Heavy Brawl as the competitive standard? EDIT: Could a pro post his/her opinion?

[HyperTheHedgehog]

I'm starting to come around to the idea, the combos I've seen aren't ******** like they were in Melee, but if you're only looking to buff combos by a bit, it looks like you'll be able to do so in Heavy Brawl.!

Assuming that by "******** combos" you mean really good and not really bad:


Since when did Melee has ******** combos? I think you are thinking of 64 >_>

 

[Papapaint]

But the recoveries man! The recoveries!

I'm going to be perfectly honest here.

Heavy Brawl may well lead to some characters being unusable. This would be a tragedy, and i mean that sincerely. But if it balances out gameplay... it may be worth the cost. I'd rather try to find ATs to make a few select characters usable than try to find ATs to make the whole game more balanced.

 

[Yoshistar64]

We will have bad recoveries and good recoveries, and that's just the way it is. It's been that way even in regular Brawl and in Melee, and nothing is going to change it.

And if recoveries are really THAT big of an issue, then can't we just increase the stock amount?

 

[Aqueus]

I'm going to be perfectly honest here.

Heavy Brawl may well lead to some characters being unusable. This would be a tragedy, and i mean that sincerely. But if it balances out gameplay... it may be worth the cost. I'd rather try to find ATs to make a few select characters usable than try to find ATs to make the whole game more balanced.

I guess this is where we part ways. I don't like the idea of Heavy Brawl, for reasons I've already stated, but I think I can live with it (I've always hated DDD and Sonic was fanservice, anyways. Honestly, his entrance in SSE was BS. >.>), I've stated before I want Brawl to become a competitive game with a good community, whatever forwards that is fine by me.

I have some misgivings, but I'll see how this pans out.

As Culex once said:

Perhaps in another time, another game, we may have been mortal
enemies...
Let us part as comrades in arms.

 

[Papapaint]

I guess this is where we part ways. I don't like the idea of Heavy Brawl, for reasons I've already stated, but I think I can live with it (I've always hated DDD and Sonic was fanservice, anyways. Honestly, his entrance in SSE was BS. >.>), I've stated before I want Brawl to become a competitive game with a good community, whatever forwards that is fine by me.

I have some misgivings, but I'll see how this pans out.

As Culex once said:

Cheers man. Stick around, you do raise good points, and we need that in this discussion.

 

[Toadster5]

The only recovery that gets hit really hard is Sonic's from what I've seen, and he sucks anyways.

 

[Ferith]

This argument just doesn't fly.

"Changing it" would be plugging in AR and adjusting hitstun or some other mod. We're using an in-game option. It's turning off items. It's turning off stages.

Faster characters will always have an advantage. They always have. And believe me, the gap between usable and unusable characters (due to speed) is much, much smaller in heavy brawl than it was in melee.

That came off to me as-

"Fast characters already have the advantage- making it EVEN BIGGER isn't bad as a result! And since Melee is our standard (in which only 4 characters were truly usable) it'll TOTALY WORK"

=/

If there's already a gap, do NOT MAKE IT BIGGER. You do NOT make some characters unusable to make others "balanced" in offense/defense. Instead, you find strategies to get past the defensive one. That's more than half the battle. It seems to me like this entire idea is simply bypassing the entire mindgaming tactic which is essential to anyone hoping to succeed in any other fighting game (I dare you to play SFA3 or MVC 2 with your current mindset. It's so imbalancedly balanced you'll laugh yourself to death) or even Melee for that matter. You're changing gravity to promote some balances but in doing so you take away others and ruin characters (while buffing others).

Thus I don't believe this can or ever will become the tournament standard. I have nothing else to say on the matter at this point, I've said just about everything I need to. If you still want to discuss it with me, send a PM, but I'm done.

 

[Rodriguezjr]

Could you? I dont thnk Id see the difference fighting computers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgfW_-w9GcM (Ike)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfejR61ulIU (Another Ike)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb6oxOLmNBo (Ganondorf)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9LgtlrsTjc (Link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzaT9V3OKB0 (R.O.B.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o3SqCoKcpY (Sonic)

Some of these videos maybe still processing since I uploaded it a while ago. But, just trying to help out here. Here are some more differences of some of the character's falling. Yes, me against CPUs.

 

[M.K]

That came off to me as-

"Fast characters already have the advantage- making it EVEN BIGGER isn't bad as a result! And since Melee is our standard (in which only 4 characters were truly usable) it'll TOTALY WORK"

=/

If there's already a gap, do NOT MAKE IT BIGGER. You do NOT make some characters unusable to make others "balanced" in offense/defense. Instead, you find strategies to get past the defensive one. That's more than half the battle. It seems to me like this entire idea is simply bypassing the entire mindgaming tactic which is essential to anyone hoping to succeed in any other fighting game (I dare you to play SFA3 or MVC 2 with your current mindset. It's so imbalancedly balanced you'll laugh yourself to death) or even Melee for that matter. You're changing gravity to promote some balances but in doing so you take away others and ruin characters (while buffing others).

Thus I don't believe this can or ever will become the tournament standard. I have nothing else to say on the matter at this point, I've said just about everything I need to. If you still want to discuss it with me, send a PM, but I'm done.

Completely agreed, why not just scrap everything and play Marth vs. Marth for 10 years! In 2010, we'll all be like "Sonic who?? FOX FTW"

 

[fkacyan]

Look, guys, we get it already. You miss Melee.

Nobody is forcing you to play Brawl. Just go back and play Melee again.

 

[Papapaint]

Completely agreed, why not just scrap everything and play Marth vs. Marth for 10 years! In 2010, we'll all be like "Sonic who?? FOX FTW"

Actually, this lessens the gap between fast characters and slow characters. Most of the fast characters right now have a much higher chance of being able to string SOMETHING together--even if it is tech chasing--in standard brawl. In heavy brawl, the slow characters are able to chase much easier because--you got it--people don't go as far as fast.

 

[Aerozeke]

Look, guys, we get it already. You miss Melee.

Nobody is forcing you to play Brawl. Just go back and play Melee again.

haha, oh you

What does this have to do with Melee? Our goal here is to improve the competitive aspect of Brawl, not make a Melee 2.0. Simple as that.

If we didn't like Brawl, then we wouldn't be trying to expand its competitive scene.

 

[GPLegend777]

Here's an idea, lets just let brawl play out. That is the one reason,I think that melee was such a success. people weren't saying, if it was going to be competitive as the other game, or trying to make it competitive. They acted as if it was a totally different gaming experience. Just play the game. If you dont like it,it's as simple as this go play a differen't game!

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

haha, oh you

What does this have to do with Melee? Our goal here is to improve the competitive aspect of Brawl, not make a Melee 2.0. Simple as that.

If we didn't like Brawl, then we wouldn't be trying to expand its competitive scene.

Well, you obviously don't like its physics.

 

[Dabble]

haha, oh you

What does this have to do with Melee? Our goal here is to improve the competitive aspect of Brawl, not make a Melee 2.0. Simple as that.

If we didn't like Brawl, then we wouldn't be trying to expand its competitive scene.

Even though you are using a Melee mindset in crafting the competitive scene for Brawl.

Cause you know, this is what you are basing everything from.

 

[Papapaint]

Well, you obviously don't like its physics.

And we don't like its items, and we don't like some of the stages.

How many of the people slamming us in this thread actually go to tournaments? I don't mean little **** tournaments with you and your friends, or the guys on your dorm, I mean real smashboards tournaments?

If you have something productive to actually add, based on experience, then by all means, please contribute. But if you're just a casual player who feels as though your experiences with your friends are solid enough to determine the competitive scene for the entire country, get real.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Even though you are using a Melee mindset in crafting the competitive scene for Brawl.

Cause you know, this is what you are basing everything from.

Cause, y'know, Melee's a good template to BASE it off of.

As it stands, Brawl isn't exactly competitive grade material; an invite to Evo does not a competitive game make. I'm not going to even bother rehashing what has been said by Mr. Pancake (<3 your posts) and several others (such as Black Panther who, despite having a strong opposition to the game as a whole, has also brought up some good points from the opposite end of the spectrum). It's all there; all you need to do is click on the "first" icon and read the first page of the thread.

Hopefully, we can work some of the kinks out for Heavy Brawl and make it a viable option. I was playing for a couple of hours the other day and found it REALLY hard to get in to. Then again, I was using Ganondorf and was pissy because I couldn't drop off the ledge of FD, u-air, and then hit the platform again without having to use my Up B. I did use my Metaknight (my main) and came away with good feelings, though.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Aerozeke]

Even though you are using a Melee mindset in crafting the competitive scene for Brawl.

Cause you know, this is what you are basing everything from.

There is no "Melee mindset" involved. Fact is, the competitive aspect of Brawl is flawed. Camping is overpowered, and there are more options and benefits for defense as opposed to offense. That's why we're exploring the alternative, such as Heavy Brawl, which fixes these problems. This has nothing to do with a Melee 2.0.

And there's nothing wrong with Brawl's physics. It's a great game--a worthy sequel in just about every way to Melee. I love the new roster, I love the stages... basically, I love the game, period. But I, along with many others, also want to enjoy it competitively. So what's wrong with wanting to play the game a slightly different way? That's why they included the option for customizable gravity and matches, as well as stuff like the item switch.

Remember, there's no "right" or "wrong" to play the game.

 

[Dabble]

Cause, y'know, Melee's a good template to BASE it off of.

As it stands, Brawl isn't exactly competitive grade material; an invite to Evo does not a competitive game make. I'm not going to even bother rehashing what has been said by Mr. Pancake (<3 your posts) and several others (such as Black Panther who, despite having a strong opposition to the game as a whole, has also brought up some good points from the opposite end of the spectrum). It's all there; all you need to do is click on the "first" icon and read the first page of the thread.

Hopefully, we can work some of the kinks out for Heavy Brawl and make it a viable option. I was playing for a couple of hours the other day and found it REALLY hard to get in to. Then again, I was using Ganondorf and was pissy because I couldn't drop off the ledge of FD, u-air, and then hit the platform again without having to use my Up B. I did use my Metaknight (my main) and came away with good feelings, though.

Smooth Criminal

Seems to me you are a little trigger happy mate, for I did not diss melee whatsoever in that post.

I was making a response to that other guy who was basically saying this has nothing to do with melee, when in reality, it has EVERYTHING to do with melee seeing as how we are using knowledge from THAT to better THIS.

It is not a bad template to use at all, nor did I say it was.

Aerozeke: Did I SAY you were trying to make it a melee 2.0? Did I SAY there is a right and wrong way to play the game? Did I SAY people didn't like it?

No. I am saying that all your knowledge and whatnot concerning Brawl is coming from Melee knowledge, which is a GOOD thing.

Quit trying to twist it around like my meaning was negative when it was not. Don't be foolish in saying that you are not thinking like a Melee pro to make this game competitive. That is utter bullcrap.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

^ @Dabble: Then I need to learn to read. Lol.

However, nowhere in my post was I too harsh. Syntax is a bit tough to determine through the internet. Flying off the hinge would've been me going ape**** and posting "Fail" pics.

It's all good.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Dabble]

Yea, no need to worry about it smooth. I hold no grudges.

 

[GPLegend777]

And we don't like its items, and we don't like some of the stages.

How many of the people slamming us in this thread actually go to tournaments? I don't mean little **** tournaments with you and your friends, or the guys on your dorm, I mean real smashboards tournaments?

If you have something productive to actually add, based on experience, then by all means, please contribute. But if you're just a casual player who feels as though your experiences with your friends are solid enough to determine the competitive scene for the entire country, get real.

You're basing your oppinions of the competitive play that melee had. If you have gone to tournaments for other games and not just smash bros, you would know what competitive play really looks like. Which most of the people in this thread haven't.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

And we don't like its items, and we don't like some of the stages.

How many of the people slamming us in this thread actually go to tournaments? I don't mean little **** tournaments with you and your friends, or the guys on your dorm, I mean real smashboards tournaments?

If you have something productive to actually add, based on experience, then by all means, please contribute. But if you're just a casual player who feels as though your experiences with your friends are solid enough to determine the competitive scene for the entire country, get real.

You mean Brawl tourneys or Melee? 'Cause I went to a bunch of tourneys here in Florida as had as pretty good Pikachu, IMO, at least when I wasn't killing myself.

And really, you are fooling yourself if you think that turning off items is on the same level as changing the gravity.

 

[Aerozeke]

Aerozeke: Did I SAY you were trying to make it a melee 2.0? Did I SAY there is a right and wrong way to play the game? Did I SAY people didn't like it?

No. I am saying that all your knowledge and whatnot concerning Brawl is coming from Melee knowledge, which is a GOOD thing.

Quit trying to twist it around like my meaning was negative when it was not. Don't be foolish in saying that you are not thinking like a Melee pro to make this game competitive. That is utter bullcrap.

I see what you mean now. I went overboard, my apologies. You're right of course, we are basing this on our knowledge of the Melee metagame.

 

[Dabble]

I see what you mean now. I went overboard, my apologies. You're right of course, we are basing this on our knowledge of the Melee metagame.

It is fine. With all the tension around this place it is to be expected.

As I told Smooth, I hold no grudges; don't worry about it.

 

[Papapaint]

You're basing your oppinions of the competitive play that melee had. If you have gone to tournaments for other games and not just smash bros, you would know what competitive play really looks like. Which most of the people in this thread haven't.

That's true. And I don't see why not. It's not wanting melee 2.0, it's wanting smash.

This whole debate has just become excessive. It is only through practice that any arguments will actually sway.

I plan to hold the first Heavy Brawl tournament. It'll be here in SE VA, and hopefully I can shoot for a late April date.

EDIT: And don't pull the "real competitive play" card on me, you self-centered ****. I was playing competitive counterstrike before melee even came out.

 

[Aerozeke]

You're basing your oppinions of the competitive play that melee had. If you have gone to tournaments for other games and not just smash bros, you would know what competitive play really looks like. Which most of the people in this thread haven't.

You must be joking. We're talking about competitive play in Smash Bros. It has nothing to do with competitive play in other games.

You mean Brawl tourneys or Melee? 'Cause I went to a bunch of tourneys here in Florida as had as pretty good Pikachu, IMO, at least when I wasn't killing myself.

And really, you are fooling yourself if you think that turning off items is on the same level as changing the gravity.

I don't see a problem with it, really. If it works for competitive play, then why not? As I said before, there's no right or wrong way to play the game. They gave us those options for a reason, see.

 

[Dabble]

Arguments will never sway on the internet. You should know better than to think that considering the environment we are in pancake.

 

[fkacyan]

That's true. And I don't see why not. It's not wanting melee 2.0, it's wanting smash.

Except that the first game was more like Brawl than like Melee, which means the Melee is the black sheep in this argument. Thus, yes, you want Melee 2.0.

My issue with turning the gravity up is that it changes the entire metagame, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but heck, I'd rather play this one when I pop in Brawl, and the other one when I pop in Melee.

By the way, I see the assumption popping up that people who like Brawl were bad at / didn't play Melee. Unless you have something to back that up, people really need to stop perpetuating that.

you would know what competitive play really looks like. Which most of the people in this thread haven't.

Ever play Guilty Gear or Street Fighter competitively?

Counterstrike?

Halo?(Lol)

If not, please stop spouting that crap.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

You must be joking. We're talking about competitive play in Smash Bros. It has nothing to do with competitive play in other games.



I don't see a problem with it, really. If it works for competitive play, then why not? As I said before, there's no right or wrong way to play the game. They gave us those options for a reason, see.

I didn't say that it was wrong, its just that its not the same as turning off items.

 

[DRaGZ]

I'm only going to post these responses and edit the main post for today. I'm a bit busy...

Might as well again add my 2 cents here.

Since there are manny doubts about heavy Brawl there should be hosted a tourney featuring original moda and heavy mode both. Those would be ofc 2 seperate tourneys. After few of those I think its best for the comunity decide actually which one should be tourney standard.

As for me when I start a tourney in my homecountry (hopefully), I will experiment much with all the available settings including heavy brawl ofc. As of now Gimpy's or M2K's opinion on this would help some people with the insight of this .

This is what I want to happen.

Ideally, everyone will register in both tournaments. Then we'll see how the gameplay differences play out in both tournaments. I predict that the semifinals to finals of regular Brawl will be filled with highly effective defensive play while Heavy Brawl will have varied styles in the finals.

Not watching vids, on Wii.

Comboing is not more in heavy Brawl than in Melee, its just more than in regular.

I did some more testing. For Fox camping was improved in heavy due to regaining SHL. Not gamebreaking an still approachable, but meh. Dash Attack -> utilt I believe is still escable. In regular Brawl Fox can combo with Drill->Almost any move, but in Heavy he can extend it, with 2 utilts and a usmash after drill. In order to still combo you need to drill the SECOND you leave the ground, while in normal you do it at the height of your jump. Also, <3 shine spike.

My brother feels Jiggs is buffed in Heavy, he says she flows better [not much help].

Also, looking at my brother's style, he camps a lot, in order to get a 0-100% inescable due to degeneration chaingrab on Fox. Never noticed it as camping.

Why was it improved due to SHL? (not trying to be condescending, I'd just like an answer why). Fox's campiness in regular Brawl solely consisted of him drawing him opponent by pissing them off with his laser and then responding to an approach. This hasn't really changed in particular in Heavy Brawl, so what gives?

Also, yes, we're not looking for Melee-style combos. We're looking for a bit more combo potential than is available in regular Brawl. Right on.

Holy ****e, that first video is what I'm talking about! Check out 0:55, Bowser dodges while off the ledge and is already off-screen before his dodge animation is finished.

This gimps the aerial fighting game that Brawl appears to be.

Also, can we PLEASE get some real fighting going on in these matches?

I liked the opening of the second video, dthrow->dair->deflector, nice. See that? Three hits, that's not a MEGA-EXTREME combo... I really liked the combo, showed ingenuity.

That's what I'm getting at, though. I think you guys are fooling yourself. Approach in Heavy Brawl is just as difficult as in Standard Brawl, it's the Follow-up that has changed. You have a shorter distance to travel to get back to your opponent: you offer them less breathing room.

Jesus christ I wish you people had started with that idea in mind, instead of this approach crap. Approaches are the same, and offer no sincere penalty, unless your character has a gimped approach to begin with. I can almost get behind this idea now, the idea of less breathing room is nice, but it hearkens back to Melee in a way that is not competitive, it's defaming. If you want the follow-up like I think you do, then you really are just trying to make Melee 2.0. Sure you liked the game, but Brawl has a different skillset required. If it weren't for the crappier recoveries and silly botches that end in a stock lost I'd be able to agree with Heavy Brawl. See my Bowser example above for exclamation and venom; similarly, you died because your multiple jumps failed to get you level with the stage, you went ^B and died under the stage, I think this is telling.

Well...the actual options for approach have not specifically changed. But they've become faster, which makes them far more effective. That, along with the ability to punish with extended combos, is what makes defensive camping not as attractive as in regular Brawl.

Also, your gripes is with gimped recoveries. Yes, we know. Recoveries are gimped. But everyone's recoveries are gimped. And Bowser shouldn't be airdodging as he falls off the stage anyway.

The way I see it is: Although this is a nice way to level the playin field, if we have to alter the game settings like goin into a special brawl to make this game more competitive then I don't think it's worth it. Not all games were meant to be played competitively and Sakurai including the fact that all of his Smash games weren't designed that way, but with SSB(Although not huge) and Melee we found things out negating what he said but with Brawl we're talkin about goin into Heavy mode everytime we start the game up to make it a competitive game I think that's lame. If this turns out the be the best option though more power to you =) but I'm just gonna stick with Melee. And if you Brawl nubs attempt to flame me for a post that had no derogatory remarks in it then prepared to feel the force. I made a harmless post so the response should be that way.

What's wrong with choosing a different mode to be more competitive? almightypancake has already laid out a better response than I have on this one.

What about an empty SH? It sounds like you're using anecdotal evidence here. Sure you've had a bad time with it, try approaching with an empty SH, then grab, he spot-dodges? SH into a NAir, or DAir, you've already closed the gap, approaching the same way every time, or with one of your 'good moves' is of course going to be obvious, this was true in Melee, too.

The important thing that made this almost a non-factor in Melee was what? That's right Wavedashing, or more to the point: spacing. If you were afraid that you'd misstepped, misjudged, or otherwise made the wrong move, you could at least dash back and retaliate if something went awry from there, there is no such option in Brawl, so you have to vary your approach, every tried to SH at the same spot and instead of performing a Standard Attack do a >B? Vary your spacing so you go far enough that you can't be punished or just on the other side of him.

Honestly, I've not seen any good matches of Heavy Brawl with a human vs. a human, but from those that have computers in them I can clearly see that nothing worthwhile has changed. Approach is the same, again, it's the follow-up that's different.

I don't know what else to say, there must be something that you're seeing that I'm not.

I think the only way to sway you is to show videos of human vs. humans. I unfortunately do not have the means to do this right now. Does anyone else?

Perhaps they had the worst vesatility in their ^B, but Mario's Cape is nothing to cry about, nor was Falco's Falco Phantasm. They both gave each character good recovery potential, nothing like, say Zelda's, or Samus', but Samus wasn't deemed top of Top Tier because she could recover from virtually any point off the stage.

Yes, the recoveries are really off-the-wall when you look at them through the lens of Melee, Pit can come back from magnifying glass status to the middle of some stages, but if you tap him while his wings are glowing blue it's a long way down. Snake can vertically cover more distance faster than most characters can cross Final Destination, but zap his... uhm... propeller-thing and down he goes. Each of the characters have outlandish recoveries, but several of them that seem ridiculously overpowered have a glaringly obvious Achilles heel.

Switching gears here, but I think the only thing that's going to make this seem like an even remotely logical debate is for one of the pro-Heavy Brawlers to get a camper and show me how his style play is hampered by Heavy Brawl, because I just don't see it. I may be biased, but I can only see the cons.

Combo potential does not rise on the whole. If it does rise, it's not significant, and it's certainly not for every character.

Recoveries become gimped, the notable ones: DDD, and Sonic, though everyone suffers about 1/4 of their height diminishing. (Excepting a few characters, like Jigglypuff, who, for some reason remains largely unchanged.) Characters like Pit, and Kirby with multiple jumps suffer from what I like to call "DDDism", DDD in Standard Brawl barely moves vertically when he performs his jumps, nearly every character who has multiple jumps begins to act like DDD in Heavy Brawl.

Pit can get knocked away into the magnifying glass on Final Destination, float underneath the stage, and recover by grabbing the ledge on the other side (although he doesn't even need to grab the ledge to recover). In Heavy Brawl, he can no longer do this, but he can still make it back from any kind of magnifying glass distance. Sure, he can't recover like a god anymore, but he's still extremely good at recovering.

Like I said a few times, DeDeDe's recovery is still pretty good, still better than Marth's.

Also, those characters have multiple jumps to begin with. I've already explained that Pit still has godly recovery. Kirby can still float up rather high. Sure, I can see their problems, but I don't see any major issues.

And keep in mind, everyone has jumping issues, not just multi-jumpers.

Completely agreed, why not just scrap everything and play Marth vs. Marth for 10 years! In 2010, we'll all be like "Sonic who?? FOX FTW"

You don't seem to understand...

Everyone receives recovery nerfs. Everyone receives offensive buffs. There are already major character balance gaps in Brawl, percentage-wise more than in Melee. Heavy Brawl makes some of these lower-tier characters much much more usable (this wasn't an intended effect we were looking for, it's just what's happening). For instance, Yoshi, considered by a lot of these boards to be low-tier, is now extremely powerful in Heavy Brawl because he has a lot of strong approach options and extreme combo potential.

Even though you are using a Melee mindset in crafting the competitive scene for Brawl.

Cause you know, this is what you are basing everything from.

Here's an idea, lets just let brawl play out. That is the one reason,I think that melee was such a success. people weren't saying, if it was going to be competitive as the other game, or trying to make it competitive. They acted as if it was a totally different gaming experience. Just play the game. If you dont like it,it's as simple as this go play a differen't game!

Smooth Criminal already did a much better job than me:

Cause, y'know, Melee's a good template to BASE it off of.

As it stands, Brawl isn't exactly competitive grade material; an invite to Evo does not a competitive game make. I'm not going to even bother rehashing what has been said by Mr. Pancake (<3 your posts) and several others (such as Black Panther who, despite having a strong opposition to the game as a whole, has also brought up some good points from the opposite end of the spectrum). It's all there; all you need to do is click on the "first" icon and read the first page of the thread.

Hopefully, we can work some of the kinks out for Heavy Brawl and make it a viable option. I was playing for a couple of hours the other day and found it REALLY hard to get in to. Then again, I was using Ganondorf and was pissy because I couldn't drop off the ledge of FD, u-air, and then hit the platform again without having to use my Up B. I did use my Metaknight (my main) and came away with good feelings, though.

Smooth Criminal

Seems to me you are a little trigger happy mate, for I did not diss melee whatsoever in that post.

I was making a response to that other guy who was basically saying this has nothing to do with melee, when in reality, it has EVERYTHING to do with melee seeing as how we are using knowledge from THAT to better THIS.

It is not a bad template to use at all, nor did I say it was.

Aerozeke: Did I SAY you were trying to make it a melee 2.0? Did I SAY there is a right and wrong way to play the game? Did I SAY people didn't like it?

No. I am saying that all your knowledge and whatnot concerning Brawl is coming from Melee knowledge, which is a GOOD thing.

Quit trying to twist it around like my meaning was negative when it was not. Don't be foolish in saying that you are not thinking like a Melee pro to make this game competitive. That is utter bullcrap.

Well, to be honest, I'm not basing this stuff on what I know of Melee. I truthfully don't know a lot about Melee, just enough to get consistently dead middle in Melee tournaments.

If I did, I would be comparing approaches to wavedashing SHFFLs, but I'm not. I'm basing this solely on things I could/couldn't do in regular Brawl and things I could/couldn't do in Heavy Brawl. That's it.

It's everyone else who keeps accusing us of brining Melee into the picture. Where did I mention melee in this entire thread except to dispute that I wasn't talking about Melee?

 

[DRaGZ]

That's true. And I don't see why not. It's not wanting melee 2.0, it's wanting smash.

This whole debate has just become excessive. It is only through practice that any arguments will actually sway.

I plan to hold the first Heavy Brawl tournament. It'll be here in SE VA, and hopefully I can shoot for a late April date.

EDIT: And don't pull the "real competitive play" card on me, you self-centered ****. I was playing competitive counterstrike before melee even came out.

Awesoooooome. Could you post vids on it too? I'm here in San Diego, so I can't really come due to school...but I give my best wishes and regards on a successful tourny.

 

[Dabble]

@DraGZ:Subconciously, you are playing out the motions in Brawl like you would in Melee. You may not be directly making the reference, but you are without realizing that you truly are.

Why are you making the assumption that is something to be ashamed of?

 

[fkacyan]

It's everyone else who keeps accusing us of brining Melee into the picture. Where did I mention melee in this entire thread except to dispute that I wasn't talking about Melee?

The only combo-based Smash game (Granted there are only three) is melee, and trying to make it more combo based is thus making it like gravity.

Also, the friend who told me about this thread said, and I quote: "They're discussing making high gravity standard for tourneys now! Now I can finally fastfall like in Melee!"

While this is isn't a bad thing, there are a lot of people who don't want the game to become Melee 2.0.

 

[DRaGZ]

Except that the first game was more like Brawl than like Melee, which means the Melee is the black sheep in this argument. Thus, yes, you want Melee 2.0.

My issue with turning the gravity up is that it changes the entire metagame, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but heck, I'd rather play this one when I pop in Brawl, and the other one when I pop in Melee.

By the way, I see the assumption popping up that people who like Brawl were bad at / didn't play Melee. Unless you have something to back that up, people really need to stop perpetuating that.



Ever play Guilty Gear or Street Fighter competitively?

Counterstrike?

Halo?(Lol)

If not, please stop spouting that crap.

Here is a list of games I have played competitively:

Starsiege.
SF2 Turbo. (I really suck at it now though)
Tribes.
Tribes II.
Counterstrike.
Team Fortress.
Yu-Gi-Oh! (yes yes...hahahaha, kiddy game)
Starcraft (until I realized I just wasn't good enough)
Melee (somewhat, I started in college and simply didn't have enough time)

By competitively, I mean I have attended at least four tournaments, and for most of these I was heavily entrenched in the competitive communities. I used to have a CS screw until I got bored of shooters in general. I was one of the highest ranked players on Starsiege (my Olympian with smokin' rails was scary), and I was good enough in Yu-Gi-Oh! to be offered a cushy writing job at Pojo's.

Just sayin'. I don't even think this is even relevant to why we're discussing Heavy Brawl, but you wanted it so you got it.

 

[Aerozeke]

I didn't say that it was wrong, its just that its not the same as turning off items.

Oops.

Sorry... I did it again. I can't read today, apparently.

Anyway, we can agree on one thing: when we look at how much controversy the simple act of switching off items has sparked, it's obvious that there's going to be a lot more of that "YOU'RE NOT PLAYING THE GAME THE WAY IT'S INTENDED" crap coming our way.

 

[DRaGZ]

@DraGZ:Subconciously, you are playing out the motions in Brawl like you would in Melee. You may not be directly making the reference, but you are without realizing that you truly are.

Why are you making the assumption that is something to be ashamed of?

I'm not. Melee is an awesome game. I am, however, saying that I am not consciously thinking about Melee when I am making my arguments.

Hell, you're probably right. I'm probably subconsciously thinking about Melee.

 

[HyperTheHedgehog]

The only combo-based Smash game (Granted there are only three) is melee, and trying to make it more combo based is thus making it like gravity.

Also, the friend who told me about this thread said, and I quote: "They're discussing making high gravity standard for tourneys now! Now I can finally fastfall like in Melee!"

While this is isn't a bad thing, there are a lot of people who don't want the game to become Melee 2.0.

Combos in 64 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Combos in melee

 

[fkacyan]

Just sayin'. I don't even think this is even relevant to why we're discussing Heavy Brawl, but you wanted it so you got it.

I wasn't targeting that at you, Dragz. It was at the guy who was comparing different games competitively.

 

[Papapaint]

Man... after this, and seeing smashboards in general...

I've just lost my desire. I think I'm actually going to throw in the flag here, and call it quits on competitive smash for a while. Maybe I'll check back in a couple months and see how things are progressing.

Good luck to everyone, on all sides.