Giving "Gimmicks" to older characters?

[Jotari]

So this is something that came up in the Zelda Light Arrows thread is the notion of giving gimmicks to older characters. A gimmick on a character is something that only really popped up in Brawl, but is now pretty frequent. Some of them are the entire basis of the moveset, like with Steve or Olimar, sometimes it's something quite minor, like Bayonetta's bats or Ryu's button inputs, and sometimes it's something inbetween, like Cloud's limit or Mac's KO punch. I think there's some vague feeling of distaste for newer characters being more gimmicky in design, but honestly I think pretty much all of them have been fine in this regard, usually they're either a creative moveset or just a little touch up that makes the character more interesting. It's mainly the more minor ones I'm considering here. For example, if Sephiroth somehow got into the game in Melee, I don't think he'd have his One Winged Angel form (let's ignore that the form literally didn't exist at that point and that Sephiroth never had any chance of getting into Melee). It just wasn't the kind of thing Melee designed on its characters. But I do like the One Winged Angel Form, it's one of those extra little things that makes him more interesting.

I feel like I've been meandering around the point here just talking about gimmicks in general, I think, because, I'm expecting people to not really like the idea of giving gimmicks to older characters, but let's just have fun for a moment thinking up ideas. What gimmicks could older characters get that would make them more interesting or take advantage of newer abilities that are conspicuously missing? The one idea I've come up with so far is for Zelda's smash attacks changing by charging up a set of three orbs like Cloud's limit. Maybe I'll think of some more later.

I will note that they actually have went back and added a gimmick to one older character. Specifically, in SSB4 they gave Bowser his Tough Guy Armour that let him shrug off weaker attacks without flinching (something I think Ganondorf should get too). So, while I'm not expecting something crazy like Pikachu evolving into Raichu mid battle or anything, giving minor gimmicks to older characters isn't something unprecedent.

EDIT: I've also remembered Link was given a Sword Beam on his forward Smash, but only when he's at 0%. So they've given minor gimmicks to two old characters.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'd much rather take away gimmicks from new characters - small stuff like Tough Guy is cool, especially if it's done in the interest of balance and not source accuracy, but not BS like giving Ganondorf the ability to travel through paintings or having Lucas time all his attacks to background music. Hero without crits and command selection or Steve with only one block and weapon material each would be pretty rad.

 

[Jotari]

I'd much rather take away gimmicks from new characters - small stuff like Tough Guy is cool, especially if it's done in the interest of balance and not source accuracy, but not BS like giving Ganondorf the ability to travel through paintings or having Lucas time all his attacks to background music. Hero without crits and command selection or Steve with only one block and weapon material each would be pretty rad.

Yeah, I don't think we'll see anything that completely redefines an old moveset. The closest thing to that would probably be changing Olimar from 6 pikmin to 3. And even that didn't so much as redefine his moveset as to eliminate rng and make it more tactical. Stuff like Tough Guy is more what I'm thinking, my suggestion for Zelda would be more on an extreme side (though that idea came from the other direction, wanting to give he light arrows more so than wanting to give her a gimmick).

Here's one that's in my mind for High Special Defense: Mewtwo takes reduced damage from Energy Based Projectiles. Some people complain about how light and floaty Mewtwo is in Smash and how that's ill fitting given his Pokedex weight. Not something that bothers me at all, as I like the idea of a large but low weight character in Smash (provided it's made up for in other areas), but seeing Mewtwo being able to shrug off some attacks would be cool. And energy based projectiles are situational enough that it becomes something small rather than a defining trait...though now that I've checked Mewtwo's stats, I see he actually has identical defense and special defense in Pokemon Guess my brain is still in Gen 1. Still it's a neat idea even if it doesn't have a whole lot of basis.

One that I know I'm going to get flak for is a gimmick I'd like brought back. Stamina: I think this would work better in modern Smash games compared to Brawl. Mainly because games are more up front with their gimmicks now. Stamina could be displayed with a meter, and that would make a massive difference, as there was no way to really notice stamina in Brawl without stopping and looking at your Pokemon's idle animation. Just knowing when you need to switch would really make a big difference. Now, obviously, that's not the only reason it was hated. As many people just want to play as Charizard or Squirtle and don't deserve to be penalized and shift to another character half way through the second stock. That is completely understandable. So this is a case where I'd want both to be implemented at the same time. Such as through a custom special. One version of swap Pokemon just treats them normally, while it's custom counter part implements stamina, with Pokemon dealing higher than standard damage when they're high on stamina. I just think there's something to be said for a mechanic that encourages actual transforming in a transforming character.

 

[FazDude]

Ganondorf the ability to travel through paintings

aw hell nah ganondorf in mario 64

In all seriousness, I don't mind more minor gimmicks like Tough Guy. The problem comes when being accurate to the source material adds baseless complexity to a character's kit or makes them flatout broken. For example, Sephiroth's winged form gives him an advantage, but there's no on-screen meter or complex inputs needed to use it; It just works. There's a difference between that and something like Hero's crits.

 

[Perkilator]

Something minor that I thought of for Link: give him the Ancient Bow & Arrow as a neutral special, where fully charging a shot uses up all your stamina, and you use the Traveler's Bow & Arrow while you're stamina recharges.

 

[Jotari]

Something minor that I thought of for Link: give him the Ancient Bow & Arrow as a neutral special, where fully charging a shot uses up all your stamina, and you use the Traveler's Bow & Arrow while you're stamina recharges.

I feel like anything less than a final smash is going to be underwhelming for the Ancient Arrows. Though, on the subject of Link, that is an old character they gave a minor gimmick to. He has a Sword Beam on his forward smash, but only if he's at 0%. I suppose you could extend the same mechanic to his spin attack and make it more powerful at 0% like in Twilight Princess, but ultimately that one is a gimmick there purely for the source material, as staying at 0% in Smash is very difficult (in fact, I had to look it up to even be sure that was a real mechanic and not something I imagined as it's so minor in practical terms).

 

[GolisoPower]

Honestly, if anybody should get new gimmicks, it's giving the Pokemon their Abilities. For example:

Jigglypuff: Cute Charm: Any fighter that attacks Jigglypuff up close makes all their attacks slower for a short time. It wouldn't stack and has a long cooldown. This is how you sort of replicate the "Infatuation" status from the series.

Lucario: Inner Focus: Interweaved with Aura. Lucario gains stronger and stronger armor in his attacks the more damage he has accrued. Has a maximum of around 15% damage.

Pokemon aside, I think Mario and Luigi should deal damage just by footstooling. Kind of an inverse of what Piranha Plant has.

 

[Jotari]

Pokemon aside, I think Mario and Luigi should deal damage just by footstooling. Kind of an inverse of what Piranha Plant has.

Oh yes, absolutely. It would be a minor, completely inconsequential thing, but it would serve well to put what is literally their most iconic trait into the game.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Jigglypuff: Cute Charm: Any fighter that attacks Jigglypuff up close makes all their attacks slower for a short time. It wouldn't stack and has a long cooldown. This is how you sort of replicate the "Infatuation" status from the series.

This would actively encourage Jigglypuff's foe to zone, which is not only annoying but also exactly how you win against Jigglypuff.

 

[Oracle Link]

The only Gimmick i have is the switch hook for either Gameboy or toon link (i mean he has a NEs and a Alttp/ gameboy alt)
Meaning if you Tether grab you and your Opponent switch sides!

 

[Quillion]

Put me on the list of people thinking Tough Guy armor is good. I still want it given to Ganondorf since Wind Waker shows he can shrug weak attacks too.

But I'll reiterate that I'd like to see a lot of the "meter"/comeback mechanics consolidated into a single universal super meter that can be incorporated into the old characters even then. It would add a sorely needed layer to Smash's core gameplay at this point.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd like to see game&watch somehow use that they are 2D

 

[Jotari]

The only Gimmick i have is the switch hook for either Gameboy or toon link (i mean he has a NEs and a Alttp/ gameboy alt)
Meaning if you Tether grab you and your Opponent switch sides!

That would be less an overall character gimmick and more a singular attack...and while an interesting one, not one I'm sure would have much practical use.

 

[Oracle Link]

That would be less an overall character gimmick and more a singular attack...and while an interesting one, not one I'm sure would have much practical use.

It would just be a neat liitle detail amongst some other Details i want to include for Younger links Moveset rehaul!
Its more or less just a neat little Thing!

 

[Quillion]

It would just be a neat liitle detail amongst some other Details i want to include for Younger links Moveset rehaul!
Its more or less just a neat little Thing!

I really think we should refrain from giving characters one off moves.

Would you want Bowser to have his boxing glove hat?

 

[Janx_uwu]

I really think we should refrain from giving characters one off moves.

Would you want Bowser to have his boxing glove hat?

Now that you mention it that would be a really good item.

 

[Oracle Link]

I really think we should refrain from giving characters one off moves.

Would you want Bowser to have his boxing glove hat?

But the Switch hook is basically a Version of the Grappling Hook!

 

[Quillion]

But the Switch hook is basically a Version of the Grappling Hook!

But the "switching" thing is mainly a puzzle solving mechanic rather than something that makes a good combat move.

 

[Arthur97]

It would definitely be interesting, but it might actually work more as an item. Plus, none of the Links in game have actually ever used it. Young Link has other ways to deviate him anyway. Truth be told, so does Toon Link, but he's already the more unique one.

 

[Jotari]

It would just be a neat liitle detail amongst some other Details i want to include for Younger links Moveset rehaul!
Its more or less just a neat little Thing!

A neat little thing, sure, but if you're going to include it as a grab, a special or even a tilt then you're taking away a grab, a special or a tilt in favour of an interesting looking, but largely useless move (and a rather obscure item from a single game in the franchise released over 20 years ago, though hopefully we'll get an Oracle remake soon). This is not the same as Mario's Footstool dealing damage, which takes nothing away from him to have a neat little thing.

It would definitely be interesting, but it might actually work more as an item. Plus, none of the Links in game have actually ever used it. Young Link has other ways to deviate him anyway. Truth be told, so does Toon Link, but he's already the more unique one.

I really wish they'd just called Toon Link Young Link back in Brawl. The name change gave rise to the idea that these were separate characters when they're really not. And now we've ended up with both of them and three Link's total because Ultimate wanted to say they brought all the characters back.

 

[Arthur97]

Eh, calling Toon Link Young Link seems weird. At the time, it was a logical decision to call him something more fitting. And, really, it's not that big of a deal having three of them. Especially with Young Link probably not being as labor intensive all things considered given how many cloned animations he has.

 

[Jotari]

Eh, calling Toon Link Young Link seems weird. At the time, it was a logical decision to call him something more fitting. And, really, it's not that big of a deal having three of them. Especially with Young Link probably not being as labor intensive all things considered given how many cloned animations he has.

This is getting a bit off topic to the main thread, so I'm not going to respond much further on the point, but why? Why was it a logical decision to rename the character at the time? Toon Link is still very much a younger version of Link. The name applies just as relevantly to both Majora's Mask Link and The Wind Waker Link. I think it feels weird to you because we've had the character as Toon Link for fifteen years now, but if he had been called Young Link in Brawl then you wouldn't have batted an eye. It would merely have been Ocarina of Time Link going to Twilight Princess Link and Majora's Mask Link going to Wind Waker Link. I don't think anyone would have questioned it at all.

 

[Arthur97]

Because the Young Link title has become fairly synonymous with the Hero of Time, and it works somewhat as a descriptor for him specifically as he was the younger version of the hero of time, or rather Link was the older version. Toon Link does not have a time skip. He's just another Link. He's far more notable for his art style anyway, and if you're going in with no intentions to ever bring Young Link back, why not change it to a more fitting title? You seem to be operating under the idea of them making Ultimate, and while the idea of doing something like that might have crossed their minds, it probably was not a major factor or consideration. Admittedly my first point is also tied to the present idea of the title being tied to that particular Link.

 

[Jotari]

Because the Young Link title has become fairly synonymous with the Hero of Time, and it works somewhat as a descriptor for him specifically as he was the younger version of the hero of time, or rather Link was the older version. Toon Link does not have a time skip. He's just another Link. He's far more notable for his art style anyway, and if you're going in with no intentions to ever bring Young Link back, why not change it to a more fitting title? You're operating under the idea of them making Ultimate, and while the idea of doing something like that might have crossed their minds, it probably was not a major factor or consideration. Admittedly my first point is also tied to the present idea of the title being tied to that particular Link.

No, I'm not operating under Ultimate logic, as I've had this opinion since 2008. Young Link becoming synonymous with the Hero of Time is something that only happened because Smash went and renamed the character (it wasn't even Link and Young Link in the Ocarina of Time manual, it was Child Link and Adult Link). If Toon Link in Brawl had been called Young Link, then Young Link would have been synonymous with what he actually is, a younger version of Link.

That's all I'll say on the matter here, but if you want to discuss the matter further we could make a dedicated thread.

 

[Oracle Link]

A neat little thing, sure, but if you're going to include it as a grab, a special or even a tilt then you're taking away a grab, a special or a tilt in favour of an interesting looking, but largely useless move (and a rather obscure item from a single game in the franchise released over 20 years ago, though hopefully we'll get an Oracle remake soon). This is not the same as Mario's Footstool dealing damage, which takes nothing away from him to have a neat little thing.

I really wish they'd just called Toon Link Young Link back in Brawl. The name change gave rise to the idea that these were separate characters when they're really not. And now we've ended up with both of them and three Link's total because Ultimate wanted to say they brought all the characters back.

Quillion PLS Read too!
Its basically a Side Switching Grab so i wouldnt call it useless!
After all its not like it would work exactly like in Ages its just a normal Tether Grab that switches Sides After which you can still pummel and Throw!
Its more of a Nice Visual change and less of it just swapping you and the Opponent which i agree is useless!
I might Visualize it!

 

[Quillion]

Quillion PLS Read too!
Its basically a Side Switching Grab so i wouldnt call it useless!
After all its not like it would work exactly like in Ages its just a normal Tether Grab that switches Sides After which you can still pummel and Throw!
Its more of a Nice Visual change and less of it just swapping you and the Opponent which i agree is useless!
I might Visualize it!

Maybe if we get "Classic Link" as another Link character, there could be a back throw where the hook/clawshot swaps the two around and Link immediately turns around and slashes the opponent.

Still, it would be as silly as a move where Link summons a statue with the Dominion Rod.

 

[Jotari]

Quillion PLS Read too!
Its basically a Side Switching Grab so i wouldnt call it useless!
After all its not like it would work exactly like in Ages its just a normal Tether Grab that switches Sides After which you can still pummel and Throw!
Its more of a Nice Visual change and less of it just swapping you and the Opponent which i agree is useless!
I might Visualize it!

It's still ultimately not super representative, useful or functional (seems like it would be more disorientating for the player than the opponent, since they're trapped in a grab one way or another). But more than that, it's not really ontpic, as you're talking about the way a single move functions, while this thread is about gimmicks. Ie, stuff like Tough Fighter, One Winged Angel, KO Punch, whatever black sourcery created Kazuya's moveset etc.

 

[Aligo]

Pretty sure these would count as passive traits so Different sheild designs.
Steve should have a rectangular sheild because it would be funny.
Link ought to have daruks protection, with added daruk noises upon a successful parry just like in BOTW.
Pyra and Mythra can use the blade sheilds from XC2, maybe with perfect sheilds instead of parries to replicate their functionality in the game. Or even have them be 270 rather than 360 and have them be rotated to be used effectively.
Those were the ones I could think of, but there is definitely the potential for more.

 

[Jotari]

Sonic seems to be maligned in Smash due to the way he's encouraged to be a hit and run spammer. This is an unfortunate side effect of min maxing his speed. He needs to be the fastest character in the game, but if you make him so super fast, then you can't have him super powerful. So naturally the playstyle a Sonic player is going to gravitate is getting in hits and then running away to make use of his speed.

So my idea for a gimmick for Sonic is called a momentum meter. When Sonic is moving this meter increases, when Sonic is not moving, the meter decreases. The higher the meter is, the more damage Sonic does. Essentially, this encourages Sonic players to stay moving and stay on the offensive, as the meter doesn't decrease when chaining attacks. I don't know if there's any feature like this in any Sonic games, but it does mimic how Sonic games actually play. Keeping up momentum for clearing levels fast is important, and if you get interrupted it's hard to get back into the groove.

 

[Perkilator]

So my idea for a gimmick for Sonic is called a momentum meter. When Sonic is moving this meter increases, when Sonic is not moving, the meter decreases. The higher the meter is, the more damage Sonic does. Essentially, this encourages Sonic players to stay moving and stay on the offensive, as the meter doesn't decrease when chaining attacks. I don't know if there's any feature like this in any Sonic games, but it does mimic how Sonic games actually play. Keeping up momentum for clearing levels fast is important, and if you get interrupted it's hard to get back into the groove.

I once saw a piece of art on Twitter with a similar idea, but I don't remember who drew it.

 

[Arthur97]

Do you really need a meter to show momentum? It's not like he's usually equipped with speedometer. Also, how does this discourage hit and run? If anything it seems like it'd make it stronger. In addition, with the way Smash works, most grounded moves tend to really hurt momentum so are you planning for his ground moves to just...be bad?

 

[Jotari]

Do you really need a meter to show momentum? It's not like he's usually equipped with speedometer. Also, how does this discourage hit and run? If anything it seems like it'd make it stronger. In addition, with the way Smash works, most grounded moves tend to really hurt momentum so are you planning for his ground moves to just...be bad?

It's not literal momentum. Hence why there's a meter. If it was literal momentum then his attacks would need to go through the enemy and he'd keep going, which of course would encourage hit and run tactics. The idea is that it encourages Sonic to keep doing something, keep moving, keep attacking; taking the waiting out of a hit and run strategy and make it more risky. Maybe it's not an opportune moment to attack, but you need to risk it anyway so as to not lose your momentum.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, if he's getting a meter, it should be boost. Love it or hate it, it's an integral part of his history.

 

[FazDude]

I'm not really a fan of giving Sonic in particular a gimmick; Yes, his moveset could use some fine-tuning to be less campy, but I don't think a meter's the way to do it. I'd rather tweak Sonic's attacks attribute-wise to emphasize speed and an aggressive playstyle (make dash attack a KO option at higher percents while also being more punishable, for example).

 

[Arthur97]

I mean, you can do that, but either way, two spin dashes is a bit weird. Change charge's name to spin dash and remove the side special for something. Boost would be it's own move, gauge or not.

 

[FazDude]

I mean, you can do that, but either way, two spin dashes is a bit weird. Change charge's name to spin dash and remove the side special for something. Boost would be it's own move, gauge or not.

I'd personally make Side Special the Light Speed Dash from the Adventure games.

 

[Arthur97]

That works too, but it's also likely similar to Pac Man's side special, and then it doesn't really reference his modern games. If you made it boost, you got Classic (Spin Dash), Adventure/3D in general (Homing Attack), and Modern (Boost).

 

[Jotari]

Well, if he's getting a meter, it should be boost. Love it or hate it, it's an integral part of his history.

Can you give a bit more detail as to what you actually mean by boost?

 

[Arthur97]

Can you give a bit more detail as to what you actually mean by boost?

Er, in most modern Sonic games he has a boost meter that gives him a large burst of speed while also making him plow through enemies. It can be...devise, but it's been a fairly consistent mechanic. It's usually accompanied by a meter to denote how long he can boost. It can be filled by pick ups, rings, and defeating enemies. Would probably be similar to Wonder Wing in function, but faster and probably not as strong. He also does loose air if used in the air, so maybe not quite as good as a recovery but better than sinking like a rock with Spin Dash.

Edit: Ironically enough, I think the Wiileased method might be easiest to use. In that game it was a fairly unique in that you filled the gauge in increments, and each one could be activated for a set time of boosting rather than free use of the gauge.

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe piranha plant could have a ptooie timer? So the longer you wait, the more powerful it gets? It would make the move even better yet at the same time it would be used less? I dunno I just started playing plant.