Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Sigran101]

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/1224953803335553024?s=20


..... Huh.

Gee, almost like Sakurai meant what he said and the fan made "list theory" everyone passes off as confirmed fact wasn't real just like I said.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Look he can state Nintendo is responsible for the characters all he wishes but when 4/5 characters have been characters he's personally attached to it really calls in to question the accuracy of those claims. Besides he's lied about development before.

But that's kind of the point. You can count on two fingers the DLC in both 4 and Ultimate that were hard Nintendo picks. Sakurai and Nintendo basically met in the middle for pretty much everyone else. That's still a pretty big deal and also kind of kills the argument that Nintendo is incapable of making good decisions.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Look he can state Nintendo is responsible for the characters all he wishes but when 4/5 characters have been characters he's personally attached to it really calls in to question the accuracy of those claims. Besides he's lied about development before.

Is it possible that Nintendo has at least a little bit of integrity, but dropped the ball hard with byleth because corporate overlords must needs be appeased?

 

[Organization XIII]

The only standout “Sakurai-connected” character is Terry Bogard. No **** he likes Persona and Dragon Quest, he’s JAPANESE AND PLAYS VIDEO GAMES.

Sure I'll give you DQ since it's practically a religion in Japan but Sakurai sure lucked out Nintendo just happened to want P5 in Smash after all his talks about how great P5 and how some of the game influenced Ultimate. I don't understand why it's so hard to believe Sakurai may have had a larger role in DLC selection than he lets on.

But that's kind of the point. You can count on two fingers the DLC in both 4 and Ultimate that were hard Nintendo picks. Sakurai and Nintendo basically met in the middle for pretty much everyone else. That's still a pretty big deal and also kind of kills the argument that Nintendo is incapable of making good decisions.

Maybe so but Sakurai himself is usually responsible for those "Nintendo" picks and I don't think Byleth is different. Also not going to quote it but when you said that the quote implies there was a character Sakurai wanted that wasn't given preference, I don't think that's right. It's saying characters weren't given preference because of his feelings towards them in general not characters he wanted were passed over. At least so far with the little context we have. Maybe the full article will support your idea later. We'll see.

Is it possible that Nintendo has at least a little bit of integrity, but dropped the ball hard with byleth because corporate overlords must needs be appeased?

I don't consider Byleth a lack of integrity for either Sakurai or Nintendo. An Ad character is a smart business move but there were better ad characters available and I don't buy Sakurai's preferences didn't play a part after other comments for this DLC and considering his relationship with who we got.

 

[AdamBel731]

Everyone seems so shocked that Sakurai clarified once again that he didn't pick the fighter (Byleth) and that he understands there are a lot of Fire Emblem characters (when Corrin was revealed) even though he's clarified both these things a while ago.

The reason people forget or choose to disregard this information is because some people are so sure that Sakurai trolling = Sakurai being an outright liar. "Oh but what about that one time with Zero Suit Samus, and blah blah blah." That's different. Sakurai explicitly said that Nintendo picked the DLC, but just because of that one Atlus comment about Sakurai being excited and him going to them, so many people seemingly just chose to disregard what Sakurai said previously, just assumed he was lying, and got mad at Sakurai because they acted like HE picked the characters some people don't want. I just get annoyed when Sakurai clearly clarified both of these points, but some people just think Sakurai was lying with malicious intent (very wynn-like) or just because he likes certain games like Persona 5 and Dragon Quest that he HAD to be the one pulling the strings and be responsible for the picks. Let's just assume Sakurai is a cheeky troll at times, but isn't an outright liar in situations like these. The man clearly is genuine and good-natured, and hasn't lied in these sort of capacities before.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Sure I'll give you DQ since it's practically a religion in Japan but Sakurai sure lucked out Nintendo just happened to want P5 in Smash after all his talks about how great P5 and how some of the game influenced Ultimate. I don't understand why it's so hard to believe Sakurai may have had a larger role in DLC selection than he lets on.

Sakurai is the director of the game of course he has a role in the DLC selection, that doesn't mean that Nintendo didn't have the final say. It's also not hard to believe that Nintendo, a beloved video game company that makes world renowned good games, might actually make a few good decisions with dlc.

I also find it funny that people are already in denial "sakurai wanted someone different and thinks there are too many fire emblem characters. This means he's lying and it's actually the opposite"

 

[Fatmanonice]

SNK was definitely a meet in the middle choice. SNK has been a fairly reliable Nintendo ally since the SNES and doubled down starting with the Wii:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_Fury

 

[Sigran101]

I wasn't doubting Nintendo being in charge of picking (in fact, I'd be surprised if they just let Sakurai pick FP2 after FP1), I was doubting the "proof" that I was given that he "confirmed" they were picking FP2, when said proof sounds like FP1-talk.



I'm aware.



Of course fans of FF7/Sephiroth would be happy, of which I'm sure there's a lot of them, but many people are tired of swordsmen, especially anime ones. Sephiroth is both of those things. Nintendo would be putting in another divisive character. It would be Byleth all over again.



I'd be fine with it if it wouldn't interfere with Geno's chances. BD was a great game. BSecond I didn't finish (should go back to that) but was still enjoyable. I'm sure the third will be too.

Only problem is who would be put in. Probably Anges, but she's so bland and boring (at least in BD; can't talk about BS) that I'd be disappointed in the choice. Edea or Ringabel would be much better choices, but just like the 3H pick, the "primary" character is usually picked, unfortunately.

What about Sephiroth is anime? Clearly you haven't played the games or watched the movie. Final Fantasy is literally just not anime in any way.

 

[Vector Victor]

Everyone seems so shocked that Sakurai clarified once again that he didn't pick the fighter (Byleth) and that he understands there are a lot of Fire Emblem characters (when Corrin was revealed) even though he's clarified both these things a while ago.

The reason people forget or choose to disregard this information is because some people are so sure that Sakurai trolling = Sakurai being an outright liar. "Oh but what about that one time with Zero Suit Samus, and blah blah blah." That's different. Sakurai explicitly said that Nintendo picked the DLC, but just because of that one Atlus comment about Sakurai being excited and him going to them, so many people seemingly just chose to disregard what Sakurai said previously, just assumed he was lying, and got mad at Sakurai for HIM being characters some people don't want. I just get annoyed when Sakurai clearly clarified both of these points, but some people just think Sakurai was lying with malicious intent (very wynn-like) or just because he likes certain games like Persona 5 and Dragon Quest that he HAD to be the one pulling the strings and be responsible for the picks. Let's just assume Sakurai is a cheeky troll at times, but isn't an outright liar in situations like these. The man clearly is genuine and good-natured, and hasn't lied in these sort of capacities before.

To be fair, when you (general 'you') hear 'Nintendo picked the characters,' do Joker, Terry and Banjo immediately come to mind?

 

[Shado-will]

What about Sephiroth is anime? Clearly you haven't played the games or watched the movie. Final Fantasy is literally just not anime in any way.

I think at this point, Smash fans just categorize anyone with a sword from a JRPG as "anime"

 

[JudgeHeihachi]

Either way Lloyd's ship has basically sailed now.
Sakurai admits we have enough sword fighters in the roster already and Lloyd is one that particularly does not bring anything unique or refreshing moveset-wise.

 

[Organization XIII]

Sakurai is the director of the game of course he has a role in the DLC selection, that doesn't mean that Nintendo didn't have the final say. It's also not hard to believe that Nintendo, a beloved video game company that makes world renowned good games, might actually make a few good decisions with dlc.

I also find it funny that people are already in denial "sakurai wanted someone different and thinks there are too many fire emblem characters. This means he's lying and it's actually the opposite"

Uh, I don't doubt Nintendo can make good choices. Never have. I just don't think Sakurai's being forthcoming with how large his role is with DLC selection. He has lied in the past about development before I don't see why people have a problem accepting he might have now. It's not even Byleth specific if we had gotten another game he was personally invested in as 5 I would be making these claims.

Either way Lloyd's ship has basically sailed now.
Sakurai admits we have enough sword fighters in the roster already and Lloyd is one that particularly does not bring anything unique or refreshing moveset-wise.

Dude if those same comments in Smash 4 didn't stop swordfighters or FE characters before they won't stop them now. Especially not for unique characters like Llyod.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

What about Sephiroth is anime? Clearly you haven't played the games or watched the movie. Final Fantasy is literally just not anime in any way.

Spiky haired big eyed smol boy carrying a sword equal in size to himself that he can wield with one hand? A beefy boi that can suplex an actual factual train? Definitely nothing anime about that

 

[Fatmanonice]

To be fair, when you (general 'you') hear 'Nintendo picked the characters,' do Joker, Terry and Banjo immediately come to mind?

Not on a surface level but if you pull back they definitely make sense as corporate Nintendo picks:

-Persona is huge in Japan and Altus has worked with Nintendo since the NES.

-Dragon Quest is huge in Japan and Enix has worked with Nintendo since the NES.

-King of Fighters is huge in Japan and SNK has worked with Nintendo since the SNES.

-Banjo used to be a Nintendo IP and now Microsoft wants to team up to double teabag Sony.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Uh, I don't doubt Nintendo can make good choices. Never have. I just don't think Sakurai's being forthcoming with how large his role is with DLC selection. He has lied in the past about development before I don't see why people have a problem accepting he might have now. It's not even Byleth specific if we had gotten another game he was personally invested in as 5 I would be making these claims.

Dude if those same comments in Smash 4 didn't stop swordfighters or FE characters before they won't stop them now. Especially not for unique characters like Llyod.

I'm gonna need some citations?

 

[AdamBel731]

To be fair, when you (general 'you') hear 'Nintendo picked the characters,' do Joker, Terry and Banjo immediately come to mind?

That doesn't matter, to be frank. It doesn't change the fact that Sakurai clarified he didn't pick the fighters. Him doubling down on this fact proves to me that he isn't just "trolling" or "lying." Again, some people like to just disregard things Sakurai says because they think Sakurai trolling = Sakurai lying. My opinions on whether I think the DLC fighters are good or bad doesn't matter for my point. What matters is that Sakurai isn't an outright liar and some people should stop thinking of him as one when he clearly isn't.

(I'm not mad at you by the way, just being critical towards the side I'm calling out.)

 

[Organization XIII]

I'm gonna need some citations?

Bayo winning the ballot is should be enough for that.

 

[T2by4]

Not on a surface level but if you pull back they definitely make sense as corporate Nintendo picks:

-Persona is huge in Japan and Altus has worked with Nintendo since the NES.

-Dragon Quest is huge in Japan and Enix has worked with Nintendo since the NES.

-King of Fighters is huge in Japan and SNK has worked with Nintendo since the SNES.

-Banjo used to be a Nintendo IP and now Microsoft wants to team up to double teabag Sony.

I mean if that's true that they wanted to double dab on Sony, then what would that mean if Crash gets in? Crash is basically the face of Sony.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Bayo winning the ballot is should be enough for that.

We don't have hard data for it. Saying that was a lie is pure conjecture, especially when you ignore the context of "what was realizable"

 

[Opossum]

I mean if that's true that they wanted to double dab on Sony, then what would that mean if Crash gets in? Crash is basically the face of Sony.

Crash hasn't been "the face of Sony" for almost two decades.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Either way Lloyd's ship has basically sailed now.
Sakurai admits we have enough sword fighters in the roster already and Lloyd is one that particularly does not bring anything unique or refreshing moveset-wise.

There's a lot I can say here but the main thing is to never underestimate Sakurai's ability to make characters unique and interesting. As someone who has seen countless people die on the "they're boring and there's no way to make them unique" hill over the years, it's kind of become the signature cautionary tale of the Smash fanbase:

 

[Organization XIII]

We don't have hard data for it. Saying that was a lie is pure conjecture, especially when you ignore the context of "what was realizable"

I suppose that true. I mean even with her slot data being there a whole 2 weeks into the ballot meaning all the rights were already negotiated before then and she was already selected I guess it's possible she won too.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Bear in mind, if we accept that sakurai will lie to us, we also then have to consider that he might have lied about many other things, up to and including geno's popularity and consideration for inclusion.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Crash hasn't been "the face of Sony" for almost two decades.

This. Crash hasn't been published by Sony since 2000 and Crash has been on Nintendo platforms since 2002.

 

[Spatulo]

I don't understand why it's so hard to believe Sakurai may have had a larger role in DLC selection than he lets on.

What I don’t understand is this constant, insufferable insistence by some people that everything Sakurai says is a lie or a half truth or a puzzle. The man has given us no reason not to trust him on serious matters and I’m gonna take him at his word.

 

[Organization XIII]

Bear in mind, if we accept that sakurai will lie to us, we also then have to consider that he might have lied about many other things, up to and including geno's popularity and consideration for inclusion.

Um, I think it comes down more to using more than just his words as proof. For Geno being popular, you can see that in the community. Besides just because he lies sometimes doesn't everything is a lie. He human so some mistruth here and there isn't unexpected doesn't mean he's pathological. Just have to analyze his comments just as we do with everything else.

What I don’t understand is this constant, insufferable insistence by some people that everything Sakurai says is a lie or a half truth or a puzzle. The man has given us no reason not to trust him on serious matters and I’m gonna take him at his word.

Well power to you. I think he is human and more than capable of lying in such matters and has. I don't think he lies all the time just sometimes things don't look the way he paints them. So I prefer to analyze what he says instead of taking everything at face value. Sadly we don't have the man hooked up to a lie detector so I could be wrong and he's truthful on this matter but from what I see I think there's a little more at play. I can respect giving him the benefit of the doubt though.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

I suppose that true. I mean even with her slot data being there a whole 2 weeks into the ballot meaning all the rights were already negotiated before then and she was already selected I guess it's possible she won too.

That's the citation I'm looking for. Now we know for a fact that it's bayo's data, correct? Not just an empty slot? (I'm genuinely not familiar with the situation, so I need the data)

Um, I think it comes down more to using more than just his words as proof. For Geno being popular, you can see that in the community. Besides just because he lies sometimes doesn't everything is a lie. He human so some mistruth here and there isn't unexpected doesn't mean he's pathological. Just have to analyze his comments just as we do with everything else.

My point is, once we open that door, it is something we are forced to consider. We don't have the luxury of choosing which yet-unproven statements are and aren't lies.

 

[Fatmanonice]

What I don’t understand is this constant, insufferable insistence by some people that everything Sakurai says is a lie or a half truth or a puzzle. The man has given us no reason not to trust him on serious matters and I’m gonna take him at his word.

This. Sakurai is trolly but he's not a liar. (Why does that sound familiar?) I'm also not arguing that Sakurai hated adding Byleth. Far from it. He basically admits Byleth wouldn't have been one of his choices but was willing to work with it because Nintendo wanted it so bad. That's compromise and professionalism in the face of rejection. That's admirable and nobody should argue otherwise.

 

[Organization XIII]

That's the citation I'm looking for. Now we know for a fact that it's bayo's data, correct? Not just an empty slot? (I'm genuinely not familiar with the situation, so I need the data)


My point is, once we open that door, it is something we are forced to consider. We don't have the luxury of choosing which yet-unproven statements are and aren't lies.

Yes, the slot data contained ZSS' data already which was Bayo's base. She was even added before Corrin's data.
https://forums.serenesforest.net/in...a-had-placeholder-data-as-early-as-patch-106/
And that's true but what I'm saying is there plenty to make our own judgments about the quotes so it's not like we are totally blind. So for the Geno comments we know he's popular and so we know those comments are likely truthful. I usually give Sakurai trust unless other factors seem to imply otherwise myself.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Yes, the slot data contained ZSS' data already which was Bayo's base. She was even added before Corrin's data.
https://forums.serenesforest.net/in...a-had-placeholder-data-as-early-as-patch-106/
And that's true but what I'm saying is there plenty to make our own judgments about the quotes so it's not like we are totally blind. So for the Geno comments we know he's popular and so we know those comments are likely truthful. I usually give Sakurai trust unless other factors seem to imply otherwise myself.

Fair enough. However, I do not believe he is lying here, considering having his hands tied by Nintendo makes the whole rex situation make a lot more sense.

Edit: something else to consider is that ultimate was gonna begin planning pretty quick after smash 4, and sakurai wouldn't have the luxury of being like "yeah, we didn't use the ballot data for this one because we're already working on the next one"

 

[Deleted member]

What I don’t understand is this constant, insufferable insistence by some people that everything Sakurai says is a lie or a half truth or a puzzle. The man has given us no reason not to trust him on serious matters and I’m gonna take him at his word.

this is the grinch leak all over again
"there won't be many newcomers this time around"
"HE'S A MASTER TROLL THEY'RE GONNA ADD 7 CHARACTERS IN ONE DIRECT"

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

this is the grinch leak all over again
"there won't be many newcomers this time around"
"HE'S A MASTER TROLL THEY'RE GONNA ADD 7 CHARACTERS IN ONE DIRECT"

"There won't be an announcement of any new characters"
They're totally gonna surprise us with a character reveal

 

[AdamBel731]

"Sakurai reminded people that Nintendo had picked the characters, and that they were not decided by 'my own favorites.' Because they were decided like this, Sakurai says that 'I just proceed as-is. There are other things I must think about more.' That said, Sakurai not only understands the criticism some fans have, but he even agrees with them. Sakurai admitted that 'I understand as well. There are too many Fire Emblem characters. And there are also too many sword users.' In fact, the amount of sword users is exactly why Sakurai says he 'brings in tactics exclusive to each fighter.'"

Link to full article:
https://mynintendonews.com/2020/02/...ny-sword-users/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

*ahem* Organization XIII
"...they were not decided by 'my own favorites.'"

Yep, Sakurai likes Persona 5, Dragon Quest, Fatal Fury, and Fire Emblem, and it is convenient those series were picked. But straight from the horse's mouth, Sakurai, once again, is reaffirming they weren't his personal choices.

 

[Vector Victor]

This. Sakurai is trolly but he's not a liar. (Why does that sound familiar?) I'm also not arguing that Sakurai hated adding Byleth. Far from it. He basically admits Byleth wouldn't have been one of his choices but was willing to work with it because Nintendo wanted it so bad. That's compromise and professionalism in the face of rejection. That's admirable and nobody should argue otherwise.

Yep. He could have even become a fan of Byleth while developing him. And Sakurai tempered the fandom dissatisfaction by making Byleth play much more differently than the other FE characters (imagine if he really was Marth number 5.......wow, that would have been bad).

And like anyone, he can change his mind or find a solution later, like 'Animal Crossing is too peaceful or 'Ridley wouldn't be Ridley.'

And he was telling the truth: Nintendo picked the DLC. It just LOOKED like he was lying because Joker/Banjo/Terry are so not-Nintendo decisions on the surface.

I'm really interested in Sakurai further commenting on this character he liked working on but Nintendo pushed Byleth plot point. If they were going to end on this pass as originally planned, would that imply a character slot really was taken?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Sakurai says there's too many sword users. You know who doesn't use a sword? Geno.

Checkmate.

 

[Icewolff92]

There is no point of adding Sephiroth. He’s not a fan favorite compared to Geno and Sora. Cloud is already there to appeal FF fans. Final Fantasy 7 Remake is unlikely to have plans for the Switch right now. And he’s not even worthy of a pack. They couldn’t even acquire a single piece of artwork in the base game and didn’t add any tracks including from other FF games.

Sepiroth is insanely popular and people have begged for more villains for a long time. Plus (if he is in) nothing says that they haven¨t hold back spirits for this. But you are most likely right that its probably either Sora or Geno. I¨m just putting a third potential name out there from Square, and I think that one could be Sepiroth all things considered.

But then again.... Square isn¨t exactly like any other company. Maybe we get Laura Croft or Agnes from BD as Polar suggested earlier

This. Sakurai is trolly but he's not a liar. (Why does that sound familiar?) I'm also not arguing that Sakurai hated adding Byleth. Far from it. He basically admits Byleth wouldn't have been one of his choices but was willing to work with it because Nintendo wanted it so bad. That's compromise and professionalism in the face of rejection. That's admirable and nobody should argue otherwise.

Pretty much this.

 

[Spatulo]

Sakurai says there's too many sword users. You know who doesn't use a sword? Geno.

View attachment 261122

Checkmate.

Geno: Destroyer of Swords

 

[Datboigeno]

Bear in mind, if we accept that sakurai will lie to us, we also then have to consider that he might have lied about many other things, up to and including geno's popularity and consideration for inclusion.

Yeah, no. I don’t think so at all. Saying your company did/didn’t pick a character or you went to a company to ask for a character is wildly different than saying you like a character and tried to get them in and it didn’t work out.

The difference is in the semantics and wordplay. The guy at the end of the day is hired by Nintendo and at the end of the day doesn’t want to make them look bad nor does he want to give the impression as a creative visionary that all the characters in dlc are shill picks and he’s just doing something that was ordered. It’s somewhere in the middle where he’s given a list of characters and maybe pushes back at some of the demands placed on him but still has wiggle room to request certain things over others (Hero vs Slime as the DQ rep). These things are a lot more complicated than simple blurbs or interview columns can describe. There’s a lot behind the scenes that isn’t public information and likely never will be.

That’s wildly different than Sakurai saying he likes Geno, thinks he fits smash, has a lot of fans, tried to get him in Brawl, it didn’t work out etc. Those statements just read as facts. Now, why wasn’t it approved? Was Brawl the only time he legitimately tried to get Geno into Smash? Was Sakurai satisfied with only ever making him a mii costume and nothing more? Those are the ambiguities that are questionable and worth speculating on imo

 

[AugustusB]

If Geno is among the fighters in this pass, I would love to see a trailer with all the swordsman fighting and a single Geno Whirl cuts through all of them.

 

[Organization XIII]

"Sakurai reminded people that Nintendo had picked the characters, and that they were not decided by 'my own favorites.' Because they were decided like this, Sakurai says that 'I just proceed as-is. There are other things I must think about more.' That said, Sakurai not only understands the criticism some fans have, but he even agrees with them. Sakurai admitted that 'I understand as well. There are too many Fire Emblem characters. And there are also too many sword users.' In fact, the amount of sword users is exactly why Sakurai says he 'brings in tactics exclusive to each fighter.'"

Link to full article:
https://mynintendonews.com/2020/02/...ny-sword-users/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

*ahem* Organization XIII
"...they were not decided by 'my own favorites.'"

Yep, Sakurai likes Persona 5, Dragon Quest, Fatal Fury, and Fire Emblem, and it is convenient those series were picked. But straight from the horse's mouth, Sakurai, once again, is reaffirming they weren't his personal choices.

I thought I made my point that just because Sakurai states something I don't take it at face value clear.

Fair enough. However, I do not believe he is lying here, considering having his hands tied by Nintendo makes the whole rex situation make a lot more sense.

Edit: something else to consider is that ultimate was gonna begin planning pretty quick after smash 4, and sakurai wouldn't have the luxury of being like "yeah, we didn't use the ballot data for this one because we're already working on the next one"

I think for Rex he wanted him on base but that just wasn't able to happen and for DLC they looked for games that were coming in the future. It's what they did with Corrin so that past insight I feel makes this situation still make sense. As for the ballot even if they didn't use the ballot for Ultimate they wouldn't have said the ballot wasn't used for 4. Like I get the need for not telling us the truth about the situation just that Sakurai can indeed mislead us about development. So with that in mind I don't think Nintendo went "we want these 5 as DLC" and Sakurai went "Well ok, oh hey neat I just so happen to love these guys". I think there is far more too the situation than that.