Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Sour Supreme]

There's too much history with Geno for a Mii Costume to please us at this point. It's been a long time coming. People were excited for Sans because it was assumed Undertale content could fly under the radar entirely. Not the case with Geno.

I personally hate the Mii Fighters. Still haven't put them on my CSS. Only bought Sans for Megalovania.

 

[Ovaltine]

There's too much history with Geno for a Mii Costume to please us at this point. It's been a long time coming. People were excited for Sans because it was assumed Undertale content could fly under the radar entirely. Not the case with Geno.

I personally hate the Mii Fighters. Still haven't put them on my CSS. Only bought Sans fot Megalovania.

Oh trust me, I'd be disappointed if he was a costume and not a fighter, too, but I'd take it eons over his terrible spirit... or a port of the Sm4sh costume. At least then, it'll feel like they tried... and at least it would look like Geno.

I would prefer him as a fighter, though. I absolutely would. I want to see my boy revived. Whether or not it revives him beyond Smash would remain to be seen (maybe so, if Square and Nintendo do more crossovers), but even if it's JUST Smash, it'll be a beautiful send-off for him, much like it's been for B-K. (I really don't think this is the last we'll see of B-K, though... )

 

[Sour Supreme]

Oh trust me, I'd be disappointed if he was a costume and not a fighter, too, but I'd take it eons over his terrible spirit... or a port of the Sm4sh costume. At least then, it'll feel like they tried... and at least it would look like Geno.

I would prefer him as a fighter, though. I absolutely would. I want to see my boy revived. Whether or not it revives him beyond Smash would remain to be seen (maybe so, if Square and Nintendo do more crossovers), but even if it's JUST Smash, it'll be a beautiful send-off for him, much like it's been for B-K. (I really don't think this is the last we'll see of B-K, though... )

I really still feel like Geno would have been released with Hero if he was going to be a Mii Costume again. Hopefully that bodes well for the future and doesn't mean he isn't getting anything. (Something I seriously doubt would happen since they made a point of getting him into Smash 4.)

Banjo-Kazooie definetely changed the perspective of Geno's chances. Afterall, they're the first DLC characters who aren't being utilizied in an active IP, which means the ladder they climbed was one propped up solely by fan demand. Geno's acension would be in a similar vein.

I really hope SMRPG becomes available for Switch Online when Geno is announced.

 

[CannonStreak]

I really still feel like Geno would have been released with Hero if he was going to be a Mii Costume again. Hopefully that bodes well for the future and doesn't mean he isn't getting anything. (Something I seriously doubt would happen since they made a point of getting him into Smash 4.)

Banjo-Kazooie definetely changed the perspective of Geno's chances. Afterall, they're the first DLC characters who aren't being utilizied in an active IP, which means the ladder they climbed was one propped up solely by fan demand. Geno's acension would be in a similar vein.

I really hope SMRPG becomes available for Switch Online when Geno is announced.

WHEN Geno is announced? Forgive me, but what makes you think it is a matter of "when" and not "if"?

 

[Deleted member]

View attachment 240302
I just wanna mention how incredibly easy it would be to upgrade the Smash 4 costume to make a very convincing Geno skin. However, I completely understand why it would be disappointing to the fans. Though this can be a very real possibility, considering how San's popularity gave him this fate.

Speaking of which, I have to say that I'm a bit surprised that the Sans fans seem to be 100% on board with the Sans costume. I don't think I saw anyone disappointed over him not being original. Some actually seem to completely convince themselves that the actual Sans is in the roster.

Sans' "popularity" didn't resign him to Mii costume, the fact that he has no realizable moveset did. I've mentioned before in this thread that, unless I hideously misunderstood some key point of Undertale's lore, the attacks that Sans uses aren't real, physical things, they're metaphysical abstractions that attack your soul. All he ever actually did was move out of the way.

Undertale is a strange game where every fight is like a stage more than it is a battle, and Sans takes that to the extreme. I've seen his boss battle remade as a stage in a Mega Man hack and in Super Mario Maker, and it makes sense, but how one could ever produce a meaningful moveset out of that is beyond me. Sakurai would confirm that he is an absolute genius to do so.

Geno, on the other hand, has enough special moves from his home game to fill out his B moves + Final Smash. He has enough different weapons to fill out an entire character's worth of normals. Nothing has to be made up or assumed about how his moves function, only how they would translate to Smash. A mii costume not only robs him as a character, not only robs us as fans, but robs Smash itself of quality potential. If it comes back, either as the ugly old one or as some kind of Sans-ified costume, I'm not buying it. I bought the old one to show my support, not to get burned a second time.

 

[SSGuy]

WHEN Geno is announced? Forgive me, but what makes you think it is a matter of "when" and not "if"?

Regardless of how people feel of his overall chances, I think we are getting something for Geno whether it is Mii Costume or the real deal. So I think using the term when is fair game.

I really hope we are getting the former. It's been too damn long man.

 

[HudU]

I hope he's in.

 

[CannonStreak]

Regardless of how people feel of his overall chances, I think we are getting something for Geno whether it is Mii Costume or the real deal. So I think using the term when is fair game.

I really hope we are getting the former. It's been too damn long man.

Okay then. Just try not to get your hopes up, just in case, guys. (not just you, SSGuy).

 

[riggsbass]

https://soundcloud.com/jazzweatherrr/return-of-the-starsend-savior-demo

Here's a remix I'm working on of "Geno Awakens"! I think you'll all appreciate the title.

 

[Sour Supreme]

WHEN Geno is announced? Forgive me, but what makes you think it is a matter of "when" and not "if"?

"If" would have been the more appropriate word choice. I'm done with that though. At this point Geno is a when for me. I'll continue to discuss him as such even if I'm setting myself up for dissapointment.

 

[Deleted member]

Starting to have Endgame vibes for some reason...

 

[Sour Supreme]

Starting to have Endgame vibes for some reason...

Geno sacrifices himself to assure every Smash character can remain on the roster?

 

[Deleted member]

Geno sacrifices himself to assure every Smash character can remain on the roster?

I think that would be Kirby.

 

[Shado-will]

It's still insane that Lucas of all people is the only character whose game you cannot play in America.

Roy says hi

 

[Deleted member]

If Smash fans keep using the “Don’t deserve to be in Smash” arguments, Lucas has a problem the fact that Mother 3 never came out outside of Japan even back in the Brawl day. At least there’s been demand for Mother 3 for years.

 

[DaxMasterix]

Yoo this is cute
https://www.fangamer.com/products/star-legend

Magnets sold out

 

[Deleted member]

If Smash fans keep using the “Don’t deserve to be in Smash” arguments, Lucas has a problem the fact that Mother 3 never came out outside of Japan even back in the Brawl day. At least there’s been demand for Mother 3 for years.

"Geno's only been in one game!"
Yeah, like Ness and Lucas and every Fire Emblem character, and Ice Climbers.

"He's not even the main character!"
You mean like Luigi? Falco? Peach?...

"20 year old game!"
Like Ness? Almost Lucas? Marth? Ice Climbers?

Every argument against Geno at this point is old hat, grasping at straws tier stuff. The same could be said for how people justify their distaste for any character (myself included!), but the arguments against Geno are especially weak.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

If Smash fans keep using the “Don’t deserve to be in Smash” arguments, Lucas has a problem the fact that Mother 3 never came out outside of Japan even back in the Brawl day. At least there’s been demand for Mother 3 for years.

I mean, Lucas isn't a great example. Sakurai literally said he wouldn't have included him if he knew that Mother 3 wasn't getting a western release and he mostly was kind of insanely lucky to be grandfathered in since he existed in a Smash game previously (and that shoots the popularity way up for demands of a returning character haha).

I'd argue Lucas in Smash was more essential to making the Mother 3 "localization" demand exist in the first place for his odd circumstances of getting into Brawl in the first place.

 

[Deleted member]

"Geno's only been in one game!"
Yeah, like Ness and Lucas and every Fire Emblem character, and Ice Climbers.

"He's not even the main character!"
You mean like Luigi? Falco? Peach?...

"20 year old game!"
Like Ness? Almost Lucas? Marth? Ice Climbers?

Every argument against Geno at this point is old hat, grasping at straws tier stuff. The same could be said for how people justify their distaste for any character (myself included!), but the arguments against Geno are especially weak.

Don’t forget the excuse that the Ice Climbers are the “rEtRO RePs”

 

[Zinith]

Yoo this is cute
https://www.fangamer.com/products/star-legend

Magnets sold out

That Yoshi one yeet

 

[Sour Supreme]

Roy says hi

He has been in other Fire Emblem games that have been localized, though. Poor Lucas hasn't had that luxury.

It is funny though, I remember Mother 3 and FE: The Binding Blade were the only games I ran through my emulator back in the day.

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, Lucas isn't a great example. Sakurai literally said he wouldn't have included him if he knew that Mother 3 wasn't getting a western release and he mostly was kind of insanely lucky to be grandfathered in since he existed in a Smash game previously (and that shoots the popularity way up for demands of a returning character haha).

I'd argue Lucas in Smash was more essential to making the Mother 3 "localization" demand exist in the first place for his odd circumstances of getting into Brawl in the first place.

That’s the point. Westerners aren’t that familiar who Lucas was back in Brawl. At the end, all the support was useless in the first place the fact Nintendo would never localize the game because all the things that Mother 3 have that would stir Nintendo controversy.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I think this looks better for the double shot

I added more color because I was already breaking my rules

 

[ForsakenM]

Today's the deadline, so it has to be done ASAP today if you still want your letter to make it in. The email is smashultimatedlc@gmail.com. Everyone's assembled a lot of the letters and prepared plenty of stuff by now, though, so while I think we can still get your letter in, I unfortunately can't promise anything.

I got held up at work and was too busy getting prepared for work tomorrow. Guess my letter just won't make it.

 

[N3ON]

"Geno's only been in one game!"
Yeah, like Ness and Lucas and every Fire Emblem character, and Ice Climbers.

"He's not even the main character!"
You mean like Luigi? Falco? Peach?...

"20 year old game!"
Like Ness? Almost Lucas? Marth? Ice Climbers?

Every argument against Geno at this point is old hat, grasping at straws tier stuff. The same could be said for how people justify their distaste for any character (myself included!), but the arguments against Geno are especially weak.

I'm not saying the odds are insurmountable, but has it occurred to you that hindrances are cumulative and its not a matter of some other character being able to just fit one or two of those criteria?

It's not any one reason that paints the picture, it's all of them together. Plus factors like being third-party. If those obstacles were a venn diagram, none of those characters would reside in the middle with Geno.

Also your examples for that last point don't fit, none of those characters were from twenty year old games when they were included. Unless you want to start conflating standards for veterans with those of newcomers.

Don’t forget the excuse that the Ice Climbers are the “rEtRO RePs”

That's literally why they were chosen according to Sakurai... but ok...

 

[Deleted member]

That's literally why they were chosen according to Sakurai... but ok...

But within the same game we got Mr. Game and Watch and I thought he was the Retro rep since he's the older character and Ice Climbers were either A) an inclusion like Pit in Brawl or B) the WTF character or was there just two Retro reps? Cause that's never happened since IIRC.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

But within the same game we got Mr. Game and Watch and I thought he was the Retro rep since he's the older character and Ice Climbers were either A) an inclusion like Pit in Brawl or B) the WTF character or was there just two Retro reps? Cause that's never happened since IIRC.

We had ROB and Pit in Brawl, and we also had Wii Fit Trainer and Duck Hunt in Smash 4... so yeah, that has happened twice since in a very similar manner.

 

[Sour Supreme]

We had ROB and Pit in Brawl, and we also had Wii Fit Trainer and Duck Hunt in Smash 4... so yeah, that has happened twice since in a very similar manner.

I don't know if I would call Wii Fit retro... Mega Man might be a better call, even. But your point still stands. Pit kind of snuck in because the Kid Icarus revival was in the works.

 

[N3ON]

But within the same game we got Mr. Game and Watch and I thought he was the Retro rep since he's the older character and Ice Climbers were either A) an inclusion like Pit in Brawl or B) the WTF character or was there just two Retro reps? Cause that's never happened since IIRC.

Sakurai included Ice Climbers because he wanted a character to represent the "classic" era of Nintendo. After he passed on Balloon Fighter and Excitebiker (because he couldn't figure out how to implement them to his liking) and Bubbles (for presumably the same reason, though I'm not sure on that one), he opted for Ice Climbers. They were absolutely the designated "NES" rep, you can check if you like.

G&W's reasoning I can't recall off the top of my head, but given Sakurai has stated factors like "historical importance" and "surprise" for including characters of that obscure/wtf ilk, I imagine it was either one or both of those reasons which caused that inclusion.

I don't know if I would call Wii Fit retro... Mega Man might be a better call, even. But your point still stands. Pit kind of snuck in because the Kid Icarus revival was in the works.

I really don't think any of the unrealized pre-Uprising attempts to revive the series informed Sakurai's decision to include Pit.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I don't know if I would call Wii Fit retro... Mega Man might be a better call, even. But your point still stands. Pit kind of snuck in because the Kid Icarus revival was in the works.

Oh I thought we were just referring to a WTF and a Retro in the same game. Like I thought it was fairly obvious that Mr. Game and Watch was supposed to be the WTF character, he's literally 2D in a 3D fighting game.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Oh I thought we were just referring to a WTF and a Retro in the same game. Like I thought it was fairly obvious that Mr. Game and Watch was supposed to be the WTF character, he's literally 2D in a 3D fighting game.

Ahh I see. My apologies for the discrepancy. I guess Ultimate got a Retro and WTF in the forms of Simon and the Plant.

Sakurai included Ice Climbers because he wanted a character to represent the "classic" era of Nintendo. After he passed on Balloon Fighter and Excitebiker (because he couldn't figure out how to implement them to his liking) and Bubbles (for presumably the same reason, though I'm not sure on that one), he opted for Ice Climbers. They were absolutely the designated "NES" rep, you can check if you like.

G&W's reasoning I can't recall off the top of my head, but given Sakurai has stated factors like "historical importance" and "surprise" for including characters of that obscure/wtf ilk, I imagine it was either one or both of those reasons which caused that inclusion.


I really don't think any of the unrealized pre-Uprising attempts to revive the series informed Sakurai's decision to include Pit.

Well, Uprising was developed by Sora Ltd. and I'm fairly certain Sakurai was involved in its conception. I don't know when development began but the game came out in 2012 early in the 3DS life cycle. I don't think it's unreasonable to think Pit came about because of attempts to revive the series. After all Brawl showed off the redesign of Pit that translated almost identically to the main series games.

 

[N3ON]

The retro/wtf pattern is so loose it might as well not really be a thing.

The only game it for sure occurred is Melee, when Sakurai included ICs for retro reasons and G&W for the typical wtf reasons (which typically was seen as a mix of retro/hardware/surprise). People thought the pattern continued with Brawl, given Pit and ROB, but while ROB fits the G&W archetype, Sakurai never explicitly stated Pit's inclusion was to represent the NES era again. He, unlike ICs, was a fairly popular request, so that could've played into the inclusion as well.

Then people tried to continue the pattern with 4, though it had already started to wither, given DHD might again fit the wtf archetype, but Little Mac, as he had already been revived, didn't fit the retro archetype. People also throw WFT in there, even though she's just a surprise character, which isn't really the same thing as G&W/ROB/DHD. And it definitely isn't the same as ICs or Pit.

And then there's no pretence of the pattern in Ultimate. There's a surprise character, but it's Piranha Plant, which only shares the surprise factor, and not the hardware, historical or retro connotations.

The only real pattern at this point is that Sakurai will sneak at least one surprise character on to the roster. Though this time it wasn't even in base. And Geno doesn't fit that archetype anyway, so it's all a bit tangential.

Well, Uprising was developed by Sora Ltd. and I'm fairly certain Sakurai was involved in its conception. I don't know when development began but the game came out in 2012 early in the 3DS life cycle. I don't think it's unreasonable to think Pit came about because of attempts to revive the series. After all Brawl showed off the redesign of Pit that translated almost identically to the main series games.

Of course Sakurai was involved, he directed the game. But the Brawl roster was created in 2005, and Uprising began, iirc, in 2009. However, initially Sakurai envisioned the gameplay, and toyed around with it being a Star Fox title before deciding that Kid Icarus fit better.

So given that at the beginning of Uprising, Sakurai didn't even know it would be a Kid Icarus game, I really doubt that four years prior such ideas were shaping the roster of a different game. According to him, the impetus behind Pit's redesign in Brawl was to modernize the character as if he had been receiving titles the entire time, a la Link and Samus.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Ahh I see. My apologies for the discrepancy. I guess Ultimate got a Retro and WTF in the forms of Simon and the Plant.

Well, Uprising was developed by Sora Ltd. and I'm fairly certain Sakurai was involved in its conception. I don't know when development began but the game came out in 2012 early in the 3DS life cycle. I don't think it's unreasonable to think Pit came about because of attempts to revive the series. After all Brawl showed off the redesign of Pit that translated almost identically to the main series games.

This is all I can find on why Pit was included, and it's just as the retro rep:
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2017/01/17/on-character-selection-brawl/

 

[Sour Supreme]

The retro/wtf pattern is so loose it might as well not really be a thing.

The only game it for sure occurred is Melee, when Sakurai included ICs for retro reasons and G&W for the typical wtf reasons (which typically was seen as a mix of retro/hardware/surprise). People thought the pattern continued with Brawl, given Pit and ROB, but while ROB fits the G&W archetype, Sakurai never explicitly stated Pit's inclusion was to represent the NES era again. He, unlike ICs, was a fairly popular request, so that could've played into the inclusion as well.

Then people tried to continue the pattern with 4, though it had already started to wither, given DHD might again fit the wtf archetype, but Little Mac, as he had already been revived, didn't fit the retro archetype. People also throw WFT in there, even though she's just a surprise character, which isn't really the same thing as G&W/ROB/DHD. And it definitely isn't the same as ICs or Pit.

And then there's no pretence of the pattern in Ultimate. There's a surprise character, but it's Piranha Plant, which only shares the surprise factor, and not the hardware, historical or retro connotations.

The only real pattern at this point is that Sakurai will sneak at least one surprise character on to the roster. Though this time it wasn't even in base. And Geno doesn't fit that archetype anyway, so it's all a bit tangential.


Of course Sakurai was involved, he directed the game. But the Brawl roster was created in 2005, and Uprising began, iirc, in 2009. However, initially Sakurai envisioned the gameplay, and toyed around with it being a Star Fox title before deciding that Kid Icarus fit better.

So given that at the beginning of Uprising, Sakurai didn't even know it would be a Kid Icarus game, I really doubt that four years prior such ideas were shaping the roster of a different game. According to him, the impetus behind Pit's redesign in Brawl was to modernize the character as if he had been receiving titles the entire time, a la Link and Samus.

This is all I can find on why Pit was included, and it's just as the retro rep:
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2017/01/17/on-character-selection-brawl/

Yeah, you right. I did some digging of my own out of curiosity and it seems the redesign was intended for Brawl solely.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Oh, lol. I'm dumb. I forgot that the inside of his cape was yellow. I corrected the coloring issue. I even had the yellow in some parts of it

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not saying the odds are insurmountable, but has it occurred to you that hindrances are cumulative and its not a matter of some other character being able to just fit one or two of those criteria?

It's not any one reason that paints the picture, it's all of them together. Plus factors like being third-party. If those obstacles were a venn diagram, none of those characters would reside in the middle with Geno.

Also your examples for that last point don't fit, none of those characters were from twenty year old games when they were included. Unless you want to start conflating standards for veterans with those of newcomers.


That's literally why they were chosen according to Sakurai... but ok...

Except that is literally the point... the most common excuse in the book. Sakurai could of added Little Mac or someone else. That doesn’t change the fact that there is nothing significant about the ice climbers and their not relevant. Not even the top 50 best selling NES games. Since Kid Icarus got modernized, there are no plans for the future and it’s been technically almost 10 years since there’s no new game so the kid Icarus cast themselves are irrelevant. Geno can be a retro character. He’s from a beloved cult classic.

If I were using the “don’t belong in Smash” standpoint for example, just because you’re from the N.E.S era, doesn’t mean you automatically deserve to be in Smash.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

So we did end up having a Neon vs N3on fight after all. lol

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not saying the odds are insurmountable, but has it occurred to you that hindrances are cumulative and its not a matter of some other character being able to just fit one or two of those criteria?

It's not any one reason that paints the picture, it's all of them together. Plus factors like being third-party. If those obstacles were a venn diagram, none of those characters would reside in the middle with Geno.

Also your examples for that last point don't fit, none of those characters were from twenty year old games when they were included. Unless you want to start conflating standards for veterans with those of newcomers.

These are fair points, but I didn't construct a complete list. There's one character who fits the venn diagram with Geno by those three common detractions: Duck Hunt.

[ X ] 20 Years old by the time of his inclusion
[ X ] Appeared in exactly one game
[ X ] not even the main character (that would be you, guy with the gun)

If we want to talk about cumulative hindrances, I could add onto all of the things that potentially stopped Duck Hunt from getting into the game by common arguments against other characters. He doesn't have a canon name, he has no personality, he's literally an animal, he has no moveset... I'm sure if I really thought about it, I could come up with others.

I'm sure there are people who would try to say the big scary "third party" is a bigger hindrance than all of those, but Banjo is in this game.

 

[xpnc]

And it goes without saying that a poll promoted by a user named "PapaGenos" who constantly promotes Geno as a character choice might be more prone to an over-representation of the character compared to the Smash population.

PapaGeno's discord users hate Geno. To the point where if you say he's got a chance in their character discussion channel a horde of angry people frothing at the mouth will tell you spirits deconfirm and you need to give up.

 

[Deleted member]

PapaGeno's discord users hate Geno. To the point where if you say he's got a chance in their character discussion channel a horde of angry people frothing at the mouth will tell you spirits deconfirm and you need to give up.

On today's episode of "Things that don't Make Sense"...