Gliding over tall buildings in a single shuttle loop: The Meta Knight Social

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Is up throw to down b a thing against fast fallers? Got one er two of those off on a fox and it felt good, real, good..

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yes it is between like 75% and 110% on no DI and a few other angles too I assume

 

[sneakytako]

Down throw > down b > c stick is a thing when they get thrown off the stage at low percent against most of the cast.

Down throw >down b > long a attack works to cover tech roll away on most of the cast

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Yea, I saw some mk do that a while back. I don't really see it used much tho. I don't know why not, free DMG, sorta.

 

[dettadeus]

dthrow > instant dimensional cape kills most characters between 80 and 100, idk why people wouldn't use it

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I guess, there isn't enough MK videos out. It seems like a lot of people aren't fond of, "reading."

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The reason is probably that d-throw doesn't lead to anything at 80-100% if their DI is correctly, up-throw is the better choice.
Also if you do IDCape at low percents most don't like it because it doesn't combo more and in average you can get more percent with a well executed tech-chase.
Still, I would recommend d-throw -> IDCape if the opponent is close to the edge because there is more edgeguarding potential in it than in a f-tilt/regrab. D-smash is often still the prefered choice but if the opponent covers this option you should go for the down-b

Btw @ Lawn Chair Were any of your matches recorded? I am a big fan of your MK

 

[Lawn Chair]

K9 & Larry Lurr vs ORLY and Lawn Chair

 

[Lawn Chair]

I'll review over them later tonight, follow me! http://twitch.tv/lawn_chairnwo

 

[dettadeus]

The reason is probably that d-throw doesn't lead to anything at 80-100% if their DI is correctly, up-throw is the better choice.
Also if you do IDCape at low percents most don't like it because it doesn't combo more and in average you can get more percent with a well executed tech-chase.
Still, I would recommend d-throw -> IDCape if the opponent is close to the edge because there is more edgeguarding potential in it than in a f-tilt/regrab. D-smash is often still the prefered choice but if the opponent covers this option you should go for the down-b

um... it works at kill percents on virtually every character, almost regardless of DI. and if they DI so that you can't combo it, then they are probably in a techchase situation or offstage (fastfaller/midweight, DI down and away), or are a floaty DI'ing up and in to the point that shuttle loop or nair combos and kills. i don't think i've seen uthrow reliably combo into anything before, which is why i don't use it and believe it is still his worst throw overall.

i only watched the first game of the mk ditto, lawnchair (it's pretty late and i have class tomorrow, so i'll probably get back to these), but from what i could tell you seriously need to work on your techchasing game. you made very few followups on each grab, often opting for fsmash or downb reads when you could easily follow the tech options from dthrow and get more grabs. maybe it's not your playstyle or maybe you're just not that good at extended techchases (or maybe you did it more in the rest of the set or the DK game, neither of which i've watched yet), but mk's dthrow is extremely abusable and you should always get at least about 30% off a grab on most chars. in the ditto you should be able to fair/uair > nair followup on DI up/in and you can techchase forever on DI down/away. don't forget that ftilt is really dumb and great for getting grabs or covering tech options (dtilt also works, they have similar endlag and cover tech in place very well while allowing time to cover tech away and tech back with a dash/JC grab). dtilt sweetspot > grab is a combo at low percents on most chars (basically any non-lightweight) and the sourspot can typically force bad positioning for your opponent (the knockback from dthrow and sour dtilt combined should cover a huge chunk of stage and give you stage control).

typically when i techchase, i do dthrow, then check if the DI is up/in or down/away. up/in, some chars you can simply regrab, but on floaties you have to just hit them with an aerial or an instant DC. down/away is a techchase for most chars and a regrab for floaties; if it turns into a techchase then i either dash forward then crouch > dtilt or walk forward and ftilt. these options cover tech in place (as i mentioned before) and usually lead to another grab. if they do not tech, sweetspot dtilt will combo into grab and ftilt1 will reset, allowing for a grab. if they tech away or towards you, you have enough time to dash and JC grab them before they can act (as long as you react fast enough). then the process repeats.

mk falls kind of between floaty and non-floaty for the purposes of his own techchasing; DI in can't really be regrabbed and DI out generally turns into a techchase. but you should still always be getting at least 30%ish off any grab, not including pummels and advantageous stage positioning.

 

[9bit]

Does anyone else get the feeling, whenever they're watching MK tournament footage (specifically I'm talking about my experiences watching SKTAR stuff) that all MK's look kinda sloppy right now? I just get the feeling that MK can be SO MUCH more optimized than we're seeing right now, which is exciting to think.

I see a lot of awkward dash attacks, n-airs, and d-airs especially. This is mostly in the neutral game. It just seems like he's flailing around, not really sure of what to do.

Just drunken thoughts.

 

[Lawn Chair]

I'm so noice

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You will all see MK's real potential when I travel to the US

um... it works at kill percents on virtually every character, almost regardless of DI. and if they DI so that you can't combo it, then they are probably in a techchase situation or offstage (fastfaller/midweight, DI down and away), or are a floaty DI'ing up and in to the point that shuttle loop or nair combos and kills. i don't think i've seen uthrow reliably combo into anything before, which is why i don't use it and believe it is still his worst throw overall.

The thing about up-throw is that DI out can lead to c-stick DCape, DI in to up-b or back air in most cases and every other DI into easy followups. It is obvious MK's up-throw is slow enough for the opponent to always get the right DI which makes the percentage window a bit smaller but still it is a reliable throw. DI away -> techroll away leads to neutral game mostly after a d-throw at high percents. OK, you might have a slight positional advantage (centerstage or sth. similar) in many cases but d-throw isn't the best throw always, especially not at high percents. Why go for a slight advantage when you could go for a combo. I partially agree with the offstage part, in some cases f-throw can also be taken into consideration but if you are looking for an offstage followup d-throw is superior to u-throw, maybe best together with grab release against some characters

 

[dettadeus]

Conditioning your opponent into thinking you will basically always use Dthrow makes Fthrow and Bthrow super hard DI traps, which is one of the primary reasons I use it. Optimal DI for Dthrow is generally the worst possible DI for Bthrow, and optimal DI for Bthrow is the worst possible DI for Fthrow. If you condition your opponent into believing you will always Dthrow except near the edge (where dthrow would force an edgeguard situation), where you will use Bthrow to attempt to extend the techchase (with techchase DI on Bthrow - down/away - MK can still cover all options on most characters), then when you Fthrow at the edge that one time at kill percents, they will be DI'ing perfectly for a kill followup. Fthrow is impossible to DI on reaction, Bthrow is difficult to, and obviously Dthrow is very easy to. These three throws perfectly create a horrid DI trap if you condition your opponent well or cycle through the throws reasonably.

MK literally can cover all tech options completely on reaction and I do this consistently in tournament, with the system I outlined in my previous post. If they tech away, MK can dash/continue dashing (depending on if you walked for an ftilt or dashed for a crouch > dtilt) and regrab with ease. At high percents, if they DI away and tech away you can simply run the entire way and crouch > Dsmash or instant dimensional cape; no tech option truly resets to neutral against a MK player who can techchase properly.
I am not going for a "slight advantage", I'm going for a very much extended techchase that ends in death for my opponent. What I don't understand is why other MK players go for "guaranteed damage" when a techchase is several times more guaranteed damage if you can consistently react to what your opponent does. Meta Knight is faster than Melee Sheik, has a longer dash dance, has more range, has more reliable combos into grab, and has more dangerous DI traps when utilizing multiple throws. If Melee Sheik thrived off techchasing, how is it remotely possible that MK can't?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Conditioning your opponent into thinking you will basically always use Dthrow makes Fthrow and Bthrow super hard DI traps, which is one of the primary reasons I use it. Optimal DI for Dthrow is generally the worst possible DI for Bthrow, and optimal DI for Bthrow is the worst possible DI for Fthrow. If you condition your opponent into believing you will always Dthrow except near the edge (where dthrow would force an edgeguard situation), where you will use Bthrow to attempt to extend the techchase (with techchase DI on Bthrow - down/away - MK can still cover all options on most characters), then when you Fthrow at the edge that one time at kill percents, they will be DI'ing perfectly for a kill followup. Fthrow is impossible to DI on reaction, Bthrow is difficult to, and obviously Dthrow is very easy to. These three throws perfectly create a horrid DI trap if you condition your opponent well or cycle through the throws reasonably.

MK literally can cover all tech options completely on reaction and I do this consistently in tournament, with the system I outlined in my previous post. If they tech away, MK can dash/continue dashing (depending on if you walked for an ftilt or dashed for a crouch > dtilt) and regrab with ease. At high percents, if they DI away and tech away you can simply run the entire way and crouch > Dsmash or instant dimensional cape; no tech option truly resets to neutral against a MK player who can techchase properly.
I am not going for a "slight advantage", I'm going for a very much extended techchase that ends in death for my opponent. What I don't understand is why other MK players go for "guaranteed damage" when a techchase is several times more guaranteed damage if you can consistently react to what your opponent does. Meta Knight is faster than Melee Sheik, has a longer dash dance, has more range, has more reliable combos into grab, and has more dangerous DI traps when utilizing multiple throws. If Melee Sheik thrived off techchasing, how is it remotely possible that MK can't?

The DI trap part is true and actually the best option at percents where up-throw doesn't lead to anything.
I also agree with the part about techchasing, probably I misunderstood your first post in some way, all options can be covered on like 90% of the cast.

 

[Lawn Chair]

The DI trap part is true and actually the best option at percents where up-throw doesn't lead to anything.
I also agree with the part about techchasing, probably I misunderstood your first post in some way, all options can be covered on like 90% of the cast.

Lawn Chair + Chess vs Mewtwoking + Armada

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Mew2Prince**
Fixed

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Do you think MK will get nerfed/changed?
I could imagine there will be a slight nerf (although I don't hope so) because, I mean, there are many rumors about characters worse than MK getting nerfed and theey might prove true...
I don't think he will be ruined though

 

[Lawn Chair]

MK IS BALANCED CAN WE NOT HAVE GOOD CHARACTERS?!!?!?

 

[Lawn Chair]

FOX AND FALCO KILL HIM SO EARLY, HE IS SO ****ING LIGHT AND FALLS FAST. ****!

DOUBLE POST

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I agree he is balanced but others whine about characters that are also balanced... Either way lets just switch the topic again ^^

 

[Lawn Chair]

PEOPLE WHO SAY MK IS BROKEN ARE KIDS WHO ONLY PLAY MELEE. Or people who don't make en effort to learn the game, just likes to complain, They don't know unbalanced cause they only play 4 characters out of the entire cast

 

[sneakytako]

There's a couple of things I wouldn't mind getting nerfed on MK.

I think bair recovers a little too quickly on the ground, it's a strong aerial with a lot of shield stun/push, it doesn't need to recover that fast. It's even on shield when l-canceled, +4 on shield when auto canceled.

 

[Lawn Chair]

There's a couple of things I wouldn't mind getting nerfed on MK.

I think bair recovers a little too quickly on the ground, it's a strong aerial with a lot of shield stun/push, it doesn't need to recover that fast. It's even on shield when l-canceled, +4 on shield when auto canceled.

A lot of characters have + frames on shield but MK can't do anything with it all he can do is crossup or run away.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I have a question movementwise. It is obvious that you need the dash-crouch-dance to play out all of MKs potential, mainly because of his bad WD and short initial dash. Do you think buffering attack while in special landing animation after a wavedash is better to set it up or is better to do it manual. You normally lose a few frames with doing it manual while you need to WD first when you are not.

Alternatively, keeping the button pressed after SHFFL'd aerials might be also an option or clicking while in some kind of lag... It is no big deal to quickly let the button go and click again in the case you want to attack instead of using the DCD.

Also I thought a bit about nair on shield and what you can do to make it safe, mainly MK's neutral game approaches etc.
One way is the fadeaway nair:
Dash in, jump, hold back in jumpsquat frames, stick in neutral position and nair, hold back again.
You need to make your jump later but you can space it really well and the opponent will probably still be in shield afterwards (best option is probably WD OoS away) and you can
- charge f-smash on shield
- run in and repeat
- go for a grab
I find this way of nairing more useful if a character has problems to punish spaced shieldpressure, for example a short grab range which would mean you needn't go back that much and have still more offensive options. Basically, go back only as much as you need to not get punished.

Another option is full jump nair:
Dash in, full jump, nair ASAP
Now you can't get punished because you are above the opponent. Many MKs tend to like this position so this might be something for them. You could land with another aerial (don't dair recklessly) or airstall a bit baiting them into something. You could also try to footstool->dair (up-smashes OoS are scary though). This is only efficient against characters with bad anti-air /anti-air OoS

Crossup nair:
Dash jump, nair as you are at their shield, land on the other side.
Better against characters with bad bairs, thats their only punish mostly. You can follow their limited options from here on and have quick moves like f-tilt available.

MK has a few options to make his aerials safe, but its not that easy. You can't just SHFFL moves, for the most part of approaching you need to work your way in for a grab.

If they go agressive against you, what helped me a lot was to only shield if really necessary. With bad wavedashs OoS, MK has never really safe escapes and mostly has to go for gamble-type options. You can punish:
- Close pressure (with nair OoS and shieldgrab)
- Slow but spaced pressure (C-forward cape OoS)
- Some diagonal angles where they would be safe against most characters (with up-B OoS)
Note you are not wellequipped in the following situations:
- Pressure which isn't really slow and slightly out of shieldgrab range (for example a retreat dair on shield by Falco, this type is,nt that rare actually)
- Crossup pressure because MK's bair is really slow and most characters have some kind of crossup pressure faster than it
That makes the situation somewhat more complicated and results that you need to rely on other options to avoid using shield.
- Continue DDing / DCDing: Do this if possible! MK has often an easy escape that no one recognizes because his dash speed is really high. Also in the initial dash you can pivot f-tilt/d-smash which can get their approaches they don't really have a chance to react to your quick dash, they would need to do it on read. You can also RAR fair as great anti-approach.
- If this isn't possible anymore, you probably already did something wrong. If they are already putting out a laggy move or at least you think so, rolling is actually an option. People always talk about "Don't roll" but if you know when and how to do it it is at least not a no-go.
- The other option is they do put out a non-laggy attack so roll would be punished and you can't run away because you misspaced/the opponent read your aggressive movement: Now you have to judge if shielding would work, otherwise spot dodge is also an option followed up by shielding or a quick move like f-tilt. Here you need some kind of read and gamble because you are in a bad situation and you don't really have anything safe

Hmm just some thoughts about the neutral game people don't give it enough credit and only practice combos etc...

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Do you guys ever use single hit fair?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

When I am secured to hit, sometimes, not in neutral. You have so many different good options.

Also, I did more testing on the d-throw techchase and so far I haven't even seen one other MK doing it correctly. You all seem to wait for the tech and then mess up because of reaction time or something when you could use your boost grab (sooo much range to grab them). And I've seen no one doing boost pivot grab to continue the chaingrab at the sides (OK it might be a bit technical but no johns).

 

[dettadeus]

you don't see other MKs doing it correctly because i either don't play MK in singles on stream or the vids don't get uploaded lol. my flowchart works but i've also been honing it since the first day i got to try 2.6 (like super early august last year)

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I wasn't too good with it until I tested a bit what you can do with the boost grab. It seems if you cancel dash attack to grab on frame 2 or 3 (on 2 seems to be slightly better), the distance is huuuge, same with pivot boost grab which I now prefer if I am at a corner.
With MK there is often the situation you want to continue the techchase but the opponent gets thrown offstage and has an easy time going to the ledge (if he is at low percents) after a throw...

Hmm I feel I have it down mostly but as d-throw expert, what do you prefer against
-DI up + platform tech (floaties mostly)?
-DI up + in by anyone at low %s
-DI down away and no-tech on purpose
-DI up+away from mid %s on (average fallspeed and floaties)

Also are there times where you don't use d-throw. I was more of a d-throw purist at first, then converted a bit to up-throwing more until I realized DI narrows its combo window (now you have often like 20% window of guaranteed followups instead of a 40% window) because it is so slow you can DI on reaction, and now I have been d-throwing more again...

 

[dettadeus]

In order:
-Either Uair or Nair to punish the tech; easier on smaller platforms like PS2 but still possible on larger ones due to how wide the Uair hitbox is. Sometimes I also waveland to regrab.
-DI up and in at low percents is basically the freest regrab possible for most characters, even floaties at really low percents.
-DI for techchase and miss tech is a free ftilt1 reset or Dtilt sweetspot > Grab depending on the character.
-DI up away usually gives you an aerial, I usually do Uair > Nair or just Nair if I think Uair will send too far. Or at kill percents, you can usually manage instant dimensional cape.

I personally never use Uthrow, and Dthrow is my go-to throw 90% of the time. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, Fthrow and Bthrow are a terrifying DI trap once you have your opponent conditioned a certain way, and I occasionally use those at the edge (bthrow to extend a techchase, fthrow to get a kill/edgeguard situation - also note people will tech away the bthrow 90% of the time, just dash after the throw and keep running and you can regrab them).

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hmm OK thank you. On floaties I was experimenting a bit with diagonal dair followup do you think it makes sense?

Often people have time to jump out after the back-throw, but probably not if they are DIing for d-throw. I think d-throw should be used more in the guess gam though.

I was also wondering if one of the rotating hitboxes on nair sets up for a regrab, I landed a nair sometimes that felt like a semi-spike (could be fastfaller affecting it too though).

I think you should use up-throw, especially against fastfallers. I can see the point why up-throw often doesn't do more than up-throw but if you do it at high percents against fastfallers that should be a kill.

 

[dettadeus]

I mean the only fastfaller I use MK against is Falcon, for spacies I always go ROB.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Ah OK now it makes sense I guess you are better off techchasing Falcon into an edgeguard plus he is heavyweight it is easier on spacies, other MKs, Diddy and so on

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Posted my question in the wrong thread.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I saw a really good match from FS | Gurukid and want to share my thoughts about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFUy4f01V_E
Watch this it is quite good play.
1:48
This dair is a crossup and is safe and a really good option. Zhime did dash attack before so he can't defend against the crossup by WDing away and then shieldgrabbing. Characters with slow crossup OoS don't have the tools to punish it and now you have the opportunity to grab or punish a roll. In this case Gurukid shielded which he didn't need and otherwise he could have punished.
It works against Captain Falcon, Charizard, Mr. G&W, Ganon and Zelda well, others have quick enough aerials, mostly bair and nair so you need to shield and can't punish WD out effectively.
2:09
You see him dash-crouch-dancing which allows him to do an infinitely long dash dance even if slightly slower in theory. He uses it more throughout the set and also is quick with it.
2:13
Regrab would be just as well but in the end it worked out, so you can't complain.
2:19
Perfect up-b. Watch how he jumps instantly before to even extend that range. I guess it is obvious though if he uses tap jump ^^
Not the biggest fan of the next sequence, but down-b has some invincibility from the mid on almost until reappearance so it is an OK choice against Din's. I think though that you are better of just rushing in and spot dodging the Din on the way because Zelda kind of wants you to deal with Din's.
2:37
This time Zhime didn't limit his options as much so the dair is actually a mistake. The dash attack was earlier this time and Zhime could run out. One could say for every opportunity for a good dair there are ten opportunities for bad dairs.
2:49
That pressure by just staying above ones shield is also great against slow upward OoS charaters. For different characters there are different spacings you need to follow then. After Zhime did it play out correctly and waited in his shield Gurukid also decided correctly to bair because a bair is MK's best move on shield and he will at least not get punished for his attempt. Now he is in a closer range neutral game which is advantegous although he will have a little frame disadvantage.
2:53
Good roll. After so laggy moves (even fadeaway) and such a low shield a little pause always helps. It also worked out as a bait. Good roll again at 2:58 after a double fair. Double fair could have been SDIed and punished with Nayru's but in a practical sense it was a good decision.

In the entire next sequence Guru likes his cape too much and eats a few Dins etc.
3:34 was great again, ranged punish game. The difference too the bad Capes is the fact Zelda isn't able to shield right now because she is in the Din animation still. Also an important note for matchups including Falco, Link, Mario, Toon Link who often are too confident being covered by their projectile.
3:37 was a typical bad dair
3:42
Recovering with side-b after that situation would probably be better, but its always hard to tell before and Zhime played it out really well.
4:02
Again after the up-air he jumps immediately before the up-b, otherwise he would probably get a weaker hitbox.
4:18
A really good nair because it would also be unpunishable if he shieled because he full jumped and was already behind him. Good awareness.

Now the capes were more precise, and he uses some of the tricks again. I don't know if instead of the up-air->up-air->down-b up-air->nair would have been better because there is definitely some edgeguarding potential in it but Zhime is good in recovering with Din protection so I can agree with Gurukid's decision.
5:33
The baits by Zhime work against him, Cape 2 stronk
6:08
The down-b is great because it is so low so landing after it is really quick. Gurukid also fastfell (probably, not that easy to see) so it is quicker. Classical nair edgeguarding principle boosted up with a few reads leads to a big percentage lead afterwards.
6:20
Up-throw is a really good decision, there is no followup but landing is incredibly difficult for Zelda The worse the aerials for these situations are and the less the aerial horizontal momentum is, the bigger MK's advantage is. Other characters who can fall for this are Peach (float is good though), Snake, Olimar, Luigi, Samus, Ice Climbers, Yoshi and various others to a lesser extent. Finally he gets the up-b and wins

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

When you go for the perfect ledge dash, how many frames of invincibility do you have to work with? When I do it in regular speed, it's clear you have a good amount, but I'm not sure if I'm able to pull of a intangible dtilt/dsmash with it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

If you drop perfectly you have 30 frames of invincibility. From my tests a perfect waveland touches the stage at at frame 9 so you are left with 10 frames of special landing animation and have still 11 frames left:
F-tilt (3) and Dash attack (4) is easily doable.
D-smash (6), d-tilt (6), up-tilt (if you ever need it in that moment lol; 7), up-smash (8) affords some precision.
Nair (inner 7; outer 9), up-air (9), fair(10), Cape(7) and up-b(8) afford great precision

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If you drop perfectly you have 30 frames of invincibility. From my tests a perfect waveland touches the stage at at frame 9 so you are left with 10 frames of special landing animation and have still 11 frames left:
F-tilt (3) and Dash attack (4) is easily doable.
D-smash (6), d-tilt (6), up-tilt (if you ever need it in that moment lol; 7), up-smash (8) affords some precision.
Nair (inner 7; outer 9), up-air (9), fair(10), Cape(7) and up-b(8) afford great precision

Too strong

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I guess d-tilt and nair are most useful, but all of them have at least some application

 

[dettadeus]

is it possible to do an invincible ledge hop > dimensional cape (invincibility to cover the startup until you disappear) and use the grounding trick that gives all your jumps back? you'd have to get about as high over the edge as for a ledge dash i guess