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I'm not saying that I'm encouraging blind buying, but at least show a little faith that at least one desirable character might be in there. You wait and see before judging whether it's worth it, that's all, not immediately assume the worst. But then again, you may actually be pleasantly surprised by the time you keep expecting nothing good, so carry on, I guess.
I wish this bleeding month would be done and over with already, it's making talking in here increasingly pointless. I'm leaving this thread for a bit, so see you all another time.
Please tell me I'm not the only one who doesn't see the whole pass situation with gloom and doom. No offense to anyone, but it's gotten real tiresome at this point.
For me it's less "doom and gloom" and more "there's a small handful of characters that would make me not want to have bought the pass". A consumer has to speak with their wallets and some things I can't put money down for.
Idk why but felt like posting some ideas on certain animations I feel geno would have if he gets in....
Idle animation: a mix that is kinda similar to ness, sonic, and samus or megaman. He’d have ness’s just casual swing of the arms(maybe slower), but occasionally raise both fists in a look of determination/focus (rewatch ness and sonic ‘s animation to get what I mean) while also occasionally checking his arm cannon similar to samus or megaman , press a few buttons and then it goes back to his normal arm.
Sleep animation: obviously gotta take the in battle animation where he’s constantly drifting on and off asleep with the giant (...snot?) bubble from his nose(btw anyone with more knowledge of Japanese culture and manga/anime, WHY Is someone sleeping always portrayed by a giant bubble from their noses?).
Shield stun animation: crouched over clutching his head similar to an animation he had when mario saved him from bowyers arrow.
Air dodge: ok so this ones gonna be kinda unique, and some probably wouldn’t like the mechanic tied to it as it’d be similar to Bayonettas air dodge somewhat... but idk, I kinda found it interesting and would make him stand out some more from everyone else geno quickly jumps out of the doll in star form for a bit and lets the doll get hit. He always takes a tiny fraction of (less than damage than Bayonettas bat within so it’s safer) damage every time (unless he gets hit during the end where just like everyone else the “invincibility” frames end and he gets hit like normal) but receives no knockback, even from powerful moves like a warlock punch. To compensate for always taking damage , he has slightly less helpless frames from both a directional dodge and normal one.
I know some probably would rather have a normal air dodge, but hey it’s just speculation after all....moving on.
Animation by getting hit by the sf focus attack, ridley down special, or stamina ko: his knockout animation in battle from smrpg, pretty easy.
Victory animations: obviously his one pose from a battle victory in smrpg, another would be inspired by his ending victory against smithy where he gathers all the stars around him and floats off to repair the star road, leaving just the doll behind. Another would be....idk. Maybe the victory screen shows just his star spirit choosing one of the dolls to possess before settling on the geno one, similar to how he did originally in smrpg?
Either way why not post some of y’alls ideas? It’s at least something different to talk about for a change here, and we certainly could use that...
You know, one more thing about Erdrick that made me realize, "This doesn't make much sense..."
Weren't phony leakers like LeakyPanda speculating Erdrick as early as August? There are also the people like Xenother who corroborated this, along with the Steve play-tester August claims. If not, it was something DQ in general, which makes me really wonder if the game of telephone spread out massive misinformation. LP, Xenother, and debatably Verge were already pointed out as having a lot of false info. The only person with a spotless track record so far is Tansut, yet he's only leaked one thing very, very vaguely. DQ popping up as a possibility around the same time as Steve makes me question the validity of that. If Steve isn't in as a playable character, yet we're getting some kind of MC content (allegedly), are we getting DQ content that is NOT a playable character?
Still leaning on Erdrick happening, which I know is a pretty controversial standpoint around here (again, preparing myself in case Geno ain't it, chief), but... a little food for thought. It's odd how similar their time frames were, with Steve looking suddenly that much less likely.
Besides, when it comes to the DLC, if we didn't know Joker, how on earth would anyone have known about Erdrick, a LATER character in the pass? I dunno. It's off. Whether he's in or not, his situation is totally unprecedented and never been seen in Smash speculation before. Ever.
Same. If the next reveal is indeed Erdrick like people are rumoring, that's pretty much anti-hype for me personally (not objectively, just according to my tastes). This second character is gonna make or break the pass for me. Joker just wasn't enough to sell me on it or give me any real clue of what to expect beyond 'wild and out there picks', which can still be a bunch of hit-and-miss stuff.
I've never heard of Persona/Shin Megami Tensei before Joker was announced, and I had only heard Joker brought up a couple times here, so the character himself isn't really too hype for me at the moment, I'll have to wait and see what he can do in Smash. I will buy the Fighter's Pass if Nintendo announces a character I find super hype, such as:
A Rareware character
Steve
A Sonic character
A Mother character
A Kirby character
Not to go off on a tangent, but seriously, Sonic deserves a new character in my eyes. And if I had to choose one...
Except that Dragon Quest III's protagonist DOESN'T have a lot going for them besides what leakers have said. That is literally it, I cannot count how many times I have been over and seen other people go over what this character has going for them, and every time the biggest argument is 'Well, all these leaks/leakers said that...'
Who gives a ****? They are just random people. We REALLY need to start treating every leaker, even the ones who had credibility, like the random 4chan leaks we ****ing laugh our ***** off at and move on. Why? Because, say it with me: Leakers hold no weight in an argument. I'll repeat this until I cannot breathe any longer because people still don't seem to get how just cuz Lil' Vergy said Erdrick was in doesn't mean that holds any weight at all.
You wanna know what really holds weight? Frank deconfirming Chief, Aubrey making Steve's chances look grim (though this holds less weight), B&K theme being removed from Lootcrate and Lootcrate tweet about B&K in Smash removed (this holds even less weight, but still more than a leaker) and Rare Spirits being in the game at one point. All of these things we use in B&K's favor hold more weight than 'X leaker said Y about Z, but they have no evidence'.
Also, people think there is a lot going for DQ3 protag, but honestly there isn't.
The major things are:
1. Leakers, which we know means nothing
2. DQ3 is the second-best selling game of all time in Japan, but the main protag is not cherished, only the game. Slime or Luminary are better fits.
3. Sakurai likes DQ and he likes DQ3. That's cool, so does most of Japan. Joker was picked regardless of Sakurai's bias and Sakurai's bias has done more good than bad. This really isn't a point for or against, but people act like it's gospel.
Erdrick is somewhat cherished and the support (the legitimate support that is) that has popped up shows he is to some degree beloved. If anything, everything I've personally seen indicates that Luminary is much more disliked than Erdrick. Similarly, I've seen Erdrick rank pretty well among DQ protagonists when that sort of thing comes up. People sometimes prefer Eight or another, but that's also the beauty of Dragon Quest in that it has lots of different protagonists and characters that are cherished. Many of the protagonists could work honestly, so it really comes down to preference. And like you said, Sakurai likes Dragon Quest 3, so there's a decent precedent to choose him with that in mind.
Dragon Quest 3 also introduces a lot of the major elements in the series such as party based gameplay and the class system that has been used several times since debuted in Dragon Quest 3. Dragon Quest 1 and 2 had also, as far as I know, built up the story of the great hero Erdrick and Dragon Quest 3 finally allowed players to experience his journey first hand.
Saying Luminary or Slime better represents Dragon Quest is entirely opinion as well, and a lot of people in the Erdrick thread would disagree with you as they just had a nice discussion as to why they didn't think Slime was the best pick. I to some extent still would enjoy seeing Slime as the DQ rep because of how creative you'd be forced to be with his moveset, but they've also made convincing arguments to me that made sense as to why you'd include one of the protagonists that you can find if you're interested.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to justify including Erdrick or Dragon Quest 3 beyond the “leakers.”
Same. If the next reveal is indeed Erdrick like people are rumoring, that's pretty much anti-hype for me personally (not objectively, just according to my tastes). This second character is gonna make or break the pass for me. Joker just wasn't enough to sell me on it or give me any real clue of what to expect beyond 'wild and out there picks', which can still be a bunch of hit-and-miss stuff.
Honestly Joker was for me the most anti-hype thing for me in Smash Ultimate so far, surpassing the ****ing Plant (yes really).
While i obviously would prefer Geno, at the very least Erdrick wouldn't make my eyes roll so hard that i could see the back of my head.
But my anti-Persona bias aside, i don't think i would have bought the whole Pass even if it included Geno and Banjo, i would rather buy the characters that i actually care about individually and left those i don't like to rot.. In a(n almost) ideal situation that the fighter pass was:
-Joker
-Dixie
-Geno
-Banjo
-Bandanna Dee
I would only buy the latter 4, and not touch Joker. No offer or discount would make me change my mind (im quite the stubborn kinda guy)
and i have to agree on the whole "OMG so unexpected" stuff that some people really overstate. The characters that i got hyped the most in Smash history are always those who i see as expected or at the very least reasonable and foreseeable (Mega Man, Little Mac, Mewtwo, Simon, King K.Rool, Ridley) while the "OMG So unexpected" are always the lowpoint of reveals and i barely play as them at all (Rosalina, Robin, Cloud, Wii Fit Trainer, Piranha Plant). Personally i always saw unexpect character reveals as a cheap tactic in order to elevate characters that are otherwise underwhelming, but that's a personal opinion saved for another time.
Oh and i just wanted to say, i support Geno in Smash, don't think i have said this before. I think he's cool and all.
Oh and has anyone else realized that Geno's spirit means it's a spirit whitin a spirit?
Erdrick is somewhat cherished and the support (the legitimate support that is) that has popped up shows he is to some degree beloved. If anything, everything I've personally seen indicates that Luminary is much more disliked than Erdrick. Similarly, I've seen Erdrick rank pretty well among DQ protagonists when that sort of thing comes up. People sometimes prefer Eight or another, but that's also the beauty of Dragon Quest in that it has lots of different protagonists and characters that are cherished. Many of the protagonists could work honestly, so it really comes down to preference. And like you said, Sakurai likes Dragon Quest 3, so there's a decent precedent to choose him with that in mind.
Dragon Quest 3 also introduces a lot of the major elements in the series such as party based gameplay and the class system that has been used several times since debuted in Dragon Quest 3. Dragon Quest 1 and 2 had also, as far as I know, built up the story of the great hero Erdrick and Dragon Quest 3 finally allowed players to experience his journey first hand.
Saying Luminary or Slime better represents Dragon Quest is entirely opinion as well, and a lot of people in the Erdrick thread would disagree with you as they just had a nice discussion as to why they didn't think Slime was the best pick. I to some extent still would enjoy seeing Slime as the DQ rep because of how creative you'd be forced to be with his moveset, but they've also made convincing arguments to me that made sense as to why you'd include one of the protagonists that you can find if you're interested.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to justify including Erdrick or Dragon Quest 3 beyond the “leakers.”
I'd personally love Slime in the game if it wasn't that getting a hero is so much more awesome
If they can make piranha plant work they could maybe make slime work (it doesnt really have any skills besides fleeing and merging, but there's some stuff they could use from the spin-offs probably), but a hero would still have so much more going. Plus there could be a slime in the moveset.
Anyway, I just hope they dont wait til E3 to reveal the next fighter. Leaning towards soon.
For me it's less "doom and gloom" and more "there's a small handful of characters that would make me not want to have bought the pass". A consumer has to speak with their wallets and some things I can't put money down for.
I'm the same here. I just have no desire for Smash Ultimate or it's fighter pass. The new comers sucked(except ridley, K. Rool, and simon.) The rumors for the season pass suck and the first character is another weeby generic looking anime guy with a blade that Sakurai wanted in the game.....This whole game/pass is disappointing and continues to be so.
Mate. I need to stop catching up on Geno threads before bed.
I just dreamt I was sharing a flat with a bunch of Smash fans. They got hammered and trashed the place but in amongst the trash were random amiibos. So I hunted for the amiibos throughout and a narrator suddenly started speaking, telling me Sakurai is in hysterics at both the state of my flat and that people will buy a PS4 just to play Cuphead(?!?!).
You can tell I’m excited for Cuphead on Switch and Smash DLC lol...
I'm the same here. I just have no desire for Smash Ultimate or it's fighter pass. The new comers sucked(except ridley, K. Rool, and simon.) The rumors for the season pass suck and the first character is another weeby generic looking anime guy with a blade that Sakurai wanted in the game.....This whole game/pass is disappointing and continues to be so.
Mate. I need to stop catching up on Geno threads before bed.
I just dreamt I was sharing a flat with a bunch of Smash fans. They got hammered and trashed the place but in amongst the trash were random amiibos. So I hunted for the amiibos throughout and a narrator suddenly started speaking, telling me Sakurai is in hysterics at both the state of my flat and that people will buy a PS4 just to play Cuphead(?!?!).
You can tell I’m excited for Cuphead on Switch and Smash DLC lol...
I’m still fairly hyped for the Fighter’s Pass. I cast my net quite wide with characters that could potentially interest me this hype cycle and it’s generally been a lot better for me than my previous limited interest in newcomers (Smash 4’s hype cycle taught me a lot and I was also probably a little brattier back then TBH).
There’s like a good solid 30 characters or so that could easily interest me that still can be added into Smash. It’s really hard to find a pick that I’d downright dislike (I’m ambivalent about Steve and the whole Granblue fighter stuff pissed me off to no end unlike most other suggestions, so that’s the worst of it). I’m also pretty sold on most ideas Sakurai puts forward. He’s shown me that he’s a talented developer that can really make anything work if he wants to. And honestly, as a Smash fan, I’ll always buy as many characters and stages as he puts out at this point.
It helps when Ultimate was my dream game from day one with a focus on retaining everyone from the past and bringing everyone together for at least ONE game. Plus the Belmont’s, Ridley, and King K Rool were all major wants for me personally. And I got all of my weird as hell stages back that most people hate (don’t ever change Mario Bros and Hannenbow, and Brinstar Depths changed exactly how I wanted it too).
The way Sakurai handled base game gave me the confidence to be hyped for the future. Joker generally reinforced that because while he wasn’t somebody I actively wanted, I do love Persona 4 Golden and instantly took to Persona and him in Smash. I’m definitely curious and a little anxious to see who is next just to get a better grasp of where things are headed and also because I want the community to breathe some sigh of relief because I feel the impatience and the antsy-ness of the community right now haha.
I'd personally love Slime in the game if it wasn't that getting a hero is so much more awesome
If they can make piranha plant work they could maybe make slime work (it doesnt really have any skills besides fleeing and merging, but there's some stuff they could use from the spin-offs probably), but a hero would still have so much more going. Plus there could be a slime in the moveset.
Anyway, I just hope they dont wait til E3 to reveal the next fighter. Leaning towards soon.
First , let me touch that boop button , oh my god what an adorable cookie.
Second , Teeb , have you played the DQ Monster Joker games ? There are a TON of slimes variants you can tame and recruit , all with unique abilities. They could easily make a basic slime use all of their abilities. https://dragon-quest.org/w/index.php?title=File:Slimese.jpg&action=view (A link to a picture since Smashboards seem to have trouble including pictures in messages recently...)
and someone did a full moveset for slime :
Honestly , I would prefer Slime over Erdrick or Eight. But I'm biased , I played the Monster Joker when I was pretty young and loved them more than Pokemon lol.
Idk why but felt like posting some ideas on certain animations I feel geno would have if he gets in....
Idle animation: a mix that is kinda similar to ness, sonic, and samus or megaman. He’d have ness’s just casual swing of the arms(maybe slower), but occasionally raise both fists in a look of determination/focus (rewatch ness and sonic ‘s animation to get what I mean) while also occasionally checking his arm cannon similar to samus or megaman , press a few buttons and then it goes back to his normal arm.
Sleep animation: obviously gotta take the in battle animation where he’s constantly drifting on and off asleep with the giant (...snot?) bubble from his nose(btw anyone with more knowledge of Japanese culture and manga/anime, WHY Is someone sleeping always portrayed by a giant bubble from their noses?).
Shield stun animation: crouched over clutching his head similar to an animation he had when mario saved him from bowyers arrow.
Air dodge: ok so this ones gonna be kinda unique, and some probably wouldn’t like the mechanic tied to it as it’d be similar to Bayonettas air dodge somewhat... but idk, I kinda found it interesting and would make him stand out some more from everyone else geno quickly jumps out of the doll in star form for a bit and lets the doll get hit. He always takes a tiny fraction of (less than damage than Bayonettas bat within so it’s safer) damage every time (unless he gets hit during the end where just like everyone else the “invincibility” frames end and he gets hit like normal) but receives no knockback, even from powerful moves like a warlock punch. To compensate for always taking damage , he has slightly less helpless frames from both a directional dodge and normal one.
I know some probably would rather have a normal air dodge, but hey it’s just speculation after all....moving on.
Animation by getting hit by the sf focus attack, ridley down special, or stamina ko: his knockout animation in battle from smrpg, pretty easy.
Victory animations: obviously his one pose from a battle victory in smrpg, another would be inspired by his ending victory against smithy where he gathers all the stars around him and floats off to repair the star road, leaving just the doll behind. Another would be....idk. Maybe the victory screen shows just his star spirit choosing one of the dolls to possess before settling on the geno one, similar to how he did originally in smrpg?
Either way why not post some of y’alls ideas? It’s at least something different to talk about for a change here, and we certainly could use that...
I love the idea for the air-dodge ! A lot of people forgot that Geno isn't just a doll , he's a possessed doll !
However , I think Geno's air-dodge should last longer than most regular air-dodges. It would create a very interesting disadvantage state for Geno.
If your opponent is too aggresive , his air-dodge will basically deny every aggresive option. But if the opponent manage to read or bait an air-dodge , he can easily punish Geno landing , or force a long lasting air-dodge off-stage.
This will make him vulnerable to spike and most edgeguard tools , since he would be in the drop zone. (Basically below the ledge , at the same angle where and like to recover with their up-special)
Also , it would be neat if one of his victory animation had Mallow in it. Or even Rosalina , since , let's be honest... She's the higher autority of Geno , if a remake ever happen.
Also , while talking about remakes , how would you feel if the Geno doll was possessed by a luma instead of a star ?
I wouldn’t like the idea of him being a luma tbh, and the reason is; part of geno’s appeal is the fact that while we know he’s a star spirit possessing a doll, his star spirit form isn’t really defined much other than being a flickering star. It has no face, no real defining characteristics, nothing other than a star shape.
Lumas on the other hand, have eyes, some even mouths and “clothes”, and a rounded sort of “goofy” appearance overall. Even if he was designed to be a more serious looking luma, people’s own personal ideas of how he looked in star form would be shattered.
It’s similar to how nintendo has handled the design of fairies in most zelda games after oot(excluding ww) where they’re just a ball of light with wings, and it’s up to players imaginations as to what they actually look like. If a remake did happen and lumas existed, I’d rather geno’s star spirit be considered a different entity considered star warriors, who don’t have any seriously defined characteristics in star form, and so players are left to imagine what they look like in detail.
For me it's less "doom and gloom" and more "there's a small handful of characters that would make me not want to have bought the pass". A consumer has to speak with their wallets and some things I can't put money down for.
This is exactly what I'm thinking. I refuse to buy a character if I deem them too divisive or lacking enough creativity/appeal to be worth financially supporting. For example, of all the Smash 4 DLC, the one character that I refused to ever buy was Roy. All due respect to his fans, and I know that he isn't a complete Marth clone anymore, but as someone who already doesn't care for the generic FE characters, I saw him as just a cheap cash grab. He was a semi-clone of a character I never really liked to play anyway, so I voted with my wallet and told Nintendo in my own way that they would need to get more creative if they wanted my money. Then along came Cloud and cha-ching! Not to say my boycott did much, but I'll bet Nintendo saw a significant difference in sales between the two DLC.
I think we should talk about potential victory poses. One idea I had was for Geno to run up, trip and slump over, head down, and have the star come out and dance around him.
Let's say one day nintendo brings him back into a few spinoffs/sports games/smash and nintendo decides to give him his own standalone game, what would it be like?
Let's say one day nintendo brings him back into a few spinoffs/sports games/smash and nintendo decides to give him his own standalone game, what would it be like?
Concerning his stand alone game... One close friend of mine strongly suggested a spritiual sequel to Mario Galaxy.
Basically , something would be a threat to the universe (the remains of some shroob , a over-powered Bowser , imagine what you want !) and Rosalina and Geno would need to stop it.
After all , it's a popular theory that Geno is strongly related to her , so they would make a perfect team.
The game would be a mix of adventure , action and platforming with slight RPG elements. You would travel from planet to planet , searching for answers and trying your best to stop the upcoming chaos.
Rosalina would be more on the floaty side , like in Mario 3D World. Her attacks would have a lot of range but she will easily be overwhelmed if ennemies start to become too close.
She could also create launch stars with enough star fragments or if a luma is willing to do it.
Geno would be more on the faster side but have shorter jumps , you could compare him to Toad in 3D World. Of course he would have a ton of projectiles to deal with ennemies , and even some up-close attacks. He will be pretty fragile , so you can't just rush through ennemies with him.
Geno could have several jumps by shooting downard a projectile , to give him upward momentum.
They could both be upgraded through star fragments with Rosalina , so she could upgrade her magical wand.
For Geno , she mentionned a pretty intersting idea.
At one point of the story , Geno would fall in Mario's planet by accident , nearby E.Gadd lab. E.Gadd will fix him up , listen to his story and decide to help him on his quest , so he can discover more stuff about space for scientifics researchs.
He would create a new spaceship for the Toad Brigade , and would ask them and Captain Toad/Toadette to help Geno in exchange of green stars. They will bring Geno back to the observatory and will help them on their quest.
E.Gadd could control the spaceship through his lab and create upgrades for Geno with enough green stars. He would send them through some kind of teleporter.
I even imagined a scenario where Bowser. Junior or a koopaling find E.Gadd lab and mess up everything , so you couldn't rely on the Brigade Toad spaceship for a while.
It would also be a nice way to introduce Bowser or another Mario villain/hero from Mario's planet to the story.
Maybe they could be in contact with Geno and Rosalina ? A Mallow interaction with Geno could be funny , and a Peach/Rosalina interaction would be very interesting.
Man , the more I think about this , the more I start to realize that Mario has one of the most developped universe in gaming lol.
I wouldn’t like the idea of him being a luma tbh, and the reason is; part of geno’s appeal is the fact that while we know he’s a star spirit possessing a doll, his star spirit form isn’t really defined much other than being a flickering star. It has no face, no real defining characteristics, nothing other than a star shape.
Lumas on the other hand, have eyes, some even mouths and “clothes”, and a rounded sort of “goofy” appearance overall. Even if he was designed to be a more serious looking luma, people’s own personal ideas of how he looked in star form would be shattered.
It’s similar to how nintendo has handled the design of fairies in most zelda games after oot(excluding ww) where they’re just a ball of light with wings, and it’s up to players imaginations as to what they actually look like. If a remake did happen and lumas existed, I’d rather geno’s star spirit be considered a different entity considered star warriors, who don’t have any seriously defined characteristics in star form, and so players are left to imagine what they look like in detail.
I fully understand.
Geno's star form lack of defining traits let the player be very imaginative with what he could look like. After all , I think it's one of the biggest reasons younger players like Geno : You can imagine a lot of stuff with him.
And after all , knowing Rosalina , it wouldn't surprise me that she has some elite star warriors or something like that.
I think we should talk about potential victory poses. One idea I had was for Geno to run up, trip and slump over, head down, and have the star come out and dance around him.
Let's say one day nintendo brings him back into a few spinoffs/sports games/smash and nintendo decides to give him his own standalone game, what would it be like?
I think it'd definitely be a lot more serious and calm than most Mario games. An idea I have for part of a potential game like that is the Geno doll being nowhere to be seen, and the star spirit trying to find it.
Now that I think about it, in a sequel to SMRPG, maybe the game could revolve more around the star spirit without the Geno doll.
First , let me touch that boop button , oh my god what an adorable cookie.
Second , Teeb , have you played the DQ Monster Joker games ? There are a TON of slimes variants you can tame and recruit , all with unique abilities. They could easily make a basic slime use all of their abilities. https://dragon-quest.org/w/index.php?title=File:Slimese.jpg&action=view (A link to a picture since Smashboards seem to have trouble including pictures in messages recently...)
and someone did a full moveset for slime :
Honestly , I would prefer Slime over Erdrick or Eight. But I'm biased , I played the Monster Joker when I was pretty young and loved them more than Pokemon lol.
Dragon Quest Monsters is one of my favorite series of all time. (dunno if you notice the heal slime in my sig )
There's always been a lot of different slimes, but it would feel weird to me if a basic slime was able to transform into another kind (temporarily?) to have a different move. They're still all different monsters that happen to be in the slime family.
I did watch that video before, and I'm not saying I couldn't get used to it in smash, and lots of other characters aren't exactly canon with their movesets, but I feel like it'd go a bit over the line in terms of how slime are in dq. It'd almost be like pikachu turning into another mouse pokemon for a move. Only not as bad cuz it's a slime
And I'm surprised they didn't use a drake slime for some of the aerial stuff. If it's just using the other slimes' abilities then it's not as bad, But in any case I'd still enjoy slime in smash, it's just not my first choice.
As for Geno, I do think that they definitely could've made some spin-offs or something. Even just a small game somewhere. It'd be a great way to gauge his popularity and how much people would like more of him.
Erdrick is somewhat cherished and the support (the legitimate support that is) that has popped up shows he is to some degree beloved. If anything, everything I've personally seen indicates that Luminary is much more disliked than Erdrick. Similarly, I've seen Erdrick rank pretty well among DQ protagonists when that sort of thing comes up. People sometimes prefer Eight or another, but that's also the beauty of Dragon Quest in that it has lots of different protagonists and characters that are cherished. Many of the protagonists could work honestly, so it really comes down to preference. And like you said, Sakurai likes Dragon Quest 3, so there's a decent precedent to choose him with that in mind.
Dragon Quest 3 also introduces a lot of the major elements in the series such as party based gameplay and the class system that has been used several times since debuted in Dragon Quest 3. Dragon Quest 1 and 2 had also, as far as I know, built up the story of the great hero Erdrick and Dragon Quest 3 finally allowed players to experience his journey first hand.
Saying Luminary or Slime better represents Dragon Quest is entirely opinion as well, and a lot of people in the Erdrick thread would disagree with you as they just had a nice discussion as to why they didn't think Slime was the best pick. I to some extent still would enjoy seeing Slime as the DQ rep because of how creative you'd be forced to be with his moveset, but they've also made convincing arguments to me that made sense as to why you'd include one of the protagonists that you can find if you're interested.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to justify including Erdrick or Dragon Quest 3 beyond the “leakers.”
Official, I'm never calling it Smash Bros ever again, only ever 'Nintendo Stars Big Fight'. XD
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So, here is what by 'regardless of his bias': Sakurai has a list to pick from or something like that, assembled by Nintendo, right? This means that Nintendo already selected Joker as an option. Thus, if we are to believe Sakurai on 'Nintendo making the picks and I just select from what they give me and make a character' this means that, sure, he picked Joker form the list likely from his own bias (though, once again, Sakurai seems really good on letting his bias affect his work and often when his bias is involved, it results in something good), but the Joker was an option at all is thanks to Nintendo. I didn't clarify what I meant by this, my apologies.
To completely clarify, what I meant was regardless of Sakurai's bias, Nintendo still had to have Joker as an option, and that just because Sakurai likes something doesn't mean that it will have a better chance being in Smash based off that alone as he would have bias towards a number of things and not everything he loves has shown up in Smash.
I have to say, I don't know where you see this 'DQ3 protag is cherished' stuff. I'm not saying he doesn't have any legitimate support, but rather that his support was rather quiet before the 'leaks' came out and since then only the ones who have bandwagon-ed and don't give a crap about DQ3 or the main protag or DQ at all just want to be right and are staining the community. Those are the only ones I see active, with the exception of Teeb147
and maybe one or two others here that genuinely want the character. Everyone else is either 'He's in, stfu' and has no love for the character or wants a different DQ rep, like Slime or Luminary or Eight.
Being the best game in the series does not equal being the favorite protagonist of the series. Sure, DQ3 was ground-breaking for it's time and shaped the genre, that's really cool and all...but what did DQ3's protag do? Is he memorable, or is the game memorable and he's just a throwaway part of it? It would seem the latter as even in the nation where the game is the second-best selling game of all time, the support for representation in Smash falls to Slime and not DQ3 protag.
Now about Slime or Luminary being a better pick, I will agree that is technically subjective, but you know what isn't subjective? The fact that adding a rep that the West recognizes as DLC will make more money than adding one they do not recognize. Slime and Luminary fit the bill on this for DQ: even if you haven't played a single DQ game, there is a good chance you've seen a Slime and can mentally tie that to DQ. It's similar to parents from the Pokemon craze (and even now) who never played a single game knowing who Pikachu or Charizard are from the fact of seeing it everywhere, though obviously Slime would have much less presence in the West than Pikachu. Luminary is also a better pick for sales because he's the protag of the thus-best-selling DQ game in the West, meaning he would be the most recognized DQ protag in the West this side of Eight, who is the protag of the second-best-selling DQ game in the West if I'm not mistaken. You REALLY need to keep in mind that just recently Smash Ultimate yet 3 million copies in Japan while the US topped that within roughly the first month or less: while Sakurai and Smash shouldn't cater to the West entirely, they should cater a bit more than they have (which they are doing better at, granted) because we will eat that **** up and pay out big bucks.
You say there are plenty of reasons, but you only listed...what, three? And it's always the same arguments: "DQ3 is so big in Japan! Sakurai loves DQ3! It's been leaked!" Have you ever noticed that the arguments do not change into anything more substantial or evolve to include new reasoning? Why is that? Because there is nothing backing this, nothing new emerging that adds interest or speculation, and it's partially the communities fault: they have been so convinced on his inclusion that, rather than having healthy discussion and pointing out interesting things, they just chant 'He's in, he's in,m he's in!' The other issues is that...nothing major around DQ3 or really DQ at all has happened that would place intrigue into the topic: Nintendo getting the definitive edition of DQXI is nothing crazy and them promoting it heavily is nothing new. Developers tweeting things about DQ means nothing because the whole nation loves DQ and nothing has been deemed NDA-breaking and no tweets about the character have been taken down. It's honestly...just uneventful. Doesn't mean we aren't getting a DQ rep, but there hasn't been as much stirrings about it...you know, minus the 'leakers'.
This is why the 'leaks' are constantly brought up by bandwagon-ers, because it's the only big stirring about DQ being in Smash, and it doesn't even have any credibility. First off, as I've said a billion times, leakers almost never have any proof that what they say is real and force us to just take their word for it. When you add in that Vergeben, the first to show us this 'List of the Seven Square Reps' not only has bias against Geno but also has bias for DQ as a whole, and you can't take what he says seriously. Also, and don't quote me, but it's rumored that Verge got the list for Xenother, and we all know he hasn't gotten **** right. This would means these two leakers have piggybacked off one another yet haven't gotten much of anything Nintendo right since the end of the Smash Base Cycle.
Then you have Tansut claiming that the character is in just because he brought up the name with his 'source' and wasn't corrected, and suddenly that means DQ3 protag is in. That is a huge leap in logic: just because someone doesn't tell you information on something doesn't mean you are right or wrong, it simply means they are withholding information from you for some reason. His source not telling him it wasn't DQ3 protag doesn't mean it IS DQ3 protag: it could be literally anyone, including other DQ reps or and other Square rep or LITERALLY ANY OTHER REP! But since Tansut assumes how he read a situation, he took it to support what he believes, thus confirmation bias. Not to mention he was super cryptic about Cloud AND got his release date incorrect, but now he's just super open about it and doesn't care about ruining the surprise? Hmm, that's not very consistent.
I'm going to go EVEN deeper to show the reasons why DQ3's protag has much less of a chance than people really understand. Now Teeb, I hope you understand that when I put things up against DQ3's protag, it's not because I hate him or anything, but because people are being illogical about his chances. I really need this to be understood by true DQ3 protag fans because, my desire for him not to be in does not stem from the character or the games, but from the assholes that tainted your support base and pushed away your outside support by being bombastic and obnoxious...but I do not hate the character and I will be happy for the true fans of the character if he gets in.
Now, to start off the issues, let's look at just the only credible leaker now, Tansut. If the list Verge had and believe all this is real and that Tansut is credible and everything he said is true (minus the character being a lock of course) than DQ3 protag has some issues to deal with.
First off, why do I call him 'DQ3 protag' and not 'Erdrick' like I used to? Well, because that isn't his/her name: it's a title, and that throws a wrench into the supposedly solid argument. As it turns out, Erdrick or Roto/Loto is a title given to multiple protagonists in the DQ series, though it's unclear how many have received this title. DQXI is nearly two years old at this point so I don't get being worried about spoilers, but it's basically proven in lore that the title of Erdrick or Roto/Loto was given to someone else before the DQ3 protag and possibly has been given to others before even this person years before DQ3 protag. Also, the iconic sword and shield that the DQ3 protag wields has it's history given to us and shone that others have wielded both way before DQ3 protag.
This person of course is Luminary, the main protag of DQXI. The person who may have wielded the shield was Edwin, who gives the shield to Luminary, and the sword IS the sword Luminary has had the entire time. Now Luminary is also titled Erdrick, and this plays into what Verge said about 'Hearing Luminary whenever Erdrick was talked about' and Tansut 'not being corrected when calling the character Erdrick.' This is because they can easily be the same character, and we could get Luminary with the armaments of Erdrick or Loto/Roto in Smash.
Now, to counter the whole 'Brave' codename thing. Everyone thinks they are SO clever because they did some googling and found out that Brave very loosely translates to hero via Yuusha, but what they don't mention is that the codename is meant to hide the identity of the character. That code is normally not supposed to be seen by the public, only by devs, but it's put into a codename that the devs understand but anyone outside that circle would not. This means that DQ being so easily tied to the codename likely does it a disservice as it's way too obvious.
You know what also they don't tell you? That LITERALLY every single Dragon Quest protagonist can and is referred to as Yuusha or Hero, which throws in a brand new and even bigger wrench than the previous issue because now if we are going by the codename being a giveaway for Dragon Quest, it's not a lock for DQ3: literally any protagonist from the series falls under this, and Luminary is the most recent plus has the spoilers going for him, meaning he REALLY is being setup for a candidate for being the DQ rep if we get one. This isn't limited to DQ though, as literally any protagonist or character or saves the world or is referred to or could be referred to as a hero that originates from Japan falls under this, which is a goddamn well of characters.
Forget how Japan polls don't have DQ3 rep on their radar (but they do have Slime, oddly enough), forget how that game in particular has little to no Western presence, forget how Sakurai has mentioned problems with creating unique swordwielders due to the limitations of focusing on wielding a sword and the number of swordwielders already present in the game, forget Sakurai mentioning that he was looking for characters with global iconic appeal (which Luminary and Slime fit much better than DQ3 protag), forget that Corrin came from a game with similar presence in the West as it hadn't launched here yet and was received poorly because they weren't a requested character on top of being part of three groups that people felt were overrepresented (of which DQ3 protag would fit two: anime-styled and swordwielder [In fairness, Luminary would fall under these two as well, but Slime comes out fine]), and forget how there are many other Square characters which much more demand for their appearance than DQ3 protag or really DQ overall (especially in the West, but also slightly in Japan). Forget the multitude of things that show that specifically DQ3 protag is not the stellar choice even IF DQ gets a rep, the few things that most of these people based their entire argument on have no weight from multiple angles.
Yet, 'Erdrick is in guys, just accept it, he's a lock!' Funnily enough, this could be more true than even they realize, but not exactly how they envision it.
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Fun fact, remember the argument brought up for Sora vs DQ3 protag in which Sora's Valor Form is called 'Brave Stance' in Japan? Welp, Yuusha also translates to 'man of valor' and the English name is Valor Form, so the name fits the bill in both Japanese and English. Not to mention that Sora also falls under being a hero in terms of his games and thus falls under Yuusha in that regard.
You know who is also a hero according to his game? A certain blue puppet boi...
Official, I'm never calling it Smash Bros ever again, only ever 'Nintendo Stars Big Fight'. XD
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So, here is what by 'regardless of his bias': Sakurai has a list to pick from or something like that, assembled by Nintendo, right? This means that Nintendo already selected Joker as an option. Thus, if we are to believe Sakurai on 'Nintendo making the picks and I just select from what they give me and make a character' this means that, sure, he picked Joker form the list likely from his own bias (though, once again, Sakurai seems really good on letting his bias affect his work and often when his bias is involved, it results in something good), but the Joker was an option at all is thanks to Nintendo. I didn't clarify what I meant by this, my apologies.
To completely clarify, what I meant was regardless of Sakurai's bias, Nintendo still had to have Joker as an option, and that just because Sakurai likes something doesn't mean that it will have a better chance being in Smash based off that alone as he would have bias towards a number of things and not everything he loves has shown up in Smash.
I have to say, I don't know where you see this 'DQ3 protag is cherished' stuff. I'm not saying he doesn't have any legitimate support, but rather that his support was rather quiet before the 'leaks' came out and since then only the ones who have bandwagon-ed and don't give a crap about DQ3 or the main protag or DQ at all just want to be right and are staining the community. Those are the only ones I see active, with the exception of Teeb147
and maybe one or two others here that genuinely want the character. Everyone else is either 'He's in, stfu' and has no love for the character or wants a different DQ rep, like Slime or Luminary or Eight.
Being the best game in the series does not equal being the favorite protagonist of the series. Sure, DQ3 was ground-breaking for it's time and shaped the genre, that's really cool and all...but what did DQ3's protag do? Is he memorable, or is the game memorable and he's just a throwaway part of it? It would seem the latter as even in the nation where the game is the second-best selling game of all time, the support for representation in Smash falls to Slime and not DQ3 protag.
Now about Slime or Luminary being a better pick, I will agree that is technically subjective, but you know what isn't subjective? The fact that adding a rep that the West recognizes as DLC will make more money than adding one they do not recognize. Slime and Luminary fit the bill on this for DQ: even if you haven't played a single DQ game, there is a good chance you've seen a Slime and can mentally tie that to DQ. It's similar to parents from the Pokemon craze (and even now) who never played a single game knowing who Pikachu or Charizard are from the fact of seeing it everywhere, though obviously Slime would have much less presence in the West than Pikachu. Luminary is also a better pick for sales because he's the protag of the thus-best-selling DQ game in the West, meaning he would be the most recognized DQ protag in the West this side of Eight, who is the protag of the second-best-selling DQ game in the West if I'm not mistaken. You REALLY need to keep in mind that just recently Smash Ultimate yet 3 million copies in Japan while the US topped that within roughly the first month or less: while Sakurai and Smash shouldn't cater to the West entirely, they should cater a bit more than they have (which they are doing better at, granted) because we will eat that **** up and pay out big bucks.
You say there are plenty of reasons, but you only listed...what, three? And it's always the same arguments: "DQ3 is so big in Japan! Sakurai loves DQ3! It's been leaked!" Have you ever noticed that the arguments do not change into anything more substantial or evolve to include new reasoning? Why is that? Because there is nothing backing this, nothing new emerging that adds interest or speculation, and it's partially the communities fault: they have been so convinced on his inclusion that, rather than having healthy discussion and pointing out interesting things, they just chant 'He's in, he's in,m he's in!' The other issues is that...nothing major around DQ3 or really DQ at all has happened that would place intrigue into the topic: Nintendo getting the definitive edition of DQXI is nothing crazy and them promoting it heavily is nothing new. Developers tweeting things about DQ means nothing because the whole nation loves DQ and nothing has been deemed NDA-breaking and no tweets about the character have been taken down. It's honestly...just uneventful. Doesn't mean we aren't getting a DQ rep, but there hasn't been as much stirrings about it...you know, minus the 'leakers'.
This is why the 'leaks' are constantly brought up by bandwagon-ers, because it's the only big stirring about DQ being in Smash, and it doesn't even have any credibility. First off, as I've said a billion times, leakers almost never have any proof that what they say is real and force us to just take their word for it. When you add in that Vergeben, the first to show us this 'List of the Seven Square Reps' not only has bias against Geno but also has bias for DQ as a whole, and you can't take what he says seriously. Also, and don't quote me, but it's rumored that Verge got the list for Xenother, and we all know he hasn't gotten **** right. This would means these two leakers have piggybacked off one another yet haven't gotten much of anything Nintendo right since the end of the Smash Base Cycle.
Then you have Tansut claiming that the character is in just because he brought up the name with his 'source' and wasn't corrected, and suddenly that means DQ3 protag is in. That is a huge leap in logic: just because someone doesn't tell you information on something doesn't mean you are right or wrong, it simply means they are withholding information from you for some reason. His source not telling him it wasn't DQ3 protag doesn't mean it IS DQ3 protag: it could be literally anyone, including other DQ reps or and other Square rep or LITERALLY ANY OTHER REP! But since Tansut assumes how he read a situation, he took it to support what he believes, thus confirmation bias. Not to mention he was super cryptic about Cloud AND got his release date incorrect, but now he's just super open about it and doesn't care about ruining the surprise? Hmm, that's not very consistent.
I'm going to go EVEN deeper to show the reasons why DQ3's protag has much less of a chance than people really understand. Now Teeb, I hope you understand that when I put things up against DQ3's protag, it's not because I hate him or anything, but because people are being illogical about his chances. I really need this to be understood by true DQ3 protag fans because, my desire for him not to be in does not stem from the character or the games, but from the ******** that tainted your support base and pushed away your outside support by being bombastic and obnoxious...but I do not hate the character and I will be happy for the true fans of the character if he gets in.
Now, to start off the issues, let's look at just the only credible leaker now, Tansut. If the list Verge had and believe all this is real and that Tansut is credible and everything he said is true (minus the character being a lock of course) than DQ3 protag has some issues to deal with.
First off, why do I call him 'DQ3 protag' and not 'Erdrick' like I used to? Well, because that isn't his/her name: it's a title, and that throws a wrench into the supposedly solid argument. As it turns out, Erdrick or Roto/Loto is a title given to multiple protagonists in the DQ series, though it's unclear how many have received this title. DQXI is nearly two years old at this point so I don't get being worried about spoilers, but it's basically proven in lore that the title of Erdrick or Roto/Loto was given to someone else before the DQ3 protag and possibly has been given to others before even this person years before DQ3 protag. Also, the iconic sword and shield that the DQ3 protag wields has it's history given to us and shone that others have wielded both way before DQ3 protag.
This person of course is Luminary, the main protag of DQXI. The person who may have wielded the shield was Edwin, who gives the shield to Luminary, and the sword IS the sword Luminary has had the entire time. Now Luminary is also titled Erdrick, and this plays into what Verge said about 'Hearing Luminary whenever Erdrick was talked about' and Tansut 'not being corrected when calling the character Erdrick.' This is because they can easily be the same character, and we could get Luminary with the armaments of Erdrick or Loto/Roto in Smash.
Now, to counter the whole 'Brave' codename thing. Everyone thinks they are SO clever because they did some googling and found out that Brave very loosely translates to hero via Yuusha, but what they don't mention is that the codename is meant to hide the identity of the character. That code is normally not supposed to be seen by the public, only by devs, but it's put into a codename that the devs understand but anyone outside that circle would not. This means that DQ being so easily tied to the codename likely does it a disservice as it's way too obvious.
You know what also they don't tell you? That LITERALLY every single Dragon Quest protagonist can and is referred to as Yuusha or Hero, which throws in a brand new and even bigger wrench than the previous issue because now if we are going by the codename being a giveaway for Dragon Quest, it's not a lock for DQ3: literally any protagonist from the series falls under this, and Luminary is the most recent plus has the spoilers going for him, meaning he REALLY is being setup for a candidate for being the DQ rep if we get one. This isn't limited to DQ though, as literally any protagonist or character or saves the world or is referred to or could be referred to as a hero that originates from Japan falls under this, which is a goddamn well of characters.
Forget how Japan polls don't have DQ3 rep on their radar (but they do have Slime, oddly enough), forget how that game in particular has little to no Western presence, forget how Sakurai has mentioned problems with creating unique swordwielders due to the limitations of focusing on wielding a sword and the number of swordwielders already present in the game, forget Sakurai mentioning that he was looking for characters with global iconic appeal (which Luminary and Slime fit much better than DQ3 protag), forget that Corrin came from a game with similar presence in the West as it hadn't launched here yet and was received poorly because they weren't a requested character on top of being part of three groups that people felt were overrepresented (of which DQ3 protag would fit two: anime-styled and swordwielder [In fairness, Luminary would fall under these two as well, but Slime comes out fine]), and forget how there are many other Square characters which much more demand for their appearance than DQ3 protag or really DQ overall (especially in the West, but also slightly in Japan). Forget the multitude of things that show that specifically DQ3 protag is not the stellar choice even IF DQ gets a rep, the few things that most of these people based their entire argument on have no weight from multiple angles.
Yet, 'Erdrick is in guys, just accept it, he's a lock!' Funnily enough, this could be more true than even they realize, but not exactly how they envision it.
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Fun fact, remember the argument brought up for Sora vs DQ3 protag in which Sora's Valor Form is called 'Brave Stance' in Japan? Welp, Yuusha also translates to 'man of valor' and the English name is Valor Form, so the name fits the bill in both Japanese and English. Not to mention that Sora also falls under being a hero in terms of his games and thus falls under Yuusha in that regard.
You know who is also a hero according to his game? A certain blue puppet boi...
Why do you feel the need to address the leaker situation in almost every post surrounding any discussion of Erdrick or Dragon Quest in Smash? I didn't even bring them up in the last post, and I have constantly reiterated that they only slightly contribute to any ideas I have surrounding Erdrick, and that's mostly because of the quantity of people mentioning him. And all I really think is that it means something. I don't treat it as a confirmation, I don't even treat it as evidence for his inclusion because, well, as you've said, there's no hard proof anywhere that we know of. But a lot of people saying the same thing does warrant maybe just a little bit of attention when a name comes up multiple times, just to see why a name comes up so often. That's all.
That said, nobody here is positioning leakers as the primary argument for anything, and the people here aren't bringing that up as some constant point or saying that you have to believe the leak, so again, why keep doing it here? Smash Boards and the Character Pages are generally one of the most chill places for Smash speculation with a lot more acceptance. Like, I get that you're super frustrated with the state of other places in the community, I get that you really don't want Erdrick because the usual gaggle of idiots around parts of the web have attached to him and pushed Geno down, and I get that you want to vent all of that. But nobody here is doing that and it's not relevant to most of the discussions we're having.
But, lets get into the Dragon Quest situation and why I fundamentally disagree with most of your judgments on the situation:
1. You bring up the fact that Erdrick's support was "quiet before release" and that he only exploded in the aftermath of leakers. This is true. That said, we see similar explosions of popularity anytime that a character becomes more plausible. Banjo Kazooie was considered an impossible character for well over a decade until Phil Spencer's Tweet ignited the hearts of a great many Banjo fans around the world. Geno's Smash 4 thread was tiny by all measures, but has clearly seen a massive explosion in the wake of Sakurai's specific comments surrounding his interest in the character and his rising chance for Ultimate. These characters enjoy revived and expanding communities because their perceived chance to be included rises in the community. That often achieves a few different things, the most immediate of which being that it becomes a more acceptable character to support. As you've pointed out, at the best of times, the Smash community can be standoffish and problematic. That certainly applies for any character, Erdrick included. People see their chance to finally express support they may not have otherwise been willing to.
The second major effect is that it generally opens up new conversations about these characters and their potential. Such conversations can potentially attract new fans and make them interested in something they didn't know they wanted. Fans can come aboard as they have discussions and become more accepting of characters they may have initially had no interest in, or even actively disliked. The character becomes "normalized" in the community. This can sometimes be seen as "bandwagoning," but that doesn't mean that they're bad faith supporters or fairweather supporters or whatever. This is fundamental to how some character communities grow and shouldn't be seen as so problematic by a lot of Smash fans I think. If you bandwagon just to be right and wave your correctness in someone's face, that's obviously a problem, but it happens with every Smash game and character situation at some point. There's good "bandwagoners" and bad "bandwagoners" like most things. There's a very nice support thread of people right next door that seem quite happy with the idea of Erdrick to further back that up.
2. You also make a pretty hard value judgment with regards to sales. You position the success of Dragon Quest 11 in the West as a prime reason for choosing Luminary over Erdrick. On paper that makes sense because there's potentially a greater install base to sell to in the West, sure. That said, you still make an assumption that Nintendo's going to inherently value that over their home country and DQ's place of origin. The 1 Million sales of DQ 11 in the west are prioritized over the nearly 4 million of Dragon Quest 3 in the East in your argument. That's making a value judgment in favor of appealing to the West that we don't know about for certain in the least bit. The other issue arises in that the assumption is that sales of one game seem to directly influence the purchasing habits with regards to DLC. People who have played Dragon Quest 11 are not going to be necessarily more or less likely to buy Luminary or Erdrick. Brand recognition can be enough in such instances to influence people's purchasing decisions. Especially when there's probably a pretty high overlap between the two in the west. Dragon Quest fans tend to be supportive of Dragon Quest content from a lot of what I've seen.
3. Dragon Quest specifically has lots of reasons to see inclusion in Smash as one of the main franchises associated with Nintendo over the past 30 years not currently in Smash. Again, it's the granddaddy of the console RPG, has lasted across multiple generations, and sold extremely well in Japan. But there's much less of a clear cut winner when it comes to representing the games. Cloud had a huge fan presence and was emblematic of Final Fantasy's explosion in popularity. Dragon Quest doesn't really have one specific title that does that. Multiple titles say extremely well in Japan, while the ones that actually get marketing and promotion do decently well in Japan. There's no clear cut winner over the rest of the games. Which means you have different choices in choosing which one to focus on for representation in Smash.
So, why do arguments like "DQ3 is so big in Japan" and "Sakurai loves DQ3!" not amount to the more? Entire Smash fandoms and support threads have been born from less. And like I just mentioned, there's not an absolute clear cut winner for DQ's popularity. The top selling games of the DQ series in Japan: Dragon Quest VII, Dragon Quest IX, and Dragon Quest III all hover at about 4 million sales apiece (Which I'm basing on this article since sales figures are a little harder to find in Japan: https://soranews24.com/2012/07/08/japans-best-selling-video-games-of-all-time/ ). So, suddenly things like Sakurai liking the game and the game retaining a legacy in Japan become much more important reasons to make DQ 3 stand out when determing which game to realize in Smash. Especially when that game also contributed much of DQ's core mechanics and systems while acting as the original culmination to the first three games with the "real" Erdrick. You say people can only bring up those two points, but they're kind of quite significant points and brought up for a reason. Sakurai's attachment to things has gotten characters and franchises in before, and hell, we're kind of banking on it for Geno, why should his approval and love not count for DQ 3?
4. Which brings me to really the biggest issue I have with a lot of your statements. You assume that Sakurai has no autonomy of his own to pick whichever character he likes the most and that he "should cater to the west [sic] more than they have." Again, there's a judgment that has no impact on how Sakurai will actually pick a character. He doesn't have to cater to anyone and he's not just going to exclusively pick characters that fans support or the more popular character in the West over a popular one in the East. He does try to be considerate with some of his picks, but at the end of the day, he chooses and his own biases do result in certain characters making it in over others. I don't know how much more catering you want him to the West and fans in general when Ultimate was developed basically with the fan mindset in mind. We've seen characters dominated by Western popularity make it in the game as well in the forms of Ridley and Little Mac. Most characters tend to be pretty popular worldwide though, so it's not like there's a ton of Western and Eastern picks just inherently in the game.
You can bring up false equivalencies like Takumaru, but Erdrick is on a whole other level as a character as is Dragon Quest as a franchise. Erdrick is recognizable character in the East, while Dragon Quest as a whole is a recognizable franchise globally. Again, no protagonist takes up the prime spot there and Sakurai has emphasized that he does like to include protagonists when representing new franchises, so why not go with Erdrick? There's really nothing against him in that regard as again, there is no clear cut leader for DQ representation in Smash. If the game is, "the best game in the series" or whatever, what better way to specifically highlight than using it's protagonist to say, "Hey, I'm specifically representing Dragon Quest 3 with this character choice." You can say Slime's more memorable overall, but he doesn't distinctly represent DQ3 like Erdrick would.
5. I'm not the most well versed in Dragon Quest lore, but DQ3's protagonist was the first to be awarded the title which had been built up across the previous games as I've earlier mentioned. DQ11's connection to that idea seems to be more of homage or easter egg than anything as the DQ games aren't inherently direct sequels of one another except in certain instances like the original three.
As he's the first to be awarded the title and generally has been nominally accepted as Erdrick, I think you can still call him Erdrick and not need to refer to his as the DQ3 protagonist, but I might be going further than my knowledge allows there.
Then there's also that Erdrick fits a very specific fan complaint of anime, swordsmen, which really should be considered a non-issue when Sakurai can easily find ways to diversify Erdrick into more of an all around fighter and mage type by pulling from the moves that DQ characters use. Anime specifically is just the most useless complaint ever seeing as characters can practically anything while still in that definition.
There's plenty of weight to Dragon Quest 3 as the DQ choice. You may disagree with the idea of him as the DQ protagonist (Well, you clearly do), but being one of the top three selling DQ games in Japan alongside Sakurai's favorite in a series where any single protagonist could potentially work to represent the massive series that is Dragon Quest makes Erdrick legitimately have a shot at being the DQ rep if we get one. Especially when his game is particularly relevant and impacts the series itself.
Official, I'm never calling it Smash Bros ever again, only ever 'Nintendo Stars Big Fight'. XD
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So, here is what by 'regardless of his bias': Sakurai has a list to pick from or something like that, assembled by Nintendo, right? This means that Nintendo already selected Joker as an option. Thus, if we are to believe Sakurai on 'Nintendo making the picks and I just select from what they give me and make a character' this means that, sure, he picked Joker form the list likely from his own bias (though, once again, Sakurai seems really good on letting his bias affect his work and often when his bias is involved, it results in something good), but the Joker was an option at all is thanks to Nintendo. I didn't clarify what I meant by this, my apologies.
To completely clarify, what I meant was regardless of Sakurai's bias, Nintendo still had to have Joker as an option, and that just because Sakurai likes something doesn't mean that it will have a better chance being in Smash based off that alone as he would have bias towards a number of things and not everything he loves has shown up in Smash.
I have to say, I don't know where you see this 'DQ3 protag is cherished' stuff. I'm not saying he doesn't have any legitimate support, but rather that his support was rather quiet before the 'leaks' came out and since then only the ones who have bandwagon-ed and don't give a crap about DQ3 or the main protag or DQ at all just want to be right and are staining the community. Those are the only ones I see active, with the exception of Teeb147
and maybe one or two others here that genuinely want the character. Everyone else is either 'He's in, stfu' and has no love for the character or wants a different DQ rep, like Slime or Luminary or Eight.
Being the best game in the series does not equal being the favorite protagonist of the series. Sure, DQ3 was ground-breaking for it's time and shaped the genre, that's really cool and all...but what did DQ3's protag do? Is he memorable, or is the game memorable and he's just a throwaway part of it? It would seem the latter as even in the nation where the game is the second-best selling game of all time, the support for representation in Smash falls to Slime and not DQ3 protag.
Now about Slime or Luminary being a better pick, I will agree that is technically subjective, but you know what isn't subjective? The fact that adding a rep that the West recognizes as DLC will make more money than adding one they do not recognize. Slime and Luminary fit the bill on this for DQ: even if you haven't played a single DQ game, there is a good chance you've seen a Slime and can mentally tie that to DQ. It's similar to parents from the Pokemon craze (and even now) who never played a single game knowing who Pikachu or Charizard are from the fact of seeing it everywhere, though obviously Slime would have much less presence in the West than Pikachu. Luminary is also a better pick for sales because he's the protag of the thus-best-selling DQ game in the West, meaning he would be the most recognized DQ protag in the West this side of Eight, who is the protag of the second-best-selling DQ game in the West if I'm not mistaken. You REALLY need to keep in mind that just recently Smash Ultimate yet 3 million copies in Japan while the US topped that within roughly the first month or less: while Sakurai and Smash shouldn't cater to the West entirely, they should cater a bit more than they have (which they are doing better at, granted) because we will eat that **** up and pay out big bucks.
You say there are plenty of reasons, but you only listed...what, three? And it's always the same arguments: "DQ3 is so big in Japan! Sakurai loves DQ3! It's been leaked!" Have you ever noticed that the arguments do not change into anything more substantial or evolve to include new reasoning? Why is that? Because there is nothing backing this, nothing new emerging that adds interest or speculation, and it's partially the communities fault: they have been so convinced on his inclusion that, rather than having healthy discussion and pointing out interesting things, they just chant 'He's in, he's in,m he's in!' The other issues is that...nothing major around DQ3 or really DQ at all has happened that would place intrigue into the topic: Nintendo getting the definitive edition of DQXI is nothing crazy and them promoting it heavily is nothing new. Developers tweeting things about DQ means nothing because the whole nation loves DQ and nothing has been deemed NDA-breaking and no tweets about the character have been taken down. It's honestly...just uneventful. Doesn't mean we aren't getting a DQ rep, but there hasn't been as much stirrings about it...you know, minus the 'leakers'.
This is why the 'leaks' are constantly brought up by bandwagon-ers, because it's the only big stirring about DQ being in Smash, and it doesn't even have any credibility. First off, as I've said a billion times, leakers almost never have any proof that what they say is real and force us to just take their word for it. When you add in that Vergeben, the first to show us this 'List of the Seven Square Reps' not only has bias against Geno but also has bias for DQ as a whole, and you can't take what he says seriously. Also, and don't quote me, but it's rumored that Verge got the list for Xenother, and we all know he hasn't gotten **** right. This would means these two leakers have piggybacked off one another yet haven't gotten much of anything Nintendo right since the end of the Smash Base Cycle.
Then you have Tansut claiming that the character is in just because he brought up the name with his 'source' and wasn't corrected, and suddenly that means DQ3 protag is in. That is a huge leap in logic: just because someone doesn't tell you information on something doesn't mean you are right or wrong, it simply means they are withholding information from you for some reason. His source not telling him it wasn't DQ3 protag doesn't mean it IS DQ3 protag: it could be literally anyone, including other DQ reps or and other Square rep or LITERALLY ANY OTHER REP! But since Tansut assumes how he read a situation, he took it to support what he believes, thus confirmation bias. Not to mention he was super cryptic about Cloud AND got his release date incorrect, but now he's just super open about it and doesn't care about ruining the surprise? Hmm, that's not very consistent.
I'm going to go EVEN deeper to show the reasons why DQ3's protag has much less of a chance than people really understand. Now Teeb, I hope you understand that when I put things up against DQ3's protag, it's not because I hate him or anything, but because people are being illogical about his chances. I really need this to be understood by true DQ3 protag fans because, my desire for him not to be in does not stem from the character or the games, but from the ******** that tainted your support base and pushed away your outside support by being bombastic and obnoxious...but I do not hate the character and I will be happy for the true fans of the character if he gets in.
Now, to start off the issues, let's look at just the only credible leaker now, Tansut. If the list Verge had and believe all this is real and that Tansut is credible and everything he said is true (minus the character being a lock of course) than DQ3 protag has some issues to deal with.
First off, why do I call him 'DQ3 protag' and not 'Erdrick' like I used to? Well, because that isn't his/her name: it's a title, and that throws a wrench into the supposedly solid argument. As it turns out, Erdrick or Roto/Loto is a title given to multiple protagonists in the DQ series, though it's unclear how many have received this title. DQXI is nearly two years old at this point so I don't get being worried about spoilers, but it's basically proven in lore that the title of Erdrick or Roto/Loto was given to someone else before the DQ3 protag and possibly has been given to others before even this person years before DQ3 protag. Also, the iconic sword and shield that the DQ3 protag wields has it's history given to us and shone that others have wielded both way before DQ3 protag.
This person of course is Luminary, the main protag of DQXI. The person who may have wielded the shield was Edwin, who gives the shield to Luminary, and the sword IS the sword Luminary has had the entire time. Now Luminary is also titled Erdrick, and this plays into what Verge said about 'Hearing Luminary whenever Erdrick was talked about' and Tansut 'not being corrected when calling the character Erdrick.' This is because they can easily be the same character, and we could get Luminary with the armaments of Erdrick or Loto/Roto in Smash.
Now, to counter the whole 'Brave' codename thing. Everyone thinks they are SO clever because they did some googling and found out that Brave very loosely translates to hero via Yuusha, but what they don't mention is that the codename is meant to hide the identity of the character. That code is normally not supposed to be seen by the public, only by devs, but it's put into a codename that the devs understand but anyone outside that circle would not. This means that DQ being so easily tied to the codename likely does it a disservice as it's way too obvious.
You know what also they don't tell you? That LITERALLY every single Dragon Quest protagonist can and is referred to as Yuusha or Hero, which throws in a brand new and even bigger wrench than the previous issue because now if we are going by the codename being a giveaway for Dragon Quest, it's not a lock for DQ3: literally any protagonist from the series falls under this, and Luminary is the most recent plus has the spoilers going for him, meaning he REALLY is being setup for a candidate for being the DQ rep if we get one. This isn't limited to DQ though, as literally any protagonist or character or saves the world or is referred to or could be referred to as a hero that originates from Japan falls under this, which is a goddamn well of characters.
Forget how Japan polls don't have DQ3 rep on their radar (but they do have Slime, oddly enough), forget how that game in particular has little to no Western presence, forget how Sakurai has mentioned problems with creating unique swordwielders due to the limitations of focusing on wielding a sword and the number of swordwielders already present in the game, forget Sakurai mentioning that he was looking for characters with global iconic appeal (which Luminary and Slime fit much better than DQ3 protag), forget that Corrin came from a game with similar presence in the West as it hadn't launched here yet and was received poorly because they weren't a requested character on top of being part of three groups that people felt were overrepresented (of which DQ3 protag would fit two: anime-styled and swordwielder [In fairness, Luminary would fall under these two as well, but Slime comes out fine]), and forget how there are many other Square characters which much more demand for their appearance than DQ3 protag or really DQ overall (especially in the West, but also slightly in Japan). Forget the multitude of things that show that specifically DQ3 protag is not the stellar choice even IF DQ gets a rep, the few things that most of these people based their entire argument on have no weight from multiple angles.
Yet, 'Erdrick is in guys, just accept it, he's a lock!' Funnily enough, this could be more true than even they realize, but not exactly how they envision it.
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Fun fact, remember the argument brought up for Sora vs DQ3 protag in which Sora's Valor Form is called 'Brave Stance' in Japan? Welp, Yuusha also translates to 'man of valor' and the English name is Valor Form, so the name fits the bill in both Japanese and English. Not to mention that Sora also falls under being a hero in terms of his games and thus falls under Yuusha in that regard.
You know who is also a hero according to his game? A certain blue puppet boi...
There's quite a bit of Dragon Quest support and cherishing around. But notice I say Dragon Quest, not DQ3. I mean, in japan a lot of people love dq3, but quite a few of western fans are excited for Erdrick because he can easily represent dragon quest in general. Besides the latest game, a lot about being a hero in the series translates to the character fine, and most of them have been silent protagonists so it's more about the game and a hero than it is a specific personality.
I say that also because we have a lot of people who haven't played 3 but loved other games in the series and are interested not just in erdrick but in playing the third game too. It's also a pretty cool thing for them to pick erdrick because of versatility and customization (like gender & weapons). There's both personality to the game as well as being able to role play yourself in them. DQ3 is also the only game in the series where you can change your character's personality (and it even affects stats). I think a lot of people could enjoy what the game has to offer, but even so someone could potentially enjoy erdrick if they're a fan of any dragon quest game.
Slime would do higher on polls because it's practically a mascot that's in every game. But dragon quest fans like to play as the heroes, and that was kind of one sentiment in the erdrick thread. I think that If there's any hero they would pick to rep the series (that's huge in japan), they would probably go with erdrick or luminary. One's retro, the other is modern. Sakurai likes retro reps, so erdrick definitely has a good chance, not to mention if luminary is a costume then we get both and lots of people are happy ;p
I'm not going to speak on any leaks or datamines, because I just wanted to address those points, but it's fine if you think it's not a lock, and I encourage anyone to keep open and enjoy the mystery if they can. (and hopefully the reveals too).
I for one would take 5 Erdricks over a Sora. I make no qualms about despising him.
Sadly I feel like he has a good chance. The whole valor form, Sakurai and Nomura being bros... I just find him my worst nightmare. I dont want his fans to be encouraged, they already are insufferable from the ones I've encountered.
I have a recurring nightmare about Sora beating out Geno, and I cry inside. Kingdom Hearts is highly overrated to me. Its convuluted and edgy for the sake of edge plot doesnt help.
At the prospect of Sora, I'll gladly dodge the bullet and take Erdrick if my precious star boi must be barred once again painfully from entry. Erdrick is the least of our problems for Geno's inclusion with Hot Topic brown haired Cloud waiting in the wings. Just my two cents. Everyone I know aside from two of my friends obsess over Sora and are completely against Geno. So sorry for the vent :'D
O lord. I very strongly disagree with you here. Sakurai's bias is doing more bad than good, it hasn't brought anything good. Sakurai's bias is the reason why we keep getting marths and generic anime blade users. Sakurai's bias is the reason the west is being ignored. Sakurai's bias is the reason FE has more rep than LOZ(which is sad and pathetic.) Sakurai's bias keeps giving us stupid-ass joke characters that no one wants or likes.
Oh please, we know the whole world hates Piranha Plant! I sure do! Stupid Plant and its cute... cute little feeties, doing a wiggle around... watering Pikmin... trying its hardest... eternally giving the most winning smile...
Oh, who am I kidding, Plant is perfection in pure chlorophyll form.
O lord. I very strongly disagree with you here. Sakurai's bias is doing more bad than good, it hasn't brought anything good. Sakurai's bias is the reason why we keep getting marths and generic anime blade users. Sakurai's bias is the reason the west is being ignored. Sakurai's bias is the reason FE has more rep than LOZ(which is sad and pathetic.) Sakurai's bias keeps giving us stupid-*** joke characters that no one wants or likes.
In regards to character selection, I'm not sure how the west is being ignored if we got characters like Ridley (who's significantly more popular in the west, along with Metroid as a whole), Dark Samus (who was explicitly mentioned as being a popular choice in North America who would work as a clone), and K. Rool, or Little Mac, or Bayonetta (who was announced as doing extremely well in the Smash Ballot for North America and Europe - Japan was never mentioned). Even Cloud, at the time of his announcement, was assumed to be pandering to the western audience by some Japanese fans.
That last bit is something I had no idea about and is VERY fascinating to me. I could see Nintendo of Japan going for Erdrick as more of an eastern pick to balance out the more 'western' pick of Cloud, to be honest. It just fits insanely well.
O lord. I very strongly disagree with you here. Sakurai's bias is doing more bad than good, it hasn't brought anything good. Sakurai's bias is the reason why we keep getting marths and generic anime blade users. Sakurai's bias is the reason the west is being ignored. Sakurai's bias is the reason FE has more rep than LOZ(which is sad and pathetic.) Sakurai's bias keeps giving us stupid-*** joke characters that no one wants or likes.
I dont agree that it's more bad than good, but I do agree I often feel that Sakurai's bias don't mean as much as everyone thinks they do.
And if Geno isnt in this fighter pass, I sincerely believe it means even less. Or perhaps it's his want of Geno I call into question.
With Reggie having said the man has never been turned down in a request, that means he clearly didn't ask for Geno if he doesnt get in here. If he had been turned down and took the costume and glorified PNG as a consolation prize, then clearly Reggie is incorrect if not outright lying.
I sincerely dont believe Sakurai's bias counts for anything in regards to Geno, though I wish it were true, and that is because unless Geno gets in this game, it seems Sakurai has forsaken him for greener pa$tures.
That last bit is something I had no idea about and is VERY fascinating to me. I could see Nintendo of Japan going for Erdrick as more of an eastern pick to balance out the more 'western' pick of Cloud, to be honest. It just fits insanely well.
I can only think up Chrom and Richter. Maybe Isabelle or Joker too, if you stretch it. This game's newcomers felt was fairly western focused for the most part.
Ultimate is a game where a lot of patterns are being broken. Patterns just don't mean anything anymore. Joker is a pretty obvious display of that. I think the only rule we can even be solid about anymore is, "No non-video game characters." That's about it.
I dont agree that it's more bad than good, but I do agree I often feel that Sakurai's bias don't mean as much as everyone thinks they do.
And if Geno isnt in this fighter pass, I sincerely believe it means even less. Or perhaps it's his want of Geno I call into question.
With Reggie having said the man has never been turned down in a request, that means he clearly didn't ask for Geno if he doesnt get in here. If he had been turned down and took the costume and glorified PNG as a consolation prize, then clearly Reggie is incorrect if not outright lying.
I sincerely dont believe Sakurai's bias counts for anything in regards to Geno, though I wish it were true, and that is because unless Geno gets in this game, it seems Sakurai has forsaken him for greener pa$tures.
Considering Nintendo had a heavy hand in the DLC this time, Sakurai may not have even had a chance to ask for Geno. Reggie could also easily be wrong. He himself admitted he doesn't know everything that's gone down, but that he hasn't heard of a moment of Sakurai being turned down so far. Reggie not being correct on that doesn't mean that he's lying, given it has a little more nuance. Incorrect, yes, but not straight-up lying.
Ultimate is a game where a lot of patterns are being broken. Patterns just don't mean anything anymore. Joker is a pretty obvious display of that. I think the only rule we can even be solid about anymore is, "No non-video game characters." That's about it.
Considering Nintendo had a heavy hand in the DLC this time, Sakurai may not have even had a chance to ask for Geno. Reggie could also easily be wrong. He himself admitted he doesn't know everything that's gone down, but that he hasn't heard of a moment of Sakurai being turned down so far. Reggie not being correct on that doesn't mean that he's lying, given it has a little more nuance. Incorrect, yes, but not straight-up lying.
Thank you for the measured and rational response. I agree with you, and I already clarified either incorrect or lying. I'm leaning more towards he's just not properly informed or something along those lines.
I guess I'm just been on a depressive spiral about the way things have been panning out. Nothing in the rumored DLC except Banjo means anything to me if Geno isnt there...
And I still get frustrated as to why he couldn't make it into the base roster to complete the impossible trinity. Nintendo may have a hand in DLC, but I dont think they had as large an impact on base. I feel that was his best shot.
Though I'm still holding out a little hope that Square just loves DLC and perhaps did arrange something for Geno back in the day aside from the glorified PNG and mii costume.
But that hope slowly dwindle as I drift further into despair, particularly with my least favorite character in all of gaming Sora potentially taking his chance away as far as I'm concerned...
I want to think better of Sakurai and Nintendo as a whole... I'm sorry if I seem bitter. I already have chronic depression and ever since base it's just intensified. Geno and Smash mean so darn much to me. And when I see people like Laxative Chris exploiting hype and hating Geno...it just drives me insane. And other crappy channels even speculating the likes of Goku getting in before Geno...it leaves me hopeless and infuriated.
