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Getting Back to the Basics: Why are the Standard Rules 'Standard'?

Life

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One last word on Tic-Tac-Toe:
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Is there such a thing as a "low-depth" game, though? You either have a very deep game, or a solved one, no? Chess and Go are deep (for now) because we can't see all the options at once as it's too complex. Brawl and Melee are the same, but not only for the amount of options but also because they're in real-time, so even if they were "solved" to a certain extent it's nearly impossible to reach that solution under human conditions (remember that the solutions have a lot of forks, as you can see in the image above).

However, once you hit that "very deep" range, there's still variety. Brawl on FD only is still fairly deep. But Brawl with 21 different stages is much deeper, as the options change radically depending on what stages are present, both before and after the countdown.
 

Orion*

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One last word on Tic-Tac-Toe:
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Is there such a thing as a "low-depth" game, though? You either have a very deep game, or a solved one, no? Chess and Go are deep (for now) because we can't see all the options at once as it's too complex. Brawl and Melee are the same, but not only for the amount of options but also because they're in real-time, so even if they were "solved" to a certain extent it's nearly impossible to reach that solution under human conditions (remember that the solutions have a lot of forks, as you can see in the image above).

However, once you hit that "very deep" range, there's still variety. Brawl on FD only is still fairly deep. But Brawl with 21 different stages is much deeper, as the options change radically depending on what stages are present, both before and after the countdown.
I agree with everything except... I'm still not sure on the bolded part.

I don't feel like different options =/= more. I definitely feel like I have less options on CP stages... they are just different ones than normal lmao.
 

xDD-Master

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I agree so much with you :D
We should play next time we meet ^-^
Brawl without Items and less stages still has enough depth so that no human could ever predict all possible options and outcomes of a match.
There always is this mindgame/predict aspect, which will keep the game fresh.
 

Jack Kieser

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This thread's getting kind of flame-y / theoretical. It should probably stay as close to reality as possible. Remember: the questions posed weren't about how the community should act, but how it does act.

It should be noted, however, that there does seem to be a sort of psychological "schism" in how the community perceives the game and their individual relation to it. No polling has been done, but there does seem to be a general split among players between two competing philosophies: the concept of objective imperative (game control) and the theory of subjective mandate (player control).

The concept of objective imperative is rather simple: there is an imperative (or an "an unavoidable obligation or requirement") to treat the game and community as objectively (or in a manner "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice") as possible. True / perfect objectivity, just like true altruism, is unattainable, but this concept mandates attempting to come as close as possible to objective standards. This is the underlying philosophy behind Sirlin's seminal "play to win" philosophy, as it places high emphasis on the worth of the game over the worth of the player; the game is ascribed dominant importance and the players play the game almost by privilege. The integrity of the game, in whatever form, is of paramount importance in this philosophy, and so it makes sense that someone who has an objective imperative would view the rules of the game as granitic: able to change and evolve, but only given intense time and pressure.

Meanwhile, the philosophy of the subjective mandate is the more popular one, as it centralizes control in the hands of individual players. This philosophy states that the playerbase (and its wishes) are more important than the game itself, and so players have an inherent mandate (or "an authoritative command") to change the game in whatever subjective (or with "excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions") ways they wish. The calling card of this philosophy is the tenant that the playerbase is more important than the game itself. In essence, those who think in this manner feel that the actual game played is irrelevant; the only thing that matters is that players are playing something, and what they play is inconsequential, merely a means to the end that is competing. In light of this, these players feel it is justified in editing the game, its rules, and anything administrative to it in whatever way they feel is necessary to facilitate playerbase growth; more importantly, these players reject the notions that the game has inherent integrity (indeed, that competition at all has integrity) or that objectivity is necessary (or even preferable). This is a very individualistic philosophy of play that places emphasis on whichever player happens to be in charge at the time / the prevailing emotional state of the playerbase.

Smash, historically, has belonged to the former classification of player philosophies, but (as I noted earlier) has been steadily migrating to the latter ever since the Japanese release of Brawl; this is due, mainly, to the deterioration of the self-respect that the community used to possess and the corner-cutting of the previous ruleset creation processes. Brawlers decreasingly view themselves as "athletes" and view Brawl as "only a game" instead of a sport. It is important to note that countries like Korea, who have already elevated gaming to a national sport rivaling most physical competitions, view games largely through the lens of the objective imperative.

Smash used to view itself as very high-brow, even for a video game, due to Melee's large degree of technical skill and high barrier of entry. Brawl's reduction in necessary technical skill and lowering of the technical and strategic barriers of entry reduced, in many players eyes, the breed of the game and, thus, the breed of its competition. Brawl is, in no uncertain terms, respected less (as a competitive game) than Melee was (even taking into account respective playerbases), and so it is only natural that the community would shift philosophically to a state that reflects its lowered respect for the game itself (and thus for the level of competition it produces).
 

Life

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I agree with everything except... I'm still not sure on the bolded part.

I don't feel like different options =/= more. I definitely feel like I have less options on CP stages... they are just different ones than normal lmao.
It's more like, you have the same options on every stage, but their RESULTS are different depending not only on the stage, but where you are specifically on a given stage and what the stage is doing at the time.

Disclaimer: these examples probably suck.

For an in-stage example--you main MK, correct?--MK's dair is kinda meh in the middle of the stage, but one of the best moves in the game if you're going for a gimp. This logic applies pretty much everywhere.

For a multi-stage example, if you're standing in the center of FD and MK dairs/nairs you... okay? You just kinda take some damage and go to the side, maybe to the ledge if you're at a high percent. If you're in the center of Norfair? Good chance you're ending up on the ledge, or perhaps into some lava, depending. Center of Japes? Hope you react fast enough to jump over the croc, if it's there. Delfino? Could be practically any situation depending on the transformation (usually the ground though). See what I'm getting at?

Chaingrabs have totally different results depending on the stage, too. Ask ICs. Spikes, too, just ask anyone who's been spiked into lava/acid/water.

Each stage has different "situations" (semi-permeable and/or solid ground, static platforms, moving platforms, hazards, water, ledge, bottomless pit, slope, breakables, etc.) in different arrangements, meaning each successful attack puts your opponent somewhere totally different depending on where you are.
 

Orion*

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just to add a note...

Melee banned most stages now also. LMAO

edit: @ akuma we can definitely play ;)

see you next weekend???
 

Orion*

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It's more like, you have the same options on every stage, but their RESULTS are different depending not only on the stage, but where you are specifically on a given stage and what the stage is doing at the time.

Disclaimer: these examples probably suck.

For an in-stage example--you main MK, correct?--MK's dair is kinda meh in the middle of the stage, but one of the best moves in the game if you're going for a gimp. This logic applies pretty much everywhere.

For a multi-stage example, if you're standing in the center of FD and MK dairs/nairs you... okay? You just kinda take some damage and go to the side, maybe to the ledge if you're at a high percent. If you're in the center of Norfair? Good chance you're ending up on the ledge, or perhaps into some lava, depending. Center of Japes? Hope you react fast enough to jump over the croc, if it's there. Delfino? Could be practically any situation depending on the transformation (usually the ground though). See what I'm getting at?

Chaingrabs have totally different results depending on the stage, too. Ask ICs. Spikes, too, just ask anyone who's been spiked into lava/acid/water.

Each stage has different "situations" (semi-permeable and/or solid ground, static platforms, moving platforms, hazards, water, ledge, bottomless pit, slope, breakables, etc.) in different arrangements, meaning each successful attack puts your opponent somewhere totally different depending on where you are.
Not really...
the dair on FD is so characters specific

If it's ICs, they risk their stock I will kill that *****
If it's diddy they just lost stage control I am AT LEAST getting a banana or something out of it...
Past low percents in general I probably will get stage control. Small advantages eventually turn into larger ones. Ntm in most situations mk can dair he can also just nado.... and that sets up for juggles LMAO

Vs... If I get hit on delfino, I honestly don't care. I'm just gonna wait and then get free stage control from sharking when the stage changes anyway.... LMAO
 

Life

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Not really...
the dair on FD is so characters specific

If it's ICs, they risk their stock I will kill that *****
If it's diddy they just lost stage control I am AT LEAST getting a banana or something out of it...
Past low percents in general I probably will get stage control. Small advantages eventually turn into larger ones. Ntm in most situations mk can dair he can also just nado.... and that sets up for juggles LMAO

Vs... If I get hit on delfino, I honestly don't care. I'm just gonna wait and then get free stage control from sharking when the stage changes anyway.... LMAO
Disclaimer: these examples probably suck.
Characters are important too, moreso than stages actually. Dairing Jiggs and dairing Snake are two totally different experiences, lol. But you can't really say the stage has barely any influence. Options are similar but their results are far different.
 

Gust14

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BPC The tic-tac-toe example was very bland, still i won't attack it cause i know what you meant. And I see the point...depth (complexity) of gameplay is a primordial factor determining if a game will grow a competitive comunity or not. (No need for raging though, also you claim that the other part of my post is wrong but it has nothing to do with the tic-tac-toe example and you didn't gave any arguments)

People won't see the point on making big competitions in a game in wich you can memorize and apply all the viable strategies with minimal effort in a short time. You can't be creative, you can't take risks, you can't develop more skills, you can't take advantage; so it won't atract competitive players, there won't be big rewards or recognition, and it will remain a casual activity.

I stand corrected, i was taking everything to an idealized context, i didn't take into account that people will take a competitive mindset only in a game where they feel that the more time and effort they spent, the more their potential to succed and their reward. It just has sence.

And conceptually, a game is taken as "competitive" only if it grows a competitive comunity.

Still, many of my points stay on place, an example:

Digimon Rumble Arena was a fighter similar to the ssb series in various ways but never developed a competitive scene. If actually there was room for growing skills to outmaneuver your opponents, then why?... it didn't got a lot of publicity, just another random game on PS One, also it was about digimon jumping arround, simple commands and it also had items, it would never attract many "serious competitive fighter" players, and obviously nobody would organize a tournament. It wasn't popular enough. If Rumble Arena was about Nintendo all-stars on a more dedicated console it would be a different story.

So, in my point of view: a game is competitive if it actually grows a competitive community, those are created under certain conditions that depends on certain factors such as: room for creativity, popularity, and a popular tournament scene.

Room for creativity and popularity are almost exclusively on the companie's hands.

A popular tournament scene is the oposite. And this is what interests us, cause one of the most important basis for a popular tournament scene, and then for growing a competitive comunity, is the ruleset. Let's say that X game has room for creativity and so it has potential to become competitive, but this games aren't perfect and it happens that there are certain actions in the game that are viable strategies that can be applied with minimal effort and/or in a short time and just obfuscate every other one. The creativity is stuck and the only way to erase these obstacles is with a ruleset. Now, what things are cheap and what aren't? the comunnity decides cause after all it won't be a competitive game if it wasn't for its comunnity.

Again sorry for WoT but i'd like to see your opinions.
 

John12346

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Personally speaking, I think the competitive level of a game involves BOTH players and depth.

A game with high depth will draw competitive players...
...and a game with many participating players will allow the game to become more competitively deep.

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it just be both?
 

san.

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One can create a state matrix of every decision in games like tictactoe and checkers. Videogames in general are much harder, but we can still see which games have depth and which don't.

John #s, congrats on 1337 post.
 

Orion*

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Characters are important too, moreso than stages actually. Dairing Jiggs and dairing Snake are two totally different experiences, lol. But you can't really say the stage has barely any influence. Options are similar but their results are far different.
If that's the case then I don't see why people would advocate for stages like RC, Norfair, Brinstar ect to be legal. The reward for making a read and hitting an opponent becomes so drastically one sided in a lot of situations... Let alone the difficulty of landing the initial hit in a lot of matchups, lmao.

I.E.

MK vs Diddy on RC Vs. BF, if I'm playing ADHD or whatever this is what would run through my head...
I get Faired on BF, ADHD now has percent lead and I HAVE to at best approach him at some point. Generally Camping diddy the whole match will lead to me eventually losing the lead if I have a small one assuming there's an LGL. but With the lead I can generally control the pace of the match.
Even if I choose to approach I can place the timing, or not.. and I have the clock to my favor, and at this point I have the momentum. If wyatt has the lead and control, it's the opposite. I.E. how games generally work...

vs...

If I get faired at the boat or whatever on RC. I really... just don't care. I still don't need to approach him despite the fact that he has a lead. I can just do my Planking **** wait until the stage goes up and uair spam which is the safest thing in the game, and probably the worst position to be in ever. Despite making a good read, and getting the lead, he will still be at a huge disadvantage, and gets little to no momentum.
Can diddy win on RC?
of course... anything is possible.
if the players are on even skill levels though I should NOT happen though...

Last year when I lived at home I had a lot sets with wyatt in and out of tournament... in the tournament sets there where plenty of close games, but the ones that I won where either...
A. that set that chibo ran where I had no LGL LOL, wyatt STILL won the set by never letting me get the lead after game 1.
B. RC where despite wyatt ****** I just abused the stage and got some bull**** gimp. It didn't even feel like a win lmao.
 

Orion*

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i thought that was called a counterpick...

might be a pretty drastic counterpick, but it still is a counterpick
Even on a counterpick, if you get momentum or whatever you should be rewarded something, and then with that you can if you continue to outskill the other player keep the momentum going and then get a win, regardless of the MU favor.

Someone please continue with the skill is not relevant argument... because it is. People can do all this theory craft, ad homos-in or whatever they want but at the end of the day, game depth matters. I'm not talking about, LOOK HE CAN PLAY ON RC AND YOU CAN'T THAT OBVIOUSLY SHOWS A SKILL GAP.
Congratulations you can camp like a homo for 8 minutes while the other player is bored of trying to probably lose to an underskilled player anyway. I'm talking about, you know ACTUALLY playing the game. Zoning, Spacing, Stage Control, DI, Mindgames, I could go on forever. Players that master this crap don't give a **** about these damn stages.

Look at japan they don't even bother to use them and can still come over here and beat us on counterpicks... THATS PATHETIC LMAO. People spend more time thinking about all of this crap, and trying to get cheap wins from garbage game mechanics and stages, instead of ACTUALLY learning how to play. Take it from someone who literally learned this the hard way and ONLY played to *** people.
 

MK26

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i get exactly what youre saying

thats actually sort of the reasoning i use to ban pictochat

consider two players, one of significantly higher general skill (basically the exact kinds of skill you mentioned) but both of them with equal skill on a particular topic (whether it be items, a stage, w/e). Ignoring this specific topic, the skill difference is large enough that the person of higher general skill will win basically 10/10 games the two play against eachother. If, once the specific topic is introduced into the game, this higher-skilled player can't guarantee victories (ie he cant prevent his opponent from abusing it in order to win), then said topic is probably overcentralizing and probably deserves to be banned.

i dont think thats a comprehensive definition and shouldnt apply to character banning, but I think its fair and makes sense.
 

san.

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Depends. We shouldn't compensate for skilled players not knowing how to play on different types of stages. Too much whine.
 

MK26

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thats why i said an equal amount of skill on a particular topic

cuz if you wreck me in general, but i've practiced my whole life on rainbow cruise and you have no idea how to fight someone who knows whats going on there, then you losing to me there is no excuse for whining about the stage

the most commonly cited counterpoint in defence of picto is that yoshi's island brawl can still have the same magnitude of effect on matches (ie it can change the stock count randomly), so one should ban both or neither. however, if you take your superiorly skilled player and your inferiorly skilled player, teach them all they need to know about the stage (probably not as much as say, rainbow cruise, but that isnt necessarily a good thing or a bad thing), and tell them to battle each other, i dont think your results will look any different than usual.

No matter how much the weaker player tries to abuse, say, the support ghosts, the stronger player will probably be smart enough to not go for gimps to not give the ghosts a chance to save his opponent. Thus, he can prevent the topic from affecting the outcome, and thus it should be legal.
 
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