Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

[Player-3]

just go triforce bork on darius

 

[teluoborg]

Or triforce gunblade for healing ults.

 

[Okuser]

the influence of streamers on this game is huge. haven't seen talon in months then all of the sudden he's in 3 of my ranked games a in row and i'm like "what is happening" so I open up twitch and bjergsen has been playing talon on stream. lmao.

 

[Zano]

might as well watch streams to prep for what champs you'll have to deal with

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Honestly it baffles me that Riot can leave a tooltip like Sheen's wrong for so long.

I'm pretty sure half of League's tooltips are just lying to us.

@ Dre89 I've told you a thousand times that Last Whisper is bad on Wukong.

Or triforce gunblade for healing ults.

While you're at it, buy a liandries to augment your passive!

 

[Dre89]

You think LW is bad on Wu because you don't like me building damage on him outside of BC, not because you've calculated that it's inefficient damage-wise. You even lied about me building 5 damage items on him for some reason. I've literally never done that, unless you count Frozen Mallet as a damage item.

Speaking of LW, I'm confused about how LW interacts with BC. BC is calculated before LW because %shred is calculated before %pen. So does that when I attack someone, my BC shred is lowering the amount I pen with LW?

For example suppose the target has 100 armour. If I attack them, BC is calculated first so it shreds their armour to 95. So does that mean that my LW is only penetrating 35% of 95 instead of 100?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

no i tell you its bad because it ****ing is bad

Armor reduction, flat
Armor reduction, percentage
Armor penetration, percentage
Armor penetration, flat

From the wiki ^

it's calculated:

Flat Armor Reduction first (Nasus Spirit Fire?)
% Armor Reduction second (Black Cleaver, Kog'Maw Q, Jarvan's Q WUKONG'S Q etc)
Armor Pen % (Last Whisper)
Armor Pen Flat (Runes)

So yes, your BC and Q is completely invalidating your LW.

100 armor - 55% of armor = 45 armor

now Last Whisper takes off 35% of that

GRATS, YOUR LAST WHISPER IS REMOVING 15 ARMOR

GOLD EFFICIENCY WHERe

 

[Dre89]

I know the order. I figured that's how it worked, just wanted to clarify.

I buy LW to enhance my E-(hydra)-Q burst. E will still penetrate 100% of their armour, and the next attack, whether it be hydra or Q, is still penetrating 95%. Still, getting confirmation about the LW mitigation may alter my jungle build.

 

[Shaya]

But what if you like killing tanks too?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

But what if you like killing tanks too?

Please don't encourage him ;___;

 

[adumbrodeus]

But what if you like killing tanks too?

Ok lets break this down.

Percent armor reduction stacks multiplicatively so, 100*.75*.70 = 52.5 reduction from crushing blow + fully stacked BC. Now Multiply by .65 and we get a final value, with fully stacked BC + crushing blow, last whisper will penetrate 34.125% of the target's armor. Flat armor penetration is valued at 12 gold per point, and last whisper is a 2300 gold item, it's AD is valued at 1440g so to be gold efficient the armor penetration has to be worth at least 860.

.34125*12= 4.095 so last whisper's armor penetration passive is worth 4.095 gold per point of armor, 860/4.095 = 210 (rounded up). At 300 it's 1229 gold which is decent in gold efficiency but the slot efficiency is poor, but it's not unreasonable for a main tank. Ummmmm the takeaway is as a last item in a long game when you're dealing with like a malphite or somebody else that builds a ton of armor but it's gonna be an insane luxury item because while it's gold efficient in a really really long game it won't be slot efficient compared to the stats/abilities you can get from higher price point items unless you're dealing with like a 450 armor main tank, in which case your team is probably all AD so it might be worth it.

Edit: Obviously the stated gold value isn't the be all end all of the item's efficiency in terms of raw damage but my calculation allows you to easily see how LW contributes to actual armor penetrated on Wukong, even if the estimate of the actual gold value of that penetration is very rough.

 

[Shaya]

I suppose you then need to also consider the base damage of his abilities as well.
Likely a LW will turn better towards a tank at a lot lower than 450 armor in those scenarios?

 

[Asdioh]

Nerf healing, remove grievous wounds. Nerf armor/mr, remove last whisper/void staff. Bam, balanced game, less math required, thank me later.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Remove % damage.

Also there was some video of "All the OP characters in Solo queue" and Talon was in there, that might've influenced some people too outside of BJERGERKING SOTROLL

 

[Dre89]

I feel like gold efficiency is a fool's gold though. The doran's items are gold efficient but you wouldn't buy one 30 minutes into a game. Also I'm pretty sure some of the support goldgen items are gold efficient without their gold gen mechanics but you wouldn't buy one if they didn't have the goldgen mechanics. Gold efficiency really only matters if you're starved for gold ie. you're a support or you're just really far behind.

I suppose you then need to also consider the base damage of his abilities as well.
Likely a LW will turn better towards a tank at a lot lower than 450 armor in those scenarios?

Wukong can't burst tanks in a spell rotation unless he gets really far ahead in the mid game. I'm starting to think of LW is more of an ADC exclusive item now. 20 flatpen plus high AD is probably enough to burst a squishy at all stages of the game. Thus flatpen is probably better itemisation for bursting squishies because it's stronger than LW against them early and mid too.

LW is obviously for tanks but AD casters don't burst tanks anyway so it should LW should just be left for the ADCs. I suppose it's poor efficiency compared to flatpen is why it's so cheap.

 

[Shaya]

You can't singlehandedly 1v5 and win games unless you can actually kill everyone on the enemy team.
No you wouldn't expect Wu to kill a tank in his rotation, but with all the mixtures of % damage (including higher values for current or higher values for lower health) you can down things pretty quickly. You don't want to lose to tanks 1v1 either if you want to be that resourceful split pusher too.

Talking about singlehandedly 1v5ing and winning games, Warwick please... It's bizarre to say/think that he actually came out on top with all the feral flare nerfs/changes. First rotation of the jungle you're at madreds, second rotation you're at 6 coming into wiggles (or have it already). Getting assists on WW is so ****ing simple with W. I get a few levels in Q first (2, 4, 5) and then max out E. "Who needs map awareness when you can just go farm the jungle until suddenly you realise you're in GOTTAGOFASTMODE". You're literally a walking play machine while also being the terminator who will **** your entire team up if 1 person is sub 50% health. Every lane has to lose and he has to be counter jungled from both buffs early game to be completely put out of the game.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I suppose you then need to also consider the base damage of his abilities as well.
Likely a LW will turn better towards a tank at a lot lower than 450 armor in those scenarios?

well one point of AD is 3 times the gold cost and against a 210 armor, let's take his ult for example, each tick is 20/110/200 + 110% AD, his base damage at level 18 is 112, so at 18 that's base 123.2 + 200 = 323.2

Damage reduction is calculated as a percent so 100 / (100 + Armor) gives us 32.258% of the damage gets through or 67.742% reduction. So, 104.258 base damage per tick. 1.10*.32258 = .35484 damage added by each point of AD.

On hand for armor penetration we get the function 1(1+2.10-.01x)*323.2 where x is the number of points of armor penetration you have. That means for 3 versus 4 armor effective armor pen we're looking at 105.6209 - 105.2769, which is youser .344 damage which is almost 3 times as much damage for each point of gold value. Granted it's a really high base damage spell and it's at the point where wukong has the most raw stats so the multiplier is the greatest, but still it's surprising.

I think it would be a lot less if we subbed in auto-attacks though, i just really don't wanna run through the calculatations again.

I feel like gold efficiency is a fool's gold though. The doran's items are gold efficient but you wouldn't buy one 30 minutes into a game. Also I'm pretty sure some of the support goldgen items are gold efficient without their gold gen mechanics but you wouldn't buy one if they didn't have the goldgen mechanics. Gold efficiency really only matters if you're starved for gold ie. you're a support or you're just really far behind.

No, gold efficency matters even on big items because it's a matter of return on investment. The reason that we don't just buy infinite dorans is slot efficiency which I talked about in LW. Most games DON'T go to 6 items so you rarely reach a point where slot efficiency of big items really comes into play, but if something is neither gold efficient nor slot efficient there is no justification for getting it ever.

Wukong can't burst tanks in a spell rotation unless he gets really far ahead in the mid game. I'm starting to think of LW is more of an ADC exclusive item now. 20 flatpen plus high AD is probably enough to burst a squishy at all stages of the game. Thus flatpen is probably better itemisation for bursting squishies because it's stronger than LW against them early and mid too.

LW is obviously for tanks but AD casters don't burst tanks anyway so it should LW should just be left for the ADCs. I suppose it's poor efficiency compared to flatpen is why it's so cheap.[/quote]

Well the efficiency is entirely based on the opponent's armor, but because of the multiplicative interaction with percent armor pen and %armor reduction characters with those things in their kits shouldn't get it. If they have flat armor reduction in their kits it's even worse.

You can't singlehandedly 1v5 and win games unless you can actually kill everyone on the enemy team.
No you wouldn't expect Wu to kill a tank in his rotation, but with all the mixtures of % damage (including higher values for current or higher values for lower health) you can down things pretty quickly. You don't want to lose to tanks 1v1 either if you want to be that resourceful split pusher too.

Talking about singlehandedly 1v5ing and winning games, Warwick please... Its bizarre to say/think that he actually came out on top with all the feral flare nerfs. First rotation of the jungle you're at madreds, second rotation you're at 6 coming into wiggles or at the least 6. Getting assists/kills on WW is so ****ing simple with W. I get a few levels in Q first (2, 4, 5) and then max out E. "Who needs map awareness when you can just go farm the jungle until suddenly you realise you're in GOTTAGOFASTMODE". You're literally a walking play machine.

Except his early clears are the slowest thing in the universe, you're either gonna get counterjungled to hell and back or the enemy jungler is gonna have already applied crazy disruption to your lanes by the time you can do basically anything. Quite possibly both.

 

[Shaya]

I can start with a pink ward or 2 pots/1 ward. So generally I've just been ensuring complete river coverage from 1.30-4minutes or so. WW isn't necessarily a bad duelist in opportunistic moments early game. Counter jungling will probably put the enemy jungler behind comparatively. I've yet to see consistency in a team shutting down lanes (due to jungle help) while also shutting me down as well (due to jungle or other interference). He comes out at level 6 at a pretty good time due to how little he needs to back/full health/low mana cost shindig.

He's also one of few junglers to be able to do white wraith early/effectively/quickly. It's pretty good xp.

 

[Boofy!]

New champ, apparently it's a Dr Jeckl/Mr Hyde Yordle beast.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Gnar; The Rumble/Trundle Fusion.
Cool. A top laner right? I forget.

 

[Boofy!]

word on the street its a top laner yes. and if the tantrum meter is his then we have yet another manaless top lane to add to the mix.

 

[Ussi]

I'm gonna do an experiment and try mikael's crucibal Maokai jungle, and probably other mana hungry support junglers. Gives MR, CDR, and that amazing mana regen that i think it might work. Plus dat active.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

oh hey there are a lot of cool people in this thread

whssup

 

[teluoborg]

Wait a minute, you changed your name but I'd recognize that signature anywhere. Was that Brosuke ?

Speaking about Warwick, there's that d1 ww main who did a 2h video guide. I think his name on youtube was Iamcrvor, I'd post the link if there weren't filters for youtube at my workplace.

In other news an early phage is OP on Cho Gath top, ancient golem is crap on Volibear jungle and apparently Feral Quill jungle Nunu works very well.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yeah dude, we met that one tournament a while back. How you been?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Feral Quill nunu.
That sounds legit compared to people doing Madstone udyr lol.

Also that WW guide wasn't just made it was posted a year ago unless he made another one. I play a decent amount of warwick jungle on another account so I might watch the old one even if a year ago.

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah I highly recommend it even though the guy's english accent makes it hard to concentrate, imo it's the most complete guide in the history of league, and beside a few things like upgrading the lantern it's still completely relevant. And I don't even play Warwick.


@Xonar : well I've been doing good, sandbagging in pm, feeding in lol, the usual stuff. Do you actually play league or have you just stumbled upon this thread by chance ?

 

[Asdioh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjgarXn_alo this video? I remember watching a lot of this video way back when because this dude's voice was so fun to listen to :3 I didn't even own WW at the time, until he dropped to 450ip. Then I bought him and never play him anyway.
"gonking"

ancient golem is crap on Volibear jungle

How so?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

@Xonar : well I've been doing good, sandbagging in pm, feeding in lol, the usual stuff. Do you actually play league or have you just stumbled upon this thread by chance ?

Sounds like the good life. And yeah dude, I do. I play on the NA servers (170 ping masterrace) plat 5, tho i dropped to gold4 so in actuality im just a gold scrub :D

 

[teluoborg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjgarXn_alo this video? I remember watching a lot of this video way back when because this dude's voice was so fun to listen to :3 I didn't even own WW at the time, until he dropped to 450ip. Then I bought him and never play him anyway.
"gonking"
How so?

Yeah that's the one, and the problem with Voli and Quill/Golem is that with your E you can't proc it and without it you don't get enough sustain. It could work with 9/21 masteries maybe but if I do that I fear the clears would become even slower.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I'm gonna do an experiment and try mikael's crucibal Maokai jungle, and probably other mana hungry support junglers. Gives MR, CDR, and that amazing mana regen that i think it might work. Plus dat active.

I already witnessed it. It was awful.

But let me explain why instead of just throwing the "it was bad" routine out there. You're playing Maokai, right? So you almost certainly have an Ancient Golem as your jungling item because it's the most optimal choice. This means you get more rewards from stacking health. If you need the active, then you need the item, but that's the only reason why you should consider this item over other things. If you want MR and CDR, there's Locket, which you can arguably get faster than your support can/should, and that also gives health which stacks with your Ancient Golem, giving bonus health (while also providing supportive actives for your team). If you want the CDR, you get more from Frozen Heart, which is actually /better/ overall than Randuin's because you get so much health from Ancient Golem that it's actually more efficient than Randuin's is. This also helps Maokai's mana pool by increasing it (it's something like 500 mana which is about 3 spell rotations for Maokai, not counting his ult). If you want the combination of MR+Mana sustain, I guess that's what you'd want it for, but it'd be easy to sit on a Glacial+Negatron+Ruby for about the same price.

So, tl;dr, only get the item if you absolutely need the active. There are better choices that you, as a tank, can make in terms of your build.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Also Feral Quill Nunu...he just gets so much more out of the tank stats and the health stacking effect from Ancient Golem than the on-hit effect of Feral Flare, even if it buffs his horrid clear up somewhat.

Gnar has been released onto the PBE now. Riot managed to make another top laner that looks like a fantastic jungler. It happened with Vi, it happened again with Aatrox (to a lesser extent than Vi), and with all the CC that Gnar has along with clearspeed from mini Gnar's W, he should be a very capable jungler.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I know it'll prob be ass just like Jayce, but I wanna try Gnar as ADC lol.

 

[teluoborg]

New champ looks like his brokeness will depend on how much control you have of your shape shifting. And that ult automatically makes him a member of the table flip team.

Also Feral Quill Nunu...he just gets so much more out of the tank stats and the health stacking effect from Ancient Golem than the on-hit effect of Feral Flare, even if it buffs his horrid clear up somewhat.

Well what does Nunu get from health ? He already has high as heck base health, doesn't scale with health like Sej, Naut or Voli, he doesn't even synergize from golem's passive like Cho would thanks to his ult.
Feral, on top of giving him better clears, synergizes with his passive and his W and coupled with his E allows him to outpummel people to death. I'm not saying golem won't work as sometimes you really want to get tanky, but feral quill (and haunting guise as third item) gives Nunu a lot of duel potential.

 

[Player-3]

eating a rock guy gives him 10% increased hp

so he gets a lot of hp

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I know it'll prob be *** just like Jayce, but I wanna try Gnar as ADC lol.

his range scales from 400 to 500 at level 11 iirc, so I wouldn't try haha.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Adorable skin is adorable

 

[Ussi]

I already witnessed it. It was awful.

But let me explain why instead of just throwing the "it was bad" routine out there. You're playing Maokai, right? So you almost certainly have an Ancient Golem as your jungling item because it's the most optimal choice. This means you get more rewards from stacking health. If you need the active, then you need the item, but that's the only reason why you should consider this item over other things. If you want MR and CDR, there's Locket, which you can arguably get faster than your support can/should, and that also gives health which stacks with your Ancient Golem, giving bonus health (while also providing supportive actives for your team). If you want the CDR, you get more from Frozen Heart, which is actually /better/ overall than Randuin's because you get so much health from Ancient Golem that it's actually more efficient than Randuin's is. This also helps Maokai's mana pool by increasing it (it's something like 500 mana which is about 3 spell rotations for Maokai, not counting his ult). If you want the combination of MR+Mana sustain, I guess that's what you'd want it for, but it'd be easy to sit on a Glacial+Negatron+Ruby for about the same price.

So, tl;dr, only get the item if you absolutely need the active. There are better choices that you, as a tank, can make in terms of your build.

I've tried buying mana items, such as glacial shroud but I still run out of mana too often and fast :/ also there is no good MR + mana item for when I need to itemize against double AP.

 

[Asdioh]

Rylais now has it's own tier of AP, right below deathcap/zhonyas/dfg. Hype for Malzahar. I also find myself not needing mana items on him much after his constant spell mana cost decreases.
Also new champion is (I haven't actually read yet)
edit: it's video games

 

[Zano]

OK SO WHERE'S MY UPDATED TITLE THREAD **** BRAUM HE'S OLD NEWS