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Guide Guide to Desynching: treat your opponents even more coldly

Bummerz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 8, 2008
Messages
96
thx this is awesome. b4 this i was lost with ic's but after a few hours of practice my buds are in for some beatdowns. i love how u can keep pressure all sorts of ways to set up for grab combos.

now i just need to learn how to play yoshi. that fool is another weird character that i have trouble playing. other than that im all set just need to practice with them ice climber folks
 

SpongeBathBill

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
651
Location
Kamloops, BC
As hesitant as I am to necropost...

Exarch said:
12. n00b Nana Desynch- Occasionally when landing from doing and aerial, sometimes Nana fails to Lcancel it. Abuse the fact that Nana has more lag than Popo and desynch them. I can't so this one consistently, and don't have a full knowledge of how it works. If anyone does figure it out then post it. I have also had only Nana do something after an lcanceled aerial, I'll look more into this one. Still don't have a 100% way of doing this, seems to happen more often with uair though.
Maybe I'm just being stupid, but I had a bit of an idea on this one.

Nana has a 6-frame difference in action from Popo
L-canceling has a 20-frame window - you must input L within 20 frames of touching the ground

So, it may be that from time to time, Nana is too far from the ground to l-cancel when you input L, but Popo is within the timing window and performs correctly.

Does this make any sense? My immediate thought is that Nana should be airdodging if that's the case, but idk, maybe it's something. Or not. Sorry, I'm not being stupid on purpose ><
 

exarch

doot doot doot
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
3,333
Location
Usually not playing Brawl. Location: Enterprise
That makes some sense. (Random that I'd actually look at this thread today)

However I always figured if Nana's 6 frames behind, all of her inputs are 6 frames behind too, so an Lcancel shield press should be lagged 6 frames behind for her as well. But maybe not. :/

And she wouldn't be airdodging because she'd be busy doing an aerial before she was told to airdodge.
 

Hozart

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
403
Location
Orlando, near UCF
Nana has a 6-frame difference in action from Popo
L-canceling has a 20-frame window - you must input L within 20 frames of touching the ground

So, it may be that from time to time, Nana is too far from the ground to l-cancel when you input L, but Popo is within the timing window and performs correctly.
Good explanation. Haven't given thought to this desynch in years. I'll put some time into this and see if I can try and do it consistently. Due to its difficulty, it'll be months after this post (2 to 3), before I can get a video up.

Exarch said:
That makes some sense. (Random that I'd actually look at this thread today)
Haha, random indeed! Of all the threads to look at!

Exarch said:
However I always figured if Nana's 6 frames behind, all of her inputs are 6 frames behind too, so an Lcancel shield press should be lagged 6 frames behind for her as well. But maybe not. :/
That's my guess as well, but the noob Nana Desynch does exists somehow, so we'll see. I'll put in some time once I've mastered other fast desynchs. I'm still working on effective dash-dance desynch and I am mildly consistent. Pivot desynch is the easiest fast desynch at the moment and works really well.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
I'm not sure about what SBB said since I'd guess that Nana's 20 frame window to L-cancel would start 6 frames after Popo's window, which wouldn't result in anything weird.

My best guess is that it has something to do with that funky long-range force that pushes Nana towards Popo when she's sort of close to him, although I don't understand that force very well and I'm not particularly confident in this explanation.

Since Popo is generally a bit lower than Nana when falling to the ground, that force might push Nana downward and make her hit the ground faster than she would otherwise, which could mess up the timing on her L-cancels.

For example, let's say the ICs are synched and Popo shffls a fair where he inputs the L-cancel right before he hits the ground. Right after he fastfalls, Nana is a bit higher than him, and thus she might be pushed downward and hit the ground earlier than she would otherwise, perhaps before she even receives the L-cancel command.
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,039
Location
Portland, Oregon
L canceling only has a 7 frame window though... not 20, teching has a 20 frame window, also if Nana is getting commands six frames later than popo, she will jump 6 frames later, fast fall 6 frames later and l cancel 6 frames later, everything lines up perfectly fine for her to shffl the same as you, what changes this is hitstun, and I still don't know how to explain when or why this happens, I can't get hit desynchs consistently at all, I just try and take advantage of it when I do notice it happen.

@ professor spot dodge hold a command, dash dance left right then left and press down b, 2 very easy desynchs, CONTINUOUS desynching actually takes some practice getting used to the character, at least before you can apply it in matches.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
Okay, although the number of frames in the window is actually irrelevant here.

And not quite everything necessarily lines up the same way since, as I mentioned, Nana gets pushed towards Popo when they're fairly close to each other. For example, if you desynch the ICs and have Nana jump while Popo remain on the ground, Nana will jump fairly low and not stay in the air that long while if Nana remains on the ground and Popo jumps, Popo jumps higher than Nana and stays in the air longer than she does since he doesn't get pushed towards Nana.

Anyways, I just tested this a bit and when I shffl'd an aerial and pressed L right before landing, Popo would always L-cancel and Nana usually wouldn't, which is consistent with what I proposed. This worked when I didn't hit anything, so hitstun isn't necessary for this desynch.

This also worked when I didn't fastfall, but I'm not totally sure how to explain this, although I have a couple guesses. Does anybody know if you spend more time falling than rising when you short hop and don't fastfall?

Also, does anybody know why the short hop -> fastfall desynch works? I think that might be related to this desynch.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,259
Location
Massachusetts
I was under the impression that SH -> FF works because Nana is still in the air when you input jump. Normally she receives a command and does it 6 frames later, but maybe she doesn't when the action isn't possible. People seem to be saying this isn't true, because it would be legal 6 frames later. That idea doesn't make much sense anyways because sometimes Nana double jumps if you input jump when she's in the air and you're on the ground.

I agree that it is linked to other landing desynchs -- if you input ice block/d-air/u-air the frame before landing only Popo responds. It seems like Nana doesn't respond to l-canceling after a certain point either.
 

Hozart

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 27, 2003
Messages
403
Location
Orlando, near UCF
Ok, I think I discovered another desynch that I'll find a way to make useful, and that doesn't seem to take into account the "Nana should input the command 6 frames later" rule.

If you wavedash off of a platform and do an aerial fast enough, Nana won't follow suit for some reason. It probably has to be within that 6 frame window. If both Popo and Nana do the aerial, you weren't fast enough. You should see Nana simply fall off the platform with you.

It's a little tricky to have Nana do something if you L-cancel your aerial, but if you don't L-cancel it's easy, but IMO not L-canceling the aerial is impractical in battle where you must always be fast.

You don't need to fastfall for this desynch to work, you just have to do the aerial fast enough.

I think this proves that Nana inputting a command 6 frames later is certainly not an absolute and we probably shouldn't eliminate the possibility that this rule is being broken.
 

Alpha Dash

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
857
Location
London / Croydon
I'm learning and I'm adapting. Its about knowing when to use certain desynching methods and not doing it too often against characters such as CF.
 

j3ly

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
2,001
Location
London
jab -> overB -> dtilt -> usmash -> uair -> uair

that is all.
 

ipownoobz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
13
just a question... does anyone know how to smash the opponent ( so they're supposed to fly away) and immediately grab them?? i can do it but i have no idea how im doing it XD :dizzy:
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
6,915
Location
Indianapolis
dang you when to the wrong thread fly was just talking about that.

Needs more details. like do you alreally have hold of them or did you like WD up and F-smash or something or a random de-synce?
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
There are many ways of doing that. I usually roll to the edge, sit in my shield a bit, up-B OoS, and have Nana drift to the edge. There are other ways of doing more or less the same thing that are probably better.
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,039
Location
Portland, Oregon
You can spot dodge buffer a jump and have her airdodge off and grab it, I don't know if thats better than belay in any way since I don't really use either but it might be fun to experiment with and you can do it from further away from the ledge.
 

Epic!

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
8
Location
Québec City
I don't seem to be able to do the landing (number 6) desynch, I managed to get it like twice after 9001 tries... Is it that the timing really tight? Do i need to fast fall my jump before? Are there any tips i should use to get this desynch?
 

DerfMidWest

Fresh Eskimo
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
4,063
Location
Cleveland, OH
Slippi.gg
SOFA#941
Link on that one please? Can't find it on the forums.
you are quoting a super old post here, I'm not sure if the guy even used swf anymore.
I'd recommend Fly's guide, which is more up to date than the old Undrdog guide.
It's stickied here on the IC boards.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,259
Location
Massachusetts
There are many ways of doing that. I usually roll to the edge, sit in my shield a bit, up-B OoS, and have Nana drift to the edge. There are other ways of doing more or less the same thing that are probably better.
I know this post is over 3 years old, but currently this is the best way I've found:

- dash towards the ledge
- dash away, right before you reach the ledge
- immediately shield (ideally on the same frame you turn around)
- Nana will slide off while shielding and grab the ledge pretty quickly
 
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DerfMidWest

Fresh Eskimo
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
4,063
Location
Cleveland, OH
Slippi.gg
SOFA#941
I actually did that by accident the other day and was going to pop in here and see if anyone knew how it happened.
I figured out a similar one using teeter canceling, but nana seems to randomly not turn around before jumping, it's weird.

Another fun one I found is using a PC drop desync to instant bair with popo and have nana hold the ledge. I'm a lot less consistent with these than I'd like to be though.

(to clarify I'm talking about that janky fake PC drop we can do because we can turn around in the waveland animation)
 
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ArcDawn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
157
3DS FC
1993-8333-6433
idk if this counts as an initial dash desync/if this that be found already, but I was playing around today and found that from inputting a dash in the opposite direction ur facing + a smash attack w/ c-stick u can desync (Upsmash and downsmash let you control nana while sidesmash lets you control popo) which can be potentially useful I think (smash as a shield pressure + free nana or popo grab or downsmash into quick blizzard or f-smash into DD grab/solosquall+ blizzard/shffl something etc) What do you more experienced climbers think? cuz I haven't seen this type very often in videos I've watched

edit: something cool I found with this trick is if you use the f-smash varient you can get a pretty cool wobble grab setup via f-smash into grab idk if this is DI able tho
 
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shuall

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
155
Location
Philly
idk if this counts as an initial dash desync/if this that be found already, but I was playing around today and found that from inputting a dash in the opposite direction ur facing + a smash attack w/ c-stick u can desync (Upsmash and downsmash let you control nana while sidesmash lets you control popo) which can be potentially useful I think (smash as a shield pressure + free nana or popo grab or downsmash into quick blizzard or f-smash into DD grab/solosquall+ blizzard/shffl something etc) What do you more experienced climbers think? cuz I haven't seen this type very often in videos I've watched

edit: something cool I found with this trick is if you use the f-smash varient you can get a pretty cool wobble grab setup via f-smash into grab idk if this is DI able tho
Ha, yeah, I put up a post on this before, and I imagine some other IC mains found this themselves before me. Keep experimenting, I think this desync is cool, and would like to see it in play. I'm trying to use the dsmash desync to cover two options at once on someone's shield (dsmash->grab), but I don't get many opponents shielding against me as an IC.
 
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