Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Icewolff92]

https://mobile.twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1224953803335553024?s=20

It says in the headline that they didn't go with a character preference of Sakurai's. In the following replies, Push Dustin says that "character" meant a character in general and not specifically a Three Houses or even Fire Emblem character.

O.o What if the character Nintendo forced him to add were Banjo and Kazooie? O.o
I¨m asking this because B&K is the only franchise that Sakurai has been openly come out and say that he is a fan of

 

[ForsakenM]

I have to head out for work soon so I've just been skimming, but did we basically just get confirmation that Sakurai had a character in mind and in some sort of stage of development for Smash Ultimate that was then rejected by Nintendo and replaced with Byleth?

Am I seeing this right? Does this mean that all the oddities around Byleth actually pointed to something after all?

 

[Vector Victor]

View attachment 261135

Anyone else think it's a huge problem that nintendo specifically shot down a character sakurai wanted and replaced them with a shill pick. Sakurai has said he's wanted Geno for years, I really hope Nintendo themselves didn't just gun down Geno like that.

For all we know, this character could have just been bumped to the second pass, perhaps even the reason why FP2 has six characters. Maybe when it was decided to have a second pass, they just thought to change up the order. Funny enough, that would strengthen the 'Byleth wasn't character 5' theory.

Sakurai said the DLC list for pass 1 was locked back in late 2018, at a time when pass 2 wasn't a thought. At no point has it been admitted that after that things changed. So one theory is that Nintendo confirmed list 1, saw Ultimate be a huge success, decide on pass 2 but mix around the remaining unknown characters' order.

I dare claim, with no evidence or science, that Byleth WASN'T a part of pass 1 in 2018.

 

[pinshadow]

I have to head out for work soon so I've just been skimming, but did we basically just get confirmation that Sakurai had a character in mind and in some sort of stage of development for Smash Ultimate that was then rejected by Nintendo and replaced with Byleth?

Am I seeing this right? Does this mean that all the oddities around Byleth actually pointed to something after all?

No. The situation seems to be that Nintendo chose the DLC and Sakurai just had to go along with it, and that these were not his personal choices. Pretty much saying they made him put in Byleth as a shill pick.

 

[Icewolff92]

I dare claim, with no evidence or science, that Byleth WASN'T a part of pass 1 in 2018.

The release of the 3H DLC trailer proves your wrong

 

[Deleted member]

Before the inevitable “IDK u guys I think Nintendo picking characters is bad for Geno akchually B^)” posts consider the following:

1. Nintendo chose to re-release SMRPG on VC several times and included it on the SNES Classic. They know it’s a popular game that can make them money.

2. They specifically referenced Geno during their random SMRPG anniversary Team Geno vs Team Mallow. Twitter poll a few years ago. They know the character is very popular. Also what a weird thing to essentially ask people which of these 2 specific characters from a then 23 year old game they prefer over the other.

3. They specifically referenced Geno in their sponsored HQ Trivia question selection that occurred the day before Smash released. This means that Nintendo is officially acknowledging the character outside of just social media for the sake of farming twitter interactions.

4. That Nintendo artist’s now deleted blogpost about how Geno had been heavily discussed at Nintendo offices a few years ago. Another piece of evidence that they know Geno is popular and are trying to figure out how to utilize the character.

5. This is all before the Grinch Leak that we know Nintendo was aware of and pissed off at the backlash of. They saw that people liked and wanted the character on the level of Banjo who ended up being their best received DLC character by far.

If there were a “surprise” fan pick Nintendo would go for it absolutely would have a high chance of being Geno.

Not to mention the outcry on social media. If Nintendo were picking fan favorites they would definitely go with Waluigi and Geno.

 

[Vector Victor]

The release of the 3H DLC trailer proves your wrong

Incorrect, because reasons and furthermore. Take the XY plotted graph and flip it, and all will be clear probably.

 

[Datboigeno]

"And at the same time, I announced that we are creating 6th to 11th DLC fighters. [I’ll write] about these in the next column. See you again in the next two weeks!!"
Wait a minute, that means that we are indeed getting a character in a nintendo direct!

Wait holy **** I missed that part! Uhhh idk how the heck he would discuss characters 6-11 without any sort of reveal beforehand. If there’s not a reveal in a direct or whatever then by him discussing them alone we’ll get a big insight into what the process was to select them and very likely get an idea of what kinds of characters are/aren’t getting in (ATs, spirits, 1st parties, fan requests, etc.)

 

[Icewolff92]

Incorrect, because reasons and furthermore. Take the XY plotted graph and flip it, and all will be clear probably.

is all I'm saying about that

 

[MisterMike]

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1224953803335553024?s=20


..... Huh.

Hmm, interesting.
On one hand this means that Sakurai really doesn't pick who's getting in, meaning that arguing that Sakurai wants a character doesn't mean as much as we thought it did.
On the other hand, this means that Nintendo themselves wanted to include Banjo & Kazooie because they knew the fans wanted it, which means that the likelihood of someone like Geno or Crash being revealed at E3 has just gone up.
Either way, it's good to finally have clarification on that. Here's hoping Nintendo wanted to put Geno in.

I didn't really see it as him talking about Geno being denied or a shoe in for the next set. My first impression was him wanting a different 3H character (Eldegard comes to mind) but Nintendo want the protagonist/avatar character again.

I am now looking forward to hearing what he has to say about this.

If Nintendo is picking the characters again, I don't think they would actually pick Geno. Or in the case it does seem very unlikely to me that Nintendo would follow thru and pick Geno over someone they find more modern.

I disagree. I think the fact that Nintendo were the ones who picked the DLC actually bodes decently well for Geno, because it heavily implies that they also chose most if not all of the characters for base game, which included the highly requested Ridley and K. Rool as fighters.

What about Sephiroth is anime? Clearly you haven't played the games or watched the movie. Final Fantasy is literally just not anime in any way.

>A dude with long white hair brandishing a long, thin katana isn't anime as ****

I would prefer it if you don'tn't.

Either way Lloyd's ship has basically sailed now.
Sakurai admits we have enough sword fighters in the roster already and Lloyd is one that particularly does not bring anything unique or refreshing moveset-wise.

I wouldn't be so quick to spike that proverbial football just yet, but I do agree that it makes him a bit less likely now.

Sakurai says there's too many sword users. You know who doesn't use a sword? Geno.

View attachment 261122

Checkmate.

Are you sure about that, my guy?

Spoiler: Spoiler'd for size

If Geno is among the fighters in this pass, I would love to see a trailer with all the swordsman fighting and a single Geno Whirl cuts through all of them.

The rusted chains of prison moons are shattered by the sun?
I like it!

It's kind of ironic that we're now back to where we were after the 2018 November Direct.

>Nintendo adds Plant.

"Nintendo hates the fanbase."

>Sakurai says Nintendo picked DLC.

"They're all going to be shill picks!"

>Nintendo adds Joker, Hero, Banjo, and Terry.

"These are really good picks!"

>Fanbase gets comically high expectations for 5. Gets BTFO large enough that Nostradamus probably predicted it.

"Nintendo hates the fanbase."

>Sakurai says Nintendo picked DLC, again.

"Everyone in Season 2 is going to be a shill pick!"

Same as it ever was...

-Free DLC for limited time.
-Only DLC with a Palutena Guidance
-Announced before game comes out
-One of the first characters to have their amiibo released
-Currently the only DLC to have its amiibo released

Yea, all signs point to Plant being base game. The question is, why was he pushed to DLC?

Occam's Razor: They just couldn't finish him in time.

So no Direct announcement. Next week for sure or I'm gonna go crazy.

Also how the heck did you guys do ~3 pages in 4 hours?

Do you believe in [GRAVITY], Polarthief?

 

[Polarthief]

There is zero evidence of that happenning. All he said was that Nintendo chose the characters and he would have put in other characters given the choice. Similar implications, but nothing implying he flat out asked for someone and Nintendo said no.

Yup, just read the entire translation, this is definitely what was said.

No. The situation seems to be that Nintendo chose the DLC and Sakurai just had to go along with it, and that these were not his personal choices. Pretty much saying they made him put in Byleth as a shill pick.

Sad but true. I feel especially bad for Sakurai after all the assholes who blamed him and said "**** you Sakurai" when he doesn't even want more FE characters.

Gives me doubt about FP2, not necessarily about Geno, just the pack as a whole. Kinda worried on the shill picks and, like I said 4 pages ago, Urshifu is practically a shoe-in now if there's a Pokemon rep -______- rip Toxtricity/Punk-Rocker dreams.

Do you believe in [GRAVITY], Polarthief?

Sorry I just woke up, you're gonna have to explain. I just want my DAMN DIRECT ALREADY, MIKE!

Wait holy **** I missed that part! Uhhh idk how the heck he would discuss characters 6-11 without any sort of reveal beforehand. If there’s not a reveal in a direct or whatever then by him discussing them alone we’ll get a big insight into what the process was to select them and very likely get an idea of what kinds of characters are/aren’t getting in (ATs, spirits, 1st parties, fan requests, etc.)

He could talk about the selection process without explicitly giving names, or what his involvement, if any, was in the selection, or why he decided to go with 6 characters instead of 5, or why we're getting an FP2 at all.

While there's a stupidly high probability of a direct before those 2 weeks are up, and also a stupidly high probability of DLC 6 showing up there, that doesn't explicitly say "DLC 6 will be revealed by then".

 

[AugustusB]

This is the translation pushdustin said to look at, he even retweeted it.

Most excellent! Did not realize he tweeted this one out, so that is good.

The whole 6th to 11th fighter talk is interesting.

 

[TriggerX]

For all we know, this character could have just been bumped to the second pass, perhaps even the reason why FP2 has six characters. Maybe when it was decided to have a second pass, they just thought to change up the order. Funny enough, that would strengthen the 'Byleth wasn't character 5' theory.

Sakurai said the DLC list for pass 1 was locked back in late 2018, at a time when pass 2 wasn't a thought. At no point has it been admitted that after that things changed. So one theory is that Nintendo confirmed list 1, saw Ultimate be a huge success, decide on pass 2 but mix around the remaining unknown characters' order.

I dare claim, with no evidence or science, that Byleth WASN'T a part of pass 1 in 2018.

Honestly the second dlc pack was probably thought of at the same time as the first.

I wouldn’t go as far as to say the dlc pack 2 wasn’t a thought. Like most AAA titles there is probably some kind of road map they are following that illustrates where they see the game in like the next 5 years, while also keeping in mind releases for other games as well as the consoles life span.

Sure Sakurai is the face of the development team for this game, but it’s unlikely that they operate independent from Nintendo’s own plans.

I would agree that the second wave of dlc probably wasn’t as concrete as the first, but there were probably already a handful of characters that already populated a potential list. And the list is probably subject to change as well.

As far as how characters are picked, I would assume its more of a back and forth thing. Nintendo and Sakurai comprise a list of characters. Sends Sakurai a list to look over. Sakurai tells them what he thinks would work. Then Nintendo essentially has the final say as to what characters are “necessary“.

Overall if anything my assumption is that the success of the first pass didn’t spark the thought,”hey let’s do another pass” , it just green lights a plan they already had in place.

There are multiple Dlc mii costumes still missing, which isn’t concrete evidence by any means, but helps support the idea that Nintendo had already planned to sprinkle these pre existing mii costumes across multiple packs. Because for the life of me, I can’t see why we’re still getting dlc content that was released before. Another assumption, but it’s probably because from a consumer perspective it makes it seem like we’re getting more content than what we’ve previously gotten making it a more enticing buy.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Honestly, if you're going to take away anything from today, Nintendo actively CHOSE Joker and Banjo. Nintendo's picks for the Fighter's Pass were pretty solid, especially in the light that there was a mandatory promotional pick. That should leave you pretty optimistic about Season 2. They're definitely not deaf to fan requests and even the ones that weren't super wanted were pretty ****in' cool all and all. I didn't even know who Terry was this time last year but I'm incredibly glad he's in the game and most of you probably have a least one of the five you feel this way about.

 

[Spatulo]

Honestly, if you're going to take away anything from today, Nintendo actively CHOSE Joker and Banjo. Nintendo's picks for the Fighter's Pass were pretty solid, especially in the light that there was a mandatory promotional pick. That should leave you pretty optimistic about Season 2. They're definitely not deaf to fan requests and even the ones that weren't super wanted were pretty ****in' cool all and all. I didn't even know who Terry was this time last year but I'm incredibly glad he's in the game and most of you probably have a least one of the five you feel this way about.

I had never heard much about KoF before and now I’ve bought 4 SNK fighting games in the past five months. Let’s not discount the fun of discovering cool characters through smash.

 

[MisterMike]

Sorry I just woke up, you're gonna have to explain. I just want my DAMN DIRECT ALREADY, MIKE!

It's fate, my guy. We do about 3 pages in 4 hours because it was fated to happen.

 

[Polarthief]

It's fate, my guy. We do about 3 pages in 4 hours because it was fated to happen.

Oh, I guess, but previous days of sleeping for a more healthy length of time, not even a single page would go by, haha.

Seriously though, where's my damn direct, Nintendo? Inb4 we get the Animal Crossing one before the general one, and as much as I love AC and want to see it, I really, REALLY want to see the general one first.

Edit: Oh btw the picture didn't come in til now, rip. That's a Jojo character, right? Everything's a Jojo reference nowadays, I just never got far enough to know them all.

 

[T2by4]

Mfw they make geno a mii costume all the way at FP11

 

[Polarthief]

Mfw they make geno a mii costume all the way at FP11

That would be the worst tease ever, waiting all the way to FP11 with no Geno costume just to get the Sm4sh (or an upgraded) costume right at the end, especially if no SE character comes until the 11th one.

That'd be 2 years of shattered dreams right there.

 

[Fatmanonice]

https://smashboards.com/threads/gen...-2-speculation.446378/page-2371#post-23819817

Bringing this post up again because Forest Maze worked themselves into a frenzy and I got several messages about Markomaro's tweet. Yes, he was likely talking about multiple games. Yes, there is a strong possibility of multiple Nintendo franchises based on things I've heard. Multiple dead franchises? Maybe. That's stuffing the cannon quite a bit in my opinion but we'll see how things play out.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

The wait is killing me guys, seriously. I need an idea how this pass will go, I need that first reveal.

 

[Turtlar]

View attachment 261141

Mfw they make geno a mii costume all the way at FP11

Let's make it even worse. Geno mii costume in FP11, for another promotional character nobody asked for.

I vote we riot.

 

[Vector Victor]

Seeing Gameexplain's video on this topic, the comments. Ugh. It's all 'Well, Pokemon has X and Mario has Y!' If Geno gets in, it will be a chorus of people trying to pull gotcha! moments on everyone by accusing people of hypocrisy, not understanding that it isn't the same thing.

 

[T2by4]

https://smashboards.com/threads/geno-♪-return-of-the-starsend-savior-on-to-fighters-pass-2-speculation.446378/page-2371#post-23819817

Bringing this post up again because Forest Maze worked themselves into a frenzy and I got several messages about Markomaro's tweet. Yes, he was likely talking about multiple games. Yes, there is a strong possibility of multiple Nintendo franchises based on things I've heard. Multiple dead franchises? Maybe. That's stuffing the cannon quite a bit in my opinion but we'll see how things play out.

Is it possible one of them is SMRPG. I recall you saying it wasn't, but I could be tripping. Just want to hear from your opinion.

 

[Lord Woomy]

Anyone else think it's a huge problem that nintendo specifically shot down a character sakurai wanted and replaced them with a shill pick. Sakurai has said he's wanted Geno for years, I really hope Nintendo themselves didn't just gun down Geno like that.

Really, even if that's the case, it's probably good news for us. Sakurai usually specifies which characters he wanted but couldn't include (Geno being one of them in 4) if he didn't say the name, that just means he'd be planned for FP2

 

[Spatulo]

The wait is killing me guys, seriously. I need an idea how this pass will go, I need that first reveal.

Sir I do not believe you as you are clearly a skeleton and therefore already dead

 

[MattX20]

This interview with Sakurai gives me more hope for Geno since Sakurai is allowed to work with more characters he wants to in exchange for one Nintendo-sponsored pick. And given that Nintendo was well aware of the demand for Banjo, I've very little reason to believe they wouldn't be aware of Geno's demand. Plus, Geno's tied directly to the Mario franchise, their flagship/mascot IP, so Nintendo of Japan being against another Mario character makes no sense. There's a good chance like Fatman said that whoever Sakurai wanted to do last season could be the first, if not first two, character for Season 2

 

[Icewolff92]

Seeing Gameexplain's video on this topic, the comments. Ugh. It's all 'Well, Pokemon has X and Mario has Y!' If Geno gets in, it will be a chorus of people trying to pull gotcha! moments on everyone by accusing people of hypocrisy, not understanding that it isn't the same thing.

And as if "WE MIGHT AS WELL CALL IT SUPER FIRE EMBLEM BROS" is not equally annoying

 

[Datboigeno]

And as if "WE MIGHT AS WELL CALL IT SUPER FIRE EMBLEM BROS" is not equally annoying

If you can't see by now how the context for the FE character criticism is inherently different than if people started complaining about Pokemon or Mario I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So, with Sakurai confirming yet again that Nintendo picks the characters, I think it's once again important to look at characters that Nintendo, Sakurai, and major third parties have talked about. In that regard, we're doing pretty alright, especially with Sakurai repeating yet again that there's too many sword fighters and, well, that's what a vast majority of Geno's competition within Square are.

 

[Shadow__Myth]

The wait is killing me guys, seriously. I need an idea how this pass will go, I need that first reveal.

At the very least, we're confirmed to be getting some kind of information in 2 weeks about FP2, regardless if there's a reveal in the next Nintendo Direct.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

And as if "WE MIGHT AS WELL CALL IT SUPER FIRE EMBLEM BROS" is not equally annoying

The pokemon and Mario characters generally tend to be distinct enough in appearance, flavor and fighting style (echoes notwithstanding) that they're far less likely to draw the ire of the crowd purely based on their franchise. It doesn't help that the FE picks generally tend to be the flavor of the month from the new game, as opposed to older ones people have requested like lyn, or the black knight. (Though pokemon has also fallen into this trap, and people are similarly displeased with it)

 

[Polarthief]

(Though pokemon has also fallen into this trap, and people are similarly displeased with it)

Urshifu = Riot at the shill, crappier, Pangoro
Toxtricity or Obstagoon = <3
Intelleon or Cinderace = Acceptable
Rillaboom = Groaning Acceptance (re: I wouldn't like it, but at least it's not Urshifu)
Either one of the doggos = Wouldn't happen because that would show one version as superior, which is why all Pokémon are from both versions.

I'm so annoyed that Urshifu has a legitimate chance of getting in and cucking over Tox

 

[cosmicB]

But that's kind of the point. You can count on two fingers the DLC in both 4 and Ultimate that were hard Nintendo picks. Sakurai and Nintendo basically met in the middle for pretty much everyone else. That's still a pretty big deal and also kind of kills the argument that Nintendo is incapable of making good decisions.

I'm genuinely curious what would make Geno a good "meet in the middle" pick. If Byleth and Joker are "shill" picks (I disagree on this, but it's besides the point), Hero is a combination of shill and iconic legacy that goes beyond Smash, and Banjo and Terry are thank yous to friendly partners, where does Geno fit in?

Assuming the DLC will follow the same pattern, let's go down the list.

Shill pick: Makes zero sense and there are far better candidates unless an SMPRG remake is in the works.
Iconic legacy: Not iconic outside of the Smash bubble.
Company thank you: see shill pick

What Geno has going for him is entirely fan requests, which base roster (K.Rool, Ridley) represents far better than DLC that people have to pay extra for. If the interpretation of that interview is Nintendo overriding Sakurai on personal picks unless he can convince them it would maximize profits or find a way to meet in the middle, I'm not sure how that translates to good news for Geno when even Banjo's motivation can be argued as "good way to maintain relations with Microsoft" more than throwing fans a bone.

I'd certainly be happy to be wrong on this, but this honestly makes me think Geno's chances have dropped unless he's seriously an initially dropped bonus character and a passion project for Sakurai that he's willing to make with no financial incentive.

 

[Firox]

So, with Sakurai confirming yet again that Nintendo picks the characters, I think it's once again important to look at characters that Nintendo, Sakurai, and major third parties have talked about. In that regard, we're doing pretty alright, especially with Sakurai repeating yet again that there's too many sword fighters and, well, that's what a vast majority of Geno's competition within Square are.

This is actually a really good point. I mean, who else within SE would compete with Geno? 2B? Sephiroth? Sora? All of them are sword users! For the sake of variety alone, this is a pretty positive angle in Geno's favor. He's the only one I can think of that uses guns and projectiles.

 

[Deleted member]

This is actually a really good point. I mean, who else within SE would compete with Geno? 2B? Sephiroth? Sora? All of them are sword users! For the sake of variety alone, this is a pretty positive angle in Geno's favor. He's the only one I can think of that uses guns and projectiles.

Don’t forget Crono. Technically, Sora has a key blade but yeah, it’s very much like a sword.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

This is actually a really good point. I mean, who else within SE would compete with Geno? 2B? Sephiroth? Sora? All of them are sword users! For the sake of variety alone, this is a pretty positive angle in Geno's favor. He's the only one I can think of that uses guns and projectiles.

UHHHHH SORA'S A C T U A L L Y A KEY USER

 

[Firox]

Don’t forget Crono. Technically, Sora has a key blade but yeah, it’s very much like a sword.

Oh, yeah, there's Crono. He uses a sword, right?

UHHHHH SORA'S A C T U A L L Y A KEY USER

It's called a Key BLADE. LOL Can't wait for people to bust out their swords so they can SPLIT THOSE HAIRS.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm genuinely curious what would make Geno a good "meet in the middle" pick. If Byleth and Joker are "shill" picks (I disagree on this, but it's besides the point), Hero is a combination of shill and iconic legacy that goes beyond Smash, and Banjo and Terry are thank yous to friendly partners, where does Geno fit in?

Assuming the DLC will follow the same pattern, let's go down the list.

Shill pick: Makes zero sense and there are far better candidates unless an SMPRG remake is in the works.
Iconic legacy: Not iconic outside of the Smash bubble.
Company thank you: see shill pick

What Geno has going for him is entirely fan requests, which base roster (K.Rool, Ridley) represents far better than DLC that people have to pay extra for. If the interpretation of that interview is Nintendo overriding Sakurai on personal picks unless he can convince them it would maximize profits or find a way to meet in the middle, I'm not sure how that translates to good news for Geno when even Banjo's motivation can be argued as "good way to maintain relations with Microsoft" more than throwing fans a bone.

I'd certainly be happy to be wrong on this, but this honestly makes me think Geno's chances have dropped unless he's seriously an initially dropped bonus character and a passion project for Sakurai that he's willing to make with no financial incentive.

Gone into this in the past but my basic answer is that Geno's a "toy in the attic." He's a third party Mario character that neither company can use without the involvement of the other. On this note, Nintendo and Square have technically worked together with Geno six times in the last 17 years so it's a well worn path. Just like the SNES Classic, it's just another easy venue for money. Geno's low risk and high reward because SMRPG has proven itself sales wise several times over.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, yeah, there's Crono. He uses a sword, right?

Yep and he uses elemental magic attacks too. You know, like lightning and fire. Lara Croft is not a sword user but I don’t think she would that flashy as a character compared to Snake.