Gliding over tall buildings in a single shuttle loop: The Meta Knight Social

[Chesstiger2612]

Oops I do have to correct me because ledge invincibility seems to be one frame less in Melee, wouldn't really change anything though.

Empty cape has invincibility itself between frame 23 and 31 (last frame before reappearing animation) so you would need to use this cape invincibility directly after ledge invincibility. Ledge jump has a 15 frame animation. You can ledgejump from frame 4(?) on (plz correct only own dubious tests because I found it nowhere). So there is no method to keep cape invincibility, you will at least vulnerable these 5(?) frames. On some stages you are able to reach the platform invulnerable but you will have a long vulnerable phase after that I don't really think it is worth. Maybe except for Yoshi's Island side platforms and maybe Randall because there you platform drop jump and there is no 15 frames animation so you can keep invincible until reappearance.

 

[dettadeus]

not ledge jump like pressing jump from the edge, i mean the ledgedrop and immediate double jump used for ledgedashing

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

A week er two ago, I read auto cancel bair was postitve 4 or 5 on sheild. Can you do anything good after that?

 

[dettadeus]

A week er two ago, I read auto cancel bair was postitve 4 or 5 on sheild. Can you do anything good after that?

i mean... positive 4 on shield means you could probably grab before a shine OoS could even come out, or if they were perfect you might end up grab armoring the shine instead of straight up beating it

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Hinichii.ez.™
Bair is +1 on shield, the autocancel window is far outside the active frames. Still +1 is kind of nice for crossup pressure, allowing grabs or f-tilt.

@ dettadeus
In this case it is possible, you have to cape on frame 6 after you dropped if you want full invincibility though which makes it really hard to gain height. On low platforms it is possible with full invincibility, otherwise you would have vulnerable frames or reappear somewhere else. The correct input order would be:
Frame 1: Grab ledge
Frame 9: Drop from ledge
Frame 10: Jump
Frame 15: Cape
Unfortunately, MK isn't able to bring a second jump out in time which is required for most platforms. Still you have invincible startup and can react to your opponent by either holding b or letting go.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

So, can you pretty much down B any time you could go for an up B? And how do you know when you can get a down B off an uair? I don't know where the good Di and bad Di is for an uair(I know people can SDi and end up under you, but I'm just talking about Di right now.)

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Down-b has a different hitbox and will hit in less situations. Up-b is frame 8, while the earliest cape is frame 7 (you need to c-stick cancel on the next frame after you press b), mostly it is useful though to wait one or two frames longer because then you have more distance covered and if you hit a shield you will get punished anyways. In some situations it makes sense though to c-stick immediately.

If they are diagonally above you, up-B will hit very likely while cape won't. If they don't have any vertical distance you can get a cape.

 

[Espi]

Do you guys Down-B tech chase? I'm thinking of implementing it into my game, but not sure? It seems punishable, even if you use the C-stick to shorten it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Only if the opponent is at kill %s, in this case after up-air, up-throw on bad DI and in knockdown situations. Be aware you can run cancel into it which makes it really fast

 

[Tero.]

Do most people like the new down air more than the old one?

 

[dettadeus]

i personally hate it but i could see why they wouldn't want his old one; if i had brawl's dair any time i went to gimp someone in the past it would've taken 1 hit and no risk rather than like 3 hits and almost dying

 

[sneakytako]

So I played DP's Falco again this weekend. I played him in two sets (one in pools, one in bracket) and I got a lot closer this time lol.

I got a game against him, but I used wario and cheesed him. With MK I could bring him down to his last stock but every game he had control over me 90% of the time, and I felt like I needed to squeeze every little bit of the 10% of the time I had him on the run as much as possible.

A big thing I felt in the MU is never staying on the same level as him in neutral. For example on PS2 I would camp the platforms if he was spamming lasers and force him to full hop laser. Once he did that I would get under the lasers and try to dash dance and space if he decided to try to approach with SH dair. I still feel this MU is heavily in falco's favor, but I've got new hope for this MU. I have a question for all of you, how do we get back on the stage from the ledge? He had an answer for just about everything I threw at him.

I also lost to a Mario, since when did Mario dair beat our nair q.q.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Shield drop uair is love
Sheild drop uair is life

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Wow why did I always do f-tilt 1 -> f-tilt 2 -> f-tilt 3, f-tilt -> d-tilt/grab at lower %s and -> d-smash/cape is so much better.

Also fj nair on shield with dash jump forward momentum is great if you have a platform near because you can do that landing detection trick and cross them up with a falling nair -> grab/f-tilt afterwards.

Has anyone else tried capeporting (using ledgecancelled down-b on a platform for movement because if executed perfectly it is faster than your dash speed or your air speed) it is so cool <3

 

[GuruKid]

Do you guys Down-B tech chase? I'm thinking of implementing it into my game, but not sure? It seems punishable, even if you use the C-stick to shorten it.

It's a high-risk, high-reward kind of move; you should definitely implement it and work on landing cape hits off of not only techchases but even the more simple reads (exploiting an opening in neutral, punishing a sloppy approach, etc). Just be very much aware of the massive punishment you'll likely suffer if you read your opponent incorrectly.

I also lost to a Mario, since when did Mario dair beat our nair q.q.

Mario's Dair is verrrry disjointed for a limb aerial and generally shouldn't be challenged head-on from below if in the air (even our uair requires a good deal of precision against his dair if you approach from below and in front of him). Utilt works nicely but of course there's a whole "ground" requirement... and when you're against patient a Mario who zones heavily with fireballs you'll hardly see the ground much. You're better off just sticking to the standard MK bait-and-punish game... and do so either from above or from the sides.

Speaking of Mario, I'm finding cape bouncing to be a solid tool in maneuvering around his and other characters' projectile zoning on platform stages. It by no means overturns MK's weakness to projectile pressure but its teleport features (while still nowhere near on par with Zelda's or Mewtwo's) seem to speed up MK's platform movement a good deal. If you're really slick with it you can pop in an out between projectiles and get that much closer to the zoning opponent (or even create distance for some breathing room).Orrrr you can simply use it off a platform to regain your jumps and keep you hovering in the air for a longer duration waiting for an opening (when cape bouncing properly the invisible portion is lengthened a bit so there's a good window to touch the ground without being hit by a grounded projectile or attack). Great to use when you're on your last jump and the opponent or projectile is below waiting to punish you. I'm still learning the intricacies behind it but cape bouncing feels pretty useful considering our inability to clank, and it's definitely helped me win more often against Gallo's Mario.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Hey MK mains.

I'm wondering, what is the generally agreed upon best version of MK? Did he have anything notable in previous versions (i.e. like Charizard's 2.5 infinite glide) that has since been taken out? I'm making a custom version of P:M with the best versions of all characters in it. Thanks again!

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hey MK mains.

I'm wondering, what is the generally agreed upon best version of MK? Did he have anything notable in previous versions (i.e. like Charizard's 2.5 infinite glide) that has since been taken out? I'm making a custom version of P:M with the best versions of all characters in it. Thanks again!

Umm MK wasn't changed in 3.0... and was released in 2.6...

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Ok, got it. Thanks!

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What do you guys think of the sheik MU? I body bag'd one today, but yea, I'm just curious.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Around even imo. Sheiks combo game is nasty against MK because he doesn't het knocked down as much as Fox or Falco which would only lead to techchases instead of true combos but he isn't floaty enough to get out either. MK has great recovery though and his d-throw techchase also hurts. Comes down a bit to how effective Sheik uses needles, they can stop approaches, lead to followups/techchases, make recovery harder, bait/scare into something. If Sheik doesn't use needles well, probably MK will grab Sheik with a boost grab after a little movement exchange in neutral game and techchase away half the stock. Sheiks recovery is double-edged against MK, not that much distance but can recover rather unpredictable and low which is great because MK can barely cover the zone under him when up-b has invincibility and ledge invincibility doesn't last forever.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Two questions.

How does uair to dair work? Like, what part of uair do I need to hit, about what range in % can I do it etc.

What should I do when pit dtilts me?

 

[GuruKid]

Because Dair can be escaped rather easily with good SDI you don't want to rely on Uair -> Dair too much if at all unless:

A) you're close to the ground or platform (to give the opponent less time to SDI out)
B) You start the Dair above your opponent (hitting him with the tip of the sword as MK is coming down)

It's less so about what part of Uair to hit and more about your positioning when Dairing: If you're going straight down be directly above your opponent; if you're gonna angle it position yourself above and behind your opponent to minimize their window of escape.

As far as percents go, I usually only do it at low percents because at higher percents you're usually better off finishing with Cape (instant, partial or full depending on character and position)... it takes practice but even if you don't outright KO them they'll likely be sent offstage for an edgeguard opportunity.

Cape is just amazing.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

1.
See GuruKid's answer (Greninja'd xD)

2.
Rely more on your dashdancing game, it has much endlag for that range so boost grab them afterwards

Btw @ GuruKid Do you use Cape to escape projectiles to show some of your style or because you think it is the best option? I mean, I have no problem with it because MK has multiple ways of escaping those which all kind of reset to neutral but it looks like you choose the flashiest of those options on purpose xD

 

[GuruKid]

It's a mixture of both. I treat our small locals like practice sessions towards our major events so I've been using the most recent weeklies to experiment with different tactics. Cape maneuvering (not just Cape Bouncing but overall movement and mixups using Cape) is one of those things I'm experimenting with.

I'll definitely admit to the flashiness bit and I do sometimes use lol but it's actually helped me really well with certain matchups I've struggled with previously. The Mario matchup for instance becomes significantly easier when using cape intelligently to both avoid fireballs and stay in the air where Mario can't force pressure. It wasn't recorded but I solidly beat Gallo in tournament this Sunday at Nebulous using this very tactic and he now agrees that the matchup is in MK's favor if the player is very patient and uses Cape well while striking away and banning the flat stages.

EDIT: A similar advantage applies toward the Zelda matchup too; I mess it up a few times during the set but this set of me vs Zhime's Zelda is also a good example of using Cape to make the matchup a little easier to handle, especially concerning Din's Fire.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I personally feel more comfortable with staying grounded in these situations but I might consider using it against for example Luigi who has great ground and bad air control

 

[GuruKid]

Don't get me wrong... MK has a great ground game of course but because of his inability to clank, many projectile and sword characters have a superior game over him. In Mario's case you have to respect his fireballs (Dash Attack sucks at negating fireballs and most projectiles) and because of their speed and travel path your ground game becomes very limited. This along with his great aerials and decent ground movement allows Mario to put a lot of pressure against MetaKnight.

At least against Gallo's Mario I'm finding that the best answer to this problem is to stay airborne where fireballs have much less presence (relieving tons of pressure alone) while reversing the pressure onto him through the threat of MK's equally impressive aerials and Cape. And with platforms present you can use cape smartly to make yourself faster than Mario in the air and play the waiting game looking for punish opportunities. You don't want flat stages like FD or Smashville because you lose mobility (also because you get chaingrabbed easily but that's the life of a fastfaller so whatevs).

We don't have a good Link player the NYC area but reflecting back on my loss against Wolf's (the player "Wolf") Link at SKTAR I think I would do much better now using the same strategy of maintaining a superior platform and air game to overcome our weakness to projectile characters.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I do not use dash attack if I'm on the ground, mainly trying to powershield / spot dodge (best against Pit's arrows but no one uses it) / ducking and running away. I guess for Mario it is quite a good way because powershielding isn't worth the risk, spot dodge is too slow and ducking doesn't really work while running away is something against slower options. Probably every projectiles should be seen different in this issue because they all behave quite differently.

It is also nice seeing you on the MK boards, I was doing >50% in the last month(s) and it is quite inspirational to hear different opinions on the same topic.

 

[GuruKid]

Yeah with Facebook being my main method of communication with smashers nowadays I've kinda strayed away from Smashboards but I'll try to frequent here more often and get more footage up as well.

 

[sneakytako]

We don't have a good Link player the NYC area but reflecting back on my loss against Wolf's (the player "Wolf") Link at SKTAR I think I would do much better now using the same strategy of maintaining a superior platform and air game to overcome our weakness to projectile characters.

I seriously think the only way to deal with link's boomerang is to run in and shield. The rock paper scissors after that isn't even very good, but that's really the only way to deal with boomerang. Trying to outspace link in the air is too risky, being on the ground and CCing his options after shielding boomerang has given me some mixed results.

 

[GuruKid]

I definitely need more matchup experience against the character to really see for myself but it was really difficult to close distance on a very defensive Link; merely shielding the boomerang has the boomerang go back to Link, and he's almost immediately free to throw it again once he catches it. I tried that against Wolf the first game but he would hardly commit to an approach afterward and instead stay back to rethrow boomerang and bombs whenever he got the chance along. And not being able to clank meant I had to immediately respect his boomerang as soon as I saw the startup animation...I was sorta "stuck" in neutral with hardly any positional advantage while he was racking up damage and keeping pressure. It was just really frustrating as it was difficult to close the gap against a campy Link like Wolf's from the ground (and I mean no offense by that; it was smart of him to play like that and I give him props). I also made the grave error of striking to FD first match, not knowing of Link's CG and followups from Dthrow.

Again I'm still not well-versed in the matchup but I had similar problems against Mario's zoning game as well (which I thiiiink I've overcome finally) so once I play a good Link again I'll try out different stuff.

 

[sneakytako]

I inch my way forward with shield, but yeah you can't just punish boomerang when it's hits ur shield.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Sometimes you can crouch under it (depending on angling + starting height) which gives you a huge frame advantage. When you need to inch forward slowly with your shield that is no problem either because you can't get punished if you are far enough away and if you get close you can punish a boomerang by a boost grab

 

[sneakytako]

I don't think it's necessary to try and force a punish after shielding boomerang. Even if the boomerang goes right back to link, he has a delay until he throw it again (if he tries he'll just do the throw animation with nothing thrown). The difficulty is dealing with the NEXT option he throws out, which is something along the lines of jab/zair/grab/run away. They generally run away until they have no more stage to run to, and it's difficult to have enough shield to shield boomerang x3 and tilt your shield up for zair, and be ready for CC in case it shield pokes.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah just make up space slowly and punish if you are in close combat

 

[sneakytako]

Against link you want a stage with low platforms so you can tech to avoid dair follow up after dthrow at mid-high percents.

Lylat is my CP of choice for that mu. The slants on the sides make it hard to punish his up-b recovery though.

Starters are tricky. It seems against common sense but I like a larger stage to space around his projectiles. I believe FoD and Yoshi's are terrible, BF/SV/PS2 are my preferred starters in the MU.

 

[dettadeus]

three people on my state's PR main Link, and MK is my first choice in the matchup (although the last time I beat one of them in tournament - #2 on our PR now - was by basically timing him out with ROB 3 games in a row). powershielding the boomerang isn't that hard with a full shield, and it's pretty easy to do while dashing in. the boomerang is sent back to him and he can't use it until it gets clanked or goes offscreen, so you take away one of his best spacing tools. it takes a lot of practice to do this consistently, but once you show your opponent that every boomerang they throw at you is actually your approach tool, they'll generally stop throwing it

 

[sneakytako]

Tell hatz he's free for me.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Are you guys using:
- Nair ledgecancel ledgegrab
- Up-air -> footstool
- Platform autoland nair
- Side-b intangibility refresh
- Capeporting (platform instant dimensional cape ledgecancel)
I've seen these not enough in practical play although there are great applications

 

[BPx]

using a lot of platform autoland nair. haven't implemented footstooling yet... what followups are guarenteed? i imagine dair works, maybe dcape too? what is the intangibility refresh? is that the autocancel off ledges like brawl?

also hi sneaky

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dair works best, if you are very low you can also techchase or nair, dair is usually best though.

The intangibility refresh consists of dropping from the ledge, instant side-b towards it and automatically regaining your intangibility frames as you grab it. If you look at the hitbox of the side-b you will see that it also works to cover diagonal upward recoveries, straight upward recoveries not though so you better use it carefully. Basically the alternative to the haxdash for the case you wanna edgeguard recoveries that would necessarily meet that side-b hitbox