Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[Papapaint]

We don't need a new advanced tech- just a new strategy. A way around camping, and to do that we need a feel of the game and time.

I will say that there are some very valid points and concerns made here, however anything can be stopped in a fighting game.

You didn't read my post.

The problem is not even camping. It's that defensive players always--no matter what strategies you can come up with--have a mathematical advantage.

Your argument is as valid as someone saying "Well... I didn't win the lottery today. But by god, tomorrow I'll find a winning ticket." The math is against you.

 

[Rebonack]

I suppose I have one more thing to say before I retire.

Far too many people seem to be under the impression that those who favor Heavy Brawl do so because camping is 'unbeatable'. Nothing could be further from the truth. Camping isn't unbeatable, rather it provides the greatest benefit (the most damage to your opponent) while placing yourself at the least risk.

In other words camping is the best method to rack up more damage than your opponent does.

This is all a direct result of the relative weakness of both approach and punishment. Learning how to 'get around' camping won't stop it from granting better risk/reward than offensive strategies. Since camping is the best way to win and many players don't like camping Heavy Brawl is suggested as a way to balance offense and defense and thus make the game deeper and ostensibly more fun.

Personally, as a non-competitive player, I enjoy Heavy Brawl because it allows edge guarding to be a viable strategy. The fact that most characters could recover from being punted in mid-air several times and still just float back to the ledge is annoying. And before anyone wants to point out that I should just play a different game if I don't like it I think I'll say in advance that I would prefer to simply use one of the myriad options for granting variety to game play. Namely Heavy Brawl.

 

[Papapaint]

Wow, I can't believe this was typed. Someone wants a magic bullet that solves camping? Please. I want a magic bullet that solves combos in Heavy Brawl.

I think my position could be summarized in such a way:

Heavy Brawl doesn't solve anything. The problems that plague Standard Brawl, problems as you see them, are prevalent in Heavy Brawl, they're just less pronounced, because you're ignoring them. I can still fire off a ton of arrows when I'm Pit and an enemy is recovering. I can still run away and continue projectile spamming, with the same accuracy, the same lame run-away stun, and the matches still take the same amount of time.

Perhaps I haven't been fighting the elite, my friends and I were tournament-goers, but never made fame, we started after Brawl had already been announced - however, we're no pushovers. Largely the camping strategy doesn't work with us, maybe I'm not doing it right.

I'm just not seeing a solution to these 'flaws' coming from Heavy Brawl. Camping can be solved by jumping into the opponent and slamming their face. You get spot-dodged, you get punished, learn to feel out the opponent.

I guess this is one of those "You're having a problem playing game X, I'll keep playing Brawl." I don't find that anyone in my circle is overly campy, and when I tried to mimic the strategy, I failed. Ike clotheslined me so quick I didn't know what truck had hit me. Faster characters danced around these killer arrows of camping doom on the approach. It didn't always end in an untimely death, but I never got rewarded the way you gentlemen prior in the thread suppose.

Camping isn't a magic bullet to solve gameplay. You can't just camp and win. You have to camp strategically, and in the end, you get hit, just like everyone else. Sure, try and camp, but you're going to have to stop camping sometime. Offense is necessary to kill your opponents.

Fox storms in with a DThrow, tech chases into a Waveshine, follows through with a Waveshine until you're off the stage, and shines you to death. Instead of camping, he Waveshined you, similar problem, but no one supposed that we should play on Training Mode on x2 Speed to make the move harder to pull off. Competitive play will arise out of Brawl, why? Because it's Melee 2. It may not have the tech-heavy aspect, but it's not like the games are piss-poor to watch, be a part of, or they are shallow.

At work, I play with some hardcore Melee gamers, we have 15-minute breaks. We play Brawl with 3 Stock and a timer set to 3 minutes (With player swapping and time between matches, we can get in three rounds[!]). We have only hit the time twice in all the time we've been playing. Once when we accidentally picked Temple, and once when we all picked Kirby. I don't understand how a bunch of 'pros' can't finish a 3-stock match in under 5 minutes on a standard stage like FD, Battlefield, or Smashville.

Maybe in my next post I'll address some of the random people who've been sniping at me. (Take that with a grain of salt gentlemen, I was joking)

Camping isn't projectile spamming. This post isn't an argument, it's a failure to read other posts.

 

[Ferith]

Luigi is majorly buffed. He's actually one of the best characters. He retains his floatiness, still has his awesome recovery, and can combo like a beast.

I know this for sure. I mained Luigi in 64 and melee, and was determined to stick with him in brawl. My in-game tag is "Homo" because I played pink luigi. I study luigi extensively in both melee and brawl.

Believe me. He gets buffed.

I also wrote the guide to falco in the falco section. I know falco's moves down to the frame. I know exactly how they lag, exactly how they connect, and exactly how they chain. He was buffed even more than luigi by heavy brawl.

Also, the idea that you can "mindgame" defensive players doesn't hold up so well in practice. You have to mindgame, all they have to do is watch. Maybe you'll get one hit in. But against someone just as good as you, you'll take far more.

I mained Luigi in Melee, but will admit that all my posts concerning buffs/nerfs were mainly theory as I haven't extensively tested them yet. However- slow characters would definately be on the bad end of the stick for their lower ability to combo.

My views on playing heavy brawl are the opposite- it should be played at home with friends, not in the tourney setting. If everyone is buffed to different extents, then it's still an imbalance. Arial combatants are either on the high end or low end of the stick respectively, and although it balances offense/defense, it does so by imbalancing other aspects of the game.

 

[paper_crane]

But when you two are at close range isn't it more about the better player? Its not like theres some end all thing you can always do out of shield.

The camper probably has a damage lead by the attacker reaches him. Let's say the camper is on the left side of FD, and the attacker is on the right. The camper is spamming projectiles, and the attacker is trying to wade through. The attacker takes a total of 10% damage from projectiles before he gets within melee range.

At this point, if the attacker lands a single hit on the camper for 10%, he breaks even. In the less probable event that the attacker gets two hits in a row for 20%, he is now 10% ahead. But if the camper instead lands just one hit for 10%, the camper is now 20% ahead. If we go by these numbers, the attacker has to work twice as hard for half the reward. And either way, after this brief melee exchange, the situation resets and the fighters will be separated, and the attacker will again be forced to wade through more projectiles.

One of the ideas of Heavy Brawl is to reward the attacker more generously for making correct choices. If the attacker, for example, could deal upwards of 30% each time he penetrated the camper's defenses, and the attacker takes only 10% damage in the process, camping would no longer be such a dominant strategy.

If everyone is buffed to different extents, then it's still an imbalance. Arial combatants are either on the high end or low end of the stick respectively, and although it balances offense/defense, it does so by imbalancing other aspects of the game.

Noticeable imbalance exists even in standard Brawl, and if I were forced to choose between an imbalanced campfest and an imbalanced fighter with viable offensive and defensive options, I'd definitely choose the latter.

 

[DRaGZ]

Wow, I can't believe this was typed. Someone wants a magic bullet that solves camping? Please. I want a magic bullet that solves combos in Heavy Brawl.

I think my position could be summarized in such a way:

Heavy Brawl doesn't solve anything. The problems that plague Standard Brawl, problems as you see them, are prevalent in Heavy Brawl, they're just less pronounced, because you're ignoring them. I can still fire off a ton of arrows when I'm Pit and an enemy is recovering. I can still run away and continue projectile spamming, with the same accuracy, the same lame run-away stun, and the matches still take the same amount of time.

Perhaps I haven't been fighting the elite, my friends and I were tournament-goers, but never made fame, we started after Brawl had already been announced - however, we're no pushovers. Largely the camping strategy doesn't work with us, maybe I'm not doing it right.

I'm just not seeing a solution to these 'flaws' coming from Heavy Brawl. Camping can be solved by jumping into the opponent and slamming their face. You get spot-dodged, you get punished, learn to feel out the opponent.

I guess this is one of those "You're having a problem playing game X, I'll keep playing Brawl." I don't find that anyone in my circle is overly campy, and when I tried to mimic the strategy, I failed. Ike clotheslined me so quick I didn't know what truck had hit me. Faster characters danced around these killer arrows of camping doom on the approach. It didn't always end in an untimely death, but I never got rewarded the way you gentlemen prior in the thread suppose.

Camping isn't a magic bullet to solve gameplay. You can't just camp and win. You have to camp strategically, and in the end, you get hit, just like everyone else. Sure, try and camp, but you're going to have to stop camping sometime. Offense is necessary to kill your opponents.

Fox storms in with a DThrow, tech chases into a Waveshine, follows through with a Waveshine until you're off the stage, and shines you to death. Instead of camping, he Waveshined you, similar problem, but no one supposed that we should play on Training Mode on x2 Speed to make the move harder to pull off. Competitive play will arise out of Brawl, why? Because it's Melee 2. It may not have the tech-heavy aspect, but it's not like the games are piss-poor to watch, be a part of, or they are shallow.

At work, I play with some hardcore Melee gamers, we have 15-minute breaks. We play Brawl with 3 Stock and a timer set to 3 minutes (With player swapping and time between matches, we can get in three rounds[!]). We have only hit the time twice in all the time we've been playing. Once when we accidentally picked Temple, and once when we all picked Kirby. I don't understand how a bunch of 'pros' can't finish a 3-stock match in under 5 minutes on a standard stage like FD, Battlefield, or Smashville.

Maybe in my next post I'll address some of the random people who've been sniping at me. (Take that with a grain of salt gentlemen, I was joking)

The "slamming their face" line made me literally lol.

This is also the first time I've heard someone actually say that Brawl is Melee 2.0. That's an interesting angle.

And like almightypancake pointed it out in a much more clearer fashion than I, this is not just about camping. This is about having way too many defensive options. And we're not just talking about projectile spamming.

Projectile spamming =/= camping.

Chances are, I think, that if I watched one of your games I will find elements of camping. And by elements, I mean large portions where someone is literally just sitting in a spot and defending himself very well while the approacher is punished for attempting to approach.

Jeez, im sorry I don't browse through Smashboards very often. All the arguing discourages me.

Sorry, I think I came off as mean. I was just surprised.

 

[Ferith]

You didn't read my post.

The problem is not even camping. It's that defensive players always--no matter what strategies you can come up with--have a mathematical advantage.

Your argument is as valid as someone saying "Well... I didn't win the lottery today. But by god, tomorrow I'll find a winning ticket." The math is against you.

I apologize for missing your point.

This is where strategy plays it's part- the better player will know that playing defensively is statistically better, but he'll also know how to fight such strategies and adapt. I agree that this is probably a large fault in Brawl, however I have yet to find camping a true problem. You are balancing offense/defense by imbalancing speed/power and arial/ground respectively- either way someone loses out.

 

[DRaGZ]

I mained Luigi in Melee, but will admit that all my posts concerning buffs/nerfs were mainly theory as I haven't extensively tested them yet. However- slow characters would definately be on the bad end of the stick for their lower ability to combo.

My views on playing heavy brawl are the opposite- it should be played at home with friends, not in the tourney setting. If everyone is buffed to different extents, then it's still an imbalance. Arial combatants are either on the high end or low end of the stick respectively, and although it balances offense/defense, it does so by imbalancing other aspects of the game.

Ganondorf actually combos more easily. I know: I play with him very often.

The only possible imbalances I am seeing are character match-ups. Brawl, to begin with, isn't very balanced in terms of character match-ups either. Hell, one of the most competitive fighting games ever, MvC2, has only about 4-6 characters that are used in competitive play. Character imbalance has little to do with good competitive gameplay mechanics.

 

[Corigames]

Luigi is majorly buffed. He's actually one of the best characters. He retains his floatiness, still has his awesome recovery, and can combo like a beast.

I know this for sure. I mained Luigi in 64 and melee, and was determined to stick with him in brawl..

Well, now it's obvious why you are backing this preposterous idea of tournament play.

 

[Papapaint]

I apologize for missing your point.

This is where strategy plays it's part- the better player will know that playing defensively is statistically better, but he'll also know how to fight such strategies and adapt. I agree that this is probably a large fault in Brawl, however I have yet to find camping a true problem. You are balancing offense/defense by imbalancing speed/power and arial/ground respectively- either way someone loses out.

Offense and defense aren't balanced. Defense is overpowered. Mathematically and in practice.

I was 7th on Wifi war's league simple because I'd always play defensively. I'd be among the first to admit I'm no smash god. I'm not bad, but I certainly didn't deserve a top 10 ranking. The only times I lost were times when I'd play Marth. I'd get incredibly frustrated because I could feel myself playing intelligently, and yet I always seemed to be at a disadvantage.

However, when I played falco, I tended to play far more defensively. The only times I lost were the games in which I would get frustrated and move to the offensive.

I've played against the top Wifi wars players. They all play defensively. There simply aren't enough "mindgames", or approach options, for the attacking player to ever be at an advantage. Ever.

 

[Papapaint]

Well, now it's obvious why you are backing this preposterous idea of tournament play.

Right. Not because of all the fully-explored, well explained reasons I listed in my big long previous posts. I'm just a selfish bigot.

And Dragz is lying. He actually mains luigi too.

In fact, this whole "heavy brawl" thing... it's all just a conspiracy to get luigi to top tier.

 

[DRaGZ]

Well, now it's obvious why you are backing this preposterous idea of tournament play.

You don't really think we're that shallow...do you?

I think we've gone out of our way to show how much we want this community to succeed. We're not promoting Heavy Brawl so our mains gets better. We're promoting Heavy Brawl so the community can prosper.

Right. Not because of all the fully-explored, well explained reasons I listed in my big long previous posts. I'm just a selfish bigot.

And Dragz is lying. He actually mains luigi too.

In fact, this whole "heavy brawl" thing... it's all just a conspiracy to get luigi to top tier.

They're on to us!

Call me mint jelly 'cause I'm on the lam! *runs into a Model-T and drives off with banjo chase music*

 

[Papapaint]

You don't really think we're that shallow...do you?

I think we've gone out of our way to show how much we want this community to succeed. We're not promoting Heavy Brawl so our mains gets better. We're promoting Heavy Brawl so the community can prosper.



They're on to us!

Call me mint jelly 'cause I'm on the lam! *runs into a Model-T and drives off with banjo chase music*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spz8_rpE0e0

^Dragz.

EDIT:

Also, I think it's time for me to break this out. I created this in Scar's thread as a good copy-paste response for when people simply don't read the thread and try to jump into the discussion:

Congratulations! Your post has been dealt with previously, and is therefore adding nothing to the discussion! Please refer to the important links in the first post, and also read the first ten or so pages to find clear, well-defined responses to your post. Thanks for trying, and please post again once you've caught up with the rest of us.

Love,
The people who want Brawl to succeed in a competitive environment because we love the game!

 

[DRaGZ]

I apologize for missing your point.

This is where strategy plays it's part- the better player will know that playing defensively is statistically better, but he'll also know how to fight such strategies and adapt. I agree that this is probably a large fault in Brawl, however I have yet to find camping a true problem. You are balancing offense/defense by imbalancing speed/power and arial/ground respectively- either way someone loses out.

I'm going to take your point one piece at a time:

Power isn't increased in any way (I'm assuming you're talking about actual strength and knockback values). Strong knockback is simply more effective as a KO move because people drop more quickly, i.e. everyone drops more quickly.

Everyone receives a speed buff because everyone can us the SHFF. Autocancelling still exists. It's not just speedy characters that have become faster, everyone has become faster. If anything, the slower characters needed the speed boost more than the speedy characters, much like how l-cancelling helped out slow characters more than fast characters.

Aerial approaches have been buffed for everyone. This is something you can test for yourself.

Ground approaches have also been buffed for everyone, primarily because you can actually follow up strong ground hits with other moves.

Specifically, what we are imbalancing is what characters can and cannot do, i.e. character match-ups, and I propose that these issues are:

1. Not as important as balancing gameplay.
2. Not as severe as everyone is claiming. The only severe nerf anyone received was Sonic (I truly feel bad for Sonic, but my friend still owns with him whenever Sonic's above ground). Everyone else can still recover to a relatively comfortable degreee. People have complained that recovering has been nerfed, and yes, in general it has. But recovery was already extremely easy in regular Brawl, Heavy Brawl merely makes it more difficult. As I said before, everyone can still recover and relatively easily. This makes the edgegame far more important, which is one of the things that makes Smash games unique.

EDIT: almightypancake, DUDE, someone stole that idea from you and already did it in this thread!
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4234985&postcount=311
LouisLeGros is a PLAGIARIST.

Also, Benny Hill fell of a frickin' cliff and survived! Benny Hill is a beast.

 

[Pyr0]

They're on to us!

Call me mint jelly 'cause I'm on the lam! *runs into a Model-T and drives off with banjo chase music*

hahaha, I think its a little late for everyone, perhaps it should be wise to resume the discussion later.

I would like to (again) congratulate most of the posts done in this discussion today; They showcased how smart the smash community can be.

 

[LouisLeGros]

EDIT: almightypancake, DUDE, someone stole that idea from you and already did it in this thread!
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4234985&postcount=311
LouisLeGros is a PLAGIARIST.

I take my glove off and slap you with it!

for all we know you could have made that post to make it look like I was plagiarizing.

 

[Papapaint]

I take my glove off and slap you with it!

for all we know you could have made that post to make it look like I was plagiarizing.

I WAS JUST ABOUT TO POST THAT.

You'll be receiving a summons from my lawyers very soon...

 

[Corigames]

Look, just because people disagree with you doesn't mean ****. It's a dissenting opinion. Deal with it. I don't want a twent bulletin post explaining why it is better when I've already said that I don't like it. I've played with it, it solves NOTHING. People camp. People will always camp. People will spam, people always spam. Changing the weight system won't change that. And on top of that, it does support your main and, what appears to be, your top supporter's main. Kinda shaky when you put it in perspective.

 

[Papapaint]

Look, just because people disagree with you doesn't mean ****. It's a dissenting opinion. Deal with it. I don't want a twent bulletin post explaining why it is better when I've already said that I don't like it. I've played with it, it solves NOTHING. People camp. People will always camp. People will spam, people always spam. Changing the weight system won't change that. And on top of that, it does support your main and, what appears to be, your top supporter's main. Kinda shaky when you put it in perspective.

The conspiracy theory gets another twist...

Will Coreygames unravel the mystery of competitive Brawl? Will he figure out that faster approaches and chainable combos allow aggressive players to punish defensive players fairly once again? Or will he simply keep trying to attack the evil Dragz-Pancake corporation with absolutely no evidence?

Tune in to next week's "Coreygames Fails at Reading" to find out!

 

[Papapaint]

Also, I'm starting to find that people truly are convinced that you can only camp when you're reaaaaallly far away from someone. You can camp right the **** up close.

 

[LouisLeGros]

The conspiracy theory gets another twist...

Will Coreygames unravel the mystery of competitive Brawl? Will he figure out that faster approaches and chainable combos allow aggressive players to punish defensive players fairly once again? Or will he simply keep trying to attack the evil Dragz-Pancake corporation with absolutely no evidence?

Tune in to next week's "Coreygames Fails at Reading" to find out!

oh goody I can't wait *eats pop corn*

 

[DRaGZ]

Lol...Dragz-Pancake. That's like something IHOP would make.

But to give a serious response, coreygames, you're right. People will still camp and spam. But you can actually punish them for doing that in Heavy Brawl.

We're not trying to get rid of camping, just downgrade its importance. In Heavy Brawl, camping is no longer the dominant strategy, it's simply another strategy.

 

[Corigames]

Lol...Dragz-Pancake. That's like something IHOP would make.

But to give a serious response, coreygames, you're right. People will still camp and spam. But you can actually punish them for doing that in Heavy Brawl.

That's the thing. YOU CAN PUNISH THEM IN NORMAL BRAWL TOO! I'm evidentially playing a different game if we are getting completely different vibes from the exact some thing. Sorry.

 

[DRaGZ]

coreygames: Not really you can't. Punishment in regular Brawl is one or two hits. Punishment in Heavy Brawl is 4-5 hits.

The weak punishment in regular Brawl encourages campers to keep doing what they're doing because the risk-reward-punishment balance is in their favor. The stronger punishment in Heavy Brawl discourages continued camping because the risk-reward-punishment balance is actually balanced between the offense and the defense, i.e. it's worth it to try to approach a camper and attack him because the reward for pulling it off is worth the risk of taking damage and failing.

 

[IcedShadow]

My last giant wall of text went fairly unnoticed, which is fine considering it said so little for being so long. I'm just gonna assume that it was a fairly common knowledge post and we all realize exactly what the inherent implications and repercussions are for standardizing a nonintuitive mode for tournament play. And on top of that, I'm going to assume that proponents of Heavy Brawl believe that the positives will be able to overcome the aforementioned negatives.

On to things that have actual substance, such as the merits of Heavy Brawl.

Let me quickly reclarify my positions: I really do not know what I think of Heavy Brawl, but I will admit that I had an immediately negative reaction when I first read about the idea. I do not claim to have done exhaustive testing in Heavy Brawl, nor do I claim to be a "pro" in Brawl by any means. I have logged significant hours playing Brawl and played Heavy Brawl long enough to get the feel for it (so no, you won't hear me talk about how Jigglypuff's recovery got "trashed" in Heavy Brawl or any other such nonsense).

If the point of changing tournament play to Heavy Brawl instead of regular Brawl is to alleviate problems which impede on competitive play, namely camping, then Heavy Brawl must balance out the benefits of an offensive and defensive playstyle.

Is this true?
(Here I'm going to play a semi-devil's advocate. Since I do not have a stance one way or another, this is really just stuff I'm skeptical of that I want to be clarified)

I still see a defensive playstyle being massively beneficial and giving many advantages over an attacker. Somehow we've related being able to fall faster to eliminating the risk from the approacher. With the still reduced hitstun, nearly nonexistant shield stun, equal landing lag times and generally small pushback when hit in a shield, the defensive player still has many, many options. Essentially, their role is the exact same. The attacker doesn't realistically have any more options, they can just execute a few of those options more quickly (namely, short hopped aerials). However, if they get powershielded (which is no harder to do, the aerial itself does not come out any faster) or if they miss (because the landing lag is the same [or worse] as before) the defender can get a hit in. So how exactly has the risk been taken out of (or lessened) approaching as compared to standard brawl? The floatiness affects the learning curve of the defender, but doesn't appear to me to affect the top echelon of play.

Some may argue that it's not the risk which has been diminished, but the reward which has been augmented. This is true; with a more combo-friendly physics system in which once the attacker lands one hit, they may hope to rack up more damage, there is a greater reward to getting a hit in. However, this is a double-edged sword. If the defensive player gets a hit in, they too will be able to capitalize on the altered physics and land an equally detrimental string of hits. In fact, because as a defensive player you have more options of punishment (grab, jab, and many other attacks while the offensive player is suffering from lag on their attacks while you have almost none from shielding) than an offensive player (let's face it, even in melee there were only so many good moves to approach with. I hear D3's nair provides a good approach in Heavy Brawl, but that does not also mean its his most combo-centric aerial) they will be able to choose their best option to combo out of. Thus, they have more options to maximize their hits.

In practice, I'm not sure how this all holds up. I do not have enough hours of "competitive" or even pseudo-competitive play in Heavy Brawl to be a pro and be perfect at the playstyle. I could easily see it possible for an AT in Heavy Brawl to show up which makes it the best, most fun, engaging, skill-based, and deep game that has ever existed. I could also see super broken tactics for two characters emerging because the game engine was not catered towards Heavy Brawl and thus, there was not the same exhaustive testing and more flaws seeped through.

At this point, I do not think it's really possible to be sure that we're going to be able to overcome the inherent systematic problems that switching something like this would cause.

 

[Corigames]

coreygames: Not really you can't. Punishment in regular Brawl is one or two hits. Punishment in Heavy Brawl is 4-5 hits.

The weak punishment in regular Brawl encourages campers to keep doing what they're doing because the risk-reward-punishment balance is in their favor. The stronger punishment in Heavy Brawl discourages continued camping because the risk-reward-punishment balance is actually balanced between the offense and the defense, i.e. it's worth it to try to approach a camper and attack him because the reward for pulling it off is worth the risk of taking damage and failing.

That's simply not true. Because, if you remember, it's heavy Brawl. So those 4-5 hits just equates back to 2-3. That already is no big difference. Then on top of that, if you stick to strategy. If my camping/spamming strategy is working, then I'm going to do it. In a heavy Brawl, how is that going to change?

Plus, even in normal play, there is little hitstun on attacks in Brawl. The second you get hit, you can hit the other person. Note, this only works at lower percents, because, otherwise, you would be knocked too far away. With heavy Brawl, you can do this longer. Characters can chain grab longer, hold people against walls longer, and have a harder time DIing away from things. The game just becomes and exchange of punches until people are over 200%, then it just becomes normal Brawl again.

So why would we make the game that's already pretty long with 3 stocks go even longer? And for what? So that we have a 2-3 minute buffer on each stock before it becomes possible to kill? I just don't get where you guys are coming from.

 

[DRaGZ]

My last giant wall of text went fairly unnoticed, which is fine considering it said so little for being so long. I'm just gonna assume that it was a fairly common knowledge post and we all realize exactly what the inherent implications and repercussions are for standardizing a nonintuitive mode for tournament play. And on top of that, I'm going to assume that proponents of Heavy Brawl believe that the positives will be able to overcome the aforementioned negatives.

On to things that have actual substance, such as the merits of Heavy Brawl.

Let me quickly reclarify my positions: I really do not know what I think of Heavy Brawl, but I will admit that I had an immediately negative reaction when I first read about the idea. I do not claim to have done exhaustive testing in Heavy Brawl, nor do I claim to be a "pro" in Brawl by any means. I have logged significant hours playing Brawl and played Heavy Brawl long enough to get the feel for it (so no, you won't hear me talk about how Jigglypuff's recovery got "trashed" in Heavy Brawl or any other such nonsense).

If the point of changing tournament play to Heavy Brawl instead of regular Brawl is to alleviate problems which impede on competitive play, namely camping, then Heavy Brawl must balance out the benefits of an offensive and defensive playstyle.

Is this true?
(Here I'm going to play a semi-devil's advocate. Since I do not have a stance one way or another, this is really just stuff I'm skeptical of that I want to be clarified)

I still see a defensive playstyle being massively beneficial and giving many advantages over an attacker. Somehow we've related being able to fall faster to eliminating the risk from the approacher. With the still reduced hitstun, nearly nonexistant shield stun, equal landing lag times and generally small pushback when hit in a shield, the defensive player still has many, many options. Essentially, their role is the exact same. The attacker doesn't realistically have any more options, they can just execute a few of those options more quickly (namely, short hopped aerials). However, if they get powershielded (which is no harder to do, the aerial itself does not come out any faster) or if they miss (because the landing lag is the same [or worse] as before) the defender can get a hit in. So how exactly has the risk been taken out of (or lessened) approaching as compared to standard brawl? The floatiness affects the learning curve of the defender, but doesn't appear to me to affect the top echelon of play.

Some may argue that it's not the risk which has been diminished, but the reward which has been augmented. This is true; with a more combo-friendly physics system in which once the attacker lands one hit, they may hope to rack up more damage, there is a greater reward to getting a hit in. However, this is a double-edged sword. If the defensive player gets a hit in, they too will be able to capitalize on the altered physics and land an equally detrimental string of hits. In fact, because as a defensive player you have more options of punishment (grab, jab, and many other attacks while the offensive player is suffering from lag on their attacks while you have almost none from shielding) than an offensive player (let's face it, even in melee there were only so many good moves to approach with. I hear D3's nair provides a good approach in Heavy Brawl, but that does not also mean its his most combo-centric aerial) they will be able to choose their best option to combo out of. Thus, they have more options to maximize their hits.

In practice, I'm not sure how this all holds up. I do not have enough hours of "competitive" or even pseudo-competitive play in Heavy Brawl to be a pro and be perfect at the playstyle. I could easily see it possible for an AT in Heavy Brawl to show up which makes it the best, most fun, engaging, skill-based, and deep game that has ever existed. I could also see super broken tactics for two characters emerging because the game engine was not catered towards Heavy Brawl and thus, there was not the same exhaustive testing and more flaws seeped through.

At this point, I do not think it's really possible to be sure that we're going to be able to overcome the inherent systematic problems that switching something like this would cause.

This is probably the best post to argue against Heavy Brawl I have seen so far.

The point you bring up about the increase in reward rather than the decrease in risk is something I was pondering as well. But I did some analysis on this a while ago while I was comparing Fast Brawl to Heavy Brawl, I guess I should put them up here now:

In Heavy Brawl, options do not change. Everything that was available in regular Brawl is still available in Heavy Brawl. Thus, the defender still has his myriad of options and the attacker is still limited. This is a given and you've highlighted that in your post. Also, keep in mind that I am still talking about approach.

However, in Heavy Brawl, the primary difference is that, for approach, SHFFing is now much quicker. Not just SHFFing, but also RARing, juking out the opponent by shorthopping and airdodging to land behind the opponent, etc. Obviously, ground approaches have not changed, but aerials approach options have been upgraded. Note, we are not gaining any options, rather the aerial approach options we have are now better.

Defensive options in Heavy Brawl, on the other hand, fundamentally do not change. Playing very campy consists of basically sitting in one position and waiting for the opponent to approach, i.e. there are no real aerials options to perform from here if you're not approaching unless you are projectile spamming. Basically, defensive options are not augmented in any way; they stay the same.

Thus, overall approaching options are buffed and defensive options remain the same. One could argue airdodging is affected, but airdodging has to be timed much more accurately than before because you fall faster, thus it's more difficult to perform for both offensive options and defensive options.

Okay, so from this point it's clear that approaching is now easier. That's a good thing. It discourages camping.

Now for the punishment game. A proper approach should result in a hit which, with the added gravity in Heavy Brawl, will result in the opponent being comboed with a few hits. However, if the defender manages to powershield or side-step carefully, the position could either be neutral or in the defender's favor depending on the landing lag. For instance, if I am Wolf and I RARed a defender who sidestepped or powershielded properly, my b-air is fast enough to land without much lag and thus result in a neutral position; both the approacher and the defender both have an equal opportunity to start an attack and possibly a combo, thus here the more skilled player will win. However, if the attack was timed improperly and wasn't auto-cancelled, such as a poorly timed f-air by Ganondorf, the opponent can capitalize and take advantage of the situation. This is how it should be: the defender is rewarded with a possible chance to retaliate due to defending properly, the approacher is rewarded if he attacks properly, and the approacher puts himself back in a neutral position if his attack failed but managed to pull it off without suffering lag. The latter supports learning better approaches, which adds more depth to learning approaching options for each character.

The wrench in the gears, so to speak, in this match-up is shieldgrabbing, which is really powerful in this game. Specifically, even with a regular shield, if the attacking opponent lands in front of the opponent, it can very easily be grabbed right out of the shield. Not all characters can easily do this, but a lot of characters can. I think this can be remedied in two ways:

1. Roll immediately upon landing with a failed approach with auto-cancelled or low landing lag, either towards the opponent or away. I find that rolling towards the opponent puts me in a superior position because I am right behind the opponent facing him. This doesn't always work though, which is good because it would make approaching nearly unstoppable.

2. Do the shorthop airdodge juke instead. This is probably the safest way to approach, but it has the least potential reward because, from that position, it's difficult to set up a combo.

In either case, both the approacher and the defender has options, mostly balanced options. I concede that the defender is still in a slightly better position, but it's far better than in regular Brawl where any sort of short-hopped approach was too slow and predictable enough to be countered.

 

[DRaGZ]

That's simply not true. Because, if you remember, it's heavy Brawl. So those 4-5 hits just equates back to 2-3. That already is no big difference. Then on top of that, if you stick to strategy. If my camping/spamming strategy is working, then I'm going to do it. In a heavy Brawl, how is that going to change?

Plus, even in normal play, there is little hitstun on attacks in Brawl. The second you get hit, you can hit the other person. Note, this only works at lower percents, because, otherwise, you would be knocked too far away. With heavy Brawl, you can do this longer. Characters can chain grab longer, hold people against walls longer, and have a harder time DIing away from things. The game just becomes and exchange of punches until people are over 200%, then it just becomes normal Brawl again.

So why would we make the game that's already pretty long with 3 stocks go even longer? And for what? So that we have a 2-3 minute buffer on each stock before it becomes possible to kill? I just don't get where you guys are coming from.

What? None of what you are saying makes any sense.

"It's heavy Brawl, so those 4-5 hits just equate back to 2-3". That's not true at all. Heavy Brawl isn't damage modifying, it's making characters drop faster so they're closer to the floor. Thus, 30% damage in Heavy Brawl is still 30%, unlike in 0.5 damage mode where 30% only equates to 15%. People actually tend to die faster in Heavy Brawl because comboing is actually very effective and recoveries are gimpable, thus I've actually been playing with 4 stocks instead of three.

Horizontal DI does not change in Heavy Brawl at all, and vertical DI is only affected as much as jumps are. If you're stuck against a wall due to a headbutty Pikachu or Angel Ring-happy Pit, you can still DI towards your opponent and then DI away. It still works, I've tried it myself.

After the initial two hours of trying out Heavy Brawl, I have seen no one reach 200% unless we were messing around. Seriously. You seem to think that's it's actually harder to get full knockback KOs now...it's actually now much easier.

Short version: Heavy Brawl matches are actually faster, not slower, and this is because Heavy Brawl's effects does not equate to damage ratio 0.5 effects. Try it for yourself.

EDIT: I'm done for today. I'll respond to new posts tomorrow.

 

[bobwaffles]

This is heavy...

GREAT SCOTT!

 

[Corigames]

If you're stuck against a wall due to a headbutty Pikachu or Angel Ring-happy Pit, you can still DI towards your opponent and then DI away. It still works, I've tried it myself..

I'll just assume the rest of what you said is right, I KNOW this is wrong. The only time people were able to get out of pit's >b in my experience is going AWAY from him or UP and out of the attack. When against the wall, there is only one option. In a heavy Brawl, this would make it harder to get out.

 

[jwj442]

No, DIing towards your opponent and then DIing away works fine in normal Brawl. I haven't tried it in heavy brawl yet though.

Your objections don't make much sense. Based on my limited experience, people die FASTER in heavy Brawl, not slower. And I don't see how you can say Pit's recovery is anywhere near bad either.

 

[Yoshistar64]

Hey, add this video (not mine) to the original post. It was really fun to watch, and demonstrates High Gravity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd-dJj0IM_4

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Does heavy brawl kill Ike's recovery?

 

[Rodriguezjr]

Does heavy brawl kill Ike's recovery?

He seems to be normal to me. The only thing is that he drops faster. I got a couple of recorded videos of heavy brawl I could probably show them later once I record them into my computer.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

Could you? I dont thnk Id see the difference fighting computers

 

[Aqueus]

Camping isn't projectile spamming. This post isn't an argument, it's a failure to read other posts.

Hmm, maybe it's not an argument, it's a statement: You have a problem I've never encountered. Not at the two (sad, I know) tournaments I've gone to, nor at work during the many games I've played.

I originally came into this thread checking out Heavy Brawl. I looked into it, it's not all peaches and cream. It doesn't solve anything. I've seen the videos, combos are just as unwieldy, maybe you'll get an extra swing in before they slip away, but it's the same game. Heavy Brawl just seems to nerf some characters while providing very few with combo potential.

While I'm at it...

Hey, add this video (not mine) to the original post. It was really fun to watch, and demonstrates High Gravity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd-dJj0IM_4

It's videos like this that show me how little combo potential is affected by High Gravity, maybe Olimar is a poor choice to show the effects, but I see the exact same Brawl gameplay, except at certain points in the video, where he would normally fly too far away, he's just barely close enough to get in one more attack.

This is exactly what I've been saying the entire time. Heavy Brawl isn't actually making comboing any easier, maybe for a select few, but for the majority of characters nothing is changed for the better; several things get nerfed.

Yay, recoveries can be gimped now. There was only one attempt at that in the entire video. And it failed.

Yay, combos are present like they were in melee. No, they weren't. Pay attention, the approach happened, an attack happened, both players recoiled, and started again. Just like it happens in Standard Brawl, except this time you have the perceived benefit that everyone hits the ground faster.

Also, I'm certain that we need a video of a campy player attempting to camp in Heavy Brawl, otherwise these combo videos are moot. If you can't solve camping, you have no reason to continue this farce.

I think I'll continue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iomUOudEybs&feature=related

Featured in the first post, if this were given in training mode, you'd see that the combo meter might read three after the match was over, maybe four, tops. The ground fighting looked faster, but that's because they were playing the second fastest character in the game. The combo potential may be there, but I don't see it. Moves still knock a fairly long distance away, now with the added benefit (read: disliked change) of falling faster for no real effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8OCFl6EILs

The second video on the front page shows a bit more combo potential, I didn't have as much interest in this one so I didn't look to see how many consecutive hits were available. I did like the Raptor Punch->Knee combo, it was nice, it was lonely, though as there were still no serious combos. Lastly, the computer is a horrible opponent to test Heavy Brawl out. The DK could have made it back to the stage on that Raptor->Knee combo if he'd DI'd.

 

[PityLord]

Might as well again add my 2 cents here.

Since there are manny doubts about heavy Brawl there should be hosted a tourney featuring original moda and heavy mode both. Those would be ofc 2 seperate tourneys. After few of those I think its best for the comunity decide actually which one should be tourney standard.

As for me when I start a tourney in my homecountry (hopefully), I will experiment much with all the available settings including heavy brawl ofc. As of now Gimpy's or M2K's opinion on this would help some people with the insight of this .

 

[Aqueus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO8Nc17ZIyk

I submit that there is just as much combo potential and recovery gimping in this video as in Heavy Brawl, except that the characters retain all of their normal properties. No non-standard play necessary.

Credit goes to Galeon for having such wicked skills.

 

[Superstar]

Not watching vids, on Wii.

Comboing is not more in heavy Brawl than in Melee, its just more than in regular.

I did some more testing. For Fox camping was improved in heavy due to regaining SHL. Not gamebreaking an still approachable, but meh. Dash Attack -> utilt I believe is still escable. In regular Brawl Fox can combo with Drill->Almost any move, but in Heavy he can extend it, with 2 utilts and a usmash after drill. In order to still combo you need to drill the SECOND you leave the ground, while in normal you do it at the height of your jump. Also, <3 shine spike.

My brother feels Jiggs is buffed in Heavy, he says she flows better [not much help].

Also, looking at my brother's style, he camps a lot, in order to get a 0-100% inescable due to degeneration chaingrab on Fox. Never noticed it as camping.

 

[jwj442]

I gotta say, although Sonic's vertical recovery is garbage now, triple upair juggling (jump, upair, double jump, upair, spring, upair) is fun with heavy. You can't chase people towards the top and KO them anymore, but that opportunity seldom presented itself anyway. You can do this a lot more easily.