Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[EricTheGamerman]

So guys, I've got two cups of coffee and an Adderall in my guts and I'm ready to rock. Theorycraft time! Today's topic: how the **** did we get here? Let's dissect things:

Suddenly, Blythe! Wait... What?!

Blythe's reveal yesterday was jarring, to say the least. After months of frustration and dead ends even in insider circles, we got another promotional Fire Emblem character. The irony is palpable especially with Sakurai flat out saying it was a hard kept secret, even among Nintendo employees. Bravo to Sakurai and Nintendo for generating a situation where nobody knew what the golden **** was going on. So... How did we get here?

The Weird Nature of Pack 5

Blythe sticks out like a sore thumb for a ton of reasons. He's by far the "youngest" character added by a solid two years for starters. He was the tail end of a pack that was big third party icons. All these third party icons were also from companies not yet represented in Smash (Atlus, Armor Project, RARE/Microsoft, and SNK). Blythe's Mii costumes were another "dump" and thematically had nothing to do with Fire Emblem, super suspicious for a character that Nintendo literally owns. Based on all these factors, I strongly believe that Blythe was a swap out and I'll explain.

Returning to Power of Six Theory

Again, created by Judge Heihachi, Power of Six basically says that the original plan of the Fighter's Pass was to give every pack 6 Mii costumes and bring back all 15 Smash 4 third party DLC costumes. Our basic map of this is the following:

1. Joker (4 Persona costumes, Knuckles and Tails)

2. Hero (4 Dragon Quest costumes, Geno and Chocobo)

3. Banjo (Goemon, all 4 Megaman costumes, Sans or Rocket Grunt)

4. Terry (3 SNK costumes, Akira, Jacky, and Heihachi)

5. Some Dude™ (Two costumes from this company/franchise, Gil, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos)

All thematically line up, with Banjo being a "dump" of sorts. Going back to my most basic theory for 5 back in September, this suggests that 5 would be a swordsman from a yet unrepresented company in Smash Ultimate. My line of thinking took me through mostly Namco and Bethesda but what if I overthought the situation? Back in September, what swordsman was the most on people's minds including insiders? Ryu Hayabusa.

Where the **** is Ryu?!?

I have a theory on what happened. Brew/Shifty's contact was correct but in a Gematsu leak way. They both said this contact knew about Piranha Plant and Joker and I believe them. This contact probably did have access to the original plan for the Fighter's Pass but... That planned changed for some reason. If we swap out Byleth with Ryu, he fits exceptionally well. Thematically, he goes with everyone else and it makes a ton of sense. As established, he even fits my basic hypothesis of 5 being a swordsman from an unrepped company. That's real ****in' neato but where is Ryu now? I have my own theories.

Conflict Among Developers? Uh Oh, Stinky!

As you all have heard from me, Ryu was first heard in insider circles around December 2018. Based on ForsakenM's timeline theory, we've established that "Season 2" was probably decided around this time and planning began. We have strong evidence of this and one developer was not so subtle about their future Smash plans: Kamiya. Mid December 2018, Kamiya puts out a public poll asking which of his characters people would like to see in Smash. Three are Capcom characters and this is where problems began. Dante won by a significant margin and that made the matter worse. Why?

Tecmo/Team Ninja and Capcom supposedly absolutely hate each other, even going as far as refusing to work on projects if the other is involved. Supposedly they've even fought each other in court too. Notice how Hyrule Warriors didn't have any of the major characters from the Capcom Zelda games? Pretty sure this was deliberate. Throw on top of this that Kamiya is hardcore resented by a good percent of professional Japanese game developers and you have a recipe for disaster. The following is my own speculation and I don't know if it can be confirmed or not.

Tecmo finds out about plans for Dante DLC in Smash and is absolutely pissed. However you say "man, **** those guys" in Japanese, that's probably what happened. Tecmo makes an ultimatum: Sakurai drops Dante or they walk from Ultimate. Sakurai doesn't budge because Kamiya is a good friend of his. Tecmo yeets itself out of DLC. This all happens before Plant is even released. "Well... ****... We're now short a character... ****, ****, piss, etc" -Sakurai, probably. There's now a big gaping hole in DLC. What's the easiest character to plug up this hole with on short notice? A Nintendo character. Sakurai said it himself, he played a Three Lawn Chairs demo and thought "neat" and made his decision based on this. No third parties were involved so it was super easy to keep this underwraps.

In my own head, this makes sense and why my contact knew about a Three Hams Will Kill Him stage and spirits, along with 4 still MIA Mii costumes, one being male and female Byleth! I think this means 6 was originally planned as a bonus and they were going to get the Three Craft Breweries content! What happened is that something went screwy and Byleth was merely prrrrrrromoted because Three Howses was already planned to get a buttload of content anyways!

The Mysterious Nature of 6

Like I've said many times before, 4 character names were commonly heard in the later half of 2018 in insider circles, Lloyd, Ryu, Geno, and anemic Burt Reynolds. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think these were the original plan for 5-8. 6 was always going to be a thing, even before Season 2 was decided. Again, like Mewtwo, a super popular character tacked onto the end as a send off but then they changed their minds for additional DLC later on. 6 was originally planned to get the Trois Maisons content because, in theory, it's a Nintendo character so it fits. So, what does this mean? It means things got jumbled and I'll map it out.

-Ryu's originally 5. For whatever reason, Tecmo drops out of Ultimate DLC.

-Ryu is replaced the easiest way that Nintendo can, they promote the Tree Houses content they were originally going to release with 6. Byleth gets promoted from Mii costume to playable. Subconsciously, Isaac and Rex fans suddenly feel existential dread and don't know why.

-Byleth's Mii costumes are all from companies already contributing to the game: Ubisoft, Capcom, and Microsoft. Byleth gets the two remaining Megaman costumes that, in theory, were originally meant for Banjo. Four Megaman costumes split between 2 "dumps" makes sense in the light of the Power of Two theory, the changed plan that 2 Smash 4 third party costumes were coming per pack until they all 15 come back.

-6 is still happening but my theory is that it will be a mix of its original planned content and Ryu's. 6's Smash 4 DLC costumes, for example, are heavily implied to be Monster Hunter and Rathalos. 6 may get the other three TH Mii costumes and one of the two rumored indie costumes to originally be planned for 6. We now have a 6 pack, supporting Power of Six and Power of Two.

-What will 6's stage, music, and spirit board be? No clue but if they're all directly related to the character, I will be genuinely surprised.

-This all lines up with the information my contacts have given me about 6 and why one of them flat out says Ryu is totally out of the picture now.

What if I'm Wrong about 6?

I've definitely considered this. What if Ryu was merely pushed back? Tecmo came back and they hugged things out. I guess that could happen. Capcom and Tecmo realize that the real magic is the friends they've made along the way and make up. Ryu gets added back in as 6. This actually lines up with what three of my confidants (not contacts, confidants are people who share info with each other and not the source of said info) have shared me. Three have heard from their own sources that 6 is going to be Dante or "a very Dante like character." This last bit is especially weird to me. It fits the profile of a speedy and flashy character. Perhaps this is why one of my contacts thinks 6 is Geno but I seriously doubt it. Only character in the insider speculation sphere that fits this description is Ryu. If I'm wrong about El Hermano, this presents the following ideas: 6 is Ryu, Dante, Geno, or it's yet another situation like Blythe and everyone got jebaited again.

So, laying this all on the table, our probable spread for 6 is pretty good. 4 decently popular characters or a total rando is a pretty good way to start off Season 2 in my opinion.

Anybody who tries to use the Capcom/Koei Tecmo relationship to make a point about KT dropping out of Smash is desperately reaching at best. They literally gave Fatal Frame to base game Ultimate and also worked on the Byleth trailer yesterday. Not to mention, they literally knew Capcom was going to be in the game since the beginning of the project, so there's zero chance that they initially decided on that and then jumped ship. Smash takes way too many moving parts and decisions to just uproot an entire playable character of the DLC season like that and it just comes off as a weird attempt to justify Byleth when the justification is Sakurai saw the possibility for an interesting character in Byleth and Three Houses did very well for FE in general, so Nintendo and Sakurai jumped on it.

Koei Tecmo is a company that has business interests and understands how the industry works, not a high school student who can't handle being at the same party with someone with whom they got into an unrelated fight.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Two years is just enough time to fit more fire emblem characters in there

**** that! All 6 slots should be Fire Emblem characters. We need every damn Fire Emblem character in existence in Smash.

 

[Vector Victor]

Not only am I hoping for Geno for pass 2, I reached the point that I am demanding a new Zelda rep for pass 2 as well. One of the biggest franchises is being treated so haphazardly, its bizarre and confusing.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Not only am I hoping for Geno for pass 2, I reached the point that I am demanding a new Zelda rep for pass 2 as well. One of the biggest franchises is being treated so haphazardly, its bizarre and confusing.

What's that? You want another link permutation and five more fire emblem characters? Very well, here's toy link from the link's awakening remake. He has a slightly different moveset than toon link.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

What's that? You want another link permutation and five more fire emblem characters? Very well, here's toy link from the link's awakening remake. He has a slightly different moveset than toon link.

Sakurai: You guys want more Zelda reps? Well here is 8-Bit Link, Animated Series Link, and CDI Link. Have a nice day and thank you for watching.

 

[pinshadow]

So guys, I've got two cups of coffee and an Adderall in my guts and I'm ready to rock. Theorycraft time! Today's topic: how the **** did we get here? Let's dissect things:

Suddenly, Blythe! Wait... What?!

Blythe's reveal yesterday was jarring, to say the least. After months of frustration and dead ends even in insider circles, we got another promotional Fire Emblem character. The irony is palpable especially with Sakurai flat out saying it was a hard kept secret, even among Nintendo employees. Bravo to Sakurai and Nintendo for generating a situation where nobody knew what the golden **** was going on. So... How did we get here?

The Weird Nature of Pack 5

Blythe sticks out like a sore thumb for a ton of reasons. He's by far the "youngest" character added by a solid two years for starters. He was the tail end of a pack that was big third party icons. All these third party icons were also from companies not yet represented in Smash (Atlus, Armor Project, RARE/Microsoft, and SNK). Blythe's Mii costumes were another "dump" and thematically had nothing to do with Fire Emblem, super suspicious for a character that Nintendo literally owns. Based on all these factors, I strongly believe that Blythe was a swap out and I'll explain.

Was thinking the exact same thing about Byleth, albeit with a different outcome. Like you said, Byleth sticks out like a sore thumb for so many reasons.

1. Only first party character in a 5 person pass
2. From a 2019 game after Sakurai said characters like Rex and Springman were too new
3. No related mii costumes, nothing Nintendo related.
4. Feels really weird after Reggies comments about new game worlds and "characters you wouldn't expect to see in Smash" when Byleth is the most obvious pick in the Universe, I get hes the PR Guy but still.
5.THIS was meant to be the last character for Ultimate? I understand that some people are really happy with Byleth, but it just makes zero sense to end on the most boring character possible in the Ultimate smash game. Even Sakurai seems plenty aware of this with how he acts in the presentation, and I don't think its because he "hates the smash fanbase for hating FE".
6. Sakurai goes on a tangent in the video how he planned to give each fighter really unique mechanics. Joker has Arsene, Hero has crits,mp, and 25 specials, Banjo atleast has Wonderwing, a super unique invincible move with limited uses, and Terry has spotdodge moves, a Super Meter, and all his inputs. Byleth has....nothing really. Thats not even meant to be a knock on the character, but its super odd for him to show all the characters unique attributes and then just show Byleth shooting his bow in the corner and dying.
7. If Byleth is here to promote 3 Houses, why release them now? The game came out 6 months ago and already sold well, everyone interested already bought it. Very few people are going to be like "well I wasn't sure about getting FE, but now that they have a character in Smash I guess I have to".

So where am I going with this? I think that, whenever they originally decided to do post-pass DLC, the first thing they did is move whoever 5 was over to pass 2. I don't think Nintendo planned to go out with a whimper like this, and while I don't think whoever 5 would have been would be a gigantic bombshell, I still think it would be someone pretty big, and they decided it would be a better idea for them to start pass 2. Keep in mind, this would have been happenning as soon as they decided to do more DLC, so likely in December-February, so before the other negotiations happened around E3 like people speculated, so it makes sense that 5 would be replaced by a first-party character from a game releasing soon, and Sakurai likely chose Fire Emblem since his only other real option was another Pokemon.

 

[Spatulo]

Not only am I hoping for Geno for pass 2, I reached the point that I am demanding a new Zelda rep for pass 2 as well. One of the biggest franchises is being treated so haphazardly, its bizarre and confusing.

Zelda representation is weird cause we’ve got all the major recurring characters besides Impa and

*shudders*

Tingle

I know we all ask for the one-offs like Skull Kid and Midna but at this point I feel like they’d be almost out of place without the others. Like if they had started adding them earlier it’d have been manageable.

 

[Fatmanonice]

More reasons why I call bull**** on Blythe being planned from the get-go:

-Could have been released literally days after Three Houses was released worldwide; wasn't. Time frame wise, Blythe should have been 2 and Hero should have been 3 but they weren't.

-Koei Tecmo literally helped develop Three Houses but Blythe has no Tecmo Mii costumes or Fire Emblem Mii costumes? That's super suspicious.

-Keep in mind that with the previous two points in mind, Sakurai would have had to have finalized the plans for the Fighter's Pass in early November 2018. Sakurai himself shared that Joker, Hero, and Banjo were all being worked on in December. Why would a first party character, especially one for an upcoming summer release be pushed to the very back of the Fighter's Pass? Again, if always planned, Byleth would have been like Roy and Corrin and released super close to releases of their respective games. Byleth was released half a year later, significantly later than the peak sales of the game. With this in mind, Hero was still released BEFORE Dragon Quest XI S so still counted as a promotional character. Smash characters encourage sales. From a business standpoint, it makes no sense especially since the Smash fanbase has been pretty adamant about not wanting more Fire Emblem characters.

Again, I call bull****. Sakurai's a smart man and too many decisions made are the polar opposite in regards to this character. Great addition but if you try to convince me that a very obvious promotional character missed the game's release by half a year, is sandwiched with major third party icons, includes no Mii costumes related to it despite being first party, and was originally going to totally close off DLC despite overwhelming evidence that this would have been a catastrophic decision, I can't take that seriously. Blythe isn't unbelievable but all the circumstances surrounding him definitely are.

There's also no reason for this character to be kept this hard of a secret either for a mountain of reasons outside of knowing people would be pissed. Nintendo KNEW 5 was probably going to land like a wet sock because there was literally no reason to tell us there was going to be more DLC after 5 a full four and a half months before even revealing them. They could have done it during this presentation and that's the elephant in the room. The Fighter's Pass was naturally announced after the base roster was revealed, Season 2 was formally announced before 3, 4, and 5 were even released. Again, all of this is highly suspect with all things considered.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Zelda representation is weird cause we’ve got all the major recurring characters besides Impa and

*shudders*

Tingle

I know we all ask for the one-offs like Skull Kid and Midna but at this point I feel like they’d be almost out of place without the others. Like if they had started adding them earlier it’d have been manageable.

I don't want to face the reality that tingle might actually get in before fan favourites like midna and skull kid.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Zelda representation is weird cause we’ve got all the major recurring characters besides Impa and

*shudders*

Tingle

I know we all ask for the one-offs like Skull Kid and Midna but at this point I feel like they’d be almost out of place without the others. Like if they had started adding them earlier it’d have been manageable.

And Pig Ganon don't forget about him. Even though he is in Ganondorf's Final Smash, that version of Ganon has been in more games than Ganondorf so he definitely counts as contender among Zelda characters that should be in Smash.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

And Pig Ganon don't forget about him. Even though he is in Ganondorf's Final Smash, that version of Ganon has been in more games than Ganondorf so he definitely counts as contender among Zelda characters that should be in Smash.

They need to give oot ganondorf an oot moveset. His current one still sux. Still a captain falcon clone. Fite me.
Legacy XP did a wonderful job.

 

[Franco Geno]

They need to give oot ganondorf an oot moveset. His current one still sux. Still a captain falcon clone. Fite me.
Legacy XP did a wonderful job.

Not to mention that Legacy XP did a great job with Geno too

 

[RetrogamerMax]

They need to give oot ganondorf an oot moveset. His current one still sux. Still a captain falcon clone. Fite me.
Legacy XP did a wonderful job.

Pig Ganon specifically the Pig Ganon from the 2D games can fix that by giving us a version of Ganon with a completely original moveset. Though I would take Ganondorf with a magic moveset too if I could.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Not to mention that Legacy XP did a great job with Geno too

Everything but geno blast, which wasn't nearly flashy enough.

 

[Spatulo]

I don't want to face the reality that tingle might actually get in before fan favourites like midna and skull kid.

Tingle is another character like Pokey Minch in that I’d buy their dlc for the sake of punching them in the face

And Pig Ganon don't forget about him. Even though he is in Ganondorf's Final Smash, that version of Ganon has been in more games than Ganondorf so he definitely counts as contender among Zelda characters that should be in Smash.

Dude I’d totally buy some sort of wizard Ganon, be it pig or man. Maybe his new design in BotW 2 will lend itself to a new wizardy moveset? On that note...

They need to give oot ganondorf an oot moveset. His current one still sux. Still a captain falcon clone. Fite me.

Honestly at this point I think his moveset is kinda perfect, but maybe it’s because I like playing Falcon and Ike XD and at least OoT Ganondorf looks like he’d have a brawler moveset. Old Emperor Palpatine-ass TP Ganondorf looked kinda weird punching but OoT Dort is buff. Big magic punches and slams fit him, and Flame Choke is a perfect villain move, but I agree he could still use a Dead Man’s Volley move. Like I said, maybe BotW 2 will give us a second Ganon XD

 

[RetrogamerMax]

How Ganondorf should be in Smash.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Tingle is another character like Pokey Minch in that I’d buy their dlc for the sake of punching them in the face

Dude I’d totally buy some sort of wizard Ganon, be it pig or man. Maybe his new design in BotW 2 will lend itself to a new wizardy moveset? On that note...

Honestly at this point I think his moveset is kinda perfect, but maybe it’s because I like playing Falcon and Ike XD and at least OoT Ganondorf looks like he’d have a brawler moveset. Old Emperor Palpatine-ass TP Ganondorf looked kinda weird punching but OoT Dort is buff. Big magic punches and slams fit him, and Flame Choke is a perfect villain move, but I agree he could still use a Dead Man’s Volley move. Like I said, maybe BotW 2 will give us a second Ganon XD

I mean he's a mage, the only physical attack he uses is the earthquake punch (which they NEED to add) I want to do some ganonball, dammit.

Also use his OOT voice (I know they got the VA, but he's doing the grunty twilight princess voice that sucks. Give me that beefy HOOOOOOAAAAAAAGH!)

 

[Datboigeno]

For all the people that have come into the thread over the past several months specifically to **** on a specific poster’s credibility and intentions let me point this out:

-Fatman called 5 being a fantasy swordsman

-Fatman had information about FE three houses stage and spirit board

-Fatman had information about indie characters including cuphead who ended up being a costume. It’s very likely other indie reps on that list will continue to be the “deluxe costumes” that look way better than the average mii and come with a music track

-Fatman had information that pointed to there only being 6 more characters post FP

I mean yeah no Dragonborn or Waluigi announcement (yet) but when you take a step back Fatman did have individual pieces of a direct that Sakurai himself said was going to be a complete secret to even official Nintendo employees. They most definitely put out a misinformation campaign to hide Byleth. There’s no other way they would have been sure back in November that Byleth wouldn’t have leaked by January. This wound up bamboozling both sabi and verge the latter of which has officially been yeeted from credibility. Fatman did have correct information but some of the most correct things he held back publicly. I say all this not to try to convince people that Fatman is a 100% accurate leaker that’s going to tell you exactly what’s going to happen in this game, but just to show he is getting legit information from sources even during a time where Nintendo was making damn sure their **** didn’t leak. He’s not just making things up. But he is, as he’s said over and over again SPECULATING. It’s like trying to put together a puzzle with extra pieces thrown in that fit but are for something else entirely but sometimes seem like they could make sense. At this point i think it’s clear he’s not just spouting out bull**** just to get attention with any sense of malice whatsoever.

 

[DarkShadow20]

Zelda representation is weird cause we’ve got all the major recurring characters besides Impa and

*shudders*

Tingle

I know we all ask for the one-offs like Skull Kid and Midna but at this point I feel like they’d be almost out of place without the others. Like if they had started adding them earlier it’d have been manageable.

Wasn’t Skull Kid also in Ocarina of Time? So I would say him, Impa, Ganon, and Tingle would round out Zelda pretty well.

Fatmanonice So would you say that these might be our 6 fighters?

Teh Wah
Geno
Doom Slayer
Lloyd
Dante
Hayabusa

It hurts not having Crash or Master Chief on that list but it doesn’t seem like much has been heard about those two compared to the rest. They all have possible leaks or remaining Mii costumes from the same company. Of course if you’re right that Hayabusa was possibly removed, then one of those could have replaced him.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Wasn’t Skull Kid also in Ocarina of Time? So I would say him, Impa, Ganon, and Tingle would round out Zelda pretty well.

Exactly! This right here would round up the Zelda roster very nicely.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Exactly! This right here would round up the Zelda roster very nicely.

Replace tingle or Ganon (preferably both) with midna and it's perfect

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Replace tingle or Ganon (preferably both) with midna and it's perfect

Just replace Tingle with Midna and than we are good.

 

[ShinyReshiram]

Alright now that FP1 is over, give your report cards.

Joker - A+

One of the best Smash reveals ever, it sits right alongside Solid Snake from E3 2006. Persona is one of my favorite series today and I never would have thought we would see it in Smash Bros. He's really fun to play as, and my only real complaint is that the P5 Mementos is kind of hard on the eyes. Yellow and Blue are much nicer colors for the stage.

Hero - A+

The least hidden reveal ever. We knew about Erdrick since like the game launch and the first half of 2019 was nonstop discussion about him. The big surprise was that we got my favorite DQ Hero in Solo, but unfortunately lost Sofia and Femdrick. Loved the reveal, and the stage. The character is wacky to play as and all his spells are transitioned perfectly from the turn based DQ series.

Banjo - B+
This was one of the final frontiers of megasmash request (along with Ridley, Isaac(rip), K.Rool, and Geno), so its always cool to see one of those get in. However unlike the previous two DLC characters... I never had that much attachment to the series. I enjoyed BK back in the day, but it was never my favorite N64 game. The character is fun to play as, the music is great, but my GOD is Spiral Mountain an awful stage.

Terry - B-

Never played KoF or Fatal Fury or Samurai Showdown or any SNK fighter. However you can see a lot of love was poured into him; the Sakurai presentation of this was the best yet. Great music but the stage is forgettable. Character is pretty weird to play. Not sure I like command inputs in Smash Bros. I enjoy traditional fighters but doing charge moves in Smash is just unwieldy.

Byleth - D

Honestly, this pick does nothing for me. I really don't care about Byleth at all. Putting a D right now, may move to D+ or maybe even a C if I like the character and stage.

Overall

A- Only real miss for me was Byleth who is just a weird addition.

I can't do reports so instead I'll do quick ranking from the best to least favorite:

BANJO > Geese falling down because he failed to catch the invitational letter and landing in Tekken 7 instead > Joker > The Hero > Byleth

I watched Banjos reveal on /v/ and it was so crazy it literally made my day, because at some point the entire board was down, then it came back seconds later playing "Everyday I'm Shufflin" with random vacuum cleaner noises. Truly an epic reveal.

Overall: Bretty Good, what makes this entire pass really good is that Geno's costume is still in limbo.

 

[TableCloth]

I'm starting to warm up to the "swap" theory (mainly due to personal bias). I really doubt Sakurai would cancel Hayabusa mid development. Swapping him for FP2 makes more sense to me imo.


My personal predictions for FP2

FP2 actually ends Spring 2021 (not a character but man im still holding out hope thats just a placeholder)
Hayabusa
Doomslayer
Geno
Crash
Lloyd
Dante

I wouldn't be surprised to see another 1st party as well. Chief is a possibility as well (Banjo and Cuphead are now in Smash after all). And after those Ubi costumes I can't cut out Rayman for as unlikely as he is I can see him breaking out of the spirit realm. Those mii costumes are suspect for sure

 

[Droodle]

For all the people that have come into the thread over the past several months specifically to **** on a specific poster’s credibility and intentions let me point this out:

-Fatman called 5 being a fantasy swordsman

-Fatman had information about FE three houses stage and spirit board

-Fatman had information about indie characters including cuphead who ended up being a costume. It’s very likely other indie reps on that list will continue to be the “deluxe costumes” that look way better than the average mii and come with a music track

-Fatman had information that pointed to there only being 6 more characters post FP

I mean yeah no Dragonborn or Waluigi announcement (yet) but when you take a step back Fatman did have individual pieces of a direct that Sakurai himself said was going to be a complete secret to even official Nintendo employees. They most definitely put out a misinformation campaign to hide Byleth. There’s no other way they would have been sure back in November that Byleth wouldn’t have leaked by January. This wound up bamboozling both sabi and verge the latter of which has officially been yeeted from credibility. Fatman did have correct information but some of the most correct things he held back publicly. I say all this not to try to convince people that Fatman is a 100% accurate leaker that’s going to tell you exactly what’s going to happen in this game, but just to show he is getting legit information from sources even during a time where Nintendo was making damn sure their **** didn’t leak. He’s not just making things up. But he is, as he’s said over and over again SPECULATING. It’s like trying to put together a puzzle with extra pieces thrown in that fit but are for something else entirely but sometimes seem like they could make sense. At this point i think it’s clear he’s not just spouting out bull**** just to get attention with any sense of malice whatsoever.

Has Verge been yeeted though? At worst his final deconfirmation list was correct, and he even leaked the Mii costumes in their entirety. I mean, yeah, it was literally during the presentation; but he technically did leak more then any other leaker. The only other leaker it helped is arguably Zippo; who was still wishy-washy because he didn't know if Byleth was first party or not.

Regarding the whole Ryu was pushed back argument. I don't buy it. It makes 0 sense and the only reason why people bring it up is because of the "leak" which is 99% fake. Why would they even try to prevent Ryu from leaking, when he's been in a ton of them since before DLC even started. Yet Erdrick/Banjo remained completely in line with the schedule.

I think a lot of people here are in denial because Byleth broke a lot of their expectations; which was the entire point of the presentation.

Also they aren't starting a fighters Pass with controversial/unpopular. characters like Byleth or Ryu. They're starting with another big fan-favorite/big character just in general.

 

[Organization XIII]

Like I said, it doesn't mesh. Ryu has been heard by way too many people to be a coincidence, same with Chrom in Smash 4. Either Ryu is still in the game or was cut; there's no in-between. Too many people with solid track records have heard Ryu since December 2018 in context with Smash. Ryu isn't exactly an all star pick among the general Smash fanbase to begin with so him even being part of the conversation is very weird.

Every Smash game has characters everyone heard and then they don't happen. Ryu is character 6 trillion in the long line of rumored characters that didn't happen. Odds are just like all the ones before him the rumors weren't true.

 

[Datboigeno]

Some other thoughts:

1. a FE fighter in the pass officially obliterated the fan rule of third party characters only as ssbu dlc even before the second FP has begun and that’s great. A semi positive in Geno’s direction considering he’s a joint SE/Nintendo creation.

2. If I was an Springman or Rex/Pyrrha fan I would be so pissed right now. I didn’t even want either of them, but to be specifically told your character was “too new” for the FP and then a year later see an even newer character get in the pass? That’s some ice cold ****. And a character from an overrepresented franchise no less.

Has Verge been yeeted though? At worst his final deconfirmation list was correct, and he even leaked the Mii costumes in their entirety. I mean, yeah, it was literally during the presentation; but he technically did leak more then any other leaker. The only other leaker it helped is arguably Zippo; who was still wishy-washy because he didn't know if Byleth was first party or not.

He explicitly said FP5 wasn’t first-party. So either he was completely lying about knowing the character or was fed fake information and went with it.

 

[Fatmanonice]

And another thing... Let's pretend that Byleth really was the end of DLC. Let's look at the Mii costumes we got:

-Joker (4 Persona costumes, Knuckles and Tails)

-Hero (4 Dragon Quest costumes)

-Banjo (Zero, Protoman, Goemon, Rocket Grunt, and Sans)

-Terry (3 SNK costumes, Jacky and Akira)

-Blythe (Ezio, Rabbid, Cuphead, X, and EXE)

MIA Mii costumes:

-Geno and Chocobo
-Heihachi
-Gil and Lloyd
-Monster Hunter and Rathalos

Plug all these in to have an even number of 6 Mii costumes in each pack. You're left with 2 extra, implying two of these were cut. Now, let's switch over to Power of Six. If Blythe's pack was always planned from the beginning, it suggests the following Mii costumes:

-Monster Hunter, Rathalos, Gil, and Lloyd.

Thematically, it lines up. Joker's were all SEGA, Hero's were all Square, Banjo was a dump but had all 4 Megaman costumes in one place, and Terry's was all major fighting games. We're still left with thematic element that all these characters coincidentally are swordsmen from medieval fantasy RPGs. Fire Emblem technically falls under this and fits perfectly. Here's the thing though... None of these Mii costumes are in this pack and it's just as random Banjo. It makes sense for Banjo to be random because he's literally the property of a competitor, it makes zero sense for a first party character to be totally random and not even have a single first party costume. Again, Banjo had a first party Mii costume so "well, it all had to be third party" so, like a penguin, that **** doesn't fly.

In conclusion, I once again state that I absolutely do not believe that Blythe was planned all along. There's too many problems, especially when you bring the Mii costumes in and have to consider that two were cut, especially in the face that all the Mii costumes listed are pretty popular outside of arguably Gil.

 

[Spatulo]

Wasn’t Skull Kid also in Ocarina of Time? So I would say him, Impa, Ganon, and Tingle would round out Zelda pretty well.

Not gonna lie I repeatedly forget that Skull Kid was in OoT AND MAYBE Twilight Princess, so you got me there lol.

Also, just for the record, I know Sheik is an outlier to my statement, but I view them as being kinda grandfathered in, like Jigglypuff. Very significant at the time but kinda weird now.

 

[dolke]

I honestly think there was some significance to Sakurai's statement about Smash being a "celebration of gaming" near the end of the presentation yesterday. Especially with that segment being a little "one more thing..." at the very end. I'm thinking we're going to be seeing multiple genre-defining characters in these next six slots.

 

[DarkShadow20]

Also they aren't starting a fighters Pass with controversial/unpopular. characters like Byleth or Ryu. They're starting with another big fan-favorite/big character just in general.

They literally started pack 1 with Joker so...

 

[egaddmario]

Don't count out opportunism rather than deliberate action. It likely got away unleaked for the same reason Robin did in Smash 4. It was an in-house character that required no outside conversations and since it was announced in its own independent release directly from the Smash team it likely skipped a lot of the marketing folk characters usually go through.

What i gathered from this- if the character doesn't leak, it's from Fire Emblem. Robin, Corrin, and Byleth all didn't leak. Meaning Intelligent Systems is...well...intelligent.

 

[Droodle]

They literally started pack 1 with Joker so...

Yes, one of the more popular characters from recent years from a very popular game in 2017, or 2016 in Japan.

Maybe he wasn't heavily requested; but Joker's still in a different league of popularity conparitively to Ryu.

Also based around the rumours I've heard:
-Lloyd/Yuri, Dante, and Ryu have the most credible rumours surrounding them. Lloyd/Yuri in particular have some extra info backing them up too (Tales logo). Fatman thinks Dante is coming later, I believe he's #6. Ryu will probably be the last character revealed this year; but that's my own speculation.
-Waluigi/Geno are kinda wish washy. There are some rumours suggesting they'll promote, but there are also some rumours suggesting they won't. If the 1st character is Waluigi like Fatman thinks, well that'll settle that.

But really the only 3 I have 80% faith in are Dante, Lloyd/Yuri, and Ryu Hayabusa. For the other 3 consider them wildcards, with Geno and Waluigi being possibilities.

 

[DarkShadow20]

Yes, one of the more popular characters from recent years from a very popular game in 2017, or 2016 in Japan.

Maybe he wasn't heavily requested; but Joker's still in a different league of popularity conparitively to Ryu.

More popular maybe, but not more iconic. I don’t really think Ryu would be unpopular or controversial.

 

[Droodle]

More popular maybe, but not more iconic. I don’t really think Ryu would be unpopular or controversial.

If you've seen some Japanese polls surrounding him, Ryu is rated as one of the most expected picks; but conversely there aren't a ton of people that want him.

Sure he'd be better received then the likes of Byleth; but that's not a high bar. That said, Nintendo tends to front load their DLC based on popularity/shock factor (this is consistent with pretty much every Smash game).

 

[Deleted member]

Alright now that FP1 is over, give your report cards.

Joker - A+

One of the best Smash reveals ever, it sits right alongside Solid Snake from E3 2006. Persona is one of my favorite series today and I never would have thought we would see it in Smash Bros. He's really fun to play as, and my only real complaint is that the P5 Mementos is kind of hard on the eyes. Yellow and Blue are much nicer colors for the stage.

Hero - A+

The least hidden reveal ever. We knew about Erdrick since like the game launch and the first half of 2019 was nonstop discussion about him. The big surprise was that we got my favorite DQ Hero in Solo, but unfortunately lost Sofia and Femdrick. Loved the reveal, and the stage. The character is wacky to play as and all his spells are transitioned perfectly from the turn based DQ series.

Banjo - B+
This was one of the final frontiers of megasmash request (along with Ridley, Isaac(rip), K.Rool, and Geno), so its always cool to see one of those get in. However unlike the previous two DLC characters... I never had that much attachment to the series. I enjoyed BK back in the day, but it was never my favorite N64 game. The character is fun to play as, the music is great, but my GOD is Spiral Mountain an awful stage.

Terry - B-

Never played KoF or Fatal Fury or Samurai Showdown or any SNK fighter. However you can see a lot of love was poured into him; the Sakurai presentation of this was the best yet. Great music but the stage is forgettable. Character is pretty weird to play. Not sure I like command inputs in Smash Bros. I enjoy traditional fighters but doing charge moves in Smash is just unwieldy.

Byleth - D

Honestly, this pick does nothing for me. I really don't care about Byleth at all. Putting a D right now, may move to D+ or maybe even a C if I like the character and stage.

Overall

A- Only real miss for me was Byleth who is just a weird addition.

Oh we're doing this now? Hehehe do I have some hot and spicy takes. Spoilered for long.

Spoiler

Joker - C
A great way to start the pass, but also honestly indicative of the contents. Super Sakurai pick for no other reason than his own personal bias and not something more than a handful of Smash fans really wanted.

Hero - A
I don't have much attachment to Dragon Quest and wasn't thrilled to see a Square character who isn't Geno, but it sure beats having Sora and there's no way I can deny the legendary status of Dragon Quest. The fact that Smash was able to get four different versions of Hero and squeeze 8 music tracks out of Square is crazy. He's also fun to play, I have to admit.

Banjo - A
Want to hate me forever? Great, I've got you covered - if I didn't take my setup to tournaments to support my local/regional scenes, I wouldn't have purchased any fighters in this pass and that includes Banjo. I have no attachment to Banjo and definitely do not enjoy his playstyle. I am not fond of the aesthetic of Banjo Kazooie, the music, or the gameplay. In general, I hate him. Of the massive, longtime fan requests, he was my bottom of the barrel, but I give him an A because of what he meant to everyone else. The only character that truly deserved to be in the pass, the only character that truly spoke to the fans. I really hoped that he would be a sign of things to come, but no. Hopefully Nintendo learned from the reaction to his inclusion for Pass 2.

Terry - D
If you want to be even more confused, Terry is my favorite fighter in the pass, but he's not a great choice, especially to follow up legend of the Smash community Banjo, and legend of video gaming Dragon Quest. Another total Sakurai pick that calls into question "Nintendo chose the DLC". Would have been a great 5th fighter because we still would have gotten the Smash traditional "trash final pick" but at least he would be respectable. Instead...

Byleth - See me after class
There is no grade to put on this character. I'm not mad anymore, but still in disbelief. I watched the presentation up to the last second saying to myself "alright, when's the part where they say 'just kidding, here's the real fighter'"? I seriously didn't believe for a chunk of the presentation that Nintendo or Sakurai or both could be so tone deaf that they would put a Fire Emblem shill in the game and release them months after the game had come out. The presentation was funny, but at the same time there were so many jabs at us for hating sword fighters and for hating Fire Emblem, it's poor taste to be quite honest. The entire character is poor taste, for reasons I've enumerated in this thread. Complaining or being mad won't change the fact that they're here, though, so I choose not to be mad, but to enjoy myself in discussing why I hate the pick.

Overall - C
Mathematically speaking that's the average. It isn't really where my heart is for the pass, just where the number falls given the grades I've given all of these people.

It feels bad seeing all those dislikes on the presentation. Sakurai Presents is a fantastic set-up and I like seeing his involvement in the character. Byleth should have been a separate trailer so the livestreamreaction wouldn't be tarished.

I see this take a lot and I don't like it. If people are unhappy with the character then they have every right to dislike the presentation. No amount of "hard work" should sway people's opinion on what they do or don't like.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Not gonna lie I repeatedly forget that Skull Kid was in OoT AND MAYBE Twilight Princess, so you got me there lol.

Also, just for the record, I know Sheik is an outlier to my statement, but I view them as being kinda grandfathered in, like Jigglypuff. Very significant at the time but kinda weird now.

I sure didn't forget. When I think of Saria's Song I also think of Skull Kid because the first time you actually talk to him in Ocarina of Time is after you play Saria's Song in front of him and he gives you a Heart Piece.

 

[TX-55]

Alright now that FP1 is over, give your report cards.

Joker - A+

One of the best Smash reveals ever, it sits right alongside Solid Snake from E3 2006. Persona is one of my favorite series today and I never would have thought we would see it in Smash Bros. He's really fun to play as, and my only real complaint is that the P5 Mementos is kind of hard on the eyes. Yellow and Blue are much nicer colors for the stage.

Hero - A+

The least hidden reveal ever. We knew about Erdrick since like the game launch and the first half of 2019 was nonstop discussion about him. The big surprise was that we got my favorite DQ Hero in Solo, but unfortunately lost Sofia and Femdrick. Loved the reveal, and the stage. The character is wacky to play as and all his spells are transitioned perfectly from the turn based DQ series.

Banjo - B+
This was one of the final frontiers of megasmash request (along with Ridley, Isaac(rip), K.Rool, and Geno), so its always cool to see one of those get in. However unlike the previous two DLC characters... I never had that much attachment to the series. I enjoyed BK back in the day, but it was never my favorite N64 game. The character is fun to play as, the music is great, but my GOD is Spiral Mountain an awful stage.

Terry - B-

Never played KoF or Fatal Fury or Samurai Showdown or any SNK fighter. However you can see a lot of love was poured into him; the Sakurai presentation of this was the best yet. Great music but the stage is forgettable. Character is pretty weird to play. Not sure I like command inputs in Smash Bros. I enjoy traditional fighters but doing charge moves in Smash is just unwieldy.

Byleth - D

Honestly, this pick does nothing for me. I really don't care about Byleth at all. Putting a D right now, may move to D+ or maybe even a C if I like the character and stage.

Overall

A- Only real miss for me was Byleth who is just a weird addition.

Joker - A
Hero - A
Banjo - B+
Terry - S
Byleth - A+

 

[Deleted member]

Joker - A
Hero - A
Banjo - B+
Terry - S
Byleth - A+

Yikes.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Joker - A
Hero - A
Banjo - B+
Terry - S
Byleth - A+

Never seen a person dislike Banjo & Kazooie the most out of the whole pack. Honestly my reaction is exactly the opposite because Banjo & Kazooie were the only character I was happy to see in that whole lineup.