Gliding over tall buildings in a single shuttle loop: The Meta Knight Social

[sneakytako]

Yooo watup bpow welcome to the MK forums.

I love autoland nair. I don't know how/why it works, but its retardedly good lol

 

[Chesstiger2612]

It works because MKs outer hirbox spins and is counted as body part, it starts right in front of him and he spins down first. Because you are probably almost at jump apex your upward velocity is smaller than the downward velocity of the lowest body part triggering a land, so...
Not that it changes anything, just fyi

EDIT: Also, how did you figure out?

 

[sneakytako]

I was just messing around with platform followups, then I saw I could land with nair and have like no lag lol.

It seems a lot faster than you can normally L cancel nair, I just never understood the mechanics of it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

No it is no autocancel you still need to L-cancel it, it just seems faster because you do not do the last part of the jump.
You can combo so much with it, I am actually convinced f.e. Battlefield is no real neutral with MK on it because he can go in so hard there

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Are you guys using:
- Nair ledgecancel ledgegrab
- Side-b intangibility refresh

How do you do the first one?
Gonna learn the second one now.
Also, has anyone else found success in doing a rising uair after a nair and then falling down with something? I've been doing work with it lately, if they jump, free combo, if not, I usually see them trying to punish the nair, I guess these people are a bit slow. I did see squeak do it a few times and it worked for him

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Hinichii.ez.™
Basically you need momentum towards the edge and facing in the opposite direction and nair and you land directly next to it.
You can use it best after a RAR or platform drop while holding backwards.
Nair->up-air barely works (only those hitboxes that you barely get truly combo on it like the upward spinning one), I normally try to use MK's movement to techchase after a nair. If I get an up-air though (mostly when anti-airing diagonal approaches or platform techchasing where I like one up-air to counter non-techers and then do a autoland nair).
Up-air->falling something works great, I usually footstool or nair. Bair is also legit if the opponent does not have a combo breaker.

 

[BPx]

any vids of intangibility refresh?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

How good is side b when recovering? I've been using it a bit, but I don't wanna get to comfortable if it's easy to punish. I've been going for the sweet spots, and it's holding well. Btw
Can you do anything with an edge canceled one? Like how falco and fox side b and ledge cancel it on a platform? Oh and A few times I was center stage, I would do it towards the ledge, hit said person trying to sweet spot and.. Destruction.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I mostly use it if they already commited to an offstage option, so grabbing the ledge with not enough intangibility frames left to protect you or trying to hit with a dropzone aerial. If you do a side-b the opponent shouldn't be able to wait it out and then punish but he needs to be worrying about protecting himself, only then its good. If he is still onstage side-b is bad.
Side-b ledgecancel is a bit too slow to be really useful. Following up while edgeguarding has a few small niches which are easy to identify though, so just use them if you wouldn't be able to punish otherwise. Mostly dash -> run-cancel ->d-smash /anything will be better though

 

[9bit]

Side-B can grab ledge from surprisingly low, especially if you wait until the last second to angle it upward (this upward angling can also hit the opponent through the stage). I want to do a bit more testing but it might be relatively safe on certain stages, even if the opponent is waiting on stage for you to come back. Like, I think on Smashville, you can be at the level of the underside of the stage and you'll pop up to grab the ledge at the last second.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I wanna discuss usage of MK's jab.
In many situations people are doing it by mistake, but its working out (!). People falling for it weren't that bad actually. This makes me think that the jab is something like a second choice for many scenarios. Most players tend to prepare for a certain action by the opponent which they then "read" by choosing the strongest counter against that exact option.
Jab never seems to be the strongest counter against anything because it doesn't lead into anything, but often it covers more options than the alternatives, maybe making it the strongest in a certain situation even if it isn't the best in any possible reaction.
Rather in escape situations / slightly disadventageous neutral-game positions than in advantageous ones because you wouldn't choose a move that doesn't combo otherwise. In bad situations jab seems to cover much. Application might be for example if your shield is low and some one dash sh's at you and you jab which would cover 3 out of 4 approaches, although ever single one might have a better response

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I was woundering, could it be used to setup edges at all, kinda like marth's second jab setups in melee? I haven't really put it into pratice, but I think I got a thing er two off of that in the past. At best, I think it could be an alright mix up option. If only it ended a lil sooner.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

It has good and bad sides:
The multiple hitboxes cover several options.
Bad sides:
36 frames of animation, not too bad, but if you compare it too f-tilt one (only)'s 20 it is kind of slow.
All hits but the last send up and in, so an experienced player can SDI up to avoid the last and stay safe. The last hit sends at an Sakurai angle, so up and away.

If you just want to stick out a hitbox because you don't know which recovery to expect out of several options, it is a good option. If the opponent is already limited in his options, f-tilt, dsmash, nair and every kind of ledgegrab /dropzone aerial would be prefered.

In the end you will probably chase them or ledgegrab instead of edgeguarding onstage. If you want to cover ledge options it is a different story because with its hitboxes behind MK's hurtboxes, it also covers ledgeroll, together with getup most, dropjump stuff and wait-> anything that goes onstage

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Another option barely used (and hard to pull off) is a ledgecancel aerial instant wavedash on the platform. Its like buffed mobility without L-cancel lag, without jumpsquat and MK has just great ledgecancels in general

 

[Jim Morrison]

So I just had a PM tournament (small) last week, and without having PM and barely having touched it, I picked MK and won. Coming from a pretty decent leveled melee background, how OP is MK. He just felt so incredibly OP to use, easy dash dance, tech chase, everything that's good in Melee, he does it about 10 times better.

Does anyone think there's a big difference between MK players coming from Brawl and Melee? In vids I usually see MK being played pretty slow.

 

[Mind Trick]

LOL Guus
play some high level players and/or mario's first before saying something like that

that said, playing fox in melee probably transfers over better than playing mk in brawl

 

[sneakytako]

MK's jab is just a really bad dsmash. It's covers spotdodges better kinda, they should be CCing if they are spotdodging, and it kinda leads into stuff sometimes maybe?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Nah it doesn't lead into much (except at the edge). I like it when you want to cover more options with a light punish rather than less options with a hard punish, for example close to the ledge, because that "light punish" will still turn into an edgeguard.
For example if I am running at someone who missed there tech but they are out of the missed tech animation I like to jab sometimes. It just beats 4 (roll in both directions because rolls haven't intangibility right away, getup, wait) out of 5 which is pretty good. I also condition them into rolling early to avoid the situation or doing a getup attack which both can be punished harder.

 

[sneakytako]

It covers more options, but every one of those options they can just CC, so I don't like to use it much.

I would prefer to just ftilt once, on shield I can grab them, on a clean hit I can either finish the ftilts or first hit ftilt again and go for a harder punish depending on their DI, or if they CC I can see if I can change the timing on the ftilts to mess them up.

 

[Croi]

Hey guys. So, Mew2King is coming to a tournament I'm going to in a few weeks.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I would like some advice on the Fox MU. I doubt I'll be much of a challenge for him but I'd like to not be totally embarrassed.

Here are a few videos of my MK from a smallish local tourney not too long ago, so you can gauge what I should work on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmARgwWz7HQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THZ0o4VHF8k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjlXAuDym34 if you watch only one video, probably make it this one. I get mad salty at the end though :/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C32iwIEfVfQ but I still won the tourney in the end!

This channel has videos from a more recent and much larger tournament as well but I didn't feel I was on top of my game like I was these ones.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Croi
If I had to sum it up in 4 points
1. move around more for being less predictable
2. try to be more safe (meaning going for less read-situations at up-smash %s against Fox etc.).
3. use more nair
4. control your aerials
Nair is great when a platform is near or you want to cover a certain movement path. Because of its lasting hitbox you can, if combined with the right movement, use it to cover whole areas instead of spots.
Against Fox, slight refinements in the punish game matter.

I will go into detail concerning the Fox game (I'll just do game 1 because most kind of repeats):
0:38 The up-smash -> up-tilt was optimal, but platform drop nair would have worked better than up-air leading to a new techchase situation
0:44 A boost grab would have been better than the dash attack. I use the following thumbrule for dash attack:
- Against opponents from 40-50% on if you could get something else, under this only if you could get nothing else
- Only if you have some counter to CC (either the opponent is in the air, or you crossup far enough to not get punished)
- Only if you hit with the stong hit (frames 4-7)
- Exception: at the edge, so the dash attack will hit him in the dropzone (then also weak hit and low %s are OK)
Same goes for your next dash attack, it wouldn't even be rewarding if it hit.
1:07 As strange as that sounds, but WD back to the ledge would have been pretty good. If you do a perfect ledgedash from there on you have still enough intangibility to work with, it is enough for nair/grab/tilts/d-smash
1:21 Maybe a short dash -> nair which would hit him in the opposite direction. To be fair though, I didn't expect him to SDI the up-smash that well either so I can't criticize you for that
In the entire sequence: grab game could be improved, boost grab for max range and JC grab for the faster and safer option. Little note: If you cancel the dash attack on the 2nd of the cancellable frames the grab range is the biggest
At 1:37 one of your areas where the most improvement is possible weighs in: Controlling your aerials.
You do a horizontally neutral full jump nair, while a dash short hop nair would have clearly hit. The dash also has to be very short so practice the different options until you feel confident with them:
- dash (very often as short as possible, the key point is that you will keep that momentum for your entire jump)
- horizontally forward (tilt the stick forward in jumpsquat frames)
- horizontally neutral
- horizontally backward (tilt the stick backward in jumpsquat frames)
These different horizontal movement options can be combined with the obvious vertical movement options:
- short hop
- full jump
Controlling your aerials occurs several times, but I think one example is enough. Same goes for controlling your midair jumps (you only have 3 horizontal and one vertical option here, but still there was one up-b that would have reached with proper timing & midair jump control).
2:21 Fair in midair is overrated, use the nair here. The victim can basically choose between ASDIing in and out the first and second hit to get the different knockback angles on the third.
Exceptions (good fairs) are if nothing else reaches and you reach with the tip of it, as mixup before landing because the first and second hit without the third set up for combos (use it if they expect tomahawks). Anti-approach SHFFL fairs (normally with backward horizontal movement) can be pretty strong because they have quite a bit of range and cover more approach timings than d-smash/d-tilt which is very important against an opponent figuring out they have to mixup their approach timing.
3:08 Nair OoS as crossup or as fadeaway would be better in ~80% of cases than the spot dodge.
3:13 Probably you could have traded stocks with some weird shuttle loop or at least have recovered, but technical flops happen...
Congrats on winning the game and the set, I hope the critique helps a bit

 

[Master WGS]

So I'm a Melee Marth player, and I kept reading that a lot of Marth mains have switched to MK because he is similar but better or something. This intrigues me, and since I'm trying to avoid messing with my Melee muscle-memory by playing PM Marth, I'm thinking of picking him up if anything transfers over.

Is there any truth to this? I'd like to find another character to feel confident with (besides my current main Lucas). If so, what are good starting points for picking up MK?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

It isn't really about skill transfering, but MK just having some of the attributes most Marth players like. Sword, good grab, similar d-tilt etc... I would advice you to try out many characters before deciding with which one to stick

 

[Master WGS]

Ah, makes sense.

Well, I'll mess with him a bit then and poke my head in here if he piques my interest. He looks fun in videos, anyway.

 

[GuruKid]

Any other MK's showing up to Zenith? I actually wanna meet and play you guys. Being in NY can feel pretty lonely when it comes to having fellow MK players around.

 

[Lawn Chair]

Any other MK's showing up to Zenith? I actually wanna meet and play you guys. Being in NY can feel pretty lonely when it comes to having fellow MK players around.

I can't make it ((((((((((((((((

 

[9bit]

Random question undeserving of its own thread: do you count your jumps or just "feel" it?

MK is the first multi-jump character I've attempted to play seriously and I've been trying to just feel the jumps, but I don't think it's working out for the best some of the time. Particularly if I need to Tornado recover, it's so crucial to ride the momentum of your final jump. I think I should start hard counting every time I use my aerial jumps.

Just looking for thoughts on that, I guess.

 

[GuruKid]

I think I just "feel" it now but when I first started playing a multi-jump character (Jiggs in melee) I initially had the same issue of having to adjust to multiple jumps and would have to hard count each jump (otherwise I'd SD... as jiggs haha). You'll be more in tune with the character's jumps as you keep playing; one of those "muscle memory" aspects of the game you have to develop. It just takes time and practice.

 

[Rᴏb]

With the recent news of recoveries getting rebalanced across the board, I'm led to believe this includes MK's. I don't think his recovery is too good in 3.0, but it could end up being vastly superior to most character's recoveries in 3.5 if it is left as-is. Since you guys are the most knowledgable about the character, what do you think an appropriate rebalance of his recovery might be? Or if you think his recovery won't change, feel free to explain why.
I've always thought that MK was one of the better designed brawl characters in PM, so I'm at my wit's end trying to think of a reasonable change. Maybe make his glide less flexible?

 

[sneakytako]

They should take out his glide attack (only allow him to cancel his glide) and give us back 3 frame invincible grounded SL.

 

[9bit]

I'd be OK with them removing the glide attack and making the glide less "flexible" (if that means you can't change the angle as quickly -- like Charizard's glide) if they have to nerf something.

Other than that, I don't know. Make side-B and Tornado go a shorter horizontal distance?

 

[Lawn Chair]

I'd be OK with them removing the glide attack and making the glide less "flexible" (if that means you can't change the angle as quickly -- like Charizard's glide) if they have to nerf something.

Other than that, I don't know. Make side-B and Tornado go a shorter horizontal distance?

I'm pretty confident that noting is happening to MK

 

[Croi]

I had the chance to play a beta build of the next version, and the only change to his recovery is that every character that can glide has a timer on it: about three or four seconds after MK begins his glide, he will automatically go into helpless.

This applies to every character that can glide, so now nobody's flying underneath FD anymore. Another big change, also to MK's glide, is that if he's hit out of his glide at any time and he tries to glide again, he simply won't. Shuttle Loop will immediately go into helpless, no drifting at all.

Of course, there's no guarantee that these changes will stay. It was a beta build, after all. But if they do, that's how they will nerf MK's recovery. Nado, Drill Rush, and DC were all unchanged.

 

[sneakytako]

So I played Kels this weekend, got wrecked. At least I got it to last stock my 2nd game q.q.

I still feel the MK:Fox MU is even, he just out played the **** out of me lol. When I asked him what his thoughts on the MU were, he told me he thought MK wins the MU.

 

[EclipseKirby]

I had the chance to play a beta build of the next version, and the only change to his recovery is that every character that can glide has a timer on it: about three or four seconds after MK begins his glide, he will automatically go into helpless.

This applies to every character that can glide, so now nobody's flying underneath FD anymore. Another big change, also to MK's glide, is that if he's hit out of his glide at any time and he tries to glide again, he simply won't. Shuttle Loop will immediately go into helpless, no drifting at all.

Of course, there's no guarantee that these changes will stay. It was a beta build, after all. But if they do, that's how they will nerf MK's recovery. Nado, Drill Rush, and DC were all unchanged.

I was just thinking not too long ago about what changes made the most sense for improving edgeguards against him while maintaining his onstage game. My thoughts were similar to these, and honestly, barring potential change to the glide time since 3-4 seconds is a lot of time, it makes the most sense.

 

[GuruKid]

The MK-Fox matchup could very well be even, maybe; the neutral game is pretty tricky for both characters. My experience against Fox I've gotten by with players not knowing how to DI MK's throws or CC'ing most of his attacks so that's helped me a lot against the character in tournament but I'd be really scared of a Fox who knows the matchup well.

Defensive Falcos make me a sad Meta Knight though. That's really tough.

 

[Lawn Chair]

The MK-Fox matchup could very well be even, maybe; the neutral game is pretty tricky for both characters. My experience against Fox I've gotten by with players not knowing how to DI MK's throws or CC'ing most of his attacks so that's helped me a lot against the character in tournament but I'd be really scared of a Fox who knows the matchup well.

Defensive Falcos make me a sad Meta Knight though. That's really tough.

Guru is right, Fox and MK is even and defensive Falcos are spooky

 

[Ahenobarbus]

Hey guys, new MK here. Just went to my second tournament (Events2Compete monthly in Chicago area) and somehow got top 8, 2-0ing my entire pool. Anyways, I'm really excited to talk about MK's potential. So many mixups. I started playing MK because I was playing Marth too aggressively, so I decided to change my character instead of my style and it's working out really well.

So I'll start with a question: what's your favorite MK mixup(s), and what kind of conditioning goes into it?

Mine: out of bthrow offstage (or anything that gets them offstage) I run to the very edge of the stage, dash cancel, then dash back, dash cancel, pivot fsmash. My main use for the mixup was when people (Samus and Mewtwo) were hitting me with combo breaking moves because I still don't firmly know what links for real. So it fools them into DIing back onto stage and throwing out a hitbox and then eating a fsmash. You can also just run to the edge and wavedash back to do it faster, but I found that the opponent generally reacts better to a dash into wavedash back than to dash into dashcancel (this is the moment they see that DIing in will be good). Then you run away and smack them with your sword, thereafter calmly explaining to them that they have much left to learn, or that victory is, after all, your destiny.

Though for all I know, that could be totally fraudulent.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

So I'll start with a question: what's your favorite MK mixup(s), and what kind of conditioning goes into it?

Mine: out of bthrow offstage (or anything that gets them offstage) I run to the very edge of the stage, dash cancel, then dash back, dash cancel, pivot fsmash. My main use for the mixup was when people (Samus and Mewtwo) were hitting me with combo breaking moves because I still don't firmly know what links for real. So it fools them into DIing back onto stage and throwing out a hitbox and then eating a fsmash. You can also just run to the edge and wavedash back to do it faster, but I found that the opponent generally reacts better to a dash into wavedash back than to dash into dashcancel (this is the moment they see that DIing in will be good). Then you run away and smack them with your sword, thereafter calmly explaining to them that they have much left to learn, or that victory is, after all, your destiny.

Though for all I know, that could be totally fraudulent.

Here is just a few of the mix ups I like:
Nair > full hop falling aerial
What this is for is to punish the following options
late reaction on cc and if they try to jump out of shield
gives you free combos
nair> tomahawk
if you wanna punish like cc or OoS options with a grab or dtilt this works well
I like to mix up my throws because they have free down b mix ups when you condition them right

 

[sneakytako]

Hey guys, new MK here. Just went to my second tournament (Events2Compete monthly in Chicago area) and somehow got top 8, 2-0ing my entire pool. Anyways, I'm really excited to talk about MK's potential. So many mixups. I started playing MK because I was playing Marth too aggressively, so I decided to change my character instead of my style and it's working out really well.

So I'll start with a question: what's your favorite MK mixup(s), and what kind of conditioning goes into it?

Mine: out of bthrow offstage (or anything that gets them offstage) I run to the very edge of the stage, dash cancel, then dash back, dash cancel, pivot fsmash. My main use for the mixup was when people (Samus and Mewtwo) were hitting me with combo breaking moves because I still don't firmly know what links for real. So it fools them into DIing back onto stage and throwing out a hitbox and then eating a fsmash. You can also just run to the edge and wavedash back to do it faster, but I found that the opponent generally reacts better to a dash into wavedash back than to dash into dashcancel (this is the moment they see that DIing in will be good). Then you run away and smack them with your sword, thereafter calmly explaining to them that they have much left to learn, or that victory is, after all, your destiny.

Though for all I know, that could be totally fraudulent.

Good job, MK needs more rep.

Who did you beat/lose to? Also results thread?