Hate on Falco? WHO CARES

[JKJ]

I've been hearing about a growing hate towards Falco in the community. I'm not one who gives a rat's *** what people think about how I play or what I do to win, but I generally try to go legit and combo. But I'm not afraid to laser spam if I'm playing a campy Marth, or Sheik, or really any campy player at all. Lasering is good to interrupt aggro players too.

All my smash friends talk about how "gay" he is and how cheap his fsmash and lasers are, and I have read that this is a growing feeling among newer players. I'm always like "LOL MY FSMASH IS ONLY GOOD IF YOU'RE MAD PREDICTABLE"

Where did this hate come from? I mean, obviously, if a strategy is working, it's "gay" in this community, and PP/Mango have been tearing **** up, but I always thought that Fox and Falco were the two pillars of "ungay" melee playing. Just my two cents; I really couldn't care less if a player calls me "gay". If you can play better, WIN THEN.

I'm interested to hear the Falco community's thoughts. Is he "gay"? Do you care? Why has this arisen recently? And do you think the day is coming when all melee characters in the C tier and above are deemed "gay"?

 

[Beat!]

This is not going to end well.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

people are just tired of getting 0WN3D by a popular character

 

[Deleted member]

falco has some pretty loath-able character traits if you play a non fox/falco character. it's probably not a good reason to scrub out, but i can still understand where they're coming from.

 

[LLDL]

If they main Marth/Sheik/Peach, then they have to right to talk.

 

[RFrizzle]

I think most people are just tired of how popular he has grown. BH2 was like 50 percent falco lol. But even though I hate fighting falco as Falcon, it's a fun mountain to climb.

 

[Van.]

I think we can all agree that on the off chance he is broken, its not because of his fsmash

 

[Twinkles]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4TLiiY5VCE

 

[Purpletuce]

People hate on Falco because most of the time in mid-level to low-level play (lower state ranked-people familiar with advanced play) Falco will win a match against players better than him. The problem isn't that he has an aspect that is better than most characters, it is that almost every aspect of him is better than most characters. If you don't understand this, you shouldn't consider yourself a Falco main. Ex: Falco vs. my main(Yoshi, I know he is a bad character, but that is my choice to bear ) Falco is faster, harder to kill of the top, harder to gimp, easier to control, more priority, more KB, fast startup times, better shield, longer hitbox times, easier to read with because you can usually cover most options, easier to get first hit with and has a better grab. Yoshi is better in that he is harder to kill off the sides. It is really easy for a Falco to be bad and keep up with players that are better than him.

Situation: your approach vs. my response to it (my approach is irrelevant because it doesn't happen in this MU unless you started playing yesterday). When you approach you have to be able to hit Y->B->down. The only trick is that you need to short hop, which is easy for Falco. To neutralize that response, I need to parry it, where a read when you're going to laser, crouch if it is high, stand if it is low, then shield-> jump in less than 1/10 a second, and in the window I create is when your laser must move from outside of my shield range to inside of it, so I can parry it. Obviously for the approach game to be neutral (regarding only your lasers) I need to use a much harder tech than you do. I have to be better than you(at the point). When you're edgeguarding, you can just throw out random B-air and D-airs like a scrub, and have a decent chance at a kill, where as Yoshi must be very precise. Your B-air and D-air can always go through my recovery. I have a few moves that can go through your recovery, which are smashes, the low,back part of my N-air, B-air(not useful to edgeguard) and grab(very hard to time-worst grab in the game). Your moves will stay out over 4 times longer, and startup more than twice as quickly(excluding my N-air), meaning it is functionally 8x easier for you to go through my recovery, than for me to go through yours. (my N-air would require me to know exactly where you're going, and hit you with the starting hitbox, after I turn around and make you run into it with my read, ex: jump to you to feint, DJC to turn around then N-air in about a 2 frame window. If I mess up you can autocancel your up-B and I will be up in the air without a DJ, and I am almost certainly dead.)

Since my main is so bad, this is an extreme case, but hopefully you can understand how players tend to think that Falco is 'gay'. Until players get their technical abilities down to the point that how much easier it is for you to edgeguard becomes irrelevant, then you will have a significant advantage over them because your character. At high levels of play, this matters less, such as is is much easier for Falco to land D-air than Pika to land U-air gimps, but since Axe has such high proficiency, his Pika vs. Flaco MU is much more winnable for him.

This turned out to be a huge wall of poorly formatted text. . . but in summary, Falco is considered gay because he can be used by players to beat players better than themselves.

 

[Juushichi]

Being better starts at the character select screen.

Love,
Melee

(PS: Falco is still mad gay)

 

[EthereaL]

This turned out to be a huge wall of poorly formatted text. . . but in summary, Falco is considered gay because he can be used by players to beat players better than themselves.

I main Pichu, God damn Yoshi is so gay.

Falco has easily-abused characteristics that are hard to overcome until both players can consistently match one another at a high level of play.

 

[Purpletuce]

Being better starts at the character select screen? I saw Armada play YL, so Armada must be bad. Good point there. Also, aside from the Pichu comment, yes, that it what I said.

 

[Twinkles]

It is a good point, Armada has a counterpick that's been working for the last, what, 3 nationals he's played HBox?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco wins the macro game vs most characters so you're gonna be focusing on minute interactions to beat him for the most part, which is a bit harder to learn. There isn't as much of a cohesive, 'base' gameplan against him (dd camp, laser camp, etc) because his neutral game shuts down so much.

This isn't really a problem in the long run but it's unquestionably annoying the first few times you encounter it.

 

[Purpletuce]

TBH my point is false, as Armada's skill at the character select screen could be argued that it was correct because of the specific MU, not a general idea to pick YL. I just couldn't resist such a simple, direct counterpoint to the (equally foolish) claim that player skill starts at character select, implying all low tier players are bad.

In my experience there definitely are some forms of macrostrategy that work on Falco (making it easier, not winning), but I would believe I would need to start winning on the micro level.

 

[Vixen]

Falco is ghey because eyeshadow.

/thread.

 

[Max?]

All I'm saying was, I called out fake and annoying Falco was years before it was popular.

/hipster

 

[Veetaak]

Falco is gay but has sex with women

 

[Naughty Pixel]

Falco wins the macro game vs most characters so you're gonna be focusing on minute interactions to beat him for the most part, which is a bit harder to learn. There isn't as much of a cohesive, 'base' gameplan against him (dd camp, laser camp, etc) because his neutral game shuts down so much.

This isn't really a problem in the long run but it's unquestionably annoying the first few times you encounter it.

Is there a thread/post somewhere that explains micro and macro game? I would really like to get an understanding for these terms .

On Topic: up until about a week ago I was determined to drop the bird just because the last tournament i went to my winners and losers bracket games were falco dittos, there were so many falco mains it was scary. I just find it boring when theres so little character diversity >.<
(Edit: I've realised that its dumb to drop almost 3 years of work just because falco is too mainstream)

 

[Purpletuce]

It is also dumb to invest 3 years into such a mainstream character

 

[Warhawk]

(Edit: I've realised that its dumb to drop almost 3 years of work just because falco is too mainstream)

Not if you don't have fun with him anymore because of the lack of character diversity or because that makes it feel like he's not your character anymore.

 

[Naughty Pixel]

It is also dumb to invest 3 years into such a mainstream character

Well there's a reason (alot actually) why he sees such heavy representation everywhere you go. =P

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

just **** all the falco mains in your area until they change characters

or **** them so often that you get bored and learn to do it with secondaries haha

 

[Beat!]

It is also dumb to invest 3 years into such a mainstream character

I hope that was a joke.

 

[Purpletuce]

It was a little. I just wanted the part of the hipster.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Is there a thread/post somewhere that explains micro and macro game? I would really like to get an understanding for these terms .

On Topic: up until about a week ago I was determined to drop the bird just because the last tournament i went to my winners and losers bracket games were falco dittos, there were so many falco mains it was scary. I just find it boring when theres so little character diversity >.<
(Edit: I've realised that its dumb to drop almost 3 years of work just because falco is too mainstream)

No there isn't, to my knowledge.

And that sounds silly. Play who you want.

 

[TheLake]

lol falco most over rated character

he hits your shield

then he dies

you do anything defensive

and he dies

hes off the stage

you laugh hard enough at how small his

recovery is

and he will die

i promise <3

 

[JKJ]

...almost every aspect of him is better than most characters. If you don't understand this, you shouldn't consider yourself a Falco main. Ex: Falco vs. my main(Yoshi, I know he is a bad character, but that is my choice to bear ) Falco is faster, harder to kill of the top, harder to gimp, easier to control, more priority, more KB, fast startup times, better shield, longer hitbox times, easier to read with because you can usually cover most options, easier to get first hit with and has a better grab. Yoshi is better in that he is harder to kill off the sides. It is really easy for a Falco to be bad and keep up with players that are better than him.

Let me begin by saying that I have UBER experience in this matchup, one of my closest friends is a Yoshi main.
Falco is, obviously, a great character. His lasers are a great way to control the neutral game, and his moves hit hard, but he is certainly not better than other characters in every way. Two important ways that Falco falls short of the mark are in recovery and combo-ability. His recovery is AWFUL, just awful. There's no getting around that fact. And he falls so fast that he can be caught in ridiculous combos by many other characters. Those are his major flaws.

Harder to gimp? Seriously? He is the most gimp-able character in the game.

And better shield? Sure, you can't jump out of your shield, but your shield lasts very long and can't be shield stabbed.

Situation: your approach vs. my response to it (my approach is irrelevant because it doesn't happen in this MU unless you started playing yesterday).

Yoshi's shield is incredible, even though it limits his OoS options, one of the best things you can do it crouch, shield roll, crouch, repeat, to get closer. Doesn't always work, but it's certainly not nothing. Also, light shield=SLIIIIIDDDDEEEE. Any difficulty in neutral game can be solved through unpredictability, i.e. jumping, throwing eggs, etc.

Obviously for the approach game to be neutral (regarding only your lasers) I need to use a much harder tech than you do. I have to be better than you(at the point).

This only happens in this MU, as it is one of Yoshi's worst in the game. And like I said before, Powershielding is NOT the only option.

When you're edgeguarding, you can just throw out random B-air and D-airs like a scrub, and have a decent chance at a kill, where as Yoshi must be very precise. Your B-air and D-air can always go through my recovery. I have a few moves that can go through your recovery, which are smashes, the low,back part of my N-air, B-air(not useful to edgeguard) and grab(very hard to time-worst grab in the game).

Throwing out Bairs and Dairs is not scrublike, misplacing/mistiming them can lead to a failed edgeguard or death. Edgeguarding is one of Falco's strongsuits, though.
My Bair and Dair do NOT always go through your recovery. You have armor on your second jump, and if you time it right, only a shine and other attacks at REALLY HIGH %'s will go through.
You are also forgetting your Dtilt as an edgeguard. Well timed Dtilts go through my recovery ALWAYS. the timing is no harder than it is for me to time my edgeguards. I guess you just learned something new :D

. . . but in summary, Falco is considered gay because he can be used by players to beat players better than themselves.

I wholly disagree. You are defining "better" as a player who is using a worse character, or trying to do harder things to win. If you are not beating Falco mains, it is because you are not better than them. The character you pick factors directly in to how good you are. If you lose to a player, He/She played better than you.

Falco wins the macro game vs most characters so you're gonna be focusing on minute interactions to beat him for the most part, which is a bit harder to learn. There isn't as much of a cohesive, 'base' gameplan against him (dd camp, laser camp, etc) because his neutral game shuts down so much.

This isn't really a problem in the long run but it's unquestionably annoying the first few times you encounter it.

It's like learning any other hard MU. The puff/shiek/marth MU for Falco is hard to learn and adapt to. Gimps suck :/

Falco is ghey because eyeshadow.

/thread.

LOL

All I'm saying was, I called out fake and annoying Falco was years before it was popular.

/hipster

^^^
This

Falco is gay but has sex with women

:D

lol falco most over rated character

he hits your shield

then he dies

you do anything defensive

and he dies

hes off the stage

you laugh hard enough at how small his

recovery is

and he will die

i promise <3

Thank you! He is the most easily gimped character in the game, I'm glad somebody who isn't a Falco main thinks so. PS TheLake I love watching your Zelda

 

[Kimimaru]

Purpletuce, I was about to give my thoughts on what you said about the Yoshi-Falco MU but JKJ summed them up perfectly (thanks!).

Players, especially beginners, will always dislike tactics and characters that they cannot beat; it's natural. There are lots of things I don't like about Melee and other games, but I just live with them because they're not going to change and hating on them doesn't help in the slightest.

 

[Shadow Huan]

falco's entire recovery isn't easy to gimp, his upB is. he has better recovery mixups than most characters do

my biggest gripes about falco are his weaksauce easy spike and the lazors

teh lazors are amazing stage control, but there are ways around them, they're not unstoppable

but a 30 frame move that spikes the ENTIRE duration and has no sourspot? bull**** on a stick, EVERYONE else in the game who has a "true" spike has to time/space it. falco has to space it to a degree, but there's no timing involved besides "throw it out near a recovering opponent" lol...

one of the few nerfs in PAL that i agree with.

yes i'm aware you can tech it when you're recovering, but that doesn't change the fact that the move is dumb lol

besides that, falco's a glass cannon, once you learn the MU and focus you can beat him so long as there isn't a huge skill difference

EDIT: also, falco dittoes are fun, so much going on lol

 

[Jim Morrison]

Every character from a player that beats you is "gay"

Any Falco who I can beat isn't "gay".

 

[Dark Hart]

Deeeeer

He has a deeeeeer

 

[Strong Badam]

Being easily gimped isn't an actual weakness. Welcome to Super Smash Bros. Melee, everyone gets edgeguarded really hard except like Puff and Peach. You also have to HIT SOMEONE to edgeguard them, which is extremely difficult when he has a stunning laser that he can stop you from doing your stuff over twice per second.

 

[JKJ]

Purpletuce, I was about to give my thoughts on what you said about the Yoshi-Falco MU but JKJ summed them up perfectly (thanks!).

I'm glad someone agrees; I like to think I know the matchup really well. That Dtilt on the ledge is like a foolproof kill.

falco's entire recovery isn't easy to gimp, his upB is. he has better recovery mixups than most characters do

His recovery mixups don't really matter. Plan for a Side-B, and swing with appropriate timing. If falco doesnt side-b, you have more than enough time to recover from any lag and hit him after his up-b. His up-b takes long to charge, has to be close to the stage while charging, and has no hitbox during charge-up.

lazors are amazing stage control, but there are ways around them, they're not unstoppable

Correct. The lasers are one of his most effective tools but they aren't game breaking.

but a 30 frame move that spikes the ENTIRE duration and has no sourspot? bull**** on a stick, EVERYONE else in the game who has a "true" spike has to time/space it. falco has to space it to a degree, but there's no timing involved besides "throw it out near a recovering opponent" lol...

I can't completely disagree, the dair is possibly the best move in the game. It's not nearly as easy as you say, but it is pretty awesome :D

yes i'm aware you can tech it when you're recovering, but that doesn't change the fact that the move is dumb lol

Agreed, but the move isn't overly game-breaking.

besides that, falco's a glass cannon, once you learn the MU and focus you can beat him so long as there isn't a huge skill difference

True that, sir.

EDIT: also, falco dittoes are fun, so much going on lol

YES

Being easily gimped isn't an actual weakness.

I completely disagree. Marth and sheik aren't easily gimped. ganondorf isn't easily gimped. Hard-to-gimp characters have a big advantage, as their survivability lets them live to high percents. one falco gets hit offstage above ~50%, he can be most likely killed with a simple ledgehog. That is a big disadvantage.

You also have to HIT SOMEONE to edgeguard them, which is extremely difficult when he has a stunning laser that he can stop you from doing your stuff over twice per second.

I can understand that a laser camping falco can be hell in some MU's, but it is never insurmountable. Falco's strength is the neutral game. It's like Ben Teezy said: "When Falco isn't getting hit, he has the advantage; when he IS getting hit, [the other character] has the advantage." granted the bracketed phrase was actually "Fox" when Ben Teezy said it, I think it applies to most if not all MU's. Once it leaves neutral game not in Falco's favor, he is combo-able to death.

 

[Strong Badam]

If you're edgeguarding Ganondorf well, he basically doesn't get back. It just takes tons of repetitions. Same w/ Sheik unless she's at 0. Regardless, if you're dying at 0 w/ Falco, you're getting severely outplayed. Falco's recovery requires a hard read to edgeguard unless you've hit him hard enough to where he's forced to use his Up-B.

 

[JKJ]

If you're edgeguarding Ganondorf well, he basically doesn't get back. It just takes tons of repetitions. Same w/ Sheik unless she's at 0. Regardless, if you're dying at 0 w/ Falco, you're getting severely outplayed. Falco's recovery requires a hard read to edgeguard unless you've hit him hard enough to where he's forced to use his Up-B.

I can agree to a certain extent, but continual repetitions of an edgeguard make a character hard to edgeguard, as it gives you more chances to mess up. I'm not talking about dying at zero, I'm talking about a fox bair near the end of the stage at ~40% leading into a death. That happens all the time. Using your up-b? DEAD. using your side-b? (which is often pretty obvious due to the nature of falcos not wanting to use their up b) you get hit. Then you have to use your up-b, and you are dead.

 

[RFrizzle]

Ganon is so ****ing easy to edgeguard wtf lol. make that fucboi use his jump and it's GG

 

[JKJ]

But his kick replenishes his jump. Unless you spike him or get him below stage, he takes FOREVER

 

[Shadow Huan]

so? just do what Little England did to Kage and spike him. lol

game 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=9o7C3Pq4NM4

EDIT: also what SB said about Falco's recovery is what i meant, i'm bad at putting thoughts in text lol -_-

 

[Jim Morrison]

so? just do what Little England did to Kage and spike him. lol

game 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=9o7C3Pq4NM4

I forgot how ****ing cool that set was.