Halo Game - Ovah

[Peach Monster]

@ Regal Cheese, you asked why I went ahead with a vote with a preface instead of waiting for an updated votecount.

I was pretty sure DH wasn't at L-1, and I felt my vote was overdue. I was confident enough that I wouldn't accidentally hammer that I dropped the vote, but I felt I should include that line just in case. I also felt it was better for town to have my vote placed on him, rather than be relied upon to hammer.

As stated prior, I have reviewed the posts that followed my suggested plan for toNight. I do not think it is inherently scummy to be in opposition to my plan. As I believe the plan is better for town, I do think scum is more likely to oppose it, but I can understand why a town player might disagree on policy. Similarly, I can see a scum player agreeing to blend in. WIFOM; but I feel scum are more likely to disagree.

However, I think avoiding taking a stance is a scumtell.

PM dats jus' too perfect for a scummmai roleblocker.

Gotenks is unlikely to be scum -ive explayned dis. The 6 noble team members r prolly in da game - usin' dis assumption none r safeclaims for scum 'n is the flava 'n logical place for da indies. Basically he's indie or town (o hai not scum) lyke we know 'n said yesterDay, so whai cop 'im? 'Course I'm not sayin' this flavaa analysis has ta be rite - but feels like ya totally ignored it. Is this mo' skimmin'? Not sure if I buy ur 'soz Regal I skimmed ur post and by default added support to the-man's push on u'

What stops Gotenks recruitin' sum1 else other than u if he's anti-town recruiter? He then dies, so do u - and the chump recruited gets 2 cruise along to LyLo. We'd only avoid dat if we had a tracker - n even then tracker wud need ta out demselves tah get da lynch.

Don't like ya wan bit 2bh.

Regal posts right away.

Regal seems to contradict himself later.

Why would anyone want the-man to get recruited?

Huh? Wat? Wot? r u dumb?

Modkill 'im. Recruit PM.

If the-town: modkill. Gotenks recruits PM. We c wat happens 2mo.

If the-scum: modkill. Lynch PM. We c if n e 1 admits 2 bein' recruited 2mo.

Imo.

The only thing that changed between these two posts is the possibility of a modkill on the_man. But...Cheese objected to the plan on grounds of a roleblocker. This hasn't changed. Why the flip?

Ok for some reason I can't log onto the hydra and I don't feel like figuring out why. Blue what did you do!

Gheb I'm quite suprised by your thoughts. I like though. Not that I agree.

Uh I say lynch PM and then Gotenks recruit the-man. If the-man is scum and Gotenks is recruiter then they both die and everybody wins :D

WHOS UP FOR IT?

CottonLicky gives a stance.

i really dont think we should lynch gotenks guys. i dont see how he is scummy. i know he was kinda inconsistent d1 but that could be cuz its hard to be consistent on a hydra. its not the scummy kind of inconsistent imo

pm why do yu think im a play all of a sudden. cuz some ppl agree + i want you dead?

the man can die
pm can die

chuckie, licky and xswords are off my radar and i need to look closer at them

cheese, fans and gotenks are all town and can live

Spag gets defensive of my mention of him, avoids addressing my plan, does not give a stance.


Chuckie initially agrees with CottonLicky but then decides he likes our plan.

I'm liking what I see.

Lynch PM.

Let Gotenks recruit tHe-Man.

Or, if anything, wait for tHe-Man to get modkilled, lynch PM, and rid the two obvscum?

Ehh, works out either way.

Smarboy gives a stance, handholding with CottonLicky again.

Also I agree that Gotenks shouldn't announce who he's going to recruit, don't want to paint a target.
actually I just read PM's post and just going ahead and targeting PM could be good. If this is what goes down, imaginary-doc should protect PM

Fans responds.

how long til 4pm? if the man is modkilled vig shoot pm if yur out there. gotenks is town and should recruit on his own dicretion

Spaghebti finally takes a stance, 60 posts later (post 720 vs post 660).



XSword never takes a stand in the pages I re-read.


So...XSword, no stance, Spag, very slow to give a stance and very brief when he does. And obviously, tHe-man never gave a stance, but he was inactive.

Also, an exchange I greatly dislike:

No, imaginary doc should protect either PM or Gotenks at doc's discretion, if we went that route. Public should not know which one.

Also I agree that Gotenks shouldn't announce who he's going to recruit, don't want to paint a target.
actually I just read PM's post and just going ahead and targeting PM could be good. If this is what goes down, imaginary-doc should protect PM

Okay.

Doc wouldn't be dumb enough to protect you PM. You're, like, obvscum. And if you're town, scum won't want to NK the top suspect alive. That's silly.

Doc, do you.

Imma be at a costume party tonight. G'night, b****es .

I really don't like Smarboy's statements here right after I said that the choice should be kept secret. If he believes the doc won't do that, then keep it to yourself.



Also, I made this statement, and never saw a response:

Fans for Sell, ok, you don't find tHe-man scummy. May I ask, who do you find scummy at this point? I'm more interested in knowing that than who you don't.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

@Dark Horse: Well you claimed Regal to be your 2nd scummiest person - I'm just a bit dubious about you then claiming to be completely against He-man's stances as he too pursued Regal

Yeah, "completely against" was a bit overkill. Some of his stuff I agree with, though most I don't.

As for regal, he's made some scummy remarks, such as:

U didn't ask "can u quote where the-man said he didn't wanna lynch u?"

But besides that, he hasn't been too scummy. On my list, but not very high

 

[Peach Monster]

@All: I don't think Gotenks should be an instant play toMorrow if he fails to recruit. If this is the case, D3 wii'd strongly look into Regal alongside Gotenks [and whoever survives out of Dark/Monster assuming they haven't been killed by our pretend vig or recruited.] I think we need to consider potential interceptive roles as well. Vanz seems to think there's something fishy with XSword so quite a lot of people need to be placed under scrutiny toMorrow IOO before we declare anyone the play.

I think he should.

We've given Gotenks a good option to confirm himself; recruit me. If scum kills me or Gotenks, that's different (and still not a bad scenario for us). Scum also has to worry about doc protection to do that since they don't know who's being protected.

If Gotenks chooses to ignore this plan, then Gotenks is choosing to not take a valid, town-proposed method of confirming himself. If, thus, his recruit fails and he fails to prove himself, IMO it is his falt. It's too dangerous to let him just sit there, especially when he's not giving stances or scumhunting.

If Gotenks recruits someone at his own whim to confirm himself, he needs to recognize that there's no room for johns this time. We hit a slippery slope of "how long do we let him live unconfirmed?" if we do it this way.

IMO our plan is still the best way to go though, and I would like to argue this case with Mentosman, if he'll just get on here and talk.

 

[Peach Monster]

*still pondering* I suppose you're right about the possibility of an intercepter/roleblocker type role. But if Mentos is shooting in the dark it becomes a lot harder to figure out what happened.

As I said:
IMO our plan is still the best way to go though, and I would like to argue this case with Mentosman, if he'll just get on here and talk.

 

[Swiss]

@ PM - fair but still fink it was a bad risk - no long term gain imo. fink ud have been happy 2 c a quicklynch.

@ Ur question - i said recruit u wen we were still hopin the-man wud get modkilled, but didnt explain dat proprly - fink its kinda clear ish if u c context b4. still fink dere r 2 many unknowns in da plan u sugested - not a fan of plannin everyfin way i advance, n dat was altered by da act i den realised we still got a lynch if theman flipped sucm on modkill. i admit dat assumin the-man-town den i put us bak in da plan i didnt like - dat was all workin on da assumption datwe cud fix da plan, as it were. iunno.


@ Chuckie -

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

He could've been silenced.

 

[vanderzant]

@PM: As good as the plan sounds in theory, the idea that Town are able to openly discuss and direct power roles with NO intererference from scum is laughable. As much as I hate it, Swiss was probably spot on the first time he said it.

At least if scum doesn't know who Gotenks is going to target, they can be unpredictable in that sense, and possibly waste a NKill potentially on you (trying to guess who he'd recruit).

But I dunno really.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

EBWOP:Ignore what I said about him being silenced. I realized he had posted today.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Doc, do you.

The phrase do you means do what you feel is right. Imma do me- Imma make a decision based on my discretion. You getz me?

 

[Peach Monster]

I don't intend to direct any unclaimed power roles. I only wish to direct the power role that has claimed to avoid pressure but cannot be confirmed. Following the results of the night action will give us a lot more information than if we don't know, especially on Gotenks (who scum already knows whether he is town or scum).

The worst part of it all is that of Gotenks chooses his own recruit target without breadcrumbing it, and dies because of the recruit attempt, then we gain nothing, scum gets two town kills, and we get *****. And if Gotenks breadcrumbs, then his target gets killed like N1 (or he might die).

Gotenks is put in a very bad position by having been forced to claim, because he cannot breadcrumb without scum following it (especially with his abysmal contributions so far, there has been no breadcrumbing yet). By controlling his night action, we know how to react if he dies as a result of his night action, and if something else happens it may confirm Gotenks as scum- or it might potentially teach us something about scum's capabilities (roleblocker?).

I feel it's the best option for town, and it's ONLY the best option in this exact situation. If he was any other PR, any other situation, I'd normally not be suggesting controlling the actions, but Gotenks needs to be confirmed, I need to be confirmed, and it's dangerous to let him just throw out random recruits because it potentially wastes the mason recruiter's ability to catch scum if he dies as a result without a breadcrumb trail.

 

[Peach Monster]

And as I said earlier, town should by no means try to control doctor's actions. Doc should pick his target at his own discrestion, with a recognition that either PM (myself) or Gotenks are most likely to die. Town should not make that decision and scum should be forced to worry.

 

[Swiss]

godammit i didnt hit post


@ Chuckie - u is askin y i voted my second top scum read not my top one. prolly cuz he got moar pressure dat way cuz spag just votes 'im? cant rememebr. not lyke i ignored gotenks - questioned him about his night actions 'n wat not.

2bh kat, even if da spag vote hadnt been dere encouragin me 2 put pressure on the-man, i dont c y me votin' my second scumspect ova my 1st scumspect dat early in da day can b used as an accusation against me. wat wud dis tell show btw? means im bussin the-man or buddyin gotenks amirite? Which izzit? fink i kno

'course i became disinterested in the-man. i knew he wasn't postin' in n e games (like i alredy said). knew he was inactive. fink most ppl became disinterested....y chase a guy who's not on da site? u alredy kno all dis.

 

[Swiss]

As much as I hate it, Swiss was probably spot on the first time he said it.

and dere was me jus' lookin' for a new sig.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Okay.

Remember when I said that Gotenks should recruit tHe-Man?

Yea. I take it back.

Although I wouldn't mind gayly holding hands with Licky skipping through the meadows (ya got me to say it. wanna kookee?), I realized that openly telling Gotenks what to do is stupid, and I'm glad mentos isn't telling us who he's recruiting.

Cuz in the end, we really DO wanna keep his recruit a secret, with subtle breadcrumbs, ofcourse.

And in the end, I'm wary of trusting anything from you, because youre just so scummy. I just can't find it in me to trust you right off the bat. I'd say that on the off chance of you actually flipping town, a possible plan can be followed. But at this point, I'm just iffy on PM in general. Sorry dude. It happens :/.

 

[Swiss]

@ DH cud u explain how dat was scummy? Ideally wivout interception from Chuckie. 5 ta 10 lines max plz. nice n concise.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

@ DH cud u explain how dat was scummy? Ideally wivout interception from Chuckie. 5 ta 10 lines max plz. nice n concise.

I consider bad arguing scummy. And that was a pretty bad way to argue about anything.

 

[Swiss]

den cud u explain how it was bad arguing?

Cud u explain y bad arguin' itself is scummy as opposed to jus' bein' poor arguin'?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

I have a feeling that town is going to be split between PM and DH -__-.

@FFS

You gotta choose dude. Where are you going- Dark Horse, or PEACH MONSTER?

Ya know, it's your choice.

 

[Peach Monster]

Okay.

Remember when I said that Gotenks should recruit tHe-Man?

Yea. I take it back.

Although I wouldn't mind gayly holding hands with Licky skipping through the meadows (ya got me to say it. wanna kookee?), I realized that openly telling Gotenks what to do is stupid, and I'm glad mentos isn't telling us who he's recruiting.

Why?
Explain why. I've explained why I feel the plan is a good idea.

Cuz in the end, we really DO wanna keep his recruit a secret, with subtle breadcrumbs, ofcourse.

Where are these breadcrumbs? How is he supposed to breadcrumb in a manner that town can find the next morning if he dies it but scum cannot find it during the night? Breadcrumbing only works because no one knows who the recruiter is or that there even is a recruiter. Everyone knows Mentos has to breadcrumb. Scum will see the same thing town sees. If we can figure out who he tried to recruit after the fact, so can scum.

And in the end, I'm wary of trusting anything from you, because youre just so scummy. I just can't find it in me to trust you right off the bat. I'd say that on the off chance of you actually flipping town, a possible plan can be followed. But at this point, I'm just iffy on PM in general. Sorry dude. It happens :/.

Can you actually tell me what is wrong with the plan?

Have any of you guys actually played with Edrees and I? I know that most of you outside of the Back Room haven't seen my scum play, but how about Edrees?

Do you guys really think that inactivity lines up with our traditional scum play? The case on us being scum is entirely based on the fact that we skimmed D1/early D2 and one of us went V/LA, the combination of which resulted in really shallow play for obvious reasons.

I'm sorry for the self-meta, but I realize you're playing on feeling. Look deeper at this.

 

[Swiss]

ffs guys. Gotenks wont crumb ANYTHING today that would be major anti town

IF someone is recruited by him tonight they will VERY SUBTLY crumb that they were recruited in or claim to clear one of them.

Problem with crumbs now is scum can crumb they got recruited and NK gotenks N3. Gotenks has ta play carefully imo.

 

[X1-12]

phone B8erez (batteries) runnin low but I don't like PM asking us to look deeper when deadline tomorrow

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

den cud u explain how it was bad arguing?

Because I could rephrase the question and you'd be left argument-less.

Cud u explain y bad arguin' itself is scummy as opposed to jus' bein' poor arguin'?

Maybe not all bad arguing, just arguments such as yours, as you were avoiding a question.

Avoiding questions are scummy because the person who's avoiding it probably wants to avoid it because it would scum-breadcumb them.

 

[Praxis]

That's what I've been saying.

So...if Gotenks is town, and Gotenks recruits and hits scum and dies, with no breadcrumbs, then what happens?
Scum gets their kill, Gotenks dies, double townie kill including a power role, I get mislynched on the next turn, get ***** town?

I'd much rather see scum kill me to frame Gotenks and then a Gotenks mislynch if it comes to that, and that's one of my bad case scenarios.

We either have Gotenks fire off in the dark, with a fair chance of giving scum a double kill followed by no information for a D3 lynch, or have him recruit me, which has the worst case of having a theoretical roleblocker block the transaction?

 

[Praxis]

phone B8erez (batteries) runnin low but I don't like PM asking us to look deeper when deadline tomorrow

My statement was specifically to Gordito, and I was asking him to reexamine it, not do perform more discussion.

 

[Praxis]

Post 943 was directed at Swiss 940 but double ninja'd.

 

[mentosman8]

So, uh, nothing really big happened yesterday when I was playing Goldeneye Wii and forgetting to post. Good to know.

Still not going to go with PM's plan. Almost want to switch to him, since as scum pushing me to recruit him would result in a double kill for mafia, and make his death less painful. Gonna think about this a bit more, as I hadn't really considered the option, and Dark Horse's posts have been a bit better. Leaving my vote where it is while I think though, definitely have my decision up by the end of the night though since I probly won't be able to post much before a lynch occurs tomorrow working for most of my waking hours, and won't be home till around 10PM which doesn't give much time. I'll be back tonight for sure.

 

[Praxis]

Keep in mind that if you recruit and hit scum, mafia gets double NK *and* you die without any connections. =/

I recognize that you're afraid of me being scum and landing a double NK as a result, but that's genuinely not as bad as the potential alternative (you recruit scum, die, and we never find out who it was). I know I am town and that your worst case scenario cannot happen, but I also know you can't be expected to believe me at face value on that. I'm pushing what I believe to be the best town choice from where I sit, clearing the greatest suspect and removing the two greatest suspects in one go as well as confirming your role.

But from your perspective- consider that my option is that of least risk. Your worst case scenario still nets a scum flip.

Regardless, whatever you decide, please give us some stances to mitigate the damage done if you die tonight from your recruit. Don't tell me who is town, and don't breadcrumb your recruit target. If you die toNight we get nothing.

Who do you think is scum right now?

(sorry if I'm not writing very well, on phone. Not driving though . )

 

[Fans for Sell]

Really I think the main problem we're having is that you all think Peach Monster and Dark Horse are important and we don't. I'll need to actually read to respond to specific issues but between those two, if you're all set to narrow it like that, we would choose Dark Horse.

Pardon, just passing through.

 

[Fans for Sell]

Pfft EBWOP, not "we" but "I" and "we" don't fully decide something is important unless both "I"'s agree, and we've been crosseyed, so to speak.

 

[Chuckie]

@PM: I understand, but scum can and will **** things up for town.

Have you heard of the term "follow the cop" before?

It's basically this situation.

3 Scum
1 Town Cop
1 Town Doc
7 Town Vanillas

Day 1 Cop claims. Either by choice or he is put to L-1. In the event that mafia doesn't counter claim, he is confirmed town. That night doc protects him obv and the next day town play based on his results. Unless mafia can successfully hit the doc, the game becomes a situation where scum hunting is moslty substituted for following the cop's information.

That's why even simple games have things like Godfather, Miller, Roleblocker, Macho Cop, etc.

Now our game. If a game was designed where the cult recruiter could potentially claim at any time during the day (forced or non forced) and become a bigger asset to town (as he potentially is in this situation) then he would of been without scum knowing his role, than that is bad game design.

This game would of been reviewed by Marshy/Xiivi/S2. You don't make a game where you can have a "follow the cop" situation.

No matter how 'potentially' powerful your plan can be, 9 times out of 10 something is going to stop it from working properly.

Not saying mentos is now useless, but the one thing scum doesn't know is who he is going to target. Maybe scum have a role blocker? Maybe they have a tracker? Who knows, but I bet we're still going to be pulling our hair out over what he claims tomorrow.

I trust mentos (if he's town lol) is smart enough to pick someone who isn't scum. If no one except him knows who he recruits, the only way scum can **** it up is if they kill mentos, and try to make it look like a mismason, or if they have a roleblocker and they block him.

To me that's much better than having to worry about what happens if he tries to kill you, or you kill him, or you both claim town, or you both die, or whatever. Too much wifom already that scum will be able manipulate, and town will most likely misinterpret.

/rant

---

Still have no clue between pm/dh. Don't really care at this stage. Just want this day to end already >.<.

 

[Chuckie]

tl;dr: worst case scenario IS going to happen. We're not going to wake up tomorrow with 2 confirmed townies under our belt.

 

[Praxis]

Hm.
I'm familiar with that strategy from IRL mafia- I've had dumb cops respond to the mod and be obvcop, lol.

I've been trying to craft this in a manner so that all of the worst case scenarios are mitigated. Scum kills me? Mentos stays suspect, town loses potential mislynch. Vice versa, same thing. Roleblocker? Would've happened regardless, no information gleaned. We are scum? Great, you caught us, sucks mentos died. Meanwhile scum worries about where the doctor is gonna land his protect.

If all of you feel strongly, though, I'll defer to your experience. >_<

I'll try to get Edrees to get on here and get some final thoughts for tonight if he can. Mentos, please do give some stances unrelated to your recruit attempt for the case of your death and town flip, unless you feel it'll contribute to your night action being followed. Maybe just say which player you think is scummiest outside of myself and DH?

Also, chuckie, keep in mind that scum might also reach the same conclusion and kill the same townie player again.

 

[Xivii]

-It would be dumb to auto lynch Gotenks for a failed recruit. Not sure why you would say such a thing PM.

-DH: I see you have been playing epic mafia hm. About how many times have you been scum? Don't lie, I can check.

-Yeah we probably shouldn't go with PMs plan.

-Gordito: Why would you think it would be a good idea for Gotenks to breadcrum??

FFS: You can easily give the views of each of your halves. Stop being useless or die. ****.

Swiss: Why did you not switch to PM when theman went inactive?

 

[Deleted member]

Posting out of the hydra account to say...

@Mod: I am sorry to have to do this, even thought me and Sold2 have managed to replace jPSi, and in such close time to the deadline, but I need to replace out of this game. School have been taking up way too much time for me and I do not have the sufficent amount of time that is needed to play Mafia decently and balance real life, even in a hydra. I can wait to be replaced out until the end of Day 2, but I will not have anymore time to play afterward. There are more importants things in life that I need to deal with first. Mafia is not one of them.

I'll try to address some things directed at us first, thought, before leaving this game. If there's anything you need to ask me or something I need to address between now and the game deadline, ask as soon as possible. I want to make sure I leave the game:

@XSword: Regarding the nitpicking argument, I like to make sure my posts contain a good amount of information that is gathered from here and help catch scums. Large posts like my last one is IMO, how I play Mafia the best. Occasionally, I can summerize when I have to, but I want to try to address everything that I feel needs to be mentioned or directed at us.

@Peach Monster: 1. Regarding the question you asked that, we already addressed it in our last major post here. If you still don't see it, I will quote it for your convience.

2. Regarding the whisy-washy argument while discussing you, its because the vast majority of our suspicion on you revolves around the case made by other player. I (SSBF) don't tend to have as strong as a scum read on players when we just agree with the majority of the case. My top scum reads are almost always when I have attacked them well enough to have a solid case on them.

@mentosman8 (#857): All I have to say is this: Scums who have familiarity with the series and are experienced players are capable of making up any believable fake claim. This is why I am not going to denide the possibility of you making up a fake breadcrumb in less then thirty minutes of time.

@CottonLicky: 1. Then why did you say back eariler "Newbies are so easy to claim?" I thought that meant that you thought newbies in general were easy to clear. Now you're saying that you would not do this aside from Dark Horse, not even to another newbie. Too much cognitive dissonance for my liking.

2. Quick Topics, while a highly preferred style, is not a required form of scum communication. In Smash Bros. Mafia, I was scum with ChiboSempai and The Paprika Killer. We contacted each other via AIM and MSN, but not Quick Topic. Townies in the end, do not even know how scums communicate with each other.

@Dark Horse (#874): What does taking another read have to do with bumping Regal Cheese off your scum list? You didn't even bother to explain how he's improved his play to where he isn't a scum read.

As for your second response, the reason why I asked that question is because mentosman8 living to the next day =/= him being town. If anything, any evidence that doesn't support his claim tomorrow points him toward being very likely scum (Eg. claiming to not have successfully recruited or claiming to have successfully recruited, but said person say he's lying).

Will get to Spaghebti tomorrow. It's a school night and midnight, not an idea time to be up.

 

[Xivii]

FFS:

1. Yes I said newbies are very easy to clear. I never said they can all be cleared in the same way. The way I ''cleared'' DH is case specific and only applies to DH at that given time. Attempting to get anything to determine his alignment in a future game by asking him the same question would just be wrong. You see what I'm saying? If so please reexplain in your own words.

2. Since they were given a QT I doubt they wouldn't use it. Especially since it's much more difficult to get 6 people for IM.

 

[Xivii]

(Got cut off)

That you're not fine making this assumption worries me.


Also I need to stop saying "cleared". No one is ever cleared. I simply have a town view of DH. He's not cleared. Sorry for saying other wise.

 

[Chuckie]

I should flip a coin. Heads we lynch Dark Horse, tails we lynch EP. Any objections?

 

[Chuckie]

Hey spaghebti I know you're there somewhere. Wanna hammer Dark Horse? I really would be fine if you did so.

 

[Chuckie]

O hai there Dark Horse.

Also FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF @ this

and dere was me jus' lookin' for a new sig.

I have to watch myself

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

-DH: I see you have been playing epic mafia hm. About how many times have you been scum? Don't lie, I can check.

I'm addicted to it x_x. 7 times, though epic mafia & forum mafia are pretty different when it comes to finding out scum (ex: in epicmfia, people will claim their powers roles and what they got, even with the chance that the maf might kill them. )

Also, my statistics are hardly accurate, as I've played more roles than that (ex: i've been oracle like 4 times, and lightkeeper 3, and a vig once. I'm pretty sure there's more, I just forgot it.)

@Dark Horse (#874): What does taking another read have to do with bumping Regal Cheese off your scum list? You didn't even bother to explain how he's improved his play to where he isn't a scum read.

I just went back, read again, and changed my mind, as there isn't as much evidence as I thought there was.