Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[OptimisticStrifer]

I can get behind that math but those predictions were pretty off the wall. But Geno/ Sirfetch'd isnt a bad draw.

Besides from Birdo, that wouldn't be a terrible pass. Pretty interesting variety of characters, most who would offer cool things and bring some amount of hype.

 

[DaxMasterix]

Like I said long time ago, such as the fact Nintendo don't try to add KRool to newer Mario games after his Smash entry is still much criticized. It is same if same thing happens to Geno.

Excuse me what, There's people criticizing the K.Rool addition and that's a fact? Excuse me but, In which timeline are you in?

 

[Polarthief]

You seen to misunderstand, the controversies around the current Smash fighters still exist. Like I said long time ago, such as the fact Nintendo don't try to add KRool to newer Mario games after his Smash entry is still much criticized. It is same if same thing happens to Geno.

Apparently I do misunderstand because I thought you were giving arguments for "why Geno isn't likely".

And we're talking about the character's whose franchise is still running so Banjo, Duck or Simon is hardly part of the topic.

See above.

Wait, do you agree with this or not?

I was agreeing. It would be stupid to pay out the ass for a super-tiny cameo in the remake. There was no need for it, but it doesn't reflect Geno's chances in any way, shape, or form. Whether he was in or not, it doesn't change anything.

And like said, what disappoint fans is that Geno still doesn't get much progress in returning to new games, the whole argument has always been whether the games really reflect on fans demand and wishes.

They do for sure to some extent or we wouldn't have B-K and KKR for sure. Dark Samus? Forget about it.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Excuse me what, There's people criticizing the K.Rool addition and that's a fact? Excuse me but, In which timeline are you in?

I think some people don’t like him, but they seem to be a minority. I’ve only seen a few at most, maybe only one even, heh, but there could be more.

I don’t think Nintendo and Sakurai would care anyway, though. As long as a character still has a large amount of people who like them, they likely wouldn’t care about loud haters.

 

[Giga Kaiju]

If the whole deal with the virus it's what's causing the delay for a direct, then it is understandable. Maybe the reason why the there's no update from Ninty is that the situation is too intimate/recent/regrettable/tragic to address it and hence, no news from them. At this point, we're just waiting for better news. On both topics.

Unless we get an update from NINTENDO anyway somehow, eventually.

.

 

[MissingGlitch]

If the whole deal with the virus it's what's causing the delay for a direct, then it is understandable. Maybe the reason why the there's no update from Ninty is that the situation is too intimate/recent/regrettable/tragic to address it and hence, no news from them. At this point, we're just waiting for better news. On both topics.

Unless we get an update from NINTENDO anyway somehow, eventually.

.

I think this is the more likely scenario. Nintendo didn't want to have a presentation when this virus is raging over there. Just like when the tsunami hit.

 

[Luis27]

https://youtu.be/iu6BSjUgxlY

There it is, C O M E D I A S I N T E T I C A

 

[Hot_N_Tasty]

Besides from Birdo, that wouldn't be a terrible pass. Pretty interesting variety of characters, most who would offer cool things and bring some amount of hype.

Hopefully, they would be well received if they all got in. I personally have never played Prince of Persia nor Danganropa, so I just don't know either one very well.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

See, it's good **** like this that keeps me from going completely insane.

Not only are you supportive without really knowing the character personally, but you understand his situation and you bridge the gap with us on getting a character that we love. On top of that, you recognize how some of these characters in the game already are insane picks that anyone with a greedy mind like EA or Activision/Blizzard or GameFreak wouldn't ever bother with such a thing because it's what fans want in spite of what they tend to say with their wallets. It's what the fans say with their hearts and minds. K. Rool honestly is a huge deal and there were so many naysayers for many reasons, and a lot of them were solid because, as much as I hate to say it since I love K. Rool and grew up with old DK, he had become forgotten by the industry.

Thank you very much for this.


Hold on, did you just say evidence means different things to different people? No, evidence is solid facts that prove whether something is true or false. What you are referring to is more circumstantial evidence, in which it COULD be evidence or it could not be, since it's not air-tight solid.

See guys, people like this exist who will find holes (or poke holes when there aren't ones to be found, whether the holes mean anything or not) in arguments that are not air-tight. THIS is why I mention that if speculation gets nutty or drives you crazy, remember the base facts that are 100% true that are in Geno's favor. Remember that we have so much going for us without all the questionable stuff.

As for you SpiritOfRuin and others like @Dorayaki I will hit you with the stuff that you cannot debate with.

~Ultimate has been catering to the Smash fanbase more than any other in the series. From longstanding requests () to newer requests () to not cutting a single character to returning all the previously cut characters to all the stages and all the music to all the modes to including a story mode again. Ever since the base game, this game has been giving to it's fans, and mostly to fans who have been around since the beginning too. DLC hasn't changed this either, as both and are longstanding requests while was a newer one. In fact, the fact that we are getting DLC is more proof of fan catering as fans of Smash would never want the new content to end. Thus, we have undeniable proof of fan catering and favoring older fans...and where does Geno fall in line here? That's right: longstanding fan request, and the final really big one to be honest. This is in Geno's favor, no debates.

~Sakurai has gone on record to state that ever since Brawl, he's tried to get Geno in, but it hasn't worked out. Brawl days was likely due to Square and Nintendo still not being on the best terms. Smash 4 days was likely due to time constraints and Square wanting to push FF and knowing that was overall the better choice. Ultimate's base I wouldn't be surprised if there was an attempt but that is speculation...what isn't speculation is that we still have more character coming to the game as we speak and Sakurai spoke to us in a breakdown that he wants to add more worlds into Smash to celebrate gaming as well as fufill more fan requests. This is clearly all in Geno's favor as now both Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest are no longer in his way, which makes him the next big picks since Sora is a Disney character and every other Square character that is requested is much less requested than him and has been requested for a much shorter time then him.

~We have all pretty much come to accept that if a costume of your character shows up without that character already being announced, they are likely not coming into the game. This is once of the few "fan rules" or an actual pattern that has yet to be broken since the introduction of Mii Costumes, much like Assist Trophies. It can be broken, but it has yet to be broken. However, in a strange twist of fate, Geno's costume has yet to return. Many people are arguing over why and the circumstances around it, but the simple facts are that A. It hasn't returned, B. They had three perfect opportunities to have it return, what with a Square-focused character and two 'dumps' in which big franchises got both new and returning costumes, yet it didn't happen and C. Negotiations for the costume would have been done already with Geno's likeness due to his Spirit and icon, and his costume is just free money for Square, so there is no reason for it to have not returned yet if they planned on it returning. All of these things are facts that cannot be debated about and they all support Geno's chances, and even some of the speculation like each costume line-up having two returning costumes but Wave 2 didn't or how Wave 2 oddly has fewer costumes than any other wave, tings that are facts but don't directly support Geno are strong as well. His costume not returning thus far is clearly in his favor.

These three solid bits of evidence are all you need in Geno's court. You cannot debate that these things may or may not exist, and you cannot argue that these things may or may not be in Geno's favor.

LET'S GO GENOBROS~!

I'm not really looking to debate tbh just stating my take on things which by my own admission could be flawed and has been wrong before. I really just don't have time for real debating, but I am doing my best to keep up with the thread and read all rebuttals as I respect y'all's opinions, perspectives, and personalities. This is a very well written and concise response and I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Also I read your response too Polarthief and appreciate your input as well. I'm not responding to you because as I'll say later in this post I get easily overwhelmed trying to respond to many different points and this post is more focused and easier for me to respond to with there being three main points to discuss. I also see that we are simply not understanding each other's points and it's just not going to go anywhere so there's not much point. I will, however, be discussing how I may have mucked up the term "evidence" myself tho so stay tuned for me taking responsibility for improper word usage.

I agree with these three points as well. Initially I wasn't as swayed by Sakurai's comment about wanting Geno in Smash but I've thought about it more and have some new thoughts. Clearly something(s) prevented Geno from making it into Smash despite Sakurai having tried to include him before to no avail. Sakurai has also mentioned many other games and it's clear that he has a love for a wide variety of games, but he hasn't specifically addressed many games in the context of Smash inclusion (that have yet to be included) to my knowledge. While I believe the vision for Smash is periodically changing and I worry that Geno fit Sakurai's vision in Brawl, but for whatever reason his vision no longer includes Geno in Smash, I don't think there's any reason to believe that since Sakurai hasn't made any claims about his vision of Smash that reflect this sentiment. Then again, Mach Rider and other scrapped characters were also once part of Sakurai's vision and we've seen nothing of them since so who knows? I can't imagine the circumstances behind Geno's failure to appear being similar to other scrapped characters tho. This is favorable for Geno, however, if what Sakurai says is to be trusted then this could have very little influence on Geno's chances since Nintendo is choosing DLC and Nintendo hasn't come out and been like yeah we want Geno in Smash. I get that there are an odd number of nods to SMRPG from Nintendo lately, but honestly Nintendo is just odd all the time and not everything means x is going to be in Smash. So I think it's favorable for Geno but not evidence that he's likely for inclusion in Ultimates DLC. With the ambiguity of how characters are being chosen for DLC and how it clearly is different parameters from base game, I cannot consider this as evidence or as making Geno more likely than other characters.

Fan demand is essentially the entire crux of Geno's likelihood. Without it we couldn't entertain ourselves for 2400+ pages or organize things like the letter writing campaign and Geno certainly wouldn't be appearing in Smash articles and YouTube videos to the degree that he does. This is our pillar. While this is evidence backing Geno's likelihood it's not really totally unique to Geno, however, I do think it is the strongest factor backing him and has gotten other characters in as we've seen already with K Rool and Banjo and let's face it not many other characters are a long standing request like Geno. This is Geno getting in Smash 101. If Geno gets in Smash it's because the impact he had on the fanbase was big enough to keep him alive and well despite being neglected by his divorced-yet-trying-things-out-again parents. I do think even from an outside perspective that Geno is viewed as a huge fan request for Smash at least within the fanbase that pays attention to the goings on of Smash things. My friends who pay no attention to it know who Geno is but would not be aware of his huge fan demand were it not for me. I realize thats a poor sample size tho so this remains our best evidence for Geno being likely for Smash Ultimate DLC.

As for the Mii costume...obviously it's in Geno's favor that it hasn't arrived. And yes I am aware of all the circumstances in which through some bizarre twist, we managed to avoid disappointment at the sight of the retuning costume. I'll gladly take the costume over just the spirit and I've said his costume could still come (never know with Nintendo), but yes the fact it remains nowhere to be seen is good news and it's evidence that he COULD be coming but is not evidence unique to him with other missing Mii costumes that remain MIA as well. I guess you're right that it doesnt mean it's not evidence tho especially considering the dictionary definition of "evidence" basically being a body of facts that support a belief. So I concede on this point.

I was never saying these things weren't in Geno's favor just that they don't make me see him as any more likely than other characters. In this endeavour, however, I appear to have confused myself with terminology and I was looking for facts that indisputably point to Geno being an incredibly likely addition in Smash Ultimate DLC instead of seeing evidence as a body of facts that support a belief. But I'm still a doubting Thomas and the facts we have are not enough for me. I need to see promotions will happen plain and simple. I believe they CAN happen. I believe the team CAN do whatever they want under Nintendo's discretion of course. I just don't fully believe that they will. I don't see enough evidence in how DLC has played out to show me that they will. We will see if FP2 shakes things up and if (honestly probably when) it changes things up I'll be singing a different tune. But for now I'm playing it safe and not assuming DLC will be any different than it has been. Nothing wrong with people thinking FP2 will be different I'm just holding off on making that assumption. Does that make better sense of where I'm coming from? I'm really trying to explain it as best I can but am also lazy...er I mean become easily overwhelmed when trying to respond to a lot of different points and clearly express my thoughts in a cohesive and easily digestible format for others. I am scatterbrained all the time and certainly not devoting all my time and brain power to these matters so I apologize if I've continued to make a fool of myself (but I probably won't stop since I'm here for the long haul).

 

[Polarthief]

Hopefully, they would be well received if they all got in. I personally have never played Prince of Persia nor Danganropa, so I just don't know either one very well.

Ehhhhh... (INCOMING SPOILERS FOR THE VIDEO)

- Birdo would be a neat echo. Also a female-ish rep that (may) please people who really care about representation/identity stuff but w/e.
- PoP, no. Just, no. I do not see that going well. This would be as bad/worse than Byleth.
- SirFetch'd is... okay. Better than Urshifu for sure, but I still think Toxtricity is the best overall pick for Gen 8.
- MONOKUMA/MONOMI THOUGH THAT'D BE PRETTY HYPE! It'll never happen though.
- Ryo, see PoP. Same deal, worth than Byleth.
- Geno HELL YEAH.

Overall you'd have 2 very negative picks, 1 okay pick but could definitely be better, 1 that would have people scratching their heads, but she's (he's?) one of the few missing Mario characters, 1 that would have people be either very hype or asking "who the **** is this bear and rabbit?", and 1 that's been requested since Melee and would be like Ridley/KKR/Banjo. Math or no math, I don't see this happening. Besides Geno, the only one that seems potentially plausible is Birdo, but even then, I don't see them charging a normal DLC pack for an echo. Remember that the 6th character is *NOT* a 'bonus' by any means. This FP was $5 more expensive than the first FP so it's not like we're getting a bonus and not paying for it (unlike Piranha Plant who was free for a short period when the game came out). Also SirFetch'd could happen but I think they'd pick a starter, Urshifu, Obstagoon, or Toxtricity over them. Not to mention, the "math" for SirFetch'd could easily be any Male/Female Pokemon, such as Toxtricity. SirFetch'd had decent popularity before the game launched, but Toxtricity, Wooloo, and starters definitely overtake them. I feel like even Yamper gets more love. Obstagoon also in the same boat as SirFetch'd, albeit a bit higher up the totem pole. Toxtricity still gets much love and many memes on a daily basis.

 

[Polarthief]

Guys, I'm sorry, I'm intentionally double-posting because I don't feel like this one should be tacked on to the previous post, so forgive this sin I am committing.

In this endeavour, however, I appear to have confused myself with terminology and I was looking for facts that indisputably point to Geno being an incredibly likely addition in Smash Ultimate DLC instead of seeing evidence as a body of facts that support a belief.

I was never saying these things weren't in Geno's favor just that they don't make me see him as any more likely than other characters.

But the thing is, you'll never see this, ever, unless Nintendo/Sakurai directly tell us X character is coming. I even said the evidence will never be 100%, because it virtually isn't until the character is officially confirmed. The evidence is definitely circumstantial, but as I said before, if you're going to look at patterns, as well as fanrules (which are 100% based on patterns until they're broken), the pattern regarding music being copyright taken down and then getting Smash content has happened multiple times now. The 2 songs being taken down are a massive piece of evidence, especially given it's 2 songs, EXACTLY 2 songs, which all the other SE characters also have exactly 2 songs (Cloud and each of the DQ Heroes). The best thing being that there could even be more songs getting in with Geno that simply weren't taken down, but that's beside the point. Point is, these 2 very specific songs were taken down.

Not only that but it's the 2 songs out of the soundtrack of 60 that I would not only associate with Geno: Beware the Forest Mushrooms (the location where you follow/first meet him) and Battle Against an Armed Boss (the song that's literally playing when you first meet him and also the song that only plays against Smithy's main guys), but it's also songs that I personally think go well with Smash at the same time. I don't think you could really pick better songs that have to match both criteria. Idk about you but Let's Play 'Geno' doesn't really do too well for Smash and neither does The Starlight's Flower Shines on Star Hill. You could go with other songs that work for Smash fights better than Beware the Forest Mushrooms, such as Fight Against a Somewhat Stronger Monster, Fight Against Kajioh, or the second phase version: Fight Against Kajioh, Who Liikes Transforming, but those don't fit into Geno as well (though the Smithy boss songs aren't too bad of picks for Geno, they only play at the end of the game and I still think these two songs fit very well). Instead, only these 2 specific songs, out of the soundtrack of 60, were taken down.

While yes this is circumstantial, it 100% points to something SMRPG-related, and I can't think of a single reason for this besides something Smash-related, unless SMRPG is getting a remake (HAHA FAT CHANCE). Also, they certainly would take down either the entire soundtrack or none of it if SMRPG is getting on NSO (and my money's on taking down 0 songs for that because I don't see why you would need to). Someone at Nintendo could have went and manually took down these songs for no reason, but then why would they leave the rest of the soundtrack up? That makes absolutely no sense. If the rest of the soundtrack was taken down, then yeah it could be Nintendo being *****, but again, they didn't do that, which is what makes this so intriguing. If you can come up with any reason that they would specifically take down these 2 songs, and it's for a reason other than Geno is becoming playable, by all means I am all ears and totally up to discuss the possibilities. But, I'm coming up completely blank and can't think of anything other than playable or premium Mii costume with 2 songs instead of 1, which is also questionable in its own right because you could easily make it just Beware the Forest Mushrooms and it would probably fit better overall.

Finally, I just want to point out again that none of the other front-runner characters have this kind of evidence. For the record, that's not a strike against them since it's not like Geno's so big that he has to take up all 6 slots of FP2 (I mean if Banjo & Kazooie can fit into one DLC pack, so can Geno). There are 5 more packs for characters, and they will have to be filled, obviously. Virtually any (video game) character has the possibility of getting in, even costumed characters in FP1, it's totally possible. But there are some like Sans and Cuphead who just got costumes in the 3rd and 5th DLC packs (respectively) that have an incredibly low (but not 0%) chance of getting in, characters like Dante or Master Chief who have a fair chance, and characters like Geno who have a very high (but not 100%) chance.

Now I've talked to hell and back regarding these song takedowns, and if you want to keep thinking it's not pointing to something about Geno, after this entire post and my previous ones, that's totally fine. You're free to come up with whatever opinions and conclusions you want. I'm not here to be right, hell I could totally be wrong about this and there's something else regarding the takedowns that I'm not seeing. I just want to point out that you're asking me to look at patterns but to also ignore this one that points to Geno while also being fairly substantial (but of course not 100% concrete) evidence in his favor, and I simply can't do that.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

Ehhhhh... (INCOMING SPOILERS FOR THE VIDEO)

- Birdo would be a neat echo. Also a female-ish rep that (may) please people who really care about representation/identity stuff but w/e.
- PoP, no. Just, no. I do not see that going well. This would be as bad/worse than Byleth.
- SirFetch'd is... okay. Better than Urshifu for sure, but I still think Toxtricity is the best overall pick for Gen 8.
- MONOKUMA/MONOMI THOUGH THAT'D BE PRETTY HYPE! It'll never happen though.
- Ryo, see PoP. Same deal, worth than Byleth.
- Geno HELL YEAH.

Overall you'd have 2 very negative picks, 1 okay pick but could definitely be better, 1 that would have people scratching their heads, but she's (he's?) one of the few missing Mario characters, 1 that would have people be either very hype or asking "who the **** is this bear and rabbit?", and 1 that's been requested since Melee and would be like Ridley/KKR/Banjo. Math or no math, I don't see this happening. Besides Geno, the only one that seems potentially plausible is Birdo, but even then, I don't see them charging a normal DLC pack for an echo. Remember that the 6th character is *NOT* a 'bonus' by any means. This FP was $5 more expensive than the first FP so it's not like we're getting a bonus and not paying for it (unlike Piranha Plant who was free for a short period when the game came out). Also SirFetch'd could happen but I think they'd pick a starter, Urshifu, Obstagoon, or Toxtricity over them. Not to mention, the "math" for SirFetch'd could easily be any Male/Female Pokemon, such as Toxtricity. SirFetch'd had decent popularity before the game launched, but Toxtricity, Wooloo, and starters definitely overtake them. I feel like even Yamper gets more love. Obstagoon also in the same boat as SirFetch'd, albeit a bit higher up the totem pole. Toxtricity still gets much love and many memes on a daily basis.

I don't think Ryo or PoP would get hate as bad or worse then byleth tbh, because a lot of the hate for them stems from the overabundance of representation FE has with little variety.

 

[HudU]

Hello everyone! Scrolled through the last 10 pages, and good to hear we have a bit more evidence on our side with Mandy. (Though Geno was heard as fighter 5 and assumed to be coming later), Im pretty confident he will be coming.)

Also Fatmanonice was saying fighter 6 was more secret than Byleth, could it be another first party character?, or is it definitely 3rd party/crash. I know Mandy's source heard crash, but I wonder if it is closely related to Nintendo/by a company good at hiding leaks. And considering Fatman's source is predicting Geno for #6, I don't see that to be an unlikely possibility, but I feel like Geno will be #7 or #8.

I don't know who I think #6 will be. Here are my thoughts though.
-Geno has a pretty good chance at being in the first 3, I think.
-Geno could be #6, or so could Crash, which would also boost Geno's chances
-I still have hope. I hope he comes soon, I don't want to wait another year, but I will if it means he joins.

(Sorry to bring this up again out of nowhere, Just wanted to express my thoughts.)

 

[Polarthief]

I don't think Ryo or PoP would get hate as bad or worse then byleth tbh, because a lot of the hate for them stems from the overabundance of representation FE has with little variety.

Totally possible. I was very off-base when it came to Crash's popularity, I could be for out-of-nowhere picks like these too, but I do think they would be negatively received. Terry was a very resounding "eh", with the "more DLC on the way" and Sans being much more well-received announcements. These would be that but way worse.

Hello everyone! Scrolled through the last 10 pages, and good to hear we have a bit more evidence on our side with Mandy.

I'd take it with a grain of salt though.

I don't know who I think #6 will be. Here are my thoughts though.

Yeah, good thoughts overall, definitely agree.

(Sorry to bring this up again out of nowhere, Just wanted to express my thoughts.)

No need to apologize and hell it at least related to Geno, unlike a ton of (even my own) posts on here on a daily basis. We tend to get OT pretty quick at times because of tangents that usually start on Geno.

 

[T2by4]

https://youtu.be/46F7fRxqN7k

I really hope this will be our year fellas. I can't imagine waiting as long as some of you have. We have so much support at this point from so many peeps, this has to be it. We can't accept being a costume again, we gotta make it this time.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I'm baaaaaack. I'm sure you all talked about it already.

But congrats on Nintendo willing to edit spirit battles depending on what DLC you have.

Welcome back MissingGlitch .

You seen to misunderstand, the controversies around the current Smash fighters still exist. Like I said long time ago, such as the fact Nintendo don't try to add KRool to newer Mario games after his Smash entry is still much criticized. It is same if same thing happens to Geno.

And we're talking about the character's whose franchise is still running so Banjo, Duck or Simon is hardly part of the topic.

K. Rool has only been back for less than a year and a half so it's too soon to say Nintendo is still ignoring him reappearing in the Mario spin offs. And to be frank, K. Rool's name was reference in New Donk City in Super Mario Odyssey:

Give it time, K. Rool will have his day again in the Mario spin offs. K. Rool is honestly a lock for Mario Kart 9 in my eyes due to his Smash popularity and this.

 

[ForsakenM]

So im going to play devils advocate, because most people on this board will see some of those points as debatable.

So I think your first point is probably the most sound, but it ignores other patterns as well. They are all fan requests, but each of those characters play major reoccurring roles in the series they were introduced in. They are also part of series that continue to grow. At this point they are basically a different caliber of character than Geno is. While I do think the demand for Geno is there, he is basically equivalent to a character like some of the allies you pick up in paper Mario.


Despite Cloud and Hero already being in the game Geno still has a few competitors within Square. Nier and Tomb Raider with the latter being one of Squares biggest money makers. Although I wouldn’t say the character Lara Croft is recognizable as much as Mario, the series itself is and is pretty much a cultural icon. Hopefully it’s 100% up to Nintendo, because honestly I can’t see square pushing for anything SMRPG or Kingdom Hearts.

As far as the costume thing goes, I could be wrong but I was under the assumption the chocobo costume is missing as well? That’s the biggest flaw in that logic. While A,B,C, could be outcomes, the chocobo costume being missing in addition to opens up another option to take. Another Square character, and those 2 costumes returning.

While I’m all for believing maybe his lore might play a role in a spirit upgrade, his situation isn’t really different from a character like Tails and Knuckles who received costumes later despite already having spirits in the game.

Basically at this point the whole argument is based off the notion that Nintendo won’t disappoint its fans. Which in their defense, no matter which characters they chose there will be disappointment and joy.

Either way i do have to agree with Spiritofruin, “evidence” if you even want to call it that , is twisted to fit a lot of biased views on this board.

First off, I appreciate you playing the role, but I encourage you to bring me better arguments.

As for Part #1, you are downplaying Geno while what people in the powerscaling community would call '****ing' the long-requested characters. This term is used when someone tries to push a character to their absolute max and generally pushes a character out of their actual realm of power and ability. In this case, you are overvaluing Ridley and K. Rool while undervaluing Geno. For example, you are saying Geno isn't integral to SMRPG like K. Rool is to the DK series or Ridley is to the Metroid series, and in that you would be wrong.

Everyone keeps labeling Geno as a 'side character that joins the party' but frankly, a side character in an RPG that allows multiple party members is a character that has little dialogue and rarely affects the main plot of the game...and as a result, often times you will find them to not be a playable character. Geno is much more than this: he's a playable character, relevant the entire game due to speed and mixed damage as well as Geno Boost, has a whole town and encounter area as well as a boss fight that centers around him, he has a huge introduction in that boss fight, and is the sole reason why Mario, the player and anyone else they engage with have any idea on what the hell is going on. He drives the plot and has interactions with those around him, albeit that we should have had more.

I've never played nor watched much of Paper Mario, so forgive me for my lack of knowledge, but does EVERY single ally you pick up in the game have that much relevance to the entire game? I've seen party characters that offer less in RPGs with a grander scale, he is definitely not a side character. As for playing reoccurring roles, not only is this a bit unfair as it's hard to return as a character when your series never gets any more installments, but both Ridley and K. Rool have fallen into the same camp of not only having their series have moments of dying out but also not returning with a revitalization of the series. Ridley is currently stuck with the series being dead (hopefully not for much longer) and K. Rool has yet to appear in a new DK game (ideally the next one he will), which throw a bit of a wrench into your 'continuing to grow' argument. Thus, the only thing you can argue is that Geno is a more severe example of this, which I would agree with you on, but that has no relevance to the fact that he is a long-requested fan favorite and the biggest of the few left.

Part #2, and first off I'd like to acknowledge that you didn't even list Sora as a competitor, which I congratulate you on. I used to think Sora was direct competition but frankly, that decision is up to Disney and would make him fall under a different category entirely. However, I'm glad you brought up other Square reps because I was just defeating this argument with my friend this afternoon. So, let's list them!

• Lara Croft - Reboot has different design from iconic, iconic design is controversial, no longer near as relevant or popular, less demand than Geno.
• 2B - Rebooted series that has yet to have more investment, controversial design, is less iconic and has less demand than Lara.
• Sephiroth - Series already represented with Cloud, hard to balance while sticking true to the character, Square would likely push for a more recent FF rep next time around, music licensing hell, less demand than Geno.
• Neku - Series is on life support and very niche, not many know about it or him, less demand than Geno.
• Crono - Dead franchise (sadly), even more niche than Neku, less demand than Geno.
• Anyone else you could come up with - Less demand than Geno.

Now I will give you many of the points here are speculative as I was merely mentioning possible reasons, however you may notice the pattern on the one part that is a fact here: They all have less fan demand than Geno does.

And that is the kicker here: not a single one of them passes him in fan demand. In fact, the only one who does is Sora in an overall sense, and as we mentioned he is not direct competition. Thus, with the giant walls of FF and DQ torn down, there is no single character who is truly competition for Geno not only in terms of the company that owns him, but I would argue he is fighting and winning for the top spot for fan demand against the likes of Waluigi, Crash and Dante. Keep this fact in mind: multiple people who are names in the Smash community for both their careers and their reactions are expecting Geno.

Read this again to let this sink in: Big names in the community expect Geno so much that they are convinced he's a lock.

You don't accomplish this by not being talked about or being recently requested: this is something that happens from having a massive following and fan base that has been asking for you for over two decades.

As for Part #3, I feel like this argument doesn't even matter. The Chocobo Mii Hat being missing doesn't go for or against Geno really, and arguing that it makes him more likely to return as a costume with another rep is just as speculative as if I were to say 'Or it could return with Geno as playable instead!' because you are commenting on the idea of something happening and not things we know to be solid and true. What is solid and true is that his costume as yet to return, and since his costume returning without his announcement is essentially a death sentence, this is in his favor by default. When you add in the fact that they would have done negotiations for the costume around the time of the base game if it were to return due to having Geno's likeness as a Spirit and an icon (and that it makes no sense to go back to Square about it later when they could do it right then and there), that they had three perfect opportunities to reveal the costume, and that Square gets free money from a copy/pasta and Square likes money...these are all facts that are proven to have happened that push even more in Geno's favor.

Also, I like how you didn't talk about Sakurai. I respect this, as a lot of people try to pull this "He didn't make it happen twice, so he obviously doesn't care anymore/it won't happen" or "Sakurai probably doesn't care anymore/didn't really mean it" which is not only disrespectful and insulting to Sakurai but also a weak as hell argument. You don't know how the man feels or thinks, and we have documented proof that flattens this argument. It's basically a 'What If' argument. "What If Sakurai doesn't care about Geno anymore?" Well, what if the universe were to implode on the second Tuesday of January 2027? That's how relevant that kind of argument really is.

 

[YsDisciple]

In regards to the video predicting Vol. 2 with the use of math, I will say that after I saw it, why yes I agree with Geno's presence in it, but not the placement. As for the other characters; I'm VERY curious if said choices came as a result of using the same mathematical method, or if some other factor was considered. Personally, although Birdo could be a plausible choice, the fact that it would be an echo fighter seems unlikely, if we continue the line from the first fighters pass that no echoes would be included. As for the other four, hmm... I'd switch in the following:

- Prince of Persia = would switch-in for either Crash, or Rayman
- Sirfetch'd = I do feel we might be getting a mandatory 8th gen Pokémon rep so, this one could stay, or it could also be either Rillaboom to complete the starter trio (with Greninja and Incineroar), or Urshifu to promote the Sw/Sh expansions.
- Monokuma = not too sure about this one. Could stay, or maybe switch-in for another character. Being from Spike Chunsoft, it could be switched-in by another character from a yet-to-be represented third party. Adol Christin from Nihon Falcom maybe?
- Ryo = would switch-in for another character from an already represented publisher, like Dante (Capcom).

In the end, what do I know? We'll have to wait until Nintendo finally decides to shows us what's in store for Vol. 2.

 

[xNovaNebulax]

Hello everyone! Scrolled through the last 10 pages, and good to hear we have a bit more evidence on our side with Mandy. (Though Geno was heard as fighter 5 and assumed to be coming later), Im pretty confident he will be coming.)

Also Fatmanonice was saying fighter 6 was more secret than Byleth, could it be another first party character?, or is it definitely 3rd party/crash. I know Mandy's source heard crash, but I wonder if it is closely related to Nintendo/by a company good at hiding leaks. And considering Fatman's source is predicting Geno for #6, I don't see that to be an unlikely possibility, but I feel like Geno will be #7 or #8.

I don't know who I think #6 will be. Here are my thoughts though.
-Geno has a pretty good chance at being in the first 3, I think.
-Geno could be #6, or so could Crash, which would also boost Geno's chances
-I still have hope. I hope he comes soon, I don't want to wait another year, but I will if it means he joins.

(Sorry to bring this up again out of nowhere, Just wanted to express my thoughts.)

hehe, geno boost :3

 

[RetrogamerMax]

hehe, geno boost :3

Geno kick!
Geno punch!
Geno elbow!
Geno crush!
Geno blade!
Geno scream!
Geno run!
Geno backbreaker!
Geno clothesline!
Geno headbutt!
Geno choke!
Geno chop!

 

[MissingGlitch]

Welcome back MissingGlitch MissingGlitch .

Heyhey! I'm still taking a break because all this speculation drove me insane. Also cause it made time go so slowly. I really just wanted to drop by and say hey here and give a small congratulations for another fan rule broken.

Though I am still active in the Wright thread.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

That video lost me when it said Birdo.

 

[Polarthief]

Geno kick!
Geno punch!
Geno elbow!
Geno crush!
Geno blade!
Geno scream!
Geno run!
Geno backbreaker!
Geno clothesline!
Geno headbutt!
Geno choke!
Geno chop!

Geno Turn-The-Opponent-Into-Swiss-Cheese-With-Bullets!

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I hope no one still thinks there is gonna be an animal crossing direct next week

 

[MisterMike]

I hope no one still thinks there is gonna be an animal crossing direct next week

Heheh, yeah... not expecting a thing...

 

[xNovaNebulax]

Geno Turn-The-Opponent-Into-Swiss-Cheese-With-Bullets!

and who can forget
geNO means no

 

[KoopaSaki]

At this point I’m gonna check out and just expect a direct in March. They did it two years ago so it wouldn’t surprise me. I think E3 may be our time given that’s how it was for Banjo last year. Just gonna say that I’m taking a break from speculation for a bit.

 

[valkiriforce]

What I really like about Geno's relevance in the Smash community is if you search anything related to Smash speculation and the fighter's pass (or fighter's pass 2 in this case) you'll most likely run into Geno one way or another. That's pretty significant.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I hope no one still thinks there is gonna be an animal crossing direct next week

At this point, true or not, I feel bad for Emily Rogers. It's another situation where possibly a non-hint got blasted and going to be taken to extremes whether it's right or wrong. Seeing how things went down yesterday, I feel tired for her and further reminds why I openly resent Twitter.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

At this point, true or not, I feel bad for Emily Rogers. It's another situation where possibly a non-hint got blasted and going to be taken to extremes whether it's right or wrong. Seeing how things went down yesterday, I feel tired for her and further reminds why I openly resent Twitter.

I dont even think she is an insider anymore, Sabi just decied to piggyback like the baby opossum they are

 

[Fatmanonice]

I dont even think she is an insider anymore, Sabi just decied to piggyback like the baby oppsom they

Even if she still is, the whole thing was just super rude and why I don't want to be a "celebrity" with this ****. I'm not trying to be a soothsayer, I'm just trying to spur conversation and help make these dry spells not suck as much. To once again quote my NoA ambassador friend from 2018, "this isn't fun, why would anyone think this is fun?" Yeah, it's cool knowing stuff but it's also kind of a pain in the ass because you have people who wring their hands over your every mistep or, on the opposite side of things, think everything you say is some kind of a cryptic hint. I stay in it because, at this point, it's intrinsic and based on promises I made to this fanbase almost two decades ago. It's weirdly stressful and people are unironically terrible over the pettiest of things but, again, the Geno fanbase matters to me as something that goes beyond a video game and ties into the inherent value of each of its members. In short, a good Capt'n doesn't abandon his crew and, to quote the Bernie Sanders' campaign, "not me, us" because this has been a collective effort and I'm just a dude with more visibility because of insider info and wild ass theories.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I know Emily asked the dude wanting a direct this week if he was an Animal Crossing fan, so it seemed like a hint to me, but idk. Don’t really care if they’re right or wrong, Zippo already said the 20th while mentioning an AC Direct as well and I really don’t care personally except I do like AC and I want Pikmin news; stop depriving the fans of Piktamin U, Nintendo.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Heheh, yeah... not expecting a thing...
View attachment 262602

Oh pf ok you got me, That gave me a good laugh

Even if she still is, the whole thing was thing was just super rude and why I don't want to be a "celebrity" with this ****. I'm not trying to be a soothsayer, I'm just trying to spur conversation and help make these dry spells not suck as much. To once again quote my NoA ambassador friend from 2018, "this isn't fun, why would anyone think this is fun?" Yeah, it's cool knowing stuff but it's also kind of a pain in the ass because you have people who wring their hands over your every mistep or, on the opposite side of things, think everything you say is some kind of a cryptic hint. I stay in it because, at this point, it's intrinsic and based on promises I made to this fanbase almost two decades ago. It's weirdly stressful and people are unironically terrible over the pettiest of things but, again, the Geno fanbase matters to me as something that goes beyond a video game and ties into the inherent value of each of its members. In short, a good Capt'n doesn't abandon his crew and, to quote the Bernie Sanders' campaign, "not me, us" because this has been a collective effort and I'm just a dude with more visibility because of insider info and wild ass theories.

Thats true. What I was mostly saying was it wasnt right for sabi to do that considering she jumped off the "insider ship" a while ago but here is the baby possum, coming to cling to her asking a friend a question like she hinted at something when she really hinted at nothing.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

So when was the last huge online poll and can someone give me a link to it? I'm curious to see who is mainly reigning surprime right now besides our doll boi.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I know Emily asked the dude wanting a direct next (this) week if he was an Animal Crossing fan, so it seemed like a hint to me, but idk. Don’t really care if they’re right or wrong, Zippo already said the 20th while mentioning an AC Direct as well and I really don’t care personally except I want Pikmin news.

Yeah, Zippo said that awhile ago but I feel bad for him too because I don't think he likes this newfound fame and I don't think he ever wanted this much attention. Tried to ask if he was alright on Discord but I think he preemptively blocked me so I couldn't formally apologize for how things played out. Maaaaaaaaaaaan, I just want people to be cool to each other... I feel bad because I shared that info because I wanted to defend Mandycan because people were dunking on the guy and, as a survivor of multiple public hangings, I hate seeing it. Then it was like "man, that was just my speculation that I talked about with Zippo; why did you make that public" and then realized that not everyone is cool with DMs being made public even if they don't contain anything confidential. It's just one of those "Fatman Ruins Everything" moments because I wanted to defend someone I believed was being treated wrong but ironically did it by doing something technically unethical depending on perspective. Fun stuff.

 

[AdamBel731]

I hope no one still thinks there is gonna be an animal crossing direct next week

I mean, at this point I've just stopped trying to guess when one will be. But still, people can think that if they want. Same thing with if people have hope for a general Direct.

(Also, not judging, but why do you keep changing your profile pic? I think you've had at least like 4-5 different ones in the past week. Again not being rude, just kinda wondering.)

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Man this half year drought **** with the general Direct has gotten really annoying and boring. I miss the base speculation days when there was more to talk about and more people were here. Those days were more fun than the DLC days.

 

[Vector Victor]

I wonder why people want to leak. Seeing all the headaches it brings, I can't see how the positives outweigh it. You'll get hate no matter you do: either because you get stuff wrong (especially now with Nintendo's lackluster updates), or because you get stuff right but eventually people get sick of seeing your name come up so often.

But if Geno gets in as full playable, I bet all insider dealings/talk will be done in this thread.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I wonder why people want to leak. Seeing all the headaches it brings, I can't see how the positives outweigh it. You'll get hate no matter you do: either because you get stuff wrong (especially now with Nintendo's lackluster updates), or because you get stuff right but eventually people get sick of seeing your name come up so often.

But if Geno gets in as full playable, I bet all insider dealings/talk will be done in this thread.

Certain people leak because they want attention and glory from the community. It's simple as that. It's why you see sometimes the most well known credible leakers like Verge and Sabi backpedaling time to time just so they won't look bad.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Also, not judging, but why do you keep changing your profile pic? I think you've had at least like 4-5 different ones in the past week. Again not being rude, just kinda wondering.)

Oh dont worry lol I have a lot of pictures for icons. I change them alot. As of now, my icon folder has about 260 pictures