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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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Icewolff92

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The pokemon and Mario characters generally tend to be distinct enough in appearance, flavor and fighting style (echoes notwithstanding) that they're far less likely to draw the ire of the crowd purely based on their franchise. It doesn't help that the FE picks generally tend to be the flavor of the month from the new game, as opposed to older ones people have requested like lyn, or the black knight. (Though pokemon has also fallen into this trap, and people are similarly displeased with it)
So? It still doesn¨t change the fact that people acts like Fire Emblem are 95% of the roster which is what makes that thing so bloody frustrating.
 
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So? It still doesn¨t change the fact that people acts like Fire Emblem are 95% of the roster which is what makes that thing so bloody frustrating.
Fire Emblem would of gotten less hate if they were represented much better.
 

Icewolff92

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If you can't see by now how the context for the FE character criticism is inherently different than if people started complaining about Pokemon or Mario I'm not sure what to tell you.
Se comment that I wrote to Dynamic Warlock and you get my (and many other FE fans) frustration about this whole "This should be called Super Fire Emblem Bros" now.

Fire Emblem would of gotten less hate if they were represented much better.
Knowing the Smash fanbase, I highly doubt it. Less hate sure, but I don¨t it would be that much
 
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Fatmanonice

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This is actually a really good point. I mean, who else within SE would compete with Geno? 2B? Sephiroth? Sora? All of them are sword users! For the sake of variety alone, this is a pretty positive angle in Geno's favor. He's the only one I can think of that uses guns and projectiles.
Like I said earlier, it doesn't help that Cloud and Hero are sword users too. If you count all of Hero's ALTs, Ultimate technically already has 5 Square Enix swordsmen. Technically both are magic sword users that can change their stats too. Plus they're both humans. They both technically have spikey hair too.... Huh... Plus Cloud was designed by Nomura... Um...
 

MattX20

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Gone into this in the past but my basic answer is that Geno's a "toy in the attic." He's a third party Mario character that neither company can use without the involvement of the other. On this note, Nintendo and Square have technically worked together with Geno six times in the last 17 years so it's a well worn path. Just like the SNES Classic, it's just another easy venue for money. Geno's low risk and high reward because SMRPG has proven itself sales wise several times over.
Exactly. There's no downside for either company involved, and all to gain for getting Geno into Smash. Nintendo of Japan may unfortunately consider Golden Sun a dead franchise, but not one person there would say Mario is a dead one. Geno is easy money and an easy fan favorite pick to get given they already got the rights to use him and Mallow as spirits.
 

Datboigeno

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Se comment that I wrote to Dynamic Warlock and you get my (and many other FE fans) frustration about this whole "This should be called Super Fire Emblem Bros" now.
Cool, but then reread Dynamic Worlok Dynamic Worlok 's comment about the difference and you'll get why it's a different situation and why the criticism is more justifiable than if people were to ***** about Geno being "another Mario rep" as if it were at all on the same level. There's a reason why Piranha Plant for all of the hate it received was criticized for being a character no one really asked for rather than just being a Mario rep.
 

Polarthief

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Yep and he uses elemental magic attacks too. You know, like lightning and fire. Lara Croft is not a sword user but I don’t think she would that flashy as a character compared to Snake.
Weird how I forgot about Crono, despite actively watching Vinny play the + Romhack.

Also for the record, he only has Lightning/Light elements. No fire/ice or anything. Mostly physical based for sure though. Lightning (2) and Luminaire are his only elemental attacks, though he has some combinations that use his lightning element as well. He can also heal (through combinations only like Marle's Aura + his Cyclone) or revive fallen allies.

That said, I'd be willing to bet if SE weren't *****, we'd have a Crono AT or costume by now.
 
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Firox

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Fire Emblem would of gotten less hate if they were represented much better.
Agreed. There are so many colorful characters they could have added that WEREN'T generic swordfighters. You've got:

-Micaiah (Light Mage from Radiant Dawn)
-Sothe (Rogue/Thief/Assassin from Radiant Dawn)
-Any of the Laguz from Radiant Dawn/Path of Radiance (Laguz are human-animal shape shifters. Imagine a character that could seamlessly transform into a lion or dragon)
-Ashera (Enemy Goddess from Radiant Dawn)
-Cordelia (Pegasus rider/Lancer from Awakening)
-ANY OF THE LEGIT MAGE CHARACTERS (Soren, Tharja, etc.)
-Maybe an archer class fighter with a knife for some close-quarters mix-ups
-Maybe an iron knuckles user for a brawler archetype

Bottom line is, Fire Emblem isn't bashed on for being Fire Emblem. It's just the general lack of creativity and uniqueness in most of their movesets. That said, I personally applaud Robin for the introduction of a pseudo-mage archetype and the uniqueness of Corrin and Byleth despite their hard-core shill status.
 

Dynamic Worlok

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Urshifu = Riot at the shill, crappier, Pangoro
Toxtricity or Obstagoon = <3
Intelleon or Cinderace = Acceptable
Rillaboom = Groaning Acceptance (re: I wouldn't like it, but at least it's not Urshifu)
Either one of the doggos = Wouldn't happen because that would show one version as superior, which is why all Pokémon are from both versions.

I'm so annoyed that Urshifu has a legitimate chance of getting in and cucking over Tox :(
So? It still doesn¨t change the fact that people acts like Fire Emblem are 95% of the roster which is what makes that thing so bloody frustrating.
The issue lies in the relative similarity of the characters present. There's a reason the whole "marth clone" stereotype exists

Urshifu = Riot at the shill, crappier, Pangoro
Toxtricity or Obstagoon = <3
Intelleon or Cinderace = Acceptable
Rillaboom = Groaning Acceptance (re: I wouldn't like it, but at least it's not Urshifu)
Either one of the doggos = Wouldn't happen because that would show one version as superior, which is why all Pokémon are from both versions.

I'm so annoyed that Urshifu has a legitimate chance of getting in and cucking over Tox :(
What makes you so sure it'll be Urshifu?
 

Polarthief

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What makes you so sure it'll be Urshifu?
I'm not saying it *will* be, but he has a pretty good chance considering his DLC is coming up and it would shill that and the base game while base mons wouldn't advertise the DLC as well.

I'd prefer no Pokémon rep personally, but if we have to get one, I really do hope it'll be Tox since I feel like he best represents a lot of the rucus that went on in the game, plus he's popular, unique, and would bring a whole slew of interesting things Sakurai could do with him.
 
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cosmicB

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Gone into this in the past but my basic answer is that Geno's a "toy in the attic." He's a third party Mario character that neither company can use without the involvement of the other. On this note, Nintendo and Square have technically worked together with Geno six times in the last 17 years so it's a well worn path. Just like the SNES Classic, it's just another easy venue for money. Geno's low risk and high reward because SMRPG has proven itself sales wise several times over.
Has it? Do we have sales numbers for SMRPG re-releases?

Edit: This also doesn't really answer my question. Low effort re-releases is 100% not the same as a designed from the ground up character in the zero-sum game that is Ult DLC. That is 100% NOT low risk/high reward, no character is.
 
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Icewolff92

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Cool, but then reread Dynamic Worlok Dynamic Worlok 's comment about the difference and you'll get why it's a different situation and why the criticism is more justifiable than if people were to ***** about Geno being "another Mario rep" as if it were at all on the same level. There's a reason why Piranha Plant for all of the hate it received was criticized for being a character no one really asked for rather than just being a Mario rep.
I¨m not arguing about the different flavors of the Mario Bros/Pokemon character, nor do I think they have too many because of how big the franchise has. I was just saying that the Super Fire Emblem Bros comment is equally annoying because it does not make any sense as well.

The issue lies in the relative similarity of the characters present. There's a reason the whole "marth clone" stereotype exists
Of course, there is an issue with the representation of Fire Emblem characters. We Fire Emblem fans are far more annoyed by it than the general smash fanbase. But that still doesn¨t make validity to "Super Fire Emblem Bros" comment concidering they don¨t have the most amount of characters. Give the franchise more than Mario and Pokemon, and it makes some sense in terms of complaints
 
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TriggerX

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Idk, Sakurai has already commented on the amount of “sword users” in the past. I doubt we’ll be seeing less of them any time soon.

If Square has another rep and they are trying to deviate from that then the Kh3 version of Sora, Geno, and Lara Croft would probably be their best choices to avoid more swords in the game.
Can’t really comment on characters like Crono or 2B since I’m not too familiar with their games, although I do like their designs.
 
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MattX20

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I'm not saying it *will* be, but he has a pretty good chance considering his DLC is coming up and it would shill that and the base game while base mons wouldn't advertise the DLC as well.

I'd prefer no Pokémon rep personally, but if we have to get one, I really do hope it'll be Tox since I feel like he best represents a lot of the rucus that went on in the game, plus he's popular, unique, and would bring a whole slew of interesting things Sakurai could do with him.
Frankly, if we do get a promotional pick, it won't be Pokemon related given the recent spirit board event. We're more likely to see the Ring Fit Adventure protagonist.
 

Podunk_boy

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Hello Geno thread!!, I wanted to ask you all something, if Geno gets in how should Kirby look like?
(I'm dumb and don't understand how to post images so ill post a link)

A or B?
 

cosmicB

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I mean, it did well enough to be on the Wii, Wii U, and the SNES Classic, including the European version. The SNES Classic pushed over 5 million units alone. Even the original SNES version sold several million so the game has never had a problem selling.
That's extrapolation, not confirmation. As I said in my edit, low effort re-releases and ports aren't necessarily indicative of anything, especially when we're including a multiple games in 1 example like the SNES classic which indicates even less. SMRPG isn't the first dormant property that's been re-released a million times that never stopped being dormant even in the context of Nintendo. If the potential profits outweigh the cost of exporting a rom file and making sure it doesn't crash the system, then there's no reason not to do it even with shaky rights nonsense.

Without actual sales figures, we can't make any guesses on what internal perception is in regards to the IP and the viability of making it visible again via a character in Smash. Unless of course one of your guys could hint at something related to sales figures, I'm going to remain skeptical on this.

Edit: Also, using SNES Classic sales figures is misleading as it implies everything on it has equal weight when it comes to getting to that figure when that's impossible to know and implies Kirby Dream Course is historically just as important as Link to the Past. If anything, I'd put Star Fox 2 as a big driving force behind its sales.
 
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Datboigeno

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That's extrapolation, not confirmation. As I said in my edit, low effort re-releases and ports aren't necessarily indicative of anything, especially when we're including a multiple games in 1 example like the SNES classic which indicates even less. SMRPG isn't the first dormant property that's been re-released a million times that never stopped being dormant even in the context of Nintendo. If the potential profits outweigh the cost of exporting a rom file and making sure it doesn't crash the system, then there's no reason not to do it even with shaky rights nonsense.

Without actual sales figures, we can't make any guesses on what internal perception is in regards to the IP and the viability of making it visible again via a character in Smash. Unless of course one of your guys could hint at something related to sales figures, I'm going to remain skeptical on this.

Edit: Also, using SNES Classic sales figures is misleading as it implies everything on it has equal weight when it comes to getting to that figure when that's impossible to know and implies Kirby Dream Course is historically just as important as Link to the Past. If anything, I'd put Star Fox 2 as the driving force behind its sales.
Internally we know that they specifically discussed the character of Geno several years ago, and publicly they've shown increased attention to the character through social media and whatnot which is more attention than they've shown the game since it was released in the mid 90s. Also out of all the SE characters they could have negotiated for as a costume in Smash 4 they negotiated for a side character from a decades old game. Nintendo knows people like Geno enough to try to sell the character's likeness for a profit. As far as the SNES Classic goes they didn't just throw it in there randomly. It was added because it was a popular game that they felt would garner sales. They wouldn't have gone through all the negotiations with SE about rights and whatnot to include it if they didn't think it would make a difference.

I don't see why it's so hard to see why they'd consider him viable any more than any other dormant yet highly fan requested character. Nintendo's support for King K. Rool and content specifically related to the original Donkey Kong Country games was even less publicly visible in the years leading up to his announcement in SSBU (his last appearance was Mario Super Sluggers in 2008) but he still got in anyway.
 
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pinshadow

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Sakurai being aware about too many swords is kinda meaningless since its clear since Smash 4 that every sword character has either had a huge gimmick or used other stuff with their sword, excluding Chrom because he's an echo and Robin was literally chosen over him anyway because he wasn't unique enough, which just proves my point.

Robin : Tomes/Levin Sword, resource managment
Shulk : Monado Arts
Cloud : Limit
Corrin : Dragon Transformations
Hero : MP/Crits/Command Select
Byleth : Other Houses Weapons, sword is also a whip anyway

I think its obvious that if Sakurai is asked to do another sword character he'll be able to give them a gimmick to make them unique.
 

cosmicB

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I don't see why it's so hard to see why they'd consider him viable any more than any other dormant yet highly fan requested character. Nintendo's support for King K. Rool and content specifically related to the original Donkey Kong Country games was even less publicly visible in the years leading up to his announcement in SSBU (his last appearance was Mario Super Sluggers in 2008) but he still got in anyway.
This is what I mean though. There's a very big difference between a base roster character and one you have to pay $5.99 for. There's much less of a risk honoring fan requests for dormant characters when there's no extra charge. Let's assume K.Rool was not in the base roster and is still being asked for as DLC in some pockets of the internet. I'm not convinced Nintendo would go for it even if Sakurai would want to.

The one counter-argument to this is Banjo-Kazooie, but even they aren't that crazy of one. They were basically the mascot of Rare when the company was associated with Nintendo and their legacy consists of being one of the flagship 3D platformer franchises of its time while simultaneously representing a company-wide schism that happened not long after. It's basically THE symbolic pick of the roster with a "you're finally home, Banjo" kind of feeling.

While Geno does have the schism part down (Square's final Nintendo game before very shaky relations prevented any cross-promotion until Crystal Chronicles), there's nothing about him that represents repaired relations nor is his very limited legacy of a single game constantly re-released and a later-removed cameo viewed as such.

The Mii costume that has yet to appear is the last bit of hope I'm holding onto that my perception of all this is false.
 

Datboigeno

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This is what I mean though. There's a very big difference between a base roster character and one you have to pay $5.99 for. There's much less of a risk honoring fan requests for dormant characters when there's no extra charge. Let's assume K.Rool was not in the base roster and is still being asked for as DLC in some pockets of the internet. I'm not convinced Nintendo would go for it even if Sakurai would want to.

The one counter-argument to this is Banjo-Kazooie, but even they aren't that crazy of one. They were basically the mascot of Rare when the company was associated with Nintendo and their legacy consists of being one of the flagship 3D platformer franchises of its time while simultaneously representing a company-wide schism that happened not long after. It's basically THE symbolic pick of the roster with a "you're finally home, Banjo" kind of feeling.

While Geno does have the schism part down (Square's final Nintendo game before very shaky relations prevented any cross-promotion until Crystal Chronicles), there's nothing about him that represents repaired relations nor is his very limited legacy of a single game constantly re-released and a later-removed cameo viewed as such.

The Mii costume that has yet to appear is the last bit of hope I'm holding onto that my perception of all this is false.
The fact of the matter is that Banjo-Kazooie was as much of a "never ever" fan request as Geno. Hindsight is 20/20 and people like to claim that he was such an obvious choice for Nintendo/Sakurai, but if you've been around Smash speculation for over a year you'd know that a ton of people were discounting Banjo's chances because he was a "irrelevant character from a dead series". One can claim that Geno represents the once close relationship between Nintendo and SE, and also as a representative for SMRPG also represents the Mario RPG series that's been going on for the past 20 years and split off into the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi titles. SE and Nintendo have actually repaired relations on a level that Nintendo and Rare have not. It totally makes sense for Nintendo to bring Geno back to celebrate this.
 
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Firox

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The fact of the matter is that Banjo-Kazooie was as much of a "never ever" fan request as Geno. Hindsight is 20/20 and people like to claim that he was such an obvious choice for Nintendo/Sakurai, but if you've been around Smash speculation for over a year you'd know that a ton of people were discounting Banjo's chances because he was a "irrelevant character from a dead series". One can claim that Geno represents the once close relationship between Nintendo and SE, and also as a representative for SMRPG also represents the Mario RPG series that's been going on for the past 20 years and split off into the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi titles. SE and Nintendo have actually repaired relations on a level to Nintendo and Rare have not. It totally makes sense for Nintendo to bring Geno back to celebrate this.
To further this, one could even say that Geno would be the ultimate handshake in the partnership between Nintendo and SE. No character is a better example of the fruit of their united efforts.
 
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The fact of the matter is that Banjo-Kazooie was as much of a "never ever" fan request as Geno. Hindsight is 20/20 and people like to claim that he was such an obvious choice for Nintendo/Sakurai, but if you've been around Smash speculation for over a year you'd know that a ton of people were discounting Banjo's chances because he was a "irrelevant character from a dead series". One can claim that Geno represents the once close relationship between Nintendo and SE, and also as a representative for SMRPG also represents the Mario RPG series that's been going on for the past 20 years and split off into the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi titles. SE and Nintendo have actually repaired relations on a level to Nintendo and Rare have not. It totally makes sense for Nintendo to bring Geno back to celebrate this.
I feel that SMRPG is highly underrated. SMRPG was significant in the Mario series history. It was nonetheless the first RPG game introduced in the Mario franchise. It is also the first collaboration project between Nintendo and Square. It was the gateway to Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi for the timed hits. Square literally approached Nintendo because they need help having more exposure in the West and that’s where the collaboration project came in. I believe it was one of the games that made Square more popular and the RPG games in the West alongside Chrono Trigger. There should be more SMRPG content over the years. If people just write off as some old unimportant spin-off, they’re highly mistaken.
 
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MisterMike

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C cosmicB I really like how you consistently devalue fan demand as a relevant factor for characters getting into Smash when it's so readily apparent that it's pretty damn significant. Do you really think the likes of King K. Rool would've gotten into Smash if people (Kremling Kampaigners or not) didn't make their voices heard during the Ballot? Do you think Nintendo would've considered Banjo & Kazooie a viable choice for DLC if Banjobros has stayed quiet? Fan demand has been just as important to who gets in Smash as relevancy or marketing is, if not more so. Geno may not have the same level of nostalgic attachment for most that Banjo has, but let's be honest, very few characters do.

And another thing, I'm so beyond sick and tired of people using the supposed "Smash Bubble" as a reason as to why a certain character is less likely. I mean, surely they realize how big Smash Bros is as a franchise, right? It's celestially massive! Do they honestly think that a character is less likely because they're only highly requested by the fans who want them in? Y'know, the same fans who are most likely to buy the DLC characters they make due to their unwavering love for the series? Do they really think it's not monetarily healthy to cater to them? That's business 101.

Hello Geno thread!!, I wanted to ask you all something, if Geno gets in how should Kirby look like?
(I'm dumb and don't understand how to post images so ill post a link)

A or B?
B would be cool, though I think the cape would be a bit too much. I think A's simple design fits much better.
 

xpnc

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"Smash Bubble"
My favourite part about this line of thinking is the idea that the people who support Smash and will continue playing it for years do not count when it comes to considering characters to include

You can't buy DLC without owning the game first
 

YsDisciple

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Hmm, so no Nintendo Direct announcement for the remainder of this week? If we ain't getting the Direct this week, the likelihood of it being next week really starts to sound more interesting. Next week, February 13th falls on a Thursday, and the reason why this is relevant is because February 13th was the last of three dates Matt Walker had teased early January in which they would be revealing new features exclusive to the Devil May Cry 3 Special Edition for the Nintendo Switch. If we in fact do get a Direct announcement either Tuesday, or Wednesday of a Direct on Thursday, that would be the second time within a span of a month that we get coinciding dates of DMC 3 SE, and Nintendo/Smash related announcements.
 

cosmicB

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The fact of the matter is that Banjo-Kazooie was as much of a "never ever" fan request as Geno. Hindsight is 20/20 and people like to claim that he was such an obvious choice for Nintendo/Sakurai, but if you've been around Smash speculation for over a year you'd know that a ton of people were discounting Banjo's chances because he was a "irrelevant character from a dead series". One can claim that Geno represents the once close relationship between Nintendo and SE, and also as a representative for SMRPG also represents the Mario RPG series that's been going on for the past 20 years and split off into the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi titles. SE and Nintendo have actually repaired relations on a level that Nintendo and Rare have not. It totally makes sense for Nintendo to bring Geno back to celebrate this.
I can only speak personally and Banjo always made sense to me, but fair enough as I'm relatively new to the deep speculation scene. Assuming the Paper Mario rumors are true, that's certainly a lot to celebrate, though in a relatively bittersweet way with Alphadream's death.

C cosmicB I really like how you consistently devalue fan demand as a relevant factor for characters getting into Smash when it's so readily apparent that it's pretty damn significant. Do you really think the likes of King K. Rool would've gotten into Smash if people (Kremling Kampaigners or not) didn't make their voices heard during the Ballot? Do you think Nintendo would've considered Banjo & Kazooie a viable choice for DLC if Banjobros has stayed quiet? Fan demand has been just as important to who gets in Smash as relevancy or marketing is, if not more so. Geno may not have the same level of nostalgic attachment for most that Banjo has, but let's be honest, very few characters do.

And another thing, I'm so beyond sick and tired of people using the supposed "Smash Bubble" as a reason as to why a certain character is less likely. I mean, surely they realize how big Smash Bros is as a franchise, right? It's celestially massive! Do they honestly think that a character is less likely because they're only highly requested by the fans who want them in? Y'know, the same fans who are most likely to buy the DLC characters they make due to their unwavering love for the series? Do they really think it's not monetarily healthy to cater to them? That's business 101.
If I'm coming off as devaluing fan demand to my own smug benefit, I can assure you that's not the case at all or my intention. I was ecstatic when Ridley got in, was crushed when Isaac got AT'd, and am still anticipating the possibility of Lloyd, Arle and Geno. If anything, these counterarguments are more here to protect myself from getting my hopes up than trying to break anyone else's hopes down.

And when I say Smash Bubble, I don't mean the 16 million people playing around the world. I mean the fraction of a fraction of that; the people that will consistently engage with the rest of the fanbase on social media, the people that will throw out potential odd ball picks that maybe a hundred thousand people at most would show any interest in, the people that are plugged into the scene 24/7 and not just the competitive scene which in a wide sense place mechanics as the absolute priority rather than the characters themselves. The people talking about this stuff on forums are a minority of a minority, something other aspects of the bubble have acknowledged (like the aforementioned competitive scene as explaind by Nairo).

As for everything else you said, again I agree. Fan demand IS important. I'm just not convinced that in the context of Ultimate, it's AS important for the DLC. Sakurai will have 6 opportunities to prove me wrong and it's not like I'd be floored if he did. If anything, it would be a pleasant surprise.
 
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JarBear

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My favourite part about this line of thinking is the idea that the people who support Smash and will continue playing it for years do not count when it comes to considering characters to include

You can't buy DLC without owning the game first
That is some crazy thinking there ... kind of like those crazy companies that ask their customers for their feedback. LIKE WHO CARES WHAT THE CUSTOMERS THINK!

:ultpacman:
 

Dynamic Worlok

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I¨m not arguing about the different flavors of the Mario Bros/Pokemon character, nor do I think they have too many because of how big the franchise has. I was just saying that the Super Fire Emblem Bros comment is equally annoying because it does not make any sense as well.
If it's that specifically, I think the whole point is for it to be an over-exaggeration. If there are people that are taking it seriously, then fie upon them. Sort of like the "oops all fire emblem" meme, which I think is hilarious, even when I put aside my frustration.
599.jpg
 
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