Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[NonSpecificGuy]

That would be really cool, though I wonder how they would go about that without tipping everyone off beforehand. I imagine you would want to keep that a surprise, right?

I don't think a Direct is necessarily unlikely for this month, to be fair. Yeah, we just got Smash news but crazier things have happened.

 

[EarlTamm]

I don't think a Direct is necessarily unlikely for this month, to be fair. Yeah, we just got Smash news but crazier things have happened.

Fair. It would certainly give a new context to Byleth, that's for sure. Will have to wait and see if that Direct pops up though.

 

[3DSNinja]

My Grades for the FP:
Joker:A+
Hero:D
Banjo:S
Terry: B-
Byleth: A-

 

[I.D.]

All they really need to do is start season 2 with a big name; and I'm pretty sure everyone but the most hardcore haters will mostly forget about the salt Byleth generated.

I'm not so sure. I think everyone assumed a Corrin situation was impossible since Sakurai commented on the impossibility of adding certain characters for being too recent, so they felt it would be money well spent no matter what. Now that we know how that turned out people are going to be warier.
I mean, what do you even get for purchasing the season pass instead of individual characters? A crappy mii costume you will never, ever use?

 

[EarlTamm]

I'm not so sure. I think everyone assumed a Corrin situation was impossible since Sakurai commented on the impossibility of adding certain characters for being too recent, so they felt it would be money well spent no matter what. Now that we know how that turned out people are going to be warier.
I mean, what do you even get for purchasing the season pass instead of individual characters? A crappy mii costume you will never, ever use?

It costs less to buy the pass overall.

Edit:
Guessing from the first pass. I don't think 2nd pass prices are out.

 

[OffBi]

I'm genuinely surprised that Nintendo and Sakurai didn't learn from the Corrin backlash.
Sure, three houses is good and all, but...
Why

 

[Lord Woomy]

I'm genuinely surprised that Nintendo and Sakurai didn't learn from the Corrin backlash.
Sure, three houses is good and all, but...
Why

I'm sure they did but I'm not sure they really cared

 

[I.D.]

It costs less to buy the pass overall.

Yeah, 5 bucks. You know how else you can save those 5 bucks? Not buying the FE character of the second pass

 

[EarlTamm]

Yeah, 5 bucks. You know how else you can save those 5 bucks? Not buying the FE character of the second pass

But that's less content for about the same amount of money. Really, the pass is a bet that you would be all the characters but one, which is a bet many are willing to take.

 

[ActualGarbage]

But that's less content for about the same amount of money. Really, the pass is a bet that you would be all the characters but one, which is a bet many are willing to take.

It's also a smart business plan. Reel customers in with the first two/three characters being bangers, and then everyone buys the pass because they think all the others will be just as good. Then you can release whatever character you want as the last or last couple since you already have their money, it's not like they can do anything about it.

 

[RingJ5]

Alright now that FP1 is over, give your report cards.

Joker - A+

One of the best Smash reveals ever, it sits right alongside Solid Snake from E3 2006. Persona is one of my favorite series today and I never would have thought we would see it in Smash Bros. He's really fun to play as, and my only real complaint is that the P5 Mementos is kind of hard on the eyes. Yellow and Blue are much nicer colors for the stage.

Hero - A+

The least hidden reveal ever. We knew about Erdrick since like the game launch and the first half of 2019 was nonstop discussion about him. The big surprise was that we got my favorite DQ Hero in Solo, but unfortunately lost Sofia and Femdrick. Loved the reveal, and the stage. The character is wacky to play as and all his spells are transitioned perfectly from the turn based DQ series.

Banjo - B+
This was one of the final frontiers of megasmash request (along with Ridley, Isaac(rip), K.Rool, and Geno), so its always cool to see one of those get in. However unlike the previous two DLC characters... I never had that much attachment to the series. I enjoyed BK back in the day, but it was never my favorite N64 game. The character is fun to play as, the music is great, but my GOD is Spiral Mountain an awful stage.

Terry - B-

Never played KoF or Fatal Fury or Samurai Showdown or any SNK fighter. However you can see a lot of love was poured into him; the Sakurai presentation of this was the best yet. Great music but the stage is forgettable. Character is pretty weird to play. Not sure I like command inputs in Smash Bros. I enjoy traditional fighters but doing charge moves in Smash is just unwieldy.

Byleth - D

Honestly, this pick does nothing for me. I really don't care about Byleth at all. Putting a D right now, may move to D+ or maybe even a C if I like the character and stage.

Overall

A- Only real miss for me was Byleth who is just a weird addition.

Joker: S

Tied with Master Chief for my #1 most wanted(Geno is immediately after), fits exactly with my playstyle, had amazing music, a great stage, and was an incredibly surprising reveal.

Hero: C

The most expected DLC character in Smash’s history, and they brought along a lot of RNG BS that I am very much not a fan of. Stage was neat, though.

Banjo: B

A great, long-awaited character that’s absolutely deserves their spot, and they have a bunch of great music as well. However, their stage is genuinely pretty awful thanks to its gimmick, and they aren’t really my kind of playstyle. Plus, as mentioned, when it comes to Microsoft characters I would personally have preferred Master Chief, though I fully realize that that’s an unpopular opinion.

Terry: C-

I know that there are people here who legitimately care for this character, but I just... can’t, in any way. For me, the only highlight was the music. Surely, though, fighter 5 would be much better, they couldn’t end on such an underwhelming-

Byleth: D-

Oh, **** off. As someone who has previously mained a bunch of FE characters in the past, we don’t need another, especially as the final character of this DLC pass. The most underwhelming, disappointing reveal possible in my opinion, and they saved it for the big, super-secret finale. A gigantic miss on Nintendo’s part.

Overall: C+

Joker gave me incredibly high hopes, and Banjo, while not being my first choice, still was a great character that kept things exciting... only for the final two to pretty much miss the mark entirely. It’s especially disappointing when they both were revealed alongside incredibly elaborate Mii Costumes that I would have taken as full characters over them in a heartbeat. If the final two full characters were actually Sans and Cuphead, that would unironically be an A+ from me overall.

At least Geno’s chances are looking better and better, especially with that Mii Costume stuff from July.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I understand that this wasn't Blyeth getting rumored/leaked to Fatman, but hot damn is the irony delicious.

My confidants can confirm this but I knew about a Three Houses stage and spirit board and I learned about this on Christmas Day. My contacts never heard Blythe as playable, ironically, and one contact heard that male and female Blythe were coming as Mii costumes, presumably with 6.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

But that's less content for about the same amount of money. Really, the pass is a bet that you would be all the characters but one, which is a bet many are willing to take.

Also good for guys like me who are gonna get every character anyway and only need to visit the eShop for Ultimate once.

 

[DutchPichu]

Also good for guys like me who are gonna get every character anyway and only need to visit the eShop for Ultimate once.

Exactly. I want Ultimate to be Ultimate, so I want every character whatsoever.

And for me it feels cheaper when I have to pay once for every pass, than 5/6 times for every character pass. And it's just lazy, right now I can just wait until the character is downloaded (well I don't even need to do that since Smash characters release in the night right here so I was always asleep), and I don't need to do a lot of eShop work before.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Finally made it through what seemed liked 20+ pages there.

Might as well put my reaction to Byleth while I'm at it.

"Oh, it's Byleth. I should've seen that coming."

Since I have Three Houses, I had considered that Byleth would be an interesting character for Smash, I'm fine with his addition (I'm not blown away by it) but I'm glad they made him even more interesting than I had anticipated.

I'm going to abuse that stupid down b the same way I abuse Ridley's down b.

However, I understand that people are disappointed that he wasn't the character everyone wanted (someone will always be disappointed; it's inevitable in Smash), but tell me I'm not alone in thinking that people are seriously overreacting to this. It's really not that big of a deal.

What's sad is that people are mostly upset over the character's series as opposed to the character's own merits. How is that fair? (I know some people legitimately dislike Byleth, but they're few and far between compared to all the other trash level judgements and hate the character is unreasonably receiving).

Hilariously, I had assumed that Waluigi would be the character to nuke the internet. I was sorely mistaken.

In other news, now we can start using those memetic aggressive teacher-isms during Smash.

"The bell doesn't dismiss you; I DO!"

"Class is in session!"

Welp, might as well leave these videos here:

Spoiler: language warning

Spoiler: More of the same

Spoiler: Last one, I promise

Now, on the topic of Geno, I know that some people believe this somehow negatively affects his chances. And to that point I ask, "How?" His chances aren't affected by this reveal no matter who the character could've been. It literally could have been ANYONE, and it wouldn't have changed a thing from what we were already expecting.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Why do you feel like if we're getting an AT, that it will only be one AT, and the door will be shut for others? Do you perhaps think that Sakurai would shut down the prospect himself in said upgrades reveal video? Like for instance if it were Isaac(let a man dream lmao) he'd just go out there and say "This is a one time thing" ? Or is it more so you just find it insanely unlikely overall? And to add to that, if we were for instance, to get a volume 3 which would contain 4 more to round it all off at 16 dlc's in total(counting plant), do you think the odds of more potential upgrades would go back up if we get just one in volume 2?

Apologies for the ton of questions, I was just reading that and had a lot to think on with your comments there.

At this time, we don't know if "Season 3" will even be a thing. Yes, the 16 dummy slots have been a thing since last January but recent events call that into question. We know the game crashes once these 16 (now 10) are filled. Best case scenario: Season 2 ends in 2021 and there's a Season 3 in 2022. That's two years from now and keep in mind that Sakurai has been continuously working on Smash projects since about 2011. When Season 2 is over, that's a full decade of work on Smash and I will be genuinely surprised if Sakurai is up for a Round 3. Like with Season 2, this could change but, like Sakurai said, Season 2 was finalized recently so the decision for the very last character was probably made in December (one reason why I think it may wind up being Master Chief). The man's got a two year plan in mind and that's a hell of a dedication for any project, never mind Ultimate itself started in 2015. This all said, until more evidence comes out, I'm going to stick to these being the final 6.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Double post. Smashboards, why?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Triple post. Really Smashboards?

 

[Arcadenik]

I really hope they DONT push a pokemon on us. I hope they realized Incineroar was enough and we dont need compulsory mons for each and every game. Please don't prove me wrong Nintendo.

You know they will.

Since we got the obligatory newest Fire Emblem game rep, I have no doubt in my mind that we will get the obligatory newest Pokémon generation rep.

I just wish that they would add a Pokémon who has a long established fanbase like Meowth instead of a brand new Pokémon they hope might be the new Lucario.

I have been given full permission by Fatman in private to share this piece of info publicly.

Awhile back, I was told in private a list of characters that were hard deconfirmed for Ultimate. From the words of it, a list of characters that were “pitched to Sakurai, but shot down immediately.”

And low and behold, Cuphead was on that list. That perfectly explains the Mii Costume revealed today.

I know I was critical of Fatman today, but he was right on the money with that one. Definitely a point for his credibility, coming from someone who has disagreed with him a ton.

That is all I will say, I was told to keep the rest of the names private.

Hmm... interesting... now I am wondering... did Nintendo suggest Team Rocket to Sakurai and he turned them down... and that is why we have Team Rocket Mii costume?

Let’s assume for a minute that Nintendo really did suggest Team Rocket to Sakurai, what did Nintendo have in mind when they suggested Team Rocket for Smash?

This? Or... this?

I am hoping it is the latter. After all, they did revive video game versions of Jessie and James for Pokémon Let’s Go. And they did make Gigantamax Meowth for Sword/Shield (a potential Final Smash for Meowth) and it happens to have the Japanese anime voice... implying it is supposed to be Team Rocket Meowth from Pokémon Let’s Go. My evidence. (Fun fact: The voice actress also voices for Ivysaur in Smash.) It was almost as if Nintendo was setting the stage for Jessie, James, and Meowth.

Surely Sakurai has to know that being a Mii Brawler does not truly show what a Pokémon Trainer can do in Smash. Pokémon Trainers don’t fight. They send out their Pokémon to do the fighting. If Team Rocket were a real character in Smash, they would have used their Pokémon like Meowth, Ekans, and Koffing.

 

[volbound1700]

*Sakurai comes back on screen.*

Sakurai: Here’s Pink Gold Byleth. *Flips the bird at fans and laughs presentation over.*

There is a part of me that wants to see that happen just to laugh about it

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

To be more sincere (because I love my fair share of vitriol) As a Geno fan, I understand how it feels to want a character that a lot of people are gonna hate you for, and I respect that there are fans of FE three houses, and fans of Byleth that are absolutely tickled to play as him/her. And I won't knock you for your preference, despite my misgivings. This one definitely looks to have a more interesting moveset than your standard FE fare (Then again, so did Corrin, and that changed very little) I think people should absolutely be respectful of the Byleth fans, however that should go two ways. It's impossible to act as though there isn't a very real and latent frustration with the series as a whole, especially when you consider it's representation vs other big series' (and yes, I know, mario has the most reps out of any series, but consider also that it is THE nintendo series. Mario is the mickey friggin mouse of video games). At the end of the day, I feel like we can all come to a compromise and have respect for one anothers feelings, and I think we can absolutely all agree that..

Spoiler: thing we can all agree on

the people who post hoes mad, can get bent.

 

[RingJ5]

Huh, I just noticed: Swap Banjo and Terry around, and this exactly mirrors the Smash 4 DLC.

We start off with a character that was apparently meant for the base game(Custom moves for Mewtwo, Guidance dialog for Plant) and was cut for a pre-order/early purchase bonus.

Next, we have two returning characters in 4, and two returning companies in Ultimate, both being RPG characters, with the second one being an anime swordfighter.

After that, we have a fighting game rep that no one particularly asked for and heavily uses command inputs, however on the other hand we also get an insane dream pick that many thought would be completely impossible.

And after that? The newest Fire Emblem protagonist, with male and female alts.

After realizing this, my question is... who’s going to be the Bayonetta to start off the next pass? Certainly can’t be a character that people actively want, so I wouldn’t expect Chief or Slayer.

Edit: Thinking about it, one could also make the argument that Joker simultaneously serves as the Bayonetta equivalent, being an M-rated gun-wielding character published yet not developed by Sega that people absolutely never thought would get in for various reasons.

 

[RingJ5]

Goddamnit Smashboards, double-post

 

[OffBi]

To be more sincere (because I love my fair share of vitriol) As a Geno fan, I understand how it feels to want a character that a lot of people are gonna hate you for, and I respect that there are fans of FE three houses, and fans of Byleth that are absolutely tickled to play as him/her. And I won't knock you for your preference, despite my misgivings. This one definitely looks to have a more interesting moveset than your standard FE fare (Then again, so did Corrin, and that changed very little) I think people should absolutely be respectful of the Byleth fans, however that should go two ways. It's impossible to act as though there isn't a very real and latent frustration with the series as a whole, especially when you consider it's representation vs other big series' (and yes, I know, mario has the most reps out of any series, but consider also that it is THE nintendo series. Mario is the mickey friggin mouse of video games). At the end of the day, I feel like we can all come to a compromise and have respect for one anothers feelings, and I think we can absolutely all agree that..

Spoiler: thing we can all agree on

the people who post hoes mad, can get bent.

I absolutely agree with hoes mad posts, those people should choke on a ****

 

[Turtlar]

Alright now that FP1 is over, give your report cards.

Joker - A+

One of the best Smash reveals ever, it sits right alongside Solid Snake from E3 2006. Persona is one of my favorite series today and I never would have thought we would see it in Smash Bros. He's really fun to play as, and my only real complaint is that the P5 Mementos is kind of hard on the eyes. Yellow and Blue are much nicer colors for the stage.

Hero - A+

The least hidden reveal ever. We knew about Erdrick since like the game launch and the first half of 2019 was nonstop discussion about him. The big surprise was that we got my favorite DQ Hero in Solo, but unfortunately lost Sofia and Femdrick. Loved the reveal, and the stage. The character is wacky to play as and all his spells are transitioned perfectly from the turn based DQ series.

Banjo - B+
This was one of the final frontiers of megasmash request (along with Ridley, Isaac(rip), K.Rool, and Geno), so its always cool to see one of those get in. However unlike the previous two DLC characters... I never had that much attachment to the series. I enjoyed BK back in the day, but it was never my favorite N64 game. The character is fun to play as, the music is great, but my GOD is Spiral Mountain an awful stage.

Terry - B-

Never played KoF or Fatal Fury or Samurai Showdown or any SNK fighter. However you can see a lot of love was poured into him; the Sakurai presentation of this was the best yet. Great music but the stage is forgettable. Character is pretty weird to play. Not sure I like command inputs in Smash Bros. I enjoy traditional fighters but doing charge moves in Smash is just unwieldy.

Byleth - D

Honestly, this pick does nothing for me. I really don't care about Byleth at all. Putting a D right now, may move to D+ or maybe even a C if I like the character and stage.

Overall

A- Only real miss for me was Byleth who is just a weird addition.

Lurker report here.

Joker - D

I'm all for third party characters, and I'm even open to some who don't have much/any Nintendo connections, but Joker is not on that short list. Call it gatekeeping, but it's just how it is.

Hero - A

Dragon Quest is such an iconic game series, and it was really overdue for a Smash debut. Slime probably would have been more unique, but what we ultimately got was pretty awesome.

Banjo - S

Words can't describe how happy I was to see a Microsoft-owned Rareware character finally show up in Smash. He was my most wanted character, alongside Geno. I hope this opens the door for other classic Rareware characters like Conker and Joanna Dark, but I'm not holding my breath.

Terry - B

Definitely not someone I expected to show up, but was a pretty cool seeing SNK and Neo Geo get some representation in Smash Bros.

Byleth - F

Holy **** why? Despite having been over FE characters in Smash since Smash 4, I was pretty okay with the idea of Edelgard or one of the other lords getting in, but Byleth was probably one of, if not the worst choice for a first party character.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I'm genuinely surprised that Nintendo and Sakurai didn't learn from the Corrin backlash.
Sure, three houses is good and all, but...
Why

why?
Because they want Byleth in smash, pretty simple

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

why?
Because they want Byleth in smash, pretty simple

Only way they'll learn is if people vote with their wallets. But let's be honest, most of the people who didn't want fire emblem have no spine and will buy the character anyway.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So guys, I've got two cups of coffee and an Adderall in my guts and I'm ready to rock. Theorycraft time! Today's topic: how the **** did we get here? Let's dissect things:

Suddenly, Blythe! Wait... What?!

Blythe's reveal yesterday was jarring, to say the least. After months of frustration and dead ends even in insider circles, we got another promotional Fire Emblem character. The irony is palpable especially with Sakurai flat out saying it was a hard kept secret, even among Nintendo employees. Bravo to Sakurai and Nintendo for generating a situation where nobody knew what the golden **** was going on. So... How did we get here?

The Weird Nature of Pack 5

Blythe sticks out like a sore thumb for a ton of reasons. He's by far the "youngest" character added by a solid two years for starters. He was the tail end of a pack that was big third party icons. All these third party icons were also from companies not yet represented in Smash (Atlus, Armor Project, RARE/Microsoft, and SNK). Blythe's Mii costumes were another "dump" and thematically had nothing to do with Fire Emblem, super suspicious for a character that Nintendo literally owns. Based on all these factors, I strongly believe that Blythe was a swap out and I'll explain.

Returning to Power of Six Theory

Again, created by Judge Heihachi, Power of Six basically says that the original plan of the Fighter's Pass was to give every pack 6 Mii costumes and bring back all 15 Smash 4 third party DLC costumes. Our basic map of this is the following:

1. Joker (4 Persona costumes, Knuckles and Tails)

2. Hero (4 Dragon Quest costumes, Geno and Chocobo)

3. Banjo (Goemon, all 4 Megaman costumes, Sans or Rocket Grunt)

4. Terry (3 SNK costumes, Akira, Jacky, and Heihachi)

5. Some Dude™ (Two costumes from this company/franchise, Gil, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos)

All thematically line up, with Banjo being a "dump" of sorts. Going back to my most basic theory for 5 back in September, this suggests that 5 would be a swordsman from a yet unrepresented company in Smash Ultimate. My line of thinking took me through mostly Namco and Bethesda but what if I overthought the situation? Back in September, what swordsman was the most on people's minds including insiders? Ryu Hayabusa.

Where the **** is Ryu?!?

I have a theory on what happened. Brew/Shifty's contact was correct but in a Gematsu leak way. They both said this contact knew about Piranha Plant and Joker and I believe them. This contact probably did have access to the original plan for the Fighter's Pass but... That planned changed for some reason. If we swap out Byleth with Ryu, he fits exceptionally well. Thematically, he goes with everyone else and it makes a ton of sense. As established, he even fits my basic hypothesis of 5 being a swordsman from an unrepped company. That's real ****in' neato but where is Ryu now? I have my own theories.

Conflict Among Developers? Uh Oh, Stinky!

As you all have heard from me, Ryu was first heard in insider circles around December 2018. Based on ForsakenM's timeline theory, we've established that "Season 2" was probably decided around this time and planning began. We have strong evidence of this and one developer was not so subtle about their future Smash plans: Kamiya. Mid December 2018, Kamiya puts out a public poll asking which of his characters people would like to see in Smash. Three are Capcom characters and this is where problems began. Dante won by a significant margin and that made the matter worse. Why?

Tecmo/Team Ninja and Capcom supposedly absolutely hate each other, even going as far as refusing to work on projects if the other is involved. Supposedly they've even fought each other in court too. Notice how Hyrule Warriors didn't have any of the major characters from the Capcom Zelda games? Pretty sure this was deliberate. Throw on top of this that Kamiya is hardcore resented by a good percent of professional Japanese game developers and you have a recipe for disaster. The following is my own speculation and I don't know if it can be confirmed or not.

Tecmo finds out about plans for Dante DLC in Smash and is absolutely pissed. However you say "man, **** those guys" in Japanese, that's probably what happened. Tecmo makes an ultimatum: Sakurai drops Dante or they walk from Ultimate. Sakurai doesn't budge because Kamiya is a good friend of his. Tecmo yeets itself out of DLC. This all happens before Plant is even released. "Well... ****... We're now short a character... ****, ****, piss, etc" -Sakurai, probably. There's now a big gaping hole in DLC. What's the easiest character to plug up this hole with on short notice? A Nintendo character. Sakurai said it himself, he played a Three Lawn Chairs demo and thought "neat" and made his decision based on this. No third parties were involved so it was super easy to keep this underwraps.

In my own head, this makes sense and why my contact knew about a Three Hams Will Kill Him stage and spirits, along with 4 still MIA Mii costumes, one being male and female Byleth! I think this means 6 was originally planned as a bonus and they were going to get the Three Craft Breweries content! What happened is that something went screwy and Byleth was merely prrrrrrromoted because Three Howses was already planned to get a buttload of content anyways!

The Mysterious Nature of 6

Like I've said many times before, 4 character names were commonly heard in the later half of 2018 in insider circles, Lloyd, Ryu, Geno, and anemic Burt Reynolds. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think these were the original plan for 5-8. 6 was always going to be a thing, even before Season 2 was decided. Again, like Mewtwo, a super popular character tacked onto the end as a send off but then they changed their minds for additional DLC later on. 6 was originally planned to get the Trois Maisons content because, in theory, it's a Nintendo character so it fits. So, what does this mean? It means things got jumbled and I'll map it out.

-Ryu's originally 5. For whatever reason, Tecmo drops out of Ultimate DLC.

-Ryu is replaced the easiest way that Nintendo can, they promote the Tree Houses content they were originally going to release with 6. Byleth gets promoted from Mii costume to playable. Subconsciously, Isaac and Rex fans suddenly feel existential dread and don't know why.

-Byleth's Mii costumes are all from companies already contributing to the game: Ubisoft, Capcom, and Microsoft. Byleth gets the two remaining Megaman costumes that, in theory, were originally meant for Banjo. Four Megaman costumes split between 2 "dumps" makes sense in the light of the Power of Two theory, the changed plan that 2 Smash 4 third party costumes were coming per pack until they all 15 come back.

-6 is still happening but my theory is that it will be a mix of its original planned content and Ryu's. 6's Smash 4 DLC costumes, for example, are heavily implied to be Monster Hunter and Rathalos. 6 may get the other three TH Mii costumes and one of the two rumored indie costumes to originally be planned for 6. We now have a 6 pack, supporting Power of Six and Power of Two.

-What will 6's stage, music, and spirit board be? No clue but if they're all directly related to the character, I will be genuinely surprised.

-This all lines up with the information my contacts have given me about 6 and why one of them flat out says Ryu is totally out of the picture now.

What if I'm Wrong about 6?

I've definitely considered this. What if Ryu was merely pushed back? Tecmo came back and they hugged things out. I guess that could happen. Capcom and Tecmo realize that the real magic is the friends they've made along the way and make up. Ryu gets added back in as 6. This actually lines up with what three of my confidants (not contacts, confidants are people who share info with each other and not the source of said info) have shared me. Three have heard from their own sources that 6 is going to be Dante or "a very Dante like character." This last bit is especially weird to me. It fits the profile of a speedy and flashy character. Perhaps this is why one of my contacts thinks 6 is Geno but I seriously doubt it. Only character in the insider speculation sphere that fits this description is Ryu. If I'm wrong about El Hermano, this presents the following ideas: 6 is Ryu, Dante, Geno, or it's yet another situation like Blythe and everyone got jebaited again.

So, laying this all on the table, our probable spread for 6 is pretty good. 4 decently popular characters or a total rando is a pretty good way to start off Season 2 in my opinion.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Only way they'll learn is if people vote with their wallets. But let's be honest, most of the people who didn't want fire emblem have no spine and will buy the character anyway.

Everyone already bought the whole pass so thats not gonna work. Me, Im just selectively buying who I want. Plus how can I not Buy byleth with that amazing music coming with him

 

[Vector Victor]

It feels bad seeing all those dislikes on the presentation. Sakurai Presents is a fantastic set-up and I like seeing his involvement in the character. Byleth should have been a separate trailer so the livestreamreaction wouldn't be tarished.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

So guys, I've got two cups of coffee and an Adderall in my guts and I'm ready to rock. Theorycraft time! Today's topic: how the **** did we get here? Let's dissect things:

Suddenly, Blythe! Wait... What?!

Blythe's reveal yesterday was jarring, to say the least. After months of frustration and dead ends even in insider circles, we got another promotional Fire Emblem character. The irony is palpable especially with Sakurai flat out saying it was a hard kept secret, even among Nintendo employees. Bravo to Sakurai and Nintendo for generating a situation where nobody knew what the golden **** was going on. So... How did we get here?

The Weird Nature of Pack 5

Blythe sticks out like a sore thumb for a ton of reasons. He's by far the "youngest" character added by a solid two years for starters. He was the tail end of a pack that was big third party icons. All these third party icons were also from companies not yet represented in Smash (Atlus, Armor Project, RARE/Microsoft, and SNK). Blythe's Mii costumes were another "dump" and thematically had nothing to do with Fire Emblem, super suspicious for a character that Nintendo literally owns. Based on all these factors, I strongly believe that Blythe was a swap out and I'll explain.

Returning to Power of Six Theory

Again, created by Judge Heihachi, Power of Six basically says that the original plan of the Fighter's Pass was to give every pack 6 Mii costumes and bring back all 15 Smash 4 third party DLC costumes. Our basic map of this is the following:

1. Joker (4 Persona costumes, Knuckles and Tails)

2. Hero (4 Dragon Quest costumes, Geno and Chocobo)

3. Banjo (Goemon, all 4 Megaman costumes, Sans or Rocket Grunt)

4. Terry (3 SNK costumes, Akira, Jacky, and Heihachi)

5. Some Dude™ (Two costumes from this company/franchise, Gil, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos)

All thematically line up, with Banjo being a "dump" of sorts. Going back to my most basic theory for 5 back in September, this suggests that 5 would be a swordsman from a yet unrepresented company in Smash Ultimate. My line of thinking took me through mostly Namco and Bethesda but what if I overthought the situation? Back in September, what swordsman was the most on people's minds including insiders? Ryu Hayabusa.

Where the **** is Ryu?!?

I have a theory on what happened. Brew/Shifty's contact was correct but in a Gematsu leak way. They both said this contact knew about Piranha Plant and Joker and I believe them. This contact probably did have access to the original plan for the Fighter's Pass but... That planned changed for some reason. If we swap out Byleth with Ryu, he fits exceptionally well. Thematically, he goes with everyone else and it makes a ton of sense. As established, he even fits my basic hypothesis of 5 being a swordsman from an unrepped company. That's real ****in' neato but where is Ryu now? I have my own theories.

Conflict Among Developers? Uh Oh, Stinky!

As you all have heard from me, Ryu was first heard in insider circles around December 2018. Based on ForsakenM's timeline theory, we've established that "Season 2" was probably decided around this time and planning began. We have strong evidence of this and one developer was not so subtle about their future Smash plans: Kamiya. Mid December 2018, Kamiya puts out a public poll asking which of his characters people would like to see in Smash. Three are Capcom characters and this is where problems began. Dante won by a significant margin and that made the matter worse. Why?

Tecmo/Team Ninja and Capcom supposedly absolutely hate each other, even going as far as refusing to work on projects if the other is involved. Supposedly they've even fought each other in court too. Notice how Hyrule Warriors didn't have any of the major characters from the Capcom Zelda games? Pretty sure this was deliberate. Throw on top of this that Kamiya is hardcore resented by a good percent of professional Japanese game developers and you have a recipe for disaster. The following is my own speculation and I don't know if it can be confirmed or not.

Tecmo finds out about plans for Dante DLC in Smash and is absolutely pissed. However you say "man, **** those guys" in Japanese, that's probably what happened. Tecmo makes an ultimatum: Sakurai drops Dante or they walk from Ultimate. Sakurai doesn't budge because Kamiya is a good friend of his. Tecmo yeets itself out of DLC. This all happens before Plant is even released. "Well... ****... We're now short a character... ****, ****, piss, etc" -Sakurai, probably. There's now a big gaping hole in DLC. What's the easiest character to plug up this hole with on short notice? A Nintendo character. Sakurai said it himself, he played a Three Lawn Chairs demo and thought "neat" and made his decision based on this. No third parties were involved so it was super easy to keep this underwraps.

In my own head, this makes sense and why my contact knew about a Three Hams Will Kill Him stage and spirits, along with 4 still MIA Mii costumes, one being male and female Byleth! I think this means 6 was originally planned as a bonus and they were going to get the Three Craft Breweries content! What happened is that something went screwy and Byleth was merely prrrrrrromoted because Three Howses was already planned to get a buttload of content anyways!

The Mysterious Nature of 6

Like I've said many times before, 4 character names were commonly heard in the later half of 2018 in insider circles, Lloyd, Ryu, Geno, and anemic Burt Reynolds. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think these were the original plan for 5-8. 6 was always going to be a thing, even before Season 2 was decided. Again, like Mewtwo, a super popular character tacked onto the end as a send off but then they changed their minds for additional DLC later on. 6 was originally planned to get the Trois Maisons content because, in theory, it's a Nintendo character so it fits. So, what does this mean? It means things got jumbled and I'll map it out.

-Ryu's originally 5. For whatever reason, Tecmo drops out of Ultimate DLC.

-Ryu is replaced the easiest way that Nintendo can, they promote the Tree Houses content they were originally going to release with 6. Byleth gets promoted from Mii costume to playable. Subconsciously, Isaac and Rex fans suddenly feel existential dread and don't know why.

-Byleth's Mii costumes are all from companies already contributing to the game: Ubisoft, Capcom, and Microsoft. Byleth gets the two remaining Megaman costumes that, in theory, were originally meant for Banjo. Four Megaman costumes split between 2 "dumps" makes sense in the light of the Power of Two theory, the changed plan that 2 Smash 4 third party costumes were coming per pack until they all 15 come back.

-6 is still happening but my theory is that it will be a mix of its original planned content and Ryu's. 6's Smash 4 DLC costumes, for example, are heavily implied to be Monster Hunter and Rathalos. 6 may get the other three TH Mii costumes and one of the two rumored indie costumes to originally be planned for 6. We now have a 6 pack, supporting Power of Six and Power of Two.

-What will 6's stage, music, and spirit board be? No clue but if they're all directly related to the character, I will be genuinely surprised.

-This all lines up with the information my contacts have given me about 6 and why one of them flat out says Ryu is totally out of the picture now.

What if I'm Wrong about 6?

I've definitely considered this. What if Ryu was merely pushed back? Tecmo came back and they hugged things out. I guess that could happen. Capcom and Tecmo realize that the real magic is the friends they've made along the way and make up. Ryu gets added back in as 6. This actually lines up with what three of my confidants (not contacts, confidants are people who share info with each other and not the source of said info) have shared me. Three have heard from their own sources that 6 is going to be Dante or "a very Dante like character." This last bit is especially weird to me. It fits the profile of a speedy and flashy character. Perhaps this is why one of my contacts thinks 6 is Geno but I seriously doubt it. Only character in the insider speculation sphere that fits this description is Ryu. If I'm wrong about El Hermano, this presents the following ideas: 6 is Ryu, Dante, Geno, or it's yet another situation like Blythe and everyone got jebaited again.

So, laying this all on the table, our probable spread for 6 is pretty good. 4 decently popular characters or a total rando is a pretty good way to start off Season 2 in my opinion.

Two years is just enough time to fit more fire emblem characters in there

 

[Organization XIII]

Look maybe Byleth sticks out but perhaps that only because we forgot Nintendo likes to make sure they have a shill pick or two. Let's not forget the base of Ultimate people like to throw around is for fans also gave us Inceniroar and Isabelle. I think Byleth was intentional. He was the last person. And to think some conspiracy involving Capcom and Tecmo lead to Sakurai changing a mii costume to playable at the last minute seems way too silly. Like it or not this was likely the plan for a long time. Was it a bad plan? Yes, but still the plan.

 

[Deleted member]

why?
Because they want Byleth in smash, pretty simple

Small minority but okay.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Everyone already bought the whole pass so thats not gonna work. Me, Im just selectively buying who I want. Plus how can I not Buy byleth with that amazing music coming with him

I didn't buy the pass because I can spare an extra five dollars for the ability to choose whether or not to buy the DLC. selling the fighters pass with no info is shady as hell, and I don't trust anyone with 25 dollars for something I *might* end up liking.

It feels bad seeing all those dislikes on the presentation. Sakurai Presents is a fantastic set-up and I like seeing his involvement in the character. Byleth should have been a separate trailer so the livestreamreaction wouldn't be tarished.

I find myself far less sympathetic. I always appreciate Sakurai's enthusiasm, but they knew they were on thin ice with fire emblem.

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Whoops, double post

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I didn't buy the pass because I can spare an extra five dollars for the ability to choose whether or not to buy the DLC. selling the fighters pass with no info is shady as hell, and I don't trust anyone with 25 dollars for something I *might* end up liking.

Yeah, Thats the same thing I think too. I dont like that they keep these things a suprise for whatever reason. Doesnt even seem like Sakurai likes it either. Idk why they dont just tell us

 

[Dynamic Worlok]

Yeah, Thats the same thing I think too. I dont like that they keep these things a suprise for whatever reason. Doesnt even seem like Sakurai likes it either. Idk why they dont just tell us

Because it's far more profitable to string people along for another two years.

 

[Spatulo]

So guys, I've got two cups of coffee and an Adderall in my guts and I'm ready to rock. Theorycraft time! Today's topic: how the **** did we get here? Let's dissect things:

Suddenly, Blythe! Wait... What?!

Blythe's reveal yesterday was jarring, to say the least. After months of frustration and dead ends even in insider circles, we got another promotional Fire Emblem character. The irony is palpable especially with Sakurai flat out saying it was a hard kept secret, even among Nintendo employees. Bravo to Sakurai and Nintendo for generating a situation where nobody knew what the golden **** was going on. So... How did we get here?

The Weird Nature of Pack 5

Blythe sticks out like a sore thumb for a ton of reasons. He's by far the "youngest" character added by a solid two years for starters. He was the tail end of a pack that was big third party icons. All these third party icons were also from companies not yet represented in Smash (Atlus, Armor Project, RARE/Microsoft, and SNK). Blythe's Mii costumes were another "dump" and thematically had nothing to do with Fire Emblem, super suspicious for a character that Nintendo literally owns. Based on all these factors, I strongly believe that Blythe was a swap out and I'll explain.

Returning to Power of Six Theory

Again, created by Judge Heihachi, Power of Six basically says that the original plan of the Fighter's Pass was to give every pack 6 Mii costumes and bring back all 15 Smash 4 third party DLC costumes. Our basic map of this is the following:

1. Joker (4 Persona costumes, Knuckles and Tails)

2. Hero (4 Dragon Quest costumes, Geno and Chocobo)

3. Banjo (Goemon, all 4 Megaman costumes, Sans or Rocket Grunt)

4. Terry (3 SNK costumes, Akira, Jacky, and Heihachi)

5. Some Dude™ (Two costumes from this company/franchise, Gil, Lloyd, Monster Hunter, and Rathalos)

All thematically line up, with Banjo being a "dump" of sorts. Going back to my most basic theory for 5 back in September, this suggests that 5 would be a swordsman from a yet unrepresented company in Smash Ultimate. My line of thinking took me through mostly Namco and Bethesda but what if I overthought the situation? Back in September, what swordsman was the most on people's minds including insiders? Ryu Hayabusa.

Where the **** is Ryu?!?

I have a theory on what happened. Brew/Shifty's contact was correct but in a Gematsu leak way. They both said this contact knew about Piranha Plant and Joker and I believe them. This contact probably did have access to the original plan for the Fighter's Pass but... That planned changed for some reason. If we swap out Byleth with Ryu, he fits exceptionally well. Thematically, he goes with everyone else and it makes a ton of sense. As established, he even fits my basic hypothesis of 5 being a swordsman from an unrepped company. That's real ****in' neato but where is Ryu now? I have my own theories.

Conflict Among Developers? Uh Oh, Stinky!

As you all have heard from me, Ryu was first heard in insider circles around December 2018. Based on ForsakenM's timeline theory, we've established that "Season 2" was probably decided around this time and planning began. We have strong evidence of this and one developer was not so subtle about their future Smash plans: Kamiya. Mid December 2018, Kamiya puts out a public poll asking which of his characters people would like to see in Smash. Three are Capcom characters and this is where problems began. Dante won by a significant margin and that made the matter worse. Why?

Tecmo/Team Ninja and Capcom supposedly absolutely hate each other, even going as far as refusing to work on projects if the other is involved. Supposedly they've even fought each other in court too. Notice how Hyrule Warriors didn't have any of the major characters from the Capcom Zelda games? Pretty sure this was deliberate. Throw on top of this that Kamiya is hardcore resented by a good percent of professional Japanese game developers and you have a recipe for disaster. The following is my own speculation and I don't know if it can be confirmed or not.

Tecmo finds out about plans for Dante DLC in Smash and is absolutely pissed. However you say "man, **** those guys" in Japanese, that's probably what happened. Tecmo makes an ultimatum: Sakurai drops Dante or they walk from Ultimate. Sakurai doesn't budge because Kamiya is a good friend of his. Tecmo yeets itself out of DLC. This all happens before Plant is even released. "Well... ****... We're now short a character... ****, ****, piss, etc" -Sakurai, probably. There's now a big gaping hole in DLC. What's the easiest character to plug up this hole with on short notice? A Nintendo character. Sakurai said it himself, he played a Three Lawn Chairs demo and thought "neat" and made his decision based on this. No third parties were involved so it was super easy to keep this underwraps.

In my own head, this makes sense and why my contact knew about a Three Hams Will Kill Him stage and spirits, along with 4 still MIA Mii costumes, one being male and female Byleth! I think this means 6 was originally planned as a bonus and they were going to get the Three Craft Breweries content! What happened is that something went screwy and Byleth was merely prrrrrrromoted because Three Howses was already planned to get a buttload of content anyways!

The Mysterious Nature of 6

Like I've said many times before, 4 character names were commonly heard in the later half of 2018 in insider circles, Lloyd, Ryu, Geno, and anemic Burt Reynolds. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think these were the original plan for 5-8. 6 was always going to be a thing, even before Season 2 was decided. Again, like Mewtwo, a super popular character tacked onto the end as a send off but then they changed their minds for additional DLC later on. 6 was originally planned to get the Trois Maisons content because, in theory, it's a Nintendo character so it fits. So, what does this mean? It means things got jumbled and I'll map it out.

-Ryu's originally 5. For whatever reason, Tecmo drops out of Ultimate DLC.

-Ryu is replaced the easiest way that Nintendo can, they promote the Tree Houses content they were originally going to release with 6. Byleth gets promoted from Mii costume to playable. Subconsciously, Isaac and Rex fans suddenly feel existential dread and don't know why.

-Byleth's Mii costumes are all from companies already contributing to the game: Ubisoft, Capcom, and Microsoft. Byleth gets the two remaining Megaman costumes that, in theory, were originally meant for Banjo. Four Megaman costumes split between 2 "dumps" makes sense in the light of the Power of Two theory, the changed plan that 2 Smash 4 third party costumes were coming per pack until they all 15 come back.

-6 is still happening but my theory is that it will be a mix of its original planned content and Ryu's. 6's Smash 4 DLC costumes, for example, are heavily implied to be Monster Hunter and Rathalos. 6 may get the other three TH Mii costumes and one of the two rumored indie costumes to originally be planned for 6. We now have a 6 pack, supporting Power of Six and Power of Two.

-What will 6's stage, music, and spirit board be? No clue but if they're all directly related to the character, I will be genuinely surprised.

-This all lines up with the information my contacts have given me about 6 and why one of them flat out says Ryu is totally out of the picture now.

What if I'm Wrong about 6?

I've definitely considered this. What if Ryu was merely pushed back? Tecmo came back and they hugged things out. I guess that could happen. Capcom and Tecmo realize that the real magic is the friends they've made along the way and make up. Ryu gets added back in as 6. This actually lines up with what three of my confidants (not contacts, confidants are people who share info with each other and not the source of said info) have shared me. Three have heard from their own sources that 6 is going to be Dante or "a very Dante like character." This last bit is especially weird to me. It fits the profile of a speedy and flashy character. Perhaps this is why one of my contacts thinks 6 is Geno but I seriously doubt it. Only character in the insider speculation sphere that fits this description is Ryu. If I'm wrong about El Hermano, this presents the following ideas: 6 is Ryu, Dante, Geno, or it's yet another situation like Blythe and everyone got jebaited again.

So, laying this all on the table, our probable spread for 6 is pretty good. 4 decently popular characters or a total rando is a pretty good way to start off Season 2 in my opinion.

I’m really curious about the reason for the bad blood between Capcom and Koei Tecmo. Is it just cause they both have Ryus?

Also, Hayabusa DEFINITELY fits the “Dante-like” description. Fast, flashy, lots of weapons. The newer Ninja Gaiden games are basically Ninja DMC with less guns and more gore

 

[Fatmanonice]

Look maybe Byleth sticks out but perhaps that only because we forgot Nintendo likes to make sure they have a shill pick or two. Let's not forget the base of Ultimate people like to throw around is for fans also gave us Inceniroar and Isabelle. I think Byleth was intentional. He was the last person. And to think some conspiracy involving Capcom and Tecmo lead to Sakurai changing a mii costume to playable at the last minute seems way too silly. Like it or not this was likely the plan for a long time. Was it a bad plan? Yes, but still the plan.

Like I said, it doesn't mesh. Ryu has been heard by way too many people to be a coincidence, same with Chrom in Smash 4. Either Ryu is still in the game or was cut; there's no in-between. Too many people with solid track records have heard Ryu since December 2018 in context with Smash. Ryu isn't exactly an all star pick among the general Smash fanbase to begin with so him even being part of the conversation is very weird.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Fatmanonice do you think purple pie man is still likely? And do you think there is a reason for the uneven number with Season Pass 2 compared to 1?