Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Ze Diglett]

Let's be realistic: Cloud is more well known and more hype than Geno.

Not before he was revealed, he wasn't...

Crazy how public opinions change once things actually happen.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Not before he was revealed, he wasn't...

Crazy how public opinions change once things actually happen.

That's an instance of how opinions of the community vary from the public at large. Before Smash 4 DLC, in the community- full of people who thought they knew the rules for how 3rd party characters were chosen- Cloud was the default "stupid outsider choice" as he was seen as primarily a Playstation Icon.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Yep, Cloud was seen as someone like Goku. They'd might as well put Goku in right now. Geno really was a more likely choice since he was a Mario character. Why wasn't Geno in Mario Sports Mix, Hoops 3-on-3, or Fortune Street when those games had Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest characters? I guess the Mario/Final Fantasy crossovers may have helped Cloud's chances, but they used generic characters and not main characters like Cloud.

 

[domriver]

Yep, Cloud was seen as someone like Goku. They'd might as well put Goku in right now. Geno really was a more likely choice since he was a Mario character. Why wasn't Geno in Mario Sports Mix, Hoops 3-on-3, or Fortune Street when those games had Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest characters? I guess the Mario/Final Fantasy crossovers may have helped Cloud's chances, but they used generic characters and not main characters like Cloud.

Sakurai expressed desire to put him in the game wayy before Cloud. Methinks the Bosses told him "uh uh Cloud first.."

 

[Megadoomer]

Sakurai expressed desire to put him in the game wayy before Cloud. Methinks the Bosses told him "uh uh Cloud first.."

It makes sense. It's like Namco with Pac-Man - sure, Namco has a lot of characters to work with, but Pac-Man is EASILY the most recognizable one that they have. Why would they pick anyone else over Pac-Man?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Someone messaged me that the OP should be updated.

People should post things that would improve it. Share some ideas

 

[kiteinthesky]

Someone messaged me that the OP should be updated.

People should post things that would improve it. Share some ideas

I'd suggest an updated write-up of the history of the campaign to put Geno in Smash, but that would require work on my part. Work I likely won't have the time for for at least another couple of weeks. Hopefully someone else can do it.

We should also give updated reasoning for why he should be in Smash too, given present circumstances (especially Sakurai's statements and the Mii costume).

 

[Ze Diglett]

I'mma just drop this updated OP I've had sitting around for a couple weeks now; I think it'll address a lot of the issues people have with the current one (chiefly presentation and arguments for Geno's inclusion updated with more recent evidence). I'm leaving this open to community feedback, so feel free to let me know what could/should be added/revised.

Spoiler

I’m “♪!?”, but it’s hard to pronounce so…

Call me “Geno.”

The Brawl Geno Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-official-geno-thread.72298/

Who is Geno?

Geno is a deuteragonist from the Mario series who debuted in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, a classic RPG co-developed by Nintendo and Square Enix (then known as Square) for the SNES. Having descended from the shattered Star Road to retrieve its pieces scattered across the land, the star spirit known as “♪!?” comes to possess a child’s doll called Geno, a name the spirit adopts while it inhabits the doll. Shortly thereafter, he meets up with Mario and his new friend Mallow, who are both on their own quest to find and rescue Princess Peach after having been thrown from Bowser’s Keep by the very enemy Geno was sent to stop: the Smithy Gang. And so, seeing how they're fighting a common enemy, Geno joins Mario after explaining the predicament regarding the wish-granting Star Road, and goes on to play an instrumental role in saving the world from the mechanical menace of the Smithy Gang - arguably even taking on a star role by the end.

Although this is no doubt Geno’s most noteworthy appearance, it's not his only one; in 2001, five years after the release of SMRPG, he showed up in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, another Mario RPG, explaining how to play the mini-game “Star ‘Stached Smash.” Admittedly, this is hardly the most glamorous of roles for our blue boy to play, but it’s still curious that Nintendo went to the trouble of getting permission from Square to use him for what amounted to nothing more than a cute cameo. And, of course, old-school Geno supporters will never forget this:

IT STILL HURTS

So he’s a cool blue dude who had a supporting role in some obscure RPG two decades ago. Why does Geno deserve to given a shot in Smash?

I thought you’d never ask! Except I actually didn't, because this is a support thread, and it wouldn’t be much of a support thread if we didn’t go over what makes Geno a viable candidate, now, would it?

1. Fighting Potential

This is probably the most obvious thing Geno has going for him. Being in an RPG already bodes well for him as far as moves are concerned, and of Mario RPG’s stellar cast, Geno especially is no slouch in this regard. For his specials, there are more than enough viable choices in his Special Moves from Super Mario RPG, even leaving one of them leftover for a potential Final Smash: from Geno Whirl, a likely candidate for a projectile Side-B, to Geno Beam, the obvious choice for a chargeable Neutral-B, to Geno Boost, a potential boosting Down-B a la Wii Fit's Deep Breathing, to the devastating Geno Blast and Geno Flash, two easy candidates for a Final Smash or possibly an Up-/Down-B. Geno has plenty to pull from his source game as far as normals as well, using a wide variety of different weapons for his standard attack including, but not limited to shooting bullets out of his fingertips, launching his fists forward as rockets, and firing stars out of his arm cannons (pictured above in the Mii Costume splash). Yeah, needless to say, this doll’s a living weapon. Between all this and the generic punches/kicks that unarmed Smashers tend to have, Geno basically has a moveset already written for him - if you don’t believe me, just take a look at this awesome Geno mod for Project M which draws inspiration from all of these moves.

2. Uniqueness

Simply put, Geno is unique not only in character, but as a fighter as well. The man’s literally a magical star spirit within the body of a weaponized doll, which just so happens to fit right in with Smash’s ongoing motif of “toys to life” going back as far as the actual dolls in the intro cinematic to Smash 64. Furthermore, his stats in SMRPG suggest that, translated loosely into a fighting game, Geno would fit the archetype of a speedy glass cannon (or, in this case, a wooden one) with a heavy emphasis on zoning. Even with as many characters in Smash as we have now, we have yet to see high speed, zoning with a plethora of projectiles, and a glass cannon all mashed into one character. Besides, we’ve gone four Smash games now without seeing any more than 2-3 magic users, an absurdly low number for a relatively common category which Geno would be more than capable of supplementing with his many powerful magic attacks.

3. Popularity

Yeah, I know, Geno’s become sort of a meme after being left out of Smash for two games in a row now, but hear me out. Despite SMRPG’s relative “obscurity”, Geno himself has still managed to retain a cult following throughout the decades, being the second most requested third-party character for Brawl right behind the Sonic the Hedgehog, and apparently getting "loads of votes and requests for us to put him in the game" in the more recent Smash Ballot according to Sakurai - that fan pull was enough to get us the aforementioned Mii costume, notably enough. He’s practically the mascot of his own game, for Pete’s sake, with Geno often being the first character other than Mario himself that many think of when they hear the name “Super Mario RPG.” Sure, you can argue that Geno’s popularity has waned over the years and “every character has its fans,” but consider…

4. Sakurai is one of Geno’s fans

The man himself, Masahiro Sakurai, has gone on record multiple times stating that Geno was under serious consideration for not only Brawl’s roster, but Smash 4’s as well (until a certain cloud went and blocked our sunshine), making him one of very few would-be newcomers to have this distinction - specifically, he noted Geno’s moveset potential and how he would “fit absolutely perfectly into Smash.” This isn’t so much a reason why Geno should be added in, but more so why his chances aren’t nearly as rock bottom as people seem to think; people like to act like Geno’s past his prime since he narrowly missed the boat in both Brawl and Smash 4, but if anything, considering how Square Enix is officially in on the Smash party now as well as Sakurai’s persistent interest in the character, Geno’s chances in Smash have never looked better.

So, what’re you waiting for?! Pick up a signature flair and join the ♪!? Alliance!

Supplemental Geno-related Content

For those who have never had the opportunity to play Super Mario RPG (we can't blame you, it's kind of tough to get your hands on these days), watch this video for a rundown on how awesome the game is!

Geno Alt Costumes by ZaneTheDragon on deviantArt

Required hearing for all Geno supporters.
Hell, while you're at it, just go listen to SMRPG's entire OST. You'll thank me later.

Flairs of the animated and non-animated variety for your signature! (By Geno Boost and Vaanrose)

 

[Geno Boost]

Maybe include this video to the OP as well for the people who never played SMRPG and just see awesome the game is so they could support Geno in smash

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I've updated a little right now.

I'll go through "ze diglett's" post and see what information from it I can merge with the OP

Edit: and fixed some of the broken images

 

[SorrowOfAcheron]

I've somewhat read up on Geno.

I used to hate him pre-Smash 4 days (I kinda hated him until a few weeks ago actually); I thought he was the bad guy from the game he appeared in (but that's not why I hated him).

But after doing some research, he seems like a pretty likeable character.
Is he like super into justice?

I think he'd be a pretty cool addition so I SUPPORT

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I've somewhat read up on Geno.

I used to hate him pre-Smash 4 days (I kinda hated him until a few weeks ago actually); I thought he was the bad guy from the game he appeared in (but that's not why I hated him).

But after doing some research, he seems like a pretty likeable character.
Is he like super into justice?

I think he'd be a pretty cool addition so I SUPPORT

His role would be pretty similar to Trunks from the Android saga, but instead of being from the future he's from the Star Road.

 

[verysleepywolf]

Square Enix won't go for Geno. Too much to benefit from having their other iconic characters featured instead, I mean we have new DQ and KH on the horizon. I have a feeling that if Geno is upgraded from a costume, an Assist Trophy would be indulgent enough from their perspective. No idea how they thought a costume was going satisfy us.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Although Squenix is undeniably Geno's greatest barrier to entry at this point, you never really know with those guys. Their mood has been known to change on a dime; they could forgo the business end of things and actually do something cool with one of their innumerable latent IPs for once, or they could suddenly decide they're unsatisfied with Cloud's Smash showing and pull out of the deal entirely. It's tough to say. It may not be the most likely outcome for new Square content in Smash, but it's hardly out of the realm of possibility, knowing them. All I know is, even if it may not be the most "profitable" decision, Geno would satisfy a hell of a lot more people than, say, another FF character.

 

[Geno Boost]

Square Enix won't go for Geno. Too much to benefit from having their other iconic characters featured instead, I mean we have new DQ and KH on the horizon. I have a feeling that if Geno is upgraded from a costume, an Assist Trophy would be indulgent enough from their perspective. No idea how they thought a costume was going satisfy us.

If Sakurai wasn't the director I would agree but no. in order to have a 3rd party character both Sakurai and the company have to agree on and Sakurai wants Geno and square-enix allowed Geno as costume and this could be a test to see how good Geno would sell as Mii costume and if he ended up selling high Geno would easily be included as the 2nd square rep don't forget Sakurai considered adding Geno not once but twice.

Yeah I know DQ is more iconic but the difference is the SMRPG fans are trying to revive SMRPG and bring it back to life again since 22 years and Geno became the most requested square-enix character since brawl while DQ fans are silent about having a character in smash and that might because they can't decide on 1 character some people might want Slime others want Erdrick and and the list goes on...

Also don't mention KH that's up to Disney

 

[Sean Wheeler]

They should at least put Geno in a Mario sports game. Mario Sports Mix and Mario Hoops 3-on-3 had Final Fantasy characters. Fortune Street had Dragon Quest characters. Why couldn't they take advantage of the Nintendo/Square partnership for those games and make Geno a playable character? It would have been great if he was playable in Mario Kart 8.

 

[Geno Boost]

Alright so tomorrow is our chance to rate Geno chances in smash switch https://smashboards.com/threads/rate-their-chances-switch-edition-day-50-ashley.453357/

 

[Ze Diglett]

Can't wait. I'll be sure to drop Sakurai's previous statements on Geno - specifically these two - to prove to the skeptics that Geno isn't exactly a no-hoper for the next game's roster.
Speaking of, those quotes should really be in the OP somewhere. They alone speak volumes about his chances and how he's still on Sakurai's radar after all these years.

 

[kiteinthesky]

Square Enix won't go for Geno. Too much to benefit from having their other iconic characters featured instead, I mean we have new DQ and KH on the horizon. I have a feeling that if Geno is upgraded from a costume, an Assist Trophy would be indulgent enough from their perspective. No idea how they thought a costume was going satisfy us.

I've heard this argument before and I don't quite buy it. If it were true, why'd we only get Cloud and the Geno Mii Costume in Smash 4? Why no Dragon Quest, Kingdom Hearts or other Final Fantasy content? There's simply no reason why what happened in Smash 4 happened if marketing or corporate politics were the most important factor in negotiating which characters get into the roster or not.

Obviously both companies care about things like popularity, importance to gaming history, time/development constraints, and ultimately what would make the fans happy. Just my opinion here, but I feel the only reason Geno wasn't playable in 4 was probably just because Cloud got more votes than he did in the ballot. The nine Mii costumes just scream "Runner-up" to me.

 

[FamicomDisk]

I support Geno! Meant to post in this thread sooner. I've always liked Geno, and I think he'd be a great addition! I think he will show up in Smash 5 - Sakurai's mentioned how he wanted to add him already in both Brawl and Smash 4. He got a costume in 4, so this time he's got to go all the way!

For perfect faithfulness to the original game, Geno Whirl should deal 999% as long as you hit B again as it leaves the screen.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Yo It is Geno's day in RTC, come show your support.

Also I support Geno, SMRPG is a good game. And he is best character.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

I've heard this argument before and I don't quite buy it. If it were true, why'd we only get Cloud and the Geno Mii Costume in Smash 4? Why no Dragon Quest, Kingdom Hearts or other Final Fantasy content? There's simply no reason why what happened in Smash 4 happened if marketing or corporate politics were the most important factor in negotiating which characters get into the roster or not.

Obviously both companies care about things like popularity, importance to gaming history, time/development constraints, and ultimately what would make the fans happy. Just my opinion here, but I feel the only reason Geno wasn't playable in 4 was probably just because Cloud got more votes than he did in the ballot. The nine Mii costumes just scream "Runner-up" to me.

Kingdom Hearts stuff that is in the context of Square Enix properties would be Square Enix. The original content in Kingdom Hearts is all Disney.

As of more Square Enix content, I do want more. Geno being one of them, no doubt. Without his game, we really wouldn't have the Mario & Luigi games or Paper Mario games.

 

[kiteinthesky]

All right, I'm about to bash my head against the wall because of this (separate) Python project I've been trying to set up for the past two days, and because I don't want to be driven to commit harakiri with a dull butterknife, I wish to let out some of my anger and frustration on a particular issue that affects not only us Geno fans but fans of other retro characters as well...

If I hear that "They're not relevant!" argument one more time, I'm going to scream, and not in the good way. (Before we continue: relevance is colloquially defined as "having appeared in a game in the past few years") It's a terrible and unfair standard to hold most Nintendo characters to because it inherently biases roster selection in favor of newer characters according to marketability, and that's a problem. I don't want Smash to turn into Nintendo Marketing Campaign 2018. I don't want it to turn into a glorified sales pitch for games that just came out or are coming out soon. Smash is supposed to be about more than that, especially in regards to Nintendo's history (i.e. ROB, the Duck Hunt Dog, Game and Watch, the Ice Climbers), and the fact of the matter is that a lot of the contenders people really want in the games tend to be older characters. Placing relevancy in such high regard would not only leave out a lot of fan favorites including, but not limited to: Geno, Takamaru, King K. Rool, many of the Pokemon, Bandana Dee, even Toad if we count the original and not Captain Toad, characters from neglected franchises like F-Zero, even characters like Isaac from Golden Sun, the list goes on and on and that's the point...

Older characters are important too and just because a popular character hasn't appeared in a game in a long time doesn't mean they should be discounted. That's an argument that applies to a lot of the most wanted characters here, and if it was an actual consideration Nintendo had in determining who makes the roster and who does not, it could potentially lead to millions of unhappy fans. That's deeply problematic regardless of whether Geno gets in or not. Imagine what would happen if the K. Rool fans got snubbed again for example -- that's a really big group of people who'd be compelled to not buy the game if they found out only characters featured in recent games would be considered for the roster. I do not want to have to comfort them again. Seeing them sad makes me sad -- and that applies to the fanbases of the other retro contenders, up to and including the other retro Square reps (the other FF characters, Black Mage).

I don't even understand how it became widely accepted among the Smash community that relevancy was even a meaningful consideration in the first place. It's not even one of the four Sakurai originally stated: https://smashboards.com/threads/gdc-2008-meeting-masahiro-sakurai.146816/ and the rosters we've received in the past don't even reflect it. If relevancy was an issue, why'd the Duck Hunt Dog get in? Why Little Mac? Why ROB or Game and Watch? Why literally anybody from Earthbound?

The relevancy argument needs to just die.

Addendum: I worry that as Geno fans we're not doing enough to directly address this in debates. I've seen a lot of us here, for example, openly come out and say that "Yeah, Geno's not relevant but he should be in anyway..." I'm not bashing anybody for their honest opinion or anything, but conceding the point like that kind of makes our case weaker, and it's not something that we should even have to concede on to begin with. Older characters matter too.

Okay, I feel better. I needed to get that off of my chest.

 

[FamicomDisk]

I think the argument of relevancy mostly comes up because of this interview with Sakurai. When asked why the Ice Climbers weren't in Smash 4, he talked about how they wouldn't work in the 3DS version, and says, "Also, characters and series that have no plans for future releases, or a low possibility of future releases, inevitably will be considered lower priority."

I definitely agree that relevancy shouldn't be used too much - Smash is supposed to be a celebration of all aspects of Nintendo's history, after all - but the argument does stem from an official quote. Here's hoping he isn't too set on that - almost every character I want is from a dead/obscure game or franchise!

 

[kiteinthesky]

I think the argument of relevancy mostly comes up because of this interview with Sakurai. When asked why the Ice Climbers weren't in Smash 4, he talked about how they wouldn't work in the 3DS version, and says, "Also, characters and series that have no plans for future releases, or a low possibility of future releases, inevitably will be considered lower priority."

I definitely agree that relevancy shouldn't be used too much - Smash is supposed to be a celebration of all aspects of Nintendo's history, after all - but the argument does stem from an official quote. Here's hoping he isn't too set on that - almost every character I want is from an dead/obscure game or franchise!

Hrm. That does not bode well. What if they really do turn Smash into a glorified marketing campaign in that case? That's not why people like Smash. That's not what we want. That doesn't make it an enjoyable game. A large part of the appeal is in seeing memorable retro characters from our childhood get another day in the limelight and for their importance to gaming and to the fans that grew up with them to be recognized.

That quote of Sakurai's is deeply troubling to hear, especially since Nintendo just got a new, relatively younger president a few days ago. That might be indicative of a push to make Smash a marketing tool instead of a showcase of the games we all love.

Okay, now I feel like crap again.

I guess we as Geno fans will have to push to get Geno included in Mario Party, Kart and Sports games to meet that requirement, which is just as well since I imagine that's what everyone here wanted in the first place, I take it?

 

[FamicomDisk]

Hrm. That does not bode well. What if they really do turn Smash into a glorified marketing campaign in that case? That's not why people like Smash. That's not what we want. That doesn't make it an enjoyable game. A large part of the appeal is in seeing memorable retro characters from our childhood get another day in the limelight and for their importance to gaming and to the fans that grew up with them to be recognized.

That quote of Sakurai's is deeply troubling to hear, especially since Nintendo just got a new, relatively younger president a few days ago. That might be indicative of a push to make Smash a marketing tool instead of a showcase of the games we all love.

Okay, now I feel like crap again.

Sorry! Wasn't trying to make you discouraged. I don't think Smash's character selections are going to be based on marketing though - obscure characters have never really been the main focus in Smash, and we'll likely see a mix as always.

Keep in mind Geno has a much better shot than most other retro characters. In Brawl, Sakurai said he wanted to add Geno, but it couldn't happen. Since then...

-Square Enix worked with Nintendo on Smash
-Square Enix added a character to Smash with Cloud
-Geno actually got a Mii costume, which Sakurai said was because he wanted to add him as a fighter, but put that so Geno fans would have something
-The Smash Ballot happened, which they said would be used as reference for future games. If Geno did well, then he has a good shot

The biggest hurdle in Geno's inclusion was that Square Enix owns him. With them cooperating with Smash 4, and Sakurai clearly wanting Geno in the game, he's honestly got a very good shot this time around!

 

[kiteinthesky]

Sorry! Wasn't trying to make you discouraged.

Keep in mind Geno has a much better shot than most other retro characters. In Brawl, Sakurai said he wanted to add Geno, but it couldn't happen. Since then...

-Square Enix worked with Nintendo on Smash
-Square Enix added a character to Smash with Cloud
-Geno actually got a Mii costume, which Sakurai said was because he wanted to add him as a fighter, but put that so Geno fans would have something

The biggest hurdle in Geno's inclusion was that Square Enix owns him. With them cooperating with Smash 4, and Sakurai clearly wanting Geno in the game, he's honestly got a very good shot this time around!

Oh, no no no, no need to apologize; I'm just salty, hungry, tired of this stupid script I've hit a wall on and just generally upset at life in general, that's all. I needed to vent.

I'm not complaining just for us Geno fans either but on the behalf of everybody who wants a retro character in Smash -- which means just about everybody, both in and out of the Smash community, who see Smash as a showcase of beloved characters from every point in Nintendo's history as it rightly should be.

It genuinely makes me worry not just for our chances but for the quality of the next Smash and future iterations as a whole. No one wants just newer characters who are clearly in for just marketing reasons. The backlash at Corrin's inclusion should've clued Nintendo in on that, the fact that they'll do it again notwithstanding... just imagine a roster where the majority of characters were of those qualities, with hardly a retro or classic newcomer to speak of. Just imagine how terrible of a game that would be. Who would even want to play it?

It's the principle of the thing that bothers me. I want characters from every iteration of Nintendo's history, not solely newer ones and not solely older ones. There are boatloads of worthy retro franchises that deserve the spotlight just as there are newer franchises that deserve it. There needs to be a balance.

 

[Ze Diglett]

All right, I'm about to bash my head against the wall because of this (separate) Python project I've been trying to set up for the past two days, and because I don't want to be driven to commit harakiri with a dull butterknife, I wish to let out some of my anger and frustration on a particular issue that affects not only us Geno fans but fans of other retro characters as well...

If I hear that "They're not relevant!" argument one more time, I'm going to scream, and not in the good way. (Before we continue: relevance is colloquially defined as "having appeared in a game in the past few years") It's a terrible and unfair standard to hold most Nintendo characters to because it inherently biases roster selection in favor of newer characters according to marketability, and that's a problem. I don't want Smash to turn into Nintendo Marketing Campaign 2018. I don't want it to turn into a glorified sales pitch for games that just came out or are coming out soon. Smash is supposed to be about more than that, especially in regards to Nintendo's history (i.e. ROB, the Duck Hunt Dog, Game and Watch, the Ice Climbers), and the fact of the matter is that a lot of the contenders people really want in the games tend to be older characters. Placing relevancy in such high regard would not only leave out a lot of fan favorites including, but not limited to: Geno, Takamaru, King K. Rool, many of the Pokemon, Bandana Dee, even Toad if we count the original and not Captain Toad, characters from neglected franchises like F-Zero, even characters like Isaac from Golden Sun, the list goes on and on and that's the point...

Older characters are important too and just because a popular character hasn't appeared in a game in a long time doesn't mean they should be discounted. That's an argument that applies to a lot of the most wanted characters here, and if it was an actual consideration Nintendo had in determining who makes the roster and who does not, it could potentially lead to millions of unhappy fans. That's deeply problematic regardless of whether Geno gets in or not. Imagine what would happen if the K. Rool fans got snubbed again for example -- that's a really big group of people who'd be compelled to not buy the game if they found out only characters featured in recent games would be considered for the roster. I do not want to have to comfort them again. Seeing them sad makes me sad -- and that applies to the fanbases of the other retro contenders, up to and including the other retro Square reps (the other FF characters, Black Mage).

I don't even understand how it became widely accepted among the Smash community that relevancy was even a meaningful consideration in the first place. It's not even one of the four Sakurai originally stated: https://smashboards.com/threads/gdc-2008-meeting-masahiro-sakurai.146816/ and the rosters we've received in the past don't even reflect it. If relevancy was an issue, why'd the Duck Hunt Dog get in? Why Little Mac? Why ROB or Game and Watch? Why literally anybody from Earthbound?

The relevancy argument needs to just die.

Addendum: I worry that as Geno fans we're not doing enough to directly address this in debates. I've seen a lot of us here, for example, openly come out and say that "Yeah, Geno's not relevant but he should be in anyway..." I'm not bashing anybody for their honest opinion or anything, but conceding the point like that kind of makes our case weaker, and it's not something that we should even have to concede on to begin with. Older characters matter too.

Okay, I feel better. I needed to get that off of my chest.

This, this, this times a thousand. I am so god damn sick of people pushing so-called "relevancy" above all else when it comes to speculation. Since when has Smash been about solely representing Nintendo's most hip, current, and best-selling franchises and characters? We have an entire genre of characters at this point who lack all three of those descriptors; they're called Retros, and for some reason, these relevance-hogs seem perfectly fine with them sticking around - presumably just because every game has them, so they fit nicely within their checklist of what series "need" characters in the next Smash. (But more on that later...)

What people need to consider is that moveset potential and realizability, believe it or not, do need to be considered before pure relevancy when designing characters for a fighting game. (Big shocker there.) This is a big part of why I think (and sincerely hope) that Captain Toad isn't as much of a lock as people seem to think, despite being the Mario series' current "flavor of the month," so to speak. I've heard people say Geno being in Smash would send a "bad message" that any overrated/irrelevant S.O.B. can get in (and thus steal "slots" from other characters, which is another thing that I think is just bull****) if people scream about them loud enough; to the contrary, I think Captain Toad being given a full moveset (which includes jumping, mind you, something the Captain can't do that less relevant characters can manage) would send an even worse message that even if a character has absolutely zero fighting potential in their own damn game, they'll be intentionally misrepresented to hell and back just to be added to Smash as long as they're the most "relevant" choice for their series. It's all about playing it safe and checking boxes with these people. Metroid, a series about isolation, doesn't have enough characters in Smash? Better throw in Ridley to fill that gap. Zelda, a series with about three consistently recurring characters, hasn't gotten a new rep since Brawl? Get Impa up in here, we can make up a moveset for her, right? Mario, a series with countless RPGs and spinoffs to pull interesting characters from, needs a new character? Just grab that Toad with a headlamp who can't jump, because he's R E L E V A N T ! (Did you mean: forced?) This mindset is exactly how we got Rosalina in the last game, who farts out galaxies because **** it, she's from a game about space, and throws her "beloved children" around like ragdolls for her own self-defense, because that's how you properly represent a character, right?

I could not agree more with your sentiment about Smash becoming about marketing. I don't want that at all, and I don't think anyone really does. Once that happens, we might as well just stop speculating altogether, because the newcomers of every consecutive Smash game will just be whatever swath of new characters has managed to crop up across Nintendo's various series since the last - plus maybe a new retro and/or third-party rep just to keep with tradition at this point. If Nintendo manages to force a recurring Cucco with a silly hat into the next few mainline Zelda games, even if they never once exhibit any sort of fighting ability whatsoever (or at least not anything other characters can't do), everyone and their dog will be rallying behind them for Smash solely because they'll be the most relevant choice bar the ones we already have. Gotta represent those Cuccos, amirite? What's that, moveset potential and popularity? The hell do you think this is, some sort of fighting game??

TL;DR, (I know this TL;DR is another entire paragraph, but bear with me) I really don't want Smash to become a "members-only" club for exclusively the hottest new franchises and the most relevant characters from existing franchises. That's how we lost a DLC slot to an advertisement for a Fire Emblem game, and look how that turned out... The worst part is, I don't even really know when this "a character has to be relevant to be in Smash" mentality came into the public eye like it has, despite the myriad of examples currently in Smash's roster who prove otherwise. (Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, any of the Retros, Sheik, either of the Earthbound boys, Wii Fit Trainer, Little Mac, the list goes on.) Nowadays, however, every speculator who thinks they're worth their literal and figurative salt is rattling off **** like "Lucario's relevance has passed, I think this two-time Smash veteran will be cut," and "Yeah, Geno's popular, but he's a one-off from an old RPG, so I don't think this character who's been at the top of Sakurai's personal wishlist for at least a decade now has a remote chance." God forbid anyone give trivial things like moveset potential or uniqueness a second thought when it comes to speculation. Honest to God, this epidemic is making me sick of speculation in general, and I've only just gotten into it with this upcoming Smash game. Thankfully, though, there is a silver lining to all this: I don't think Sakurai will succumb to this disease anytime soon. It just isn't how he makes his rosters, and anyone who thinks it is simply hasn't been paying attention; if it were, then he wouldn't have dropped Chrom for being too similar to the other FE characters, or added Wii Fit Trainer period. I obviously have no insider info on how this sort of thing is decided, but I suggest that we all just keep our chins up and let this relevancy fad pass, because, as I'm certain this next game will prove, that's all it is: a fad.

 

[Geno Boost]

I agree with all of you but you know what I dislike in the smash community? When they call a non relevant character a "joke character" because most of the characters I want in smash are not relevant and it's hard for me to get excited or interested for a character that I see daily in every video game because I got bored from seeing them so I want Sakurai to surprise me.

Also I noticed that most of people top 10 characters lists are mostly about the new characters that Nintendo has created or characters that Nintendo are pushing for marketing and the choices are 85% the same as hundreds of other lists and not the characters they loved in their childhood and they are gone now, I think we DO NEED a balance between the relevant and the non relevant characters when adding newcomers.

 

[kiteinthesky]

I've heard people say Geno being in Smash would send a "bad message" that any overrated/irrelevant S.O.B. can get in (and thus "steal slots" from other characters, which is another thing that I think is just bull****)

Which I don't understand. Geno is the flagship character from one of the most important and beloved classic RPGs in Nintendo's history. Paper Mario and the Mario & Luigi games wouldn't exist without Super Mario RPG. If anything a lot of the other contenders people compare to Geno would arguably be more of a wasted slot than they argue he would be by their own standard, so how could they possibly be so arrogant as to assume they have the right to label certain characters as wastes of a slot?

I really hope nobody, either among us or among the other character fanbases, becomes that aggressive and petty this iteration or in the future. All of the contenders have qualities that make them worthy of being in Smash, otherwise no one would argue for them in the first place. No one has any business saying any character is a waste of a slot.

 

[FamicomDisk]

I really hope nobody, either among us or among the other character fanbases, becomes that aggressive and petty this iteration or in the future. All of the contenders have qualities that make them worthy of being in Smash, otherwise no one would argue for them in the first place. No one has any business saying any character is a waste of a slot.

I agree with this 100%! I think it helps when you see someone else passionate about a given character - before I joined Smashboards, I heard someone mention how Arle from PuyoPuyo would be a fun inclusion in the next game, and I had no idea how that would work. A puzzle game character? What would she use to attack?

Then I joined the site and saw a support thread for her, decided to look through it, and she's since become a character that I'm very interested in seeing, even as someone who's barely played the games she's in! Almost every character can be a good pick for Smash, and sometimes seeing fans of the character discuss them and gush about what they could do in Smash can help people see their merits.

I hope that people who think a character is a waste of a slot at least go and see why that character's fans want them in.

 

[smash puffle]

I will support my main man Geno all the way! I've been supporting him since the Brawl days, and I'm still keeping my support!

 

[TerminalMontage]

I've been supporting him since Brawl too it's been a long journey.

 

[Fenriraga]

I didn't get to truely experience Mario RPG until it showed up on the Wii's Virtual Console, but that came out the same year as Brawl anyway, and I wanted more Geno the moment I finished the game.

Also, here's an interesting discussion topic: what if we finally did get some Mario RPG love... But it was Mallow, and not Geno? How would you react?

I mean, obviously it'll be Geno if we do get RPG representation, but what would your genuine thoughts be?

 

[SEGAGameBoy]

Never played Super Mario RPG, but I definitely support this. Please add me to the supporters.

 

[Geno Boost]

I didn't get to truely experience Mario RPG until it showed up on the Wii's Virtual Console, but that came out the same year as Brawl anyway, and I wanted more Geno the moment I finished the game.

Also, here's an interesting discussion topic: what if we finally did get some Mario RPG love... But it was Mallow, and not Geno? How would you react?

I mean, obviously it'll be Geno if we do get RPG representation, but what would your genuine thoughts be?

Confused but very happy at the same time
after all getting a SMRPG content in any game feels like a miracle

 

[TerminalMontage]

I'd be pretty confused too, but it would still be neat. For the most part it feels like Nintendo acts like the game never happened.

 

[Fenriraga]

I'd be pretty confused too, but it would still be neat. For the most part it feels like Nintendo acts like the game never happened.

I feel that's really more Square's fault than it is Nintendo. I think Geno was omitted from the Superstar Saga remake because a remake like that really didn't have the budget to pay the license to use him. Square is notorious for being difficult to work with on things like this, so Nintendo likely avoids it unless Square itself comes forward with it, like Square developing stuff like 3 on 3 and Sports Mix and Fortune Street. They seem to like to focus more on their franchises, because Geno isn't really advertising anything that that can still make money off of besides VC re-releases. FF15 has only been getting as much crossover love as it has because the director is cool with it. That's just my own theory, of course. Still wish they'd use him more, they're literally just sitting on him and doing nothing.

Of course, a Smash title has more than enough of a budget for both Cloud and Geno. So here's to hoping.

 

[CroonerMike]

Ah yeah! Geno is my most wanted smash bros character.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Good news, boyos! Daddy Nintendo actually recognized SMRPG's anniversary today, and even mentioned Geno by name! It's not much, but it's good to know they at least care enough to give our boy a shoutout on his birthday. (Oh, and Mallow too, I guess.)