground, canceling their attack animation.

Falling too fast. Yes, this sounds dumb, of course you're going to fall faster in Heavy Brawl, that's the point, but if someone nudges you off the ledge you fall almost as quickly as if you were Metal. Snapping makes recovery from this much easier, but it's still a big issue. I don't want to lose a stock because a scrub PK Fire'd me as I went into a laggy move - off the stage I went, unable to return.

This doesn't actually mimic Melee playstyle. You aren't actually L-Cancelling, Wavedashing, and abusing the poor physics, you're still playing Brawl, still suffering the lag after each landing-interrupted aerial.

I hope this mob of Heavy Brawlers disperses soon, I want my Brawl to get some better ATs.

Do you realy think our convictions are that weak that we can't refute anything truthfully in these statements? I'm not saying your points are bad, but not all are 100% truthfull.

With your statement about bad recovery- Well, since everyone is about affected the same, its a choice between overly good recovery and bad recovery. Mabey some prefer the game to go on very long with someone recovering from every non 1 hit KO move, and I believe many do, but not me and other, I know. This is almost a preference issue. I also doubt your going to just "fall" off and die instantly. I mean, if people can recovery from the bottom of FD, I think you can "recover" from falling off the edge once.

About comboing- Yes, the hitstun is the same. That will always be an issue. But you can't seriously expect me to believe that it doesn't help comboing by having them be knocked less distance. For example, many ariel combos dont exist because the opponent is hit TOO HIGH to be combo'd. Dont say they can just get out of the combo, that is always an issue, but its not always 100% that they can. This has always been like this. We're not talking about 0% kill combos here anyway...

There will always be small issues with things like this; bad recovery, easy death, getting out of intended combos. This will just help it. At least give it some time, at the least. Tournament at the side perhaps.

Oh, also about edgeguarding about being the new camping...
Edgeguarding is a scenario situation. Camping, on the other hand, can be done anywhere ona stage, aka FD or battlefield. With edgeguarding, you had to have gotten yourself into that situation, not have it an automatic happening. I'm not saying that it wont be popular to do this in heavy brawl once you actually have someone off the stage, but this cant be spammed without being stopped in some way.

 

[Nitoheilapine]

One point that commonly comes up is the idea of punishment. For a casual player this means nothing (so there's no reason you should be here) but for a competitive player this is a huge deal. This is what makes mindgames worth it- it's the reward for your risk, and you're not getting enough of it. As a result you can't truly punish those who play poorly- seperate the men from the boys.

The thing with Brawl is that it's entirely devoted to mindgames. You can't really combo and airdodges put a flaw in many potential situations. However, this only really means longer battles with more mindgames than before. You're now only risking a hit, and fact is mindgames happen so fast in this game that it really doesn't matter. You could have several "hit or get hit" mindgames within a few seconds, this game isn't going at the slowest pace imaginable. This becomes more of a mental battle, but one where you can make mistakes because you're only suffering one hit.

Sure we can add heavy Brawl to make things fall faster, but why not just add Metal instead? Because it'll be harder to kill your opponent? No, not true, they'll fall incredibly fast if you can get them off the edge. The entire focus of the game then shifts from racking up percent to simply getting them off the edge as soon as possible and watching them plummet. This is the same problem with Heavy Brawl- Brawl was NOT designed to be fast and combo heavy, it was intentionally designed otherwise. It is meant to be a game played with the mind, and not with the abusiveness of techs and combos and an assortment of glitches. Playing Heavy Brawl may be more competitive, but it changes the focus of the game just the same because recoveries become nerfed.

Recovery was something drastically upgraded in Brawl for a reason- the game designers know what they're doing. Fights WILL be longer, they WILL be harder and more mentally taxing as a result. Fights WILL be less combo heavy, they WILL be more mindgame heavy. This focus on mindgames allows slow characters to actually have a chance- it makes the game more balanced to all builds. I play as both Ike and Luigi, and am trying to get into Falco.

This reduces the playability of arial based characters- Jigglypuff- as well (although I'm not sure whether this is a nerf or a buff to Luigi) It changes the way characters are played, and as a result is bound to imbalance something.

Note: I read the whole thing, only some points I want to address because I'm pretty sure there's flaws in them.

The first line in the quote. Punishment means nothing to a casual player. This is generalizing, and wrong in most cases. Punishment for making a mistake is done by everyone. Punishment for using a Smart bomb would obviously be catching it, or throwing the owner into his own bomb. Punishment for using a giant mushroom would be to hide in the middle of them and deal random attacks. Punishment for using projectiles all time would be... well... Hard to come up with that one, but it would obviously be reflect if the person was a space animal.

Second up. Brawl is devoted to mind games. This is also false. I've argued mindgames before and it comes to a simple game of rock-paper-scissors. You got the attack, the attack's counter, and the counter's counter. Really doesn't leave up for much mindgames when you put it as blunt as that.

If an example is needed, here's one. Lucas spamming PK Fire against an Ice Climbers trying to push from the front. The counters branch off, but are countered in their own. Roll underneath the PK fire results in a stick to the face. Jumping over results in an Up Smash or PK thunder. Attack, counter, counter's counter.

Next up is instead of Heavy, why not just use metal? Metal adds one more thing people do not like at all and that's immovability. A metal bowser will not bounce two feets from standard attacks alone. Smash attacks will send him as far back as a tilt. Comparing Metal and Heavy is like comparing Paris Hilton and Hilary Duff. Also, people do not fall as fast in heavy brawl. Metal brawl will have people dropped like a lead weight.

Speaking of heavy brawl, characters with Aerial based combat would love to be able to have their opponent to fall into their next attack smoothly rather than them floating away.

Another point I would like to bring up. Brawl was meant to be played with the mind. Add in played with the mind lightly cause the way it came, this is not the case. Tripping has already been pointed out. Items, same with real life items, don't have to have some very intellectual person to use them. Final Smashes. These require no mind game at all unless you count running away and waiting for the correct time to use it a mind game.

Of course, I'm bringing items into the mix because you have said this is what brawl was made to be. A mindgame. This can not be true given the circumstances. A person does not think, if they do this , I'm going to do this, all the time. 50% of the time at best.

Last note. Combos are wanted in the game cause well.... Who wants to see a nintendo-rendition of Rock-Paper-Scissors with flashy attacks and voice acting? I would just go play Wario-Ware if I wanted it to be.

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

Yeah, aqueas, you totally overexagerated the bad recovery there. It's not "Fall off and you drop like a lead balloon!", it's more like, "Fall off and still recover unless you're really good at falling."

 

[Heavyarms2050]

Jesus, this is getting fanatic. A poster commented earlier that the Wolf in the opening scenario does have more options than what was stated. This looks like it's an incredible case of hyperbole.

I've seen Heavy Brawl, it does not look good. One slip and you're off the stage - dead before you knew what hit you. Edgehogging will be the new camping. Then you'll complain about that, too. Then we'll all have to circulate a custom stage that has no edges so that everyone can get used to that.

There are a dozen more points that make Heavy Brawl a worse option than standard Brawl, let's try to word them in an unbiased, bullet-point fashion:

Ruins many characters recovery options. Yes they were broken before, but they erred on the side of excellent recovery, now you want to err on the side of crappy recovery.

Does not actually increase the combo potential. WHAT?! WAIT WHAT!? That's right. Just because you're knocking them 5 feet instead of 40 does not mean that they have any less hitstun. (OH SHNAP!) People can hit you just as easily as they can in Standard Brawl, meaning those combos you imagined existed - don't. Any character can break out of these 'Heavy Brawl Combos' just as easily as they could in Standard Brawl, except now they've got to stick to a specific move that will hit you before they, say, hit the ground, canceling their attack animation.

Falling too fast. Yes, this sounds dumb, of course you're going to fall faster in Heavy Brawl, that's the point, but if someone nudges you off the ledge you fall almost as quickly as if you were Metal. Snapping makes recovery from this much easier, but it's still a big issue. I don't want to lose a stock because a scrub PK Fire'd me as I went into a laggy move - off the stage I went, unable to return.

This doesn't actually mimic Melee playstyle. You aren't actually L-Cancelling, Wavedashing, and abusing the poor physics, you're still playing Brawl, still suffering the lag after each landing-interrupted aerial.

I hope this mob of Heavy Brawlers disperses soon, I want my Brawl to get some better ATs.

i agree with this man.

 

[Nitoheilapine]

i agree with this man.

And I disagree with a simple saying of his points are over exaggerated for effect. It is as simple as that and no point on pointing it out because others have already caught on.

 

[Superstar]

@Zig-Zag
Even if attempted to implement Heavy Brawl now, assuming it is a very good idea and the current physics completely suck, will take a while. First of all, the metagame has to develop to the point where everyone camps even MORE than now [don't really know the current situation], and the small one-two hit combos have to fade out due to the rapid increase in defensive maneuvers. On top of that, people have to have gotten VERY bored of regular Brawl. Secondly, not everyone agrees. If implemented, very few tournaments will have it, but if its a phenomenal success it will spread in maybe a month, but maybe longer depending to the amount of success and enjoyment.

Basically, even though I'm guessing, no change this drastic will happen overnight, you'd have to be STUPID to think that. It'd only be implemented if its really needed.

@Aqueus - Don't wish to answer the rest as I'm too lazy, but:

Does not actually increase the combo potential. WHAT?! WAIT WHAT!? That's right. Just because you're knocking them 5 feet instead of 40 does not mean that they have any less hitstun. (OH SHNAP!) People can hit you just as easily as they can in Standard Brawl, meaning those combos you imagined existed - don't. Any character can break out of these 'Heavy Brawl Combos' just as easily as they could in Standard Brawl, except now they've got to stick to a specific move that will hit you before they, say, hit the ground, canceling their attack animation.

Doesn't being knocked a shorter distance make it possible to reach them before the stun wears off? My Fox from my limited experience had some more combos in Heavy Brawl which were mostly extended versions of the drill combos in regular Brawl.

Fastposted, but meh. Hope what I typed isn't misunderstood. Also, Fox's drill still autocanceled from what I saw, so that's good for me.

 

[Eternal Neo]

I don't see why we can't just hold both heavy and normal tournaments and let the pros choose whichever they prefer.

 

[JugaBro]

I don't see why we can't just hold both heavy and normal tournaments and let the pros choose whichever they prefer.

Oh, we will. People just need to realize that it will actually be worth it to do so.

 

[Nitoheilapine]

I don't see why we can't just hold both heavy and normal tournaments and let the pros choose whichever they prefer.

Easy! If two tournaments are held for brawl, one heavy and one not, the amount of Johns will increase with lines such as the following:

-'I could beat you if this was heavy brawl'
-'My character dropped too fast, no fair'
-'Try sucking in helium, I heard it makes you float more'

Seriously now, I don't want anymore Johns than the next person ._.

 

[DRaGZ]

Jesus, this is getting fanatic. A poster commented earlier that the Wolf in the opening scenario does have more options than what was stated. This looks like it's an incredible case of hyperbole.

I've seen Heavy Brawl, it does not look good. One slip and you're off the stage - dead before you knew what hit you. Edgehogging will be the new camping. Then you'll complain about that, too. Then we'll all have to circulate a custom stage that has no edges so that everyone can get used to that.

There are a dozen more points that make Heavy Brawl a worse option than standard Brawl, let's try to word them in an unbiased, bullet-point fashion:

Ruins many characters recovery options. Yes they were broken before, but they erred on the side of excellent recovery, now you want to err on the side of crappy recovery.

Does not actually increase the combo potential. WHAT?! WAIT WHAT!? That's right. Just because you're knocking them 5 feet instead of 40 does not mean that they have any less hitstun. (OH SHNAP!) People can hit you just as easily as they can in Standard Brawl, meaning those combos you imagined existed - don't. Any character can break out of these 'Heavy Brawl Combos' just as easily as they could in Standard Brawl, except now they've got to stick to a specific move that will hit you before they, say, hit the ground, canceling their attack animation.

Falling too fast. Yes, this sounds dumb, of course you're going to fall faster in Heavy Brawl, that's the point, but if someone nudges you off the ledge you fall almost as quickly as if you were Metal. Snapping makes recovery from this much easier, but it's still a big issue. I don't want to lose a stock because a scrub PK Fire'd me as I went into a laggy move - off the stage I went, unable to return.

This doesn't actually mimic Melee playstyle. You aren't actually L-Cancelling, Wavedashing, and abusing the poor physics, you're still playing Brawl, still suffering the lag after each landing-interrupted aerial.

I hope this mob of Heavy Brawlers disperses soon, I want my Brawl to get some better ATs.

Mob of Heavy Brawlers? We're just trying to come to a consensus here based on facts. IF anything, I think we've tried to be as civilized as possible, far more civil than other threads on this board in fact.

You do not fall off as quickly as if you were Metal. Again, this makes me highly doubt that you have even tried Heavy Brawl. If you tried Heavy Brawl, you would know for a fact that you do not fall particularly fast unless you intentionally fast-fall.

And for the last god**** time...WE'RE NOT TRYING TO EMULATE MELEE. We are aware of the options that haven't changed in Heavy Brawl, but we are also aware that said options are far more valuable in Heavy Brawl than in regular Brawl. Teching becomes useful to get out of combos. Shorthopped airdodge approaches actually work. RARing is useful again. Footstooling can actually kill. Stuff like stick ledges, tether recoveries, and multiple airdodges haven't gone away, we know that.

I'll take the guilty route and post without having read beyond the 4th page of this topic. Do note that I am reading and comprehending the key points of the topic.

Has stage discussion been brought up? Because I'm interested in seeing something other than mechanics being brought to the table here. Final Destination appears to be a VERY commonly chosen stage in competitive Brawl (from my observations; don't take my word for it), and it advocates camping so obviously that it hurts. Very much.

Platforms do add a sense of relief and a better form of approach than an otherwise flat stage (Final Destination), and I'll probably not be the first to say that out of all the stages I play online against others, that Final Destination creates the least interesting battle. It worked in Melee, but probably won't be the case for Brawl, at least in my honest opinion.

Large flat stages, like Final Destination, are no longer campy because campiness in general is toned down a lot. It's actually fun to play on these levels again! In particular, my favorite levels now are Smashville, because of the crazy platform back-and-forth action, and Yoshi's Island, which has awesome saving platforms on either side, walls on either side of the stage that go all the way down, and a wonky platform in the middle that keeps things interesting.

Do you realy think our convictions are that weak that we can't refute anything truthfully in these statements? I'm not saying your points are bad, but not all are 100% truthfull.

With your statement about bad recovery- Well, since everyone is about affected the same, its a choice between overly good recovery and bad recovery. Mabey some prefer the game to go on very long with someone recovering from every non 1 hit KO move, and I believe many do, but not me and other, I know. This is almost a preference issue. I also doubt your going to just "fall" off and die instantly. I mean, if people can recovery from the bottom of FD, I think you can "recover" from falling off the edge once.

About comboing- Yes, the hitstun is the same. That will always be an issue. But you can't seriously expect me to believe that it doesn't help comboing by having them be knocked less distance. For example, many ariel combos dont exist because the opponent is hit TOO HIGH to be combo'd. Dont say they can just get out of the combo, that is always an issue, but its not always 100% that they can. This has always been like this. We're not talking about 0% kill combos here anyway...

There will always be small issues with things like this; bad recovery, easy death, getting out of intended combos. This will just help it. At least give it some time, at the least. Tournament at the side perhaps.

Oh, also about edgeguarding about being the new camping...
Edgeguarding is a scenario situation. Camping, on the other hand, can be done anywhere ona stage, aka FD or battlefield. With edgeguarding, you had to have gotten yourself into that situation, not have it an automatic happening. I'm not saying that it wont be popular to do this in heavy brawl once you actually have someone off the stage, but this cant be spammed without being stopped in some way.

Note: I read the whole thing, only some points I want to address because I'm pretty sure there's flaws in them.

The first line in the quote. Punishment means nothing to a casual player. This is generalizing, and wrong in most cases. Punishment for making a mistake is done by everyone. Punishment for using a Smart bomb would obviously be catching it, or throwing the owner into his own bomb. Punishment for using a giant mushroom would be to hide in the middle of them and deal random attacks. Punishment for using projectiles all time would be... well... Hard to come up with that one, but it would obviously be reflect if the person was a space animal.

Second up. Brawl is devoted to mind games. This is also false. I've argued mindgames before and it comes to a simple game of rock-paper-scissors. You got the attack, the attack's counter, and the counter's counter. Really doesn't leave up for much mindgames when you put it as blunt as that.

If an example is needed, here's one. Lucas spamming PK Fire against an Ice Climbers trying to push from the front. The counters branch off, but are countered in their own. Roll underneath the PK fire results in a stick to the face. Jumping over results in an Up Smash or PK thunder. Attack, counter, counter's counter.

Next up is instead of Heavy, why not just use metal? Metal adds one more thing people do not like at all and that's immovability. A metal bowser will not bounce two feets from standard attacks alone. Smash attacks will send him as far back as a tilt. Comparing Metal and Heavy is like comparing Paris Hilton and Hilary Duff. Also, people do not fall as fast in heavy brawl. Metal brawl will have people dropped like a lead weight.

Speaking of heavy brawl, characters with Aerial based combat would love to be able to have their opponent to fall into their next attack smoothly rather than them floating away.

Another point I would like to bring up. Brawl was meant to be played with the mind. Add in played with the mind lightly cause the way it came, this is not the case. Tripping has already been pointed out. Items, same with real life items, don't have to have some very intellectual person to use them. Final Smashes. These require no mind game at all unless you count running away and waiting for the correct time to use it a mind game.

Of course, I'm bringing items into the mix because you have said this is what brawl was made to be. A mindgame. This can not be true given the circumstances. A person does not think, if they do this , I'm going to do this, all the time. 50% of the time at best.

Last note. Combos are wanted in the game cause well.... Who wants to see a nintendo-rendition of Rock-Paper-Scissors with flashy attacks and voice acting? I would just go play Wario-Ware if I wanted it to be.

Listen to these guys. They speak the truth.

@Zig-Zag
Even if attempted to implement Heavy Brawl now, assuming it is a very good idea and the current physics completely suck, will take a while. First of all, the metagame has to develop to the point where everyone camps even MORE than now [don't really know the current situation], and the small one-two hit combos have to fade out due to the rapid increase in defensive maneuvers. On top of that, people have to have gotten VERY bored of regular Brawl. Secondly, not everyone agrees. If implemented, very few tournaments will have it, but if its a phenomenal success it will spread in maybe a month, but maybe longer depending to the amount of success and enjoyment.

Basically, even though I'm guessing, no change this drastic will happen overnight, you'd have to be STUPID to think that. It'd only be implemented if its really needed.

Again, more truth. I wouldn't have proposed Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard if I didn't think it was necessary. At this point, to a lot of competitive Smashers, this looks like a necessary step. However, if it turns out that somehow Brawl got out of this camping rut and actually evolved into a competitively varies and interesting metagame, then we can abandon this idea.

But I don't see that happening anytime soon. There's simply far too much evidence, both practical, theoretical, and present in the game's physics itself, that makes me think that regular Brawl is going to continue to degenerate into a campfest of boredom.

 

[JugaBro]

Easy! If two tournaments are held for brawl, one heavy and one not, the amount of Johns will increase with lines such as the following:

-'I could beat you if this was heavy brawl'
-'My character dropped too fast, no fair'
-'Try sucking in helium, I heard it makes you float more'

Seriously now, I don't want anymore Johns than the next person ._.

Same here, but come on. That would just be immature. (Unless your just joking around...)

 

[Nitoheilapine]

Same here, but come on. That would just be immature. (Unless your just joking around...)

Yea I'm joking ^^! Now I would just die of laughter if I actually heard those lines in a real tournament.

 

[Ferith]

Note: I read the whole thing, only some points I want to address because I'm pretty sure there's flaws in them.

The first line in the quote. Punishment means nothing to a casual player. This is generalizing, and wrong in most cases. Punishment for making a mistake is done by everyone. Punishment for using a Smart bomb would obviously be catching it, or throwing the owner into his own bomb. Punishment for using a giant mushroom would be to hide in the middle of them and deal random attacks. Punishment for using projectiles all time would be... well... Hard to come up with that one, but it would obviously be reflect if the person was a space animal.
You're just word-picking right there. Nothing is clearly an exxaturation meant to emphasize a point- a casual player likely doesn't care about mindgames or punishment (in the mindgames sense) because they're a CASUAL player.

Second up. Brawl is devoted to mind games. This is also false. I've argued mindgames before and it comes to a simple game of rock-paper-scissors. You got the attack, the attack's counter, and the counter's counter. Really doesn't leave up for much mindgames when you put it as blunt as that.
Yes, mindgames ARE a game of RPS- but far more complex than that. You have four ways to attack, their counters, and the counters counters. Now you have to predict based on fighting style what they're about to do and attack before they do it, all in seconds or less. This is hardly simple.

If an example is needed, here's one. Lucas spamming PK Fire against an Ice Climbers trying to push from the front. The counters branch off, but are countered in their own. Roll underneath the PK fire results in a stick to the face. Jumping over results in an Up Smash or PK thunder. Attack, counter, counter's counter.
Why can't Ice Climbers use their B-Button? Thise releases two freezie-shaped projectiles. One takes the PK Fire, the other continues its path forcing Lucas into the defensive stance and allowing Ice Climbers to begin an offensive. Your view of the situation was extremely limiting and completely ignored this approach- showing there is clearly more to things than simply "attack one way or the other"

Next up is instead of Heavy, why not just use metal? Metal adds one more thing people do not like at all and that's immovability. A metal bowser will not bounce two feets from standard attacks alone. Smash attacks will send him as far back as a tilt. Comparing Metal and Heavy is like comparing Paris Hilton and Hilary Duff. Also, people do not fall as fast in heavy brawl. Metal brawl will have people dropped like a lead weight.
Metal was used as an example to make a point- not a serious suggestion. The point was that it changes the gameplay focus- as you also acknowledge. Heavy Brawl does the same thing- it changes the focus of the game from one style to another.

Speaking of heavy brawl, characters with Aerial based combat would love to be able to have their opponent to fall into their next attack smoothly rather than them floating away.
That's hardly the case. Say I'm Jigglypuff, and I've knocked Ike off the edge. He's beginning to recover, but I'm in the air. I use her Pound attack repeatedly and eventually send him spiraling in an unfavorable position, resulting in his death. Then, I jump back and wait for round two, where I abuse this tactic until victory. In Heavy Brawl, this tactic is now unfavorable and could possibly kill me- and furthermore as a Luigi player I've now got a nerf on the number of moves I can pull off. As a Luigi player I could normally pull off four or five in the air with ease, however now my count gets cut in half- once again, Luigi's typical style is battered, and since he's always been floaty- even with Melee physics- this totally ruins the entire character. He's BUILT around being floaty- this is a disadvantage, not an advantage.

Another point I would like to bring up. Brawl was meant to be played with the mind. Add in played with the mind lightly cause the way it came, this is not the case. Tripping has already been pointed out. Items, same with real life items, don't have to have some very intellectual person to use them. Final Smashes. These require no mind game at all unless you count running away and waiting for the correct time to use it a mind game.
Are we talking about the competitive or the casual scene now? In the competitive scene all unfair advantages are ruled out, thus stage and item limiations. However, since your argument seems based on the fact a feature is INCLUDED thus it was MEANT to be used COMPETITIVELY I shall say that we should have one-stock Smash Ball High fights with Marth. This makes the game into get the smash ball first- that's fun right? Please, unfair advantages are taken out of competitive play and are togglable for a reason. They are in regular smash just as well, and togglable there. We might as well play coin matches- because they're in there and MEANT to be played that way right? Heavy provides unfair advantages to certainc haracters- as a result it SHOULD be taken out LIKE items and smash balls, and some stages.

Of course, I'm bringing items into the mix because you have said this is what brawl was made to be. A mindgame. This can not be true given the circumstances. A person does not think, if they do this , I'm going to do this, all the time. 50% of the time at best.
That's the entire purpose of risk-reward.

Last note. Combos are wanted in the game cause well.... Who wants to see a nintendo-rendition of Rock-Paper-Scissors with flashy attacks and voice acting? I would just go play Wario-Ware if I wanted it to be.
That's what most fighter games are. You've taken out items and the unfair crazy stages, so things are limited. You are intentionally making it MORE of an RPS game. If you want to see a flashy combo heavy game, I recommend Guilty Gear.

My reply would've been sooner if my comp hadn't lagged it up.

 

[yWizePapaSmurfy]

Experimenting with Heavy Brawl now, after all the arguments I think it's worth it...Think this can also make one better at normal Brawl play?

I agree all-too-much that the approach game his hideous in normal Brawl.

 

[M.K]

Ok, it's camping, not being 4-stocked, not auto-kill, not Sudden Death, not random falling bombs of haxx. It's really NOT THAT HARD to overcome. We don't have to change the entire physics of the game in order to overcome this.

 

[Zig-Zag!]

@Zig-Zag
Even if attempted to implement Heavy Brawl now, assuming it is a very good idea and the current physics completely suck, will take a while. First of all, the metagame has to develop to the point where everyone camps even MORE than now [don't really know the current situation], and the small one-two hit combos have to fade out due to the rapid increase in defensive maneuvers. On top of that, people have to have gotten VERY bored of regular Brawl. Secondly, not everyone agrees. If implemented, very few tournaments will have it, but if its a phenomenal success it will spread in maybe a month, but maybe longer depending to the amount of success and enjoyment.

Who camps? I dont camp. I do pretty well for myself in smash brothers, and I am not bored with regular brawl at all. You remind me of the people who proclaimed shiek the end all, broken master of melee around 2003.

What tournaments have you been to? What have you won? Im just wondering...you seem to have a lot of influence if you believe heavy mode would spread in "maybe a month"

 

[M.K]

Anyone who isn't a Snake or ROB Mainer that camps should and could be easily approached. I don't see the HUGE problem that we need to correct by ALTERING THE GRAVITY!

 

[DRaGZ]

My reply would've been sooner if my comp hadn't lagged it up.

Actually, the Ice Climbers Glaciers tend to just bounce back, so the first one will just break the other. (I could be wrong when it comes to PK fire though)

I think you're still missing the point. Yes, Heavy Brawl does change the gameplay focus. That was the entire point. We're trying to shift focus away from camping and towards a balance between offense and defense. Regular Brawl is heavily defensive based. Heavy Brawl is very balanced in terms of gameplay.

Technically regular Brawl is competitive, yes. But it's competitive in the sense that one person will eventually outcamp the other. That's technically competitive, it's also technically boring as hell. Heavy Brawl, on the other hand, promotes both approaching and defending properly. The extra falling speed makes it so that you must time all of your attacks and techniques, defensive or otherwise, to be effective, thus a punishment game actually exists. If there is no punishment game, we just have long strings of guessing games, and that's just a boring tug-of-war no one wants to endure.

Regular Brawl reminds me of a Korean variation of rock paper scissors called "Mook Chi Pah". Basically, both players shoot either rock, paper, or scissors. The person who has the advantage after shooting can then call the next thing he does as he changes, upon which the person at the disadvantage must also change. The point of the game is for the person in the advantage to try to get the person in the disadvantage to switch to the same symbol you're making.

Here's an example:

Shoot 1: Player 1 gets rock, Player 2 gets paper. Player 2 is at the advantage.
Shoot 2: Player 2 attempts a juke and shoots paper. Player 1, scared stays rock. Player 2 advantage.
Shoot 3: Player 2 shoots scissors. Player 1 stays rock. Player 1 advantage.
Shoot 4: Player 1 shoot rock. Player 2 also shot rock. Player 1 has won.

This is what combos in regular Brawl look like. It's a string of guessing games, and it's not worth for an approacher to put himself in this position when he can just camp and give himself an advantage for doing so.

I don't know what you're talking about with Jigglypuff. I SUCKED with Jigglypuff in regular Brawl and now I rock extremely hard with her in Heavy Brawl (I have considered making her a secondary). Her wall of pain is now very difficult to get past, and you can literally wall of pain a character off of the stage and keep him there and still have enough puffs and pounds for recovery. Jigglypuff is amazing.

I don't know much about Luigi, but what's the matter with landing with him? Luigi's aerials seems to have very low landing lag to begin with, so I think it's acceptable to do two or three hits, fast fall, then jump again for more hits. Heavy Brawl certainly makes it fast enough for this to work.

Also, I don't think you have any idea whatsoever about why items and certain stages were banned.

Items are random. No matter how you put it, no matter how impartial the item itself may be, they spawn randomly. Random elements detract from competitive play. Thus, items were turned off.

Stage banning was done for more complex reasons. Hyrule Temple was banned because it was large enough to promote hit-and-run tactics while keeping onself alive through teching in the "Cave of Immortality". All walk-off stages were banned because camping allowed a good backthrow to cost a stock. Some stages were just plain too dangerous to play on because of all the hazards strewn everywhere.

Heavy Brawl nerfs everyone while buffing everyone (each to different degrees). It doesn't make anyone any more cheap or any less cheap, rather it takes away recovery options, which were already godly in this game anyway, and provides more offensive options, which this game sorely needed. Heavy Brawl is not random, it promotes a balance of offense and defense, it discourages hardcore camping, and it has nothing to do with random stage hazards.

 

[M.K]

Heavy Brawl nerfs everyone while buffing everyone (each to different degrees). It doesn't make anyone any more cheap or any less cheap, rather it takes away recovery options, which were already godly in this game anyway, and provides more offensive options, which this game sorely needed. Heavy Brawl is not random, it promotes a balance of offense and defense, it discourages hardcore camping, and it has nothing to do with random stage hazards.

How can you say that some characters will be buffed and nerfed to different degrees, and then go on to say how a character couldn't be more or less cheap. King Dedede loses all possible recovery option when he gets knocked below the stage. Don't even tell me that's not the case, because I've practiced. Don't even get me started on Sonic and Wario either. You're main might be better, oh, and go play Melee. This is all what it boils down to. Why try to fix this "supposedly OMG campy and OMG No combo booooo" game when you have Melee, the game you love with all the combos than you can shake a Chinese Resteraunt at.

 

[DRaGZ]

Okay.

This is really starting to piss me off.

Especially since the naysayers don't seem to understand what the **** I'm trying to say no matter how many times I try to say it.

But I'm going to try to do this is calmly as possible.

The problem isn't that we can't overcome campers in regular Brawl. We already can. I know that I, for one, already can. But overcoming camping is only one part of the problem. For one, it isn't worth it because the amount of damage taken usually isn't worth the amount of damage you can inflict. Once you manage to approach properly, there is no punishment possible against the camper since he can escape really easily. Heavy Brawl remedies for the myriad of reasons I've stated so many times before.

Also. One thing people don't seem to understand a ****'s worth a ****...

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

Did you read that? I don't think you did. So I'm going to post it a few more times.

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

Projectile spamming is just one part of camping. Obviously R.O.B., Snake, and Toon Link can do this. But Wolf can also camp. So can Metaknight. So can Pit. So can Marth. Mr. Game and Watch just might the greatest camper of them all.

Do you get it? Did you read it? Do you understand the ****ing concept?

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

OKAY?

And Zig-Zag!, try camping yourself. Try getting good at it. Then you'll realize why it's just a god**** ****ty part about this game: it's just waaaay too good.

How can you say that some characters will be buffed and nerfed to different degrees, and then go on to say how a character couldn't be more or less cheap. King Dedede loses all possible recovery option when he gets knocked below the stage. Don't even tell me that's not the case, because I've practiced. Don't even get me started on Sonic and Wario either. You're main might be better, oh, and go play Melee. This is all what it boils down to. Why try to fix this "supposedly OMG campy and OMG No combo booooo" game when you have Melee, the game you love with all the combos than you can shake a Chinese Resteraunt at.

Why is it so important that a character can recover when he's below the stage? And that has nothing to do with how powerful his approaches have become now: by the time you're in the position where you're below the stage you'll have already done a great deal of damage, and probably KOs, yourself. Oh boo-hoo, I fell beneath the stage, I can't come back anymore, it doesn't matter that I'm now a KOing machine, I want my godly recovery back that lets me travel to distant planets and return without ever hitting the ground.

And no, my mains didn't exactly get better. Toon Link can't camp anymore, so he has to have a much tighter approach game. Wolf is very difficult to use in Heavy Brawl, he takes time to master. Ganondorf requires extremely precise timing to win. Lucario requires extremely precise use of his Up+B to recover now. These are my most used characters, and they've all been nerfed in recovery but buffed in offensive capabilities.

And I don't want to play Melee. Are you going to keep saying that? Why do you keep saying that? It's obvious I don't want to play Melee. I want to play BRAWL. I want to play COMPETITIVE BRAWL. Heavy Brawl is far more competitive than regular Brawl.

And I don't know why people keep saying Wario's recovery sucks. He's awesome.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Could anyone re-explain to me why approaching is supposedly so hard?

 

[Superstar]

Who camps? I dont camp. I do pretty well for myself in smash brothers, and I am not bored with regular brawl at all. You remind me of the people who proclaimed shiek the end all, broken master of melee around 2003.

What tournaments have you been to? What have you won? Im just wondering...you seem to have a lot of influence if you believe heavy mode would spread in "maybe a month"

Notice how I said assuming the previous things are true, and also "phenominal" success.

but if its a phenomenal success

If its just a normal success, or its just normal better it would take a LOOOOOOT more than a month to spread, I'm not stupid.

but maybe longer depending to the amount of success and enjoyment.

And my brother camps with Pikachu. just to get the deadly chaingrab on Fox. It can be done in Heavy Mode as well, but meh.

 

[Anth0ny]

Okay.

This is really starting to piss me off.

Especially since the naysayers don't seem to understand what the **** I'm trying to say no matter how many times I try to say it.

But I'm going to try to do this is calmly as possible.

The problem isn't that we can't overcome campers in regular Brawl. We already can. I know that I, for one, already can. But overcoming camping is only one part of the problem. For one, it isn't worth it because the amount of damage taken usually isn't worth the amount of damage you can inflict. Once you manage to approach properly, there is no punishment possible against the camper since he can escape really easily. Heavy Brawl remedies for the myriad of reasons I've stated so many times before.

Also. One thing people don't seem to understand a ****'s worth a ****...

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

Did you read that? I don't think you did. So I'm going to post it a few more times.

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

Projectile spamming is just one part of camping. Obviously R.O.B., Snake, and Toon Link can do this. But Wolf can also camp. So can Metaknight. So can Pit. So can Marth. Mr. Game and Watch just might the greatest camper of them all.

Do you get it? Did you read it? Do you understand the ****ing concept?

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

OKAY?

And Zig-Zag!, try camping yourself. Try getting good at it. Then you'll realize why it's just a god**** ****ty part about this game: it's just waaaay too good.

I don't get it.

Nah, just kidding But I support Heavy Brawl. I just played for an hour or two with some friends and it's great. So much edgehogging

 

[M.K]

Okay.

This is really starting to piss me off.

Especially since the naysayers don't seem to understand what the **** I'm trying to say no matter how many times I try to say it.

But I'm going to try to do this is calmly as possible.

The problem isn't that we can't overcome campers in regular Brawl. We already can. I know that I, for one, already can. But overcoming camping is only one part of the problem. For one, it isn't worth it because the amount of damage taken usually isn't worth the amount of damage you can inflict. Once you manage to approach properly, there is no punishment possible against the camper since he can escape really easily. Heavy Brawl remedies for the myriad of reasons I've stated so many times before.

Also. One thing people don't seem to understand a ****'s worth a ****...

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

Did you read that? I don't think you did. So I'm going to post it a few more times.

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

Projectile spamming is just one part of camping. Obviously R.O.B., Snake, and Toon Link can do this. But Wolf can also camp. So can Metaknight. So can Pit. So can Marth. Mr. Game and Watch just might the greatest camper of them all.

Do you get it? Did you read it? Do you understand the ****ing concept?

CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING
CAMPING =/= PROJECTILE SPAMMING

OKAY?

And Zig-Zag!, try camping yourself. Try getting good at it. Then you'll realize why it's just a god**** ****ty part about this game: it's just waaaay too good.

Wow, way to show yourself off maturely. You are making a fool of yourself in order to establish a moot point. Find a way to overcome it. You are being LAZY, do you honestly think us Olimar-mainers just sit around going "WAAHHHHHH TETHER RECOVERY SUCKS WAAHHHHH WE NEED LIGHT GRAVITY TO OVERCOME IT ZOMG WTFFFFFFFFFF EVEYIONE ELSE BUT US SUXKKK". Absolutely not, because there are ways to overcome our weakness, have fun trying to find the ladder to your destination.

 

[JugaBro]

My reply would've been sooner if my comp hadn't lagged it up.

You also make many good points here, but are yet not enough for me.

"Why can't Ice Climbers use their B-Button? Thise releases two freezie-shaped projectiles. One takes the PK Fire, the other continues its path forcing Lucas into the defensive stance and allowing Ice Climbers to begin an offensive. Your view of the situation was extremely limiting and completely ignored this approach- showing there is clearly more to things than simply "attack one way or the other" "

Not bad. Using one of the ONLY example for projective vr projective as a justification for mindgames. Not saying that this isn't a mindgame, but it's not so easy for every single character. Mabey your just saying that to show that not everything is so simple (well, you are showing that), but trying to use this wont change the facts. Using a single situation, Lucas vr Iceclimbers wont change the facts. For example, lets say the iceclimbers can do that to Lucas, a great mindgame. Who else can? Another projective spammer? Pit, mabey? Are you saying that we should leave it to certain characters to fight these spammers, letting others die? Even things like Pits shield and the iceclimbers tactic aren't foolproof. I do understand why you are saying that things aren't so simple, but in many cases they are, some things, such as Toon Link spamming bombs/boomerang/arrows cant be stopped by a majority of characters.

"Heavy Brawl does the same thing- it changes the focus of the game from one style to another."

Changes the focus of the game? You mean from projectile spamming, and hit and run, to comboing and true mindgames? You mean from spamming so you can smash attack for a one hit kill, instead of actually being able to edgeguard in this game? I think I'd rather like the focus changed this way, wouldn't you?

"That's hardly the case. Say I'm Jigglypuff, and I've knocked Ike off the edge. He's beginning to recover, but I'm in the air. I use her Pound attack repeatedly and eventually send him spiraling in an unfavorable position, resulting in his death. Then, I jump back and wait for round two, where I abuse this tactic until victory. In Heavy Brawl, this tactic is now unfavorable and could possibly kill me- and furthermore as a Luigi player I've now got a nerf on the number of moves I can pull off. As a Luigi player I could normally pull off four or five in the air with ease, however now my count gets cut in half- once again, Luigi's typical style is battered, and since he's always been floaty- even with Melee physics- this totally ruins the entire character. He's BUILT around being floaty- this is a disadvantage, not an advantage."

Yes, some of the tactics used in normal Brawl may not become perfectly valid when used in heavy. Of course, the type your talking about is one type, which deals with KO'ing with edgeguarding. So you cant stay down below a stage and spike them, losing your opportunity to edgeguard them? NO. Dont you understand that Heavy Brawl helps make edgeguarding a more viable and usefull choice? And how many times have you actually had to edgeguard in normal brawl, where almost everyone can recover perfectly? How many times would someone get caught in the same tactic with Jiggly, anyway? That's just another tactic changed, but the actuality of edgeguarding is still there. Dont get me started on Luigi, I main Luigi. I'm not a professional Brawl Luigi player, but I know that he is good in the air. That is a fact, and you realize that. Realy- how many times do you spam the same move in the air with Luigi before landing, anyway? I usualy do one short hopped ariel at a time. What kind of tactic revolves around jumping and doing a fair or bair 4 times in a row while in the air, and actually hitting them every time? I would want a video of this tactic, because as far as I can tell, Luigi users dont play this way, at least checking their forums often. And also, just because he was built a certain way does not advocate spamming a move in the air 4 times in a row. I rather like Luigi in heavy.

"Are we talking about the competitive or the casual scene now? In the competitive scene all unfair advantages are ruled out, thus stage and item limiations. However, since your argument seems based on the fact a feature is INCLUDED thus it was MEANT to be used COMPETITIVELY I shall say that we should have one-stock Smash Ball High fights with Marth. This makes the game into get the smash ball first- that's fun right? Please, unfair advantages are taken out of competitive play and are togglable for a reason. They are in regular smash just as well, and togglable there. We might as well play coin matches- because they're in there and MEANT to be played that way right? Heavy provides unfair advantages to certainc haracters- as a result it SHOULD be taken out LIKE items and smash balls, and some stages."

I got slightly confused by the message of the person you were refuting, and your message back, since they didn't seem to mix (he didn't seem to be advocating the fact that something in the game should be used, he was talking about things in there should be taken out, wasn't he? You were technically stating the same thing he was. that things like smash balls are not needed because they take no mental power/ thought to use and cause damage? Mabey I'm confused, please correct me if I am and how so.)

Anyway, everything else you posted speaks for itself, realy.

 

[DRaGZ]

Wow, way to show yourself off maturely. You are making a fool of yourself in order to establish a moot point. Find a way to overcome it. You are being LAZY, do you honestly think us Olimar-mainers just sit around going "WAAHHHHHH TETHER RECOVERY SUCKS WAAHHHHH WE NEED LIGHT GRAVITY TO OVERCOME IT ZOMG WTFFFFFFFFFF EVEYIONE ELSE BUT US SUXKKK". Absolutely not, because there are ways to overcome our weakness, have fun trying to find the ladder to your destination.

I'm just going to quote myself from the post right before you that you seemed to have missed entirely somehow.

The problem isn't that we can't overcome campers in regular Brawl. We already can. I know that I, for one, already can. But overcoming camping is only one part of the problem. For one, it isn't worth it because the amount of damage taken usually isn't worth the amount of damage you can inflict. Once you manage to approach properly, there is no punishment possible against the camper since he can escape really easily. Heavy Brawl remedies for the myriad of reasons I've stated so many times before.

And, if I remember correctly, you're the one doing the boo-hooing. I've identified a problem and tried to come up with a solution. You came up with a problem and...complained. That's real productive.

 

[Zig-Zag!]

Notice how I said assuming the previous things are true, and also "phenominal" success.



If its just a normal success, or its just normal better it would take a LOOOOOOT more than a month to spread, I'm not stupid.



And my brother camps with Pikachu. just to get the deadly chaingrab on Fox. It can be done in Heavy Mode as well, but meh.

What is "phenominal" success? Are we gonna have a heavy mode tournament where Sakurai, President Bush, and Bono all enter, thus making it a huge success? Will holding a heavy mode tournament, somehow, yield the cure to cancer somewhere in the semi-finals?

What the **** is a "phenominal success"?

Hit the dude off the ****ing stage with your favorite nintendo character.

Seriously guys.

Seriously.

 

[JugaBro]

Wow, way to show yourself off maturely. You are making a fool of yourself in order to establish a moot point. Find a way to overcome it. You are being LAZY, do you honestly think us Olimar-mainers just sit around going "WAAHHHHHH TETHER RECOVERY SUCKS WAAHHHHH WE NEED LIGHT GRAVITY TO OVERCOME IT ZOMG WTFFFFFFFFFF EVEYIONE ELSE BUT US SUXKKK". Absolutely not, because there are ways to overcome our weakness, have fun trying to find the ladder to your destination.

He was a bit over, but he is just frustrated as I am by many of the posts people have decided throw in this thread. We are not just complaining about something that makes us worse and want to change it. We are talking about something that WE do, that OTHERS do, that many, many people do, that make this game less competitive, less fun, and overall just plain boring. Oh, sure, there are ways to overcome camping (and to let you know camping isn't what this whole thread is about, it's just one part), but how many are truely effective, and how many do it without more risk to yourself? What happens is that games become camping vr camping to deal with the imbalance. We all know the game was created more defencivly, with less reward for being offensive. Camping is one of those things.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Could anyone re-explain to me why approaching is supposedly so hard?

Hmm... I'd say this gentleman deserves to have his question answered.

 

[DRaGZ]

What is "phenominal" success? Are we gonna have a heavy mode tournament where Sakurai, President Bush, and Bono all enter, thus making it a huge success? Will holding a heavy mode tournament, somehow, yield the cure to cancer somewhere in the semi-finals?

What the **** is a "phenominal success"?

Hit the dude off the ****ing stage with your favorite nintendo character.

Seriously guys.

Seriously.

If President Bush and Bono entered a Brawl tournament, I would stay the hell away...

But seriously, all we need is at least one Heavy Brawl tournament to prove that the concept and, as I will predict, work well. That would be enough to at least discussion going amongst other circles.