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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,197
It really sucks when most Steve fans either don't care about B-K either way or like them as well, with the ones bashing them being immature and probably young. I'm sure the Waluigi fanbase is mostly nice, too.

It's not like there weren't any B-K fans being rude to even polite Steve fans, or that other characters' fanbases don't deal with the same problems. I understand people getting mad at trolls (I can't help but reply sometimes, too), but that's all they are: trolls, and they're not good representation of these fanbases.
None of it is remotely close to fair, but it's the Smash fan base at the worst of times for you. It's such a big franchise that just attracts everyone to say their piece, and a great deal of people just like to troll or be absolute assholes all the time. And people like it when the world is simpler or easier, so instead of taking the nuanced approach and seeing the trolls for who they are versus legitimate fans, people lump them all together. It's especially convenient for the fans of a character when the other character is seemingly "competing" for a spot.

I didn't honestly find the Square Enix stuff that bad, sure, some people hated Dragon Quest for being a legitimate and notable series, but beyond the usual suspects trying to be right, it didn't feel too bad. It helped when there was a whole list of good candidates for Square's second rep.

But Banjo vs Steve was pretty damn brutal for no good reason and was super frustrating to see on a consistent basis. I've always appreciated you being a legitimate fan of both characters and appreciate how much you've put up with for just being on the wrong side of Steve and Minecraft (Which I honestly still think deserves a place in Smash with a playable rep).
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
My stance on capitalism is that companies care about one thing: money. You're the customer, your money is your power. But you can also use your voice, because PR costs money.

So basically if you don't like something you can not pay but you can also and should also speak up. How you go on about it depends on your principles, but I don't think I could really blame anyone for being pragmatic.
The issue with Smash is that there has already been so much fan service and commitment to fans that basically every character fan base already straddles the line of perceived entitlement at this point. Most of the big name obvious Nintendo all-stars are already in, so there doesn't feel like there are natural and notable absentees at this point. Most of speculation is mostly just made up of people wanting specific characters, and while that's perfectly fine and great for speculation in a lot of ways, it also means there are no clear frontrunners for the position and its a bit harder to make the case of why these characters should be in Smash. You have to do more work to convince people than you had to for say, Ridley or King K. Rool. And because of that difficulty in establishing your case and also with how we already straddle the "line of entitlement," it just takes the slightest push for any fan base to become vilified. Especially with someone like Waluigi who arguably is the most meme'd non playable character surrounding Ultimate. He was adopted by a lot of people just for the meme, much like Steve was adopted by a great deal of people determined to rain on the Banjo Kazooie parade. It makes them both easy targets for overall negative perception from the fan base.



Requested characters and obvious picks can be one and the same, you don't get to downplay the legitimate demand for Inkling just because you feel they're invalidated by being a natural choice. There's also zero sources to corroborate that Geno was willfully passed over in all of those instances and not stopped by other potential issues/he was even in consideration for something like Smash 4 DLC when Final Fantasy was clearly going to be the first pick. You're also making a hell of a lot of assumptions regarding the future of Smash DLC like the Mii costume coming back and Isaac being absolutely dead (I think he's got a shot if we get more DLC than the Fighter's Pass too). And again, there's a bunch of reasons to include characters beyond fan requests, but I know you won't relent on that, so I'll drop it (What a horrible crime for a game director to want to express some creativity and not just be a slave to the desires of the fan base even though his apparent bad decision making resulted in a game selling 14 million copies). And remember, not everything is made to please you or even just the main fanbase that cares enough to participate in something like the Smash Ballot.

Look, I'm not telling you to quit supporting Geno. I'm telling you to be responsible about the way you do it and not to be a negative ******* about the way you voice disappointment that will be counterproductive to your actual goals of supporting Geno. You can see where a great deal of the thread stands on this, and most of us are not keen to have people making a bad name for us. So, please consider that in whatever action you decide to take. This is my final response to you on this stuff. I'm not going to argue further.
Nah, that's bull**** though. There's absolutely notable and glaring absences in Smash. Waluigi being one of them.
 

ZelDan

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
3,303
Location
New Hampshire
The issue with Smash is that there has already been so much fan service and commitment to fans that basically every character fan base already straddles the line of perceived entitlement at this point. Most of the big name obvious Nintendo all-stars are already in, so there doesn't feel like there are natural and notable absentees at this point. Most of speculation is mostly just made up of people wanting specific characters, and while that's perfectly fine and great for speculation in a lot of ways, it also means there are no clear frontrunners for the position and its a bit harder to make the case of why these characters should be in Smash. You have to do more work to convince people than you had to for say, Ridley or King K. Rool. And because of that difficulty in establishing your case and also with how we already straddle the "line of entitlement," it just takes the slightest push for any fan base to become vilified. Especially with someone like Waluigi who arguably is the most meme'd non playable character surrounding Ultimate. He was adopted by a lot of people just for the meme, much like Steve was adopted by a great deal of people determined to rain on the Banjo Kazooie parade. It makes them both easy targets for overall negative perception from the fan base.



Requested characters and obvious picks can be one and the same, you don't get to downplay the legitimate demand for Inkling just because you feel they're invalidated by being a natural choice. There's also zero sources to corroborate that Geno was willfully passed over in all of those instances and not stopped by other potential issues/he was even in consideration for something like Smash 4 DLC when Final Fantasy was clearly going to be the first pick. You're also making a hell of a lot of assumptions regarding the future of Smash DLC like the Mii costume coming back and Isaac being absolutely dead (I think he's got a shot if we get more DLC than the Fighter's Pass too). And again, there's a bunch of reasons to include characters beyond fan requests, but I know you won't relent on that, so I'll drop it (What a horrible crime for a game director to want to express some creativity and not just be a slave to the desires of the fan base even though his apparent bad decision making resulted in a game selling 14 million copies). And remember, not everything is made to please you or even just the main fanbase that cares enough to participate in something like the Smash Ballot.

Look, I'm not telling you to quit supporting Geno. I'm telling you to be responsible about the way you do it and not to be a negative ******* about the way you voice disappointment that will be counterproductive to your actual goals of supporting Geno. You can see where a great deal of the thread stands on this, and most of us are not keen to have people making a bad name for us. So, please consider that in whatever action you decide to take. This is my final response to you on this stuff. I'm not going to argue further.
Gotta be honest, alot of this stuff you just said doesn't sit well with me at all. Maybe you're just explaining how other people see things and not necessarily how you see things, but what you're saying comes across to me is that people who don't support "big name NIntendo all-stars" are more likely to be "entitled," or that if someone is still upset about certain character omissions in this game, that they are likely " entitled" because hey, Sakurai pleased alot of people, so who cares about the people who aren't pleased! They should just have to deal with it!

Would it be more okay for a supporter of a "big name Nintendo All-star" to act aggressively than a supporter of a "non big name Nintendo all-star?"

So somebody can't feel bothered or upset about Waluigi, Isaac, geno, Ashley etc. not being playable because Ridley and K Rool made it in? What if somebody doesn't personally care about Ridley or K Rool?

Again, maybe this isn't you explaining your mindset and you're explaining how others' mindsets, or maybe I'm misinterpreting things here, but I don't like the idea of fanbases being held to some higher expectation or being judged more harshly just because of the status of the character they want, or that because Sakurai put so much effort into Smash Ultimate that people have to act like Sakurai and Smash Ultimate are perfect and that they cannot be criticized.

Maybe you are just saying that these certain fanbases should not be overly negative in their support or getting their voice heard, which I would agree with, but I would say this should be true of ANY fanbase, regardless of if their character is a "big name Nintendo all-star" or not.
 

Geno Boost

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Star Hill. Why do you ask?
Hey peeps, I had a booth at an artist alley this past weekend at a video game convention here in Salt Lake City. I had a small print of Geno on display (the one of my current avatar) just to see if people knew who he was, and there was a lot of positive feedback. A lot of people recognized him and told me how they wished for a SMRPG remake or for Geno to be in Smash. It was reassuring. There are a lot of Geno supporters out there that aren't a part of this thread. I just thought it was cool and wanted to share that with you guys.
Glad to hear this i am also a part of community that has alot of people recognising Geno and SMRPG which is VRChat and it was really interesting to see people from different countries knowing about it even the japanese ones that have language barrier some have talked about my stuff on twitter even though i dont have a twitter account here is an example you could go ahead and translate these japanese tweets about me https://mobile.twitter.com/MERU_0001_/status/1137110493758349312
even when it comes to the people who dont recognise it some have gone check SMRPG out and they got interested on trying it because of the contents i have done over the years. some of the interesting responses i got about Geno from the people who dont know who he is says that they have seen this character somewhere on the internet before but they dont know any info about him which means Geno design is actually recognisable.

you know i think its kinda funny that i am a person from the middle east but its extremely rare to see people who even play nintendo consoles there, yet i somehow got into the SMRPG community and started making alot of contents i am pretty sure finding loopy-lupe 7 star comics has done a big impact on me.
 
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Fatmanonice

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Not exactly a stunning revelation but maybe looking at things at face value isn't a bad idea. Persona 5 and Dragon Quest were highly praised by Sakurai and Microsoft's Big Guy™ vouched for Banjo so maybe this DLC cycle isn't as unpredictable as we originally thought. Hindsight is 20/20, blah blah blah, but if you look at the history of Smash its kind of been this way, especially for third parties. Either Sakurai has talked up a series or a Biggie Cheese for some third party has talked about coming to Smash in some capacity. That said, I'm pretty confident that DLC #4 is going to be Doom Slayer because it honestly checks all the boxes.

-Sakurai has praised it? Yarp.
-Respective third party has talked about it in non-vague terms? Yarp.
-Major anniversary is this year? Uh-yup. (25th)

On this note, this is something that Geno has going for him because Sakurai has talked positively about him in the past. Hell, even most of characters that Sakurai has talked about negatively in the past (Ridley, Chrom, Daisy, etc) have wound up playable or assist trophies so it's not a super far reach either way.
 

wynn728

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
1,380
Requested characters and obvious picks can be one and the same, you don't get to downplay the legitimate demand for Inkling just because you feel they're invalidated by being a natural choice. There's also zero sources to corroborate that Geno was willfully passed over in all of those instances and not stopped by other potential issues/he was even in consideration for something like Smash 4 DLC when Final Fantasy was clearly going to be the first pick. You're also making a hell of a lot of assumptions regarding the future of Smash DLC like the Mii costume coming back and Isaac being absolutely dead (I think he's got a shot if we get more DLC than the Fighter's Pass too). And again, there's a bunch of reasons to include characters beyond fan requests, but I know you won't relent on that, so I'll drop it (What a horrible crime for a game director to want to express some creativity and not just be a slave to the desires of the fan base even though his apparent bad decision making resulted in a game selling 14 million copies). And remember, not everything is made to please you or even just the main fanbase that cares enough to participate in something like the Smash Ballot.

Look, I'm not telling you to quit supporting Geno. I'm telling you to be responsible about the way you do it and not to be a negative ******* about the way you voice disappointment that will be counterproductive to your actual goals of supporting Geno. You can see where a great deal of the thread stands on this, and most of us are not keen to have people making a bad name for us. So, please consider that in whatever action you decide to take. This is my final response to you on this stuff. I'm not going to argue further.
We know that Geno was considered to be playable in Brawl. We know that Sakurai wanted to do something with Geno in Smash 4. Now Ultimate comes around and we get bloody nothing but a png file. There's all this acknowledgement of Geno, but it still all amounts to nothing so I'm going to keep saying that he keeps getting passed on since his demand is known pretty well. Also the only reason that Isaac could come back as DLC if there's another Fighter Pass is only because many people were outrage about his Assist Trophy and made all those phone calls. It's not a hell of an assumption to say Isaac is dead, we only got two DLC characters left which are going to be third party and Sakurai & his team fully believe that everyone loves that their favorite character can be an Assist Trophy and not be playable, so why would they bother making a character playable when they believe they satisfied a fans request to the fullest extent?

As for Piranha Plant, sure Sakurai can make whatever he wants, but that doesn't dissolve from criticism. I will continue to say that Piranha Plant was the worst thing that Sakurai ever done for Smash Bros, worst than tripping and Smash Tour. He's allowed to do it, just like how EA is allowed to put lootboxes in their games, but for every action there's consequences and because of that and the fan favorite massacre on November actually made me stop caring for this game's future and just want Ultimate to be finished already. Also no bloody crap the game sold 14 million when it had everyone return and Ridley got in, it's not like having one crappy waste of space character like Piranha Plant was going to sink the ship.

As for Negativity, I'm not saying that we should send death threats or yell at customer service. I'm saying that once that Geno Mii Costume get's revealed leave bad comments, write a letter expression how bad it is and leave a civil call in hopes that enough can reach higher up. Let them know that nothing would've been better and that we're not going to be satisfied with this "meet ya half way" method when it comes to Smash Bros. They need to know that Mii Costume & Assist Trophy isn't making people happy and they need to stop wasting their development time on crap like this.
 

Nicnac

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 27, 2018
Messages
670
Location
Glasgow, Scotland
Not exactly a stunning revelation but maybe looking at things at face value isn't a bad idea. Persona 5 and Dragon Quest were highly praised by Sakurai and Microsoft's Big Guy™ vouched for Banjo so maybe this DLC cycle isn't as unpredictable as we originally thought. Hindsight is 20/20, blah blah blah, but if you look at the history of Smash its kind of been this way, especially for third parties. Either Sakurai has talked up a series or a Biggie Cheese for some third party has talked about coming to Smash in some capacity. That said, I'm pretty confident that DLC #4 is going to be Doom Slayer because it honestly checks all the boxes.

-Sakurai has praised it? Yarp.
-Respective third party has talked about it in non-vague terms? Yarp.
-Major anniversary is this year? Uh-yup. (25th)

On this note, this is something that Geno has going for him because Sakurai has talked positively about him in the past. Hell, even most of characters that Sakurai has talked about negatively in the past (Ridley, Chrom, Daisy, etc) have wound up playable or assist trophies so it's not a super far reach either way.
Doom Slayer is my second pick for DLC now that BK are in, so let's hope you're right! DOOM (1993) was a genre definer, and I LOVED 2016's reboot! Did you see that article somewhere telling Nintendo fans in particular to get ready for Quakecon?
 

Ovaltine

Smash Master
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Dec 7, 2018
Messages
3,905
Doom Slayer is my second pick for DLC now that BK are in, so let's hope you're right! DOOM (1993) was a genre definer, and I LOVED 2016's reboot! Did you see that article somewhere telling Nintendo fans in particular to get ready for Quakecon?
I don't think they'd announce Doomguy in Smash during Quakecon, but I could see their Nintendo news leading up to it like DQXI S leading into Luminary's reveal.
 

MattX20

Smash Hero
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Aug 8, 2013
Messages
6,325
A thought occurred to me. I admit this is a stretch, but what if Geno is an exception to the whole "spirits=deconfirmation" rule that fans put in place because the character in question was already a spirit in his homegame to begin with?
 

Nicnac

Smash Ace
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670
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Glasgow, Scotland
I don't think they'd announce Doomguy in Smash during Quakecon, but I could see their Nintendo news leading up to it like DQXI S leading into Luminary's reveal.
Definitely not so close to Nintendo's doubler at E3, but it's tantalising me nonetheless.

Found the article, btw, and another one confirming that Bethesda and Nintendo have discussed Smash. I don't know how to link in text, so I'm just pasting. Sorry!

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...ises_for_nintendo_switch_owners_in_the_future

https://www.denofgeek.com/us/games/nintendo/281822/bethesda-super-smash-bros-ultimate-doom
 

Ovaltine

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A thought occurred to me. I admit this is a stretch, but what if Geno is an exception to the whole "spirits=deconfirmation" rule that fans put in place because the character in question was already a spirit in his homegame to begin with?
Yeah, definitely not something I'd count on either, but it'd make an interesting lore explanation. It'd also be incredibly fitting that, if spirits get promoted to playable at any point, Geno would be the first one.

Definitely not so close to Nintendo's doubler at E3, but it's tantalising me nonetheless.

Found the article, btw, and another one confirming that Bethesda and Nintendo have discussed Smash. I don't know how to link in text, so I'm just pasting. Sorry!

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...ises_for_nintendo_switch_owners_in_the_future

https://www.denofgeek.com/us/games/nintendo/281822/bethesda-super-smash-bros-ultimate-doom
Yep, they sure have, and that's pretty exciting. Maybe nothing came of it... or maybe something will. It's neat nonetheless. I grew up with OG Doom, so I'm absolutely not opposed to Doomguy's inclusion. Plus, the music? UNF.
 
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Firox

Smash Master
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Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,336
I can see why Doom Slayer would be an interesting and deserving inclusion to Smash, however, I have one massive gripe if he gets in:

He would further solidify any of the "leaks" that claimed he was in. Wouldn't that mean that Ryu Hyabusa would be far more probable as the 5th DLC in that case? Or wasn't there a leak that claimed Doom Slayer and Steve would get in? I, for one, would be pretty bummed to see either of those other two getting in over Geno.
 

Ovaltine

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Dec 7, 2018
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I can see why Doom Slayer would be an interesting and deserving inclusion to Smash, however, I have one massive gripe if he gets in:

He would further solidify any of the "leaks" that claimed he was in. Wouldn't that mean that Ryu Hyabusa would be far more probable as the 5th DLC in that case? Or wasn't there a leak that claimed Doom Slayer and Steve would get in? I, for one, would be pretty bummed to see either of those other two getting in over Geno.
Not quite. Doomguy has been in a bunch of 'leaks' and a lot of people have been predicting him. It doesn't mean that his inclusion would spell out Steve or Ryu Hayabusa. Look at Ken, for instance. Everyone and their mom expected him, and he was in the Grinch leak, as were Banjo and Kazooie. The other characters didn't happen, even though Ken and Banjo did.
 

Firox

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Not quite. Doomguy has been in a bunch of 'leaks' and a lot of people have been predicting him. It doesn't mean that his inclusion would spell out Steve or Ryu Hayabusa. Look at Ken, for instance. Everyone and their mom expected him, and he was in the Grinch leak, as were Banjo and Kazooie. The other characters didn't happen, even though Ken and Banjo did.
That makes sense. I hope you're right.
 

Fatmanonice

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A thought occurred to me. I admit this is a stretch, but what if Geno is an exception to the whole "spirits=deconfirmation" rule that fans put in place because the character in question was already a spirit in his homegame to begin with?
I've considered them being all hue-hue-hue about it because, yes, Geno's the doll and technically not the actual being and even the game goes as far to make this distinction but I don't know if they'd be that interested in buttering his fans' toast on this detail. Granted, they did bother to go out of their way to get Grant Kirkhope for Banjo fans and, well, pretty much everything about Joker and Hero's inclusions were "holy ****!?!" levels of fan service so I guess it's not totally unreasonable.
 

valkiriforce

Smash Ace
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Aug 26, 2018
Messages
637
I've mentioned this elsewhere but if Doomguy/Doom Slayer gets in that would seriously blow my mind, because I remember being disappointed that Wolf didn't make the last of the DLC cycle for Smash 4, so I thought it might be fun to create a mod for classic Doom with a Wolf O'Donnell player skin in January 2016. Jump some few years later and to not only get Wolf back but also possibly Doomguy, in the same game? That would be amazing. It kind of reminds me of when I made a Richter Mii Fighter in 2015 for Smash 3DS and then he suddenly shows up for real in the August 2018 Direct. That was crazy.

Maybe if Geno doesn't make the cut I'll have to see about doing something special for him at some point, not sure what exactly but I hope it doesn't come to that (although I probably should do something special anyway). Speaking of which, I would like to see more fan creations of Geno in other places, kind of like that reaction gif of him looking away from a laptop or the one of him dabbing left and right. It's nice to see things that keep the community lively.
 

xpnc

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A thought occurred to me. I admit this is a stretch, but what if Geno is an exception to the whole "spirits=deconfirmation" rule that fans put in place because the character in question was already a spirit in his homegame to begin with?
I just can't fathom there being 1200+ characters they're ok with saying will never be DLC. They can't know for sure what'll happen years down the line.
 

Nicnac

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670
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Glasgow, Scotland
I just can't fathom there being 1200+ characters they're ok with saying will never be DLC. They can't know for sure what'll happen years down the line.
It probably helps people say that a bit when most of them didn't really have a chance, if we're being honest. There are obvious outliers, like Geno, but most people would believe it when small-scale or practically unworkable characters are in there. I personally disagree and don't think spirits deconfirm, but I think it's easy to see why.
 

Ovaltine

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I've mentioned this elsewhere but if Doomguy/Doom Slayer gets in that would seriously blow my mind, because I remember being disappointed that Wolf didn't make the last of the DLC cycle for Smash 4, so I thought it might be fun to create a mod for classic Doom with a Wolf O'Donnell player skin in January 2016. Jump some few years later and to not only get Wolf back but also possibly Doomguy, in the same game? That would be amazing. It kind of reminds me of when I made a Richter Mii Fighter in 2015 for Smash 3DS and then he suddenly shows up for real in the August 2018 Direct. That was crazy.

Maybe if Geno doesn't make the cut I'll have to see about doing something special for him at some point, not sure what exactly but I hope it doesn't come to that (although I probably should do something special anyway). Speaking of which, I would like to see more fan creations of Geno in other places, kind of like that reaction gif of him looking away from a laptop or the one of him dabbing left and right. It's nice to see things that keep the community lively.
You should definitely make stuff if you have the time, in my opinion. Any fan contributions keep the community active and healthy, as well as showing Nine-tenders and Rectangle Enoch that we still love our boy. Be sure to show Mallow some love, too, though! He deserves it for being the absolute cutie he is!!
 

Nicnac

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Rectangle Enoch
lmao that got me

hallo it is me, Yo️uke Matsu️a, CEO of Rectangle Enoch! You may know us from our famous JRPG series, Last Daydream and Wyvern Adventure! Today we are here to announce that Jeeno will be making his way into Smash- have fun!
 

Firox

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lmao that got me

hallo it is me, Yo️uke Matsu️a, CEO of Rectangle Enoch! You may know us from our famous JRPG series, Last Daydream and Wyvern Adventure! Today we are here to announce that Jeeno will be making his way into Smash- have fun!
lol "Last Daydream"? I love it! Nimbus Conflict is my favorite character from #7. So edgy with that spiky blond hair.
 

SSGuy

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Would anyone object to me sharing ideas of original concepts that I have made inspired by Super Mario RPG characters? This may come in the form of rough concept art, paragraphs of brain dumps etc.
 

Firox

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Would anyone object to me sharing ideas of original concepts that I have made inspired by Super Mario RPG characters? This may come in the form of rough concept art, paragraphs of brain dumps etc.
Why not? What would we do otherwise, besides calculating Geno's chances off of hunches and misinformation? lol I'm not even being sarcastic.
 

ZelDan

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New Hampshire
Would anyone object to me sharing ideas of original concepts that I have made inspired by Super Mario RPG characters? This may come in the form of rough concept art, paragraphs of brain dumps etc.
I most certainly do object, I would HATE to see any of this stuff.

nah jk go for it, I'm intrigued
 
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EricTheGamerman

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Jul 21, 2014
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3,197
Gotta be honest, alot of this stuff you just said doesn't sit well with me at all. Maybe you're just explaining how other people see things and not necessarily how you see things, but what you're saying comes across to me is that people who don't support "big name NIntendo all-stars" are more likely to be "entitled," or that if someone is still upset about certain character omissions in this game, that they are likely " entitled" because hey, Sakurai pleased alot of people, so who cares about the people who aren't pleased! They should just have to deal with it!

Would it be more okay for a supporter of a "big name Nintendo All-star" to act aggressively than a supporter of a "non big name Nintendo all-star?"

So somebody can't feel bothered or upset about Waluigi, Isaac, geno, Ashley etc. not being playable because Ridley and K Rool made it in? What if somebody doesn't personally care about Ridley or K Rool?

Again, maybe this isn't you explaining your mindset and you're explaining how others' mindsets, or maybe I'm misinterpreting things here, but I don't like the idea of fanbases being held to some higher expectation or being judged more harshly just because of the status of the character they want, or that because Sakurai put so much effort into Smash Ultimate that people have to act like Sakurai and Smash Ultimate are perfect and that they cannot be criticized.

Maybe you are just saying that these certain fanbases should not be overly negative in their support or getting their voice heard, which I would agree with, but I would say this should be true of ANY fanbase, regardless of if their character is a "big name Nintendo all-star" or not.
No, my comments were not specific to anything I specifically think, but more of an observation about how the Smash community is starting to both look inside and outside. We already have a roster of 80 characters including several of which who haven't had major appearances in years and tons of third parties. Smash has already exceeded the expectations of basically everyone multiple times over. It's such a goddamn impressive achievement when you start to actually understand how much effort and commitment has been needed to get to this point. The game probably shouldn't even be able to exist, especially not in ****ing 2018-2019 when most game companies are being devastatingly awful in their practices, cut content, etc. Lots of people are just impressed with Smash at this point who don't even really care all that much about who's in or can be classified as hardcore fans.

But I've seen a slow burning resentment with the community from the outside just continue to grow over the past year. Parts of our fan base are nigh unapproachable to outsiders. We have a horrid reputation with straight up smell of all things at tournaments, and some of those tournaments also devolve into madness and salt pretty quickly. And the way we deal with newcomers? Take the number of people who ***** every time a character isn't exactly to their liking or isn't exactly who they wanted. Look at the ones who make every single thing about which newcomers are getting in and compose the most asinine theories from a whole bunch of nothing, regardless of it it follows any actual logic or even has something to do with Smash. Look at people making death threats because Waluigi wasn't in the game. Look at people saying a goddamn Nintendo Direct was moved because Isaac had earth based powers and it was insensitive. Look at the ****ing massive fallout from the Grinch leak and how insufferable everything was for about a month. Look at people who treat major third parties as **** additions to Smash despite how goddamn wide of a player base both the home game and Smash has. I can keep going on is the truly sad part.

We can go, "oh, well, those were only the bad eggs" of the community. And we're right to say that. But to outside people who don't really care enough to just give us benefit of the doubt and take the time to understand the details of every nuance, especially when you see all of those situations and near constant repetition of ****ty behaviors? Character support can also be problematic, just take legitimate supporters of Steve and how they were harassed too. Then there's stuff like the hierarchy problems I've talked in length about in the past that further negative perceptions. It all adds up over time, and I think while Smash the game has gotten considerable boosts in reputation, the Smash fan base has gone the complete opposite direction in the eyes of the public.

So, we have a community that isn't particularly well received pushing for characters in a game that already has so much fan service and work put into it. All stars have an easier time attracting attention and supporters just because they're better exposed and more likely to be a noticeable exclusion from the game. A more recognizable character is more easily supported by people than a less recognizable one, at least in the early stages of the process. That said, the issue is that there aren't genuinely many noticeable missing first party characters anymore. Of Nintendo's traditional all-stars, they're all B-list stars or below. A short list of Dixie Kong, Toad, Waluigi, and Bandanna Dee is all I can really come up with. You have a couple of hold-outs like Isaac, who while popular in the Smash community, don't exactly originate from super popular or mainstream games. Without the all-star status, it's a harder to sell to most people overall.

And here's where the real issues pop up. Characters that have less support and less mainstream success than others often become the source of a certain vitriol against Sakurai, Nintendo, etc. when fans don't see them as playable. The previous perception of Smash as largely complete/stupid impressive already makes those characters that aren't included seem like much less of a deal than people are making them. People generally understand that not every single fan request or supported character will get into the game and that there are just limits to everything in the world. And the weaker the character's all-star and notable status (which can include fan support, recency, importance to genre, etc.), the more likely this already public is going to be with the character's fan base and inevitably end up at the "entitled" comments. A character like Mach Rider being absent seems like an absolute non issue compared to the likes of King K. Rool and Ridley getting in, who had both massive fan support and operated in a certain level of all-star status as primary villains. It very much becomes a moment of oh, you didn't get everything you wanted and only most of what you wanted, I feel so bad you didn't get all your hopes and dreams... /s

This video probably describes this specific idea best honestly:

Some of this is a little bit of hyperbole and picking more obvious examples of a character like Mach Rider to be a bit of a punching bag for the sake of my commentary (I still think Mach Rider would be dope, but he's a convenient example to turn to when discussing things), but I've heard the phrase, "The Smash fandom probably doesn't deserve Sakurai at this point" more than a couple of times in the past year. The character status plays into how much wiggle room a character has in the eyes of the public. If it's someone who you can point to as an All-Star that they recognize, it's a much easier task to win them on to your side. But the further removed from that we get, the more work you have to do with arguing your case for your newcomer and why your newcomer should be in Smash with so many other choices. You lose more sympathy the further removed you are from recognizable and clearly absent from the roster. And then certain fan bases make perceptions better or worse on themselves depending on how they feel. Hence, a lot of characters can become vilified super easily with all of this in mind.

In some ways, I do unfortunately think bigger name characters get to get away with more aggression than smaller ones. Which is awful and I don't think that should be the case, but it's a pretty standard behavior people do when presented by hierarchy, often inadvertently. Take a look at famous people who get away with so much bull**** when most of our lives would probably be ruined if we committed similar offenses/actions. The underdog always has the harder fight to the top and is held to different standards from those around them.

And to be completely honest, if nothing Ultimate has done has appealed to you in some way, maybe it's time to reassess a lot of things. Nobody is ever going to get everyone they want and everything they want, that's why Smash has gone for such an impressively wide selection of characters from different genres, eras, and games. And a good majority of the content in the game has come directly from big fan desires, requests, and feedback. If you didn't get any of your most wanted characters in the game, I'm sorry, but that's just sometimes the luck of your particular draw in life. It's an entertainment product that appeals to 14 million people, chances are people aren't going to get everything they want and that some will get none of what they want. That's just probability at a certain point.

I don't really agree that certain characters should be held to higher standards than others or that some fans can get away with certain terrible behavior that others can't. It's unfair, but humans tend to pretty unfair by nature when given the opportunity. I don't think the negative route leads anywhere positive for any fan base though. If it continues/gets bad enough, I think you stand a decent chance of being entirely misrepresented for the remainder of the speculation cycle or disowned from the community in general. It's all super frustrating, but that's why I think every fan base already sort of straddles the "line of entitlement." It's getting harder and harder for all fan bases at this point, and I don't think it really gets easier as we move forward.

Keep in mind everyone that this is of course based on personal observation and anecdotal evidence. I'm not trying to claim this applies to all Smash fans, hardcore or casual, or that all fan bases are in any way greater than others/worse than others. It's just a phenomenon I've seen a bit more of and I wanted to give my take on. Thanks for coming to my long-winded and probably desperately in need of editing Ted Talk.
 

ZelDan

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
3,303
Location
New Hampshire
No, my comments were not specific to anything I specifically think, but more of an observation about how the Smash community is starting to both look inside and outside. We already have a roster of 80 characters including several of which who haven't had major appearances in years and tons of third parties. Smash has already exceeded the expectations of basically everyone multiple times over. It's such a goddamn impressive achievement when you start to actually understand how much effort and commitment has been needed to get to this point. The game probably shouldn't even be able to exist, especially not in ****ing 2018-2019 when most game companies are being devastatingly awful in their practices, cut content, etc. Lots of people are just impressed with Smash at this point who don't even really care all that much about who's in or can be classified as hardcore fans.

But I've seen a slow burning resentment with the community from the outside just continue to grow over the past year. Parts of our fan base are nigh unapproachable to outsiders. We have a horrid reputation with straight up smell of all things at tournaments, and some of those tournaments also devolve into madness and salt pretty quickly. And the way we deal with newcomers? Take the number of people who ***** every time a character isn't exactly to their liking or isn't exactly who they wanted. Look at the ones who make every single thing about which newcomers are getting in and compose the most asinine theories from a whole bunch of nothing, regardless of it it follows any actual logic or even has something to do with Smash. Look at people making death threats because Waluigi wasn't in the game. Look at people saying a goddamn Nintendo Direct was moved because Isaac had earth based powers and it was insensitive. Look at the ****ing massive fallout from the Grinch leak and how insufferable everything was for about a month. Look at people who treat major third parties as **** additions to Smash despite how goddamn wide of a player base both the home game and Smash has. I can keep going on is the truly sad part.

We can go, "oh, well, those were only the bad eggs" of the community. And we're right to say that. But to outside people who don't really care enough to just give us benefit of the doubt and take the time to understand the details of every nuance, especially when you see all of those situations and near constant repetition of ****ty behaviors? Character support can also be problematic, just take legitimate supporters of Steve and how they were harassed too. Then there's stuff like the hierarchy problems I've talked in length about in the past that further negative perceptions. It all adds up over time, and I think while Smash the game has gotten considerable boosts in reputation, the Smash fan base has gone the complete opposite direction in the eyes of the public.

So, we have a community that isn't particularly well received pushing for characters in a game that already has so much fan service and work put into it. All stars have an easier time attracting attention and supporters just because they're better exposed and more likely to be a noticeable exclusion from the game. A more recognizable character is more easily supported by people than a less recognizable one, at least in the early stages of the process. That said, the issue is that there aren't genuinely many noticeable missing first party characters anymore. Of Nintendo's traditional all-stars, they're all B-list stars or below. A short list of Dixie Kong, Toad, Waluigi, and Bandanna Dee is all I can really come up with. You have a couple of hold-outs like Isaac, who while popular in the Smash community, don't exactly originate from super popular or mainstream games. Without the all-star status, it's a harder to sell to most people overall.

And here's where the real issues pop up. Characters that have less support and less mainstream success than others often become the source of a certain vitriol against Sakurai, Nintendo, etc. when fans don't see them as playable. The previous perception of Smash as largely complete/stupid impressive already makes those characters that aren't included seem like much less of a deal than people are making them. People generally understand that not every single fan request or supported character will get into the game and that there are just limits to everything in the world. And the weaker the character's all-star and notable status (which can include fan support, recency, importance to genre, etc.), the more likely this already public is going to be with the character's fan base and inevitably end up at the "entitled" comments. A character like Mach Rider being absent seems like an absolute non issue compared to the likes of King K. Rool and Ridley getting in, who had both massive fan support and operated in a certain level of all-star status as primary villains. It very much becomes a moment of oh, you didn't get everything you wanted and only most of what you wanted, I feel so bad you didn't get all your hopes and dreams... /s

This video probably describes this specific idea best honestly:

Some of this is a little bit of hyperbole and picking more obvious examples of a character like Mach Rider to be a bit of a punching bag for the sake of my commentary (I still think Mach Rider would be dope, but he's a convenient example to turn to when discussing things), but I've heard the phrase, "The Smash fandom probably doesn't deserve Sakurai at this point" more than a couple of times in the past year. The character status plays into how much wiggle room a character has in the eyes of the public. If it's someone who you can point to as an All-Star that they recognize, it's a much easier task to win them on to your side. But the further removed from that we get, the more work you have to do with arguing your case for your newcomer and why your newcomer should be in Smash with so many other choices. You lose more sympathy the further removed you are from recognizable and clearly absent from the roster. And then certain fan bases make perceptions better or worse on themselves depending on how they feel. Hence, a lot of characters can become vilified super easily with all of this in mind.

In some ways, I do unfortunately think bigger name characters get to get away with more aggression than smaller ones. Which is awful and I don't think that should be the case, but it's a pretty standard behavior people do when presented by hierarchy, often inadvertently. Take a look at famous people who get away with so much bull**** when most of our lives would probably be ruined if we committed similar offenses/actions. The underdog always has the harder fight to the top and is held to different standards from those around them.

And to be completely honest, if nothing Ultimate has done has appealed to you in some way, maybe it's time to reassess a lot of things. Nobody is ever going to get everyone they want and everything they want, that's why Smash has gone for such an impressively wide selection of characters from different genres, eras, and games. And a good majority of the content in the game has come directly from big fan desires, requests, and feedback. If you didn't get any of your most wanted characters in the game, I'm sorry, but that's just sometimes the luck of your particular draw in life. It's an entertainment product that appeals to 14 million people, chances are people aren't going to get everything they want and that some will get none of what they want. That's just probability at a certain point.

I don't really agree that certain characters should be held to higher standards than others or that some fans can get away with certain terrible behavior that others can't. It's unfair, but humans tend to pretty unfair by nature when given the opportunity. I don't think the negative route leads anywhere positive for any fan base though. If it continues/gets bad enough, I think you stand a decent chance of being entirely misrepresented for the remainder of the speculation cycle or disowned from the community in general. It's all super frustrating, but that's why I think every fan base already sort of straddles the "line of entitlement." It's getting harder and harder for all fan bases at this point, and I don't think it really gets easier as we move forward.

Keep in mind everyone that this is of course based on personal observation and anecdotal evidence. I'm not trying to claim this applies to all Smash fans, hardcore or casual, or that all fan bases are in any way greater than others/worse than others. It's just a phenomenon I've seen a bit more of and I wanted to give my take on. Thanks for coming to my long-winded and probably desperately in need of editing Ted Talk.
Hmmm, fair enough. As someone who hates generalizations, it does suck to see that they are so prevalent. As an Isaac fan, it does bug me when people decide to **** on the ENTIRE fanbase because some people decided to show a bit too much enthusiasm over the japan earthquake. Hell, even as someone who is not a fan of Steve being playable, I never had anything against genuine fans or the Minecraft IP itself, so I can understand the frustration that the real fans probably feel when the Steve memer/strolls give them a bad rep.
 

Fatmanonice

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I'm still holding onto the thought that the last DLC character is going to be a decent sized fan pick. Aside from Banjo, I feel like the picks have mostly been a combination of corporate picks and Sakurai picks so far (which is something else that's in Doom Slayer's favor, honestly). This isn't to say that Joker and Hero aren't liked but, especially when we've talked about Hero, demand wasn't super high for either and it's pretty obvious Sakurai played favorites for both. Hero's definitely a Sakurai pick but they haven't exactly been subtle but the advertising prospects of the character either (and I admit, it's worked on me and I'll probably get DQ XI S when it comes out). While a fan pick, Banjo's definitely a corporate pick too as it highlights the Nintendo/Microsoft bromance better than anyone else and Sakurai kind of insinuated that it would have been borderline impossible and probably wouldn't have bothered if Microsoft wasn't so cooperative.

I would argue Bayo was more of a fan pick than a corporate pick because, by the time she came out, Bayonetta 2 was a year and a half old and a lot of places didn't even stock it anymore. They did a minor rerelease of Bayonetta 2: Electric Boogaloo but the lifespan sales of the game on the Wii U were only 300k, which is pretty much the definition of "meh" for a AAA third party like SEGA. That said, there really wasn't a marketing incentive behind her like there was, say, Corrin, Cloud, and Ryu. It was pretty much a fan pick for the sake of being a fan pick and the Fighter Pass doesn't really have that yet.

To further illustrate this idea, Ridley, Chrom, Daisy, and Dark Samus were all characters that Sakurai had turned down in the past but added them in Smash solely because fans wanted them. Obviously, K. Rool is like this too. Marketing wise, there was no real incentive outside of Smash because the character hadn't had a notable appearance in over a decade. This said, K. Rool was basically the last pure fan pick so far. Isabelle was definitely a corporate pick, arguably more so than a fan pick, and Ken, Inceniroar, and the Plant were all pure Sakurai picks (even noting that Decidueye was much more requested). Circling back, this is why I'm expecting the last character to be a fan pick or a Sakurai/fan pick because the corporate/Sakurai picks have already been pretty heavy handed, especially if Doom Slayer winds up being true.
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,336
I'm still holding onto the thought that the last DLC character is going to be a decent sized fan pick. Aside from Banjo, I feel like the picks have mostly been a combination of corporate picks and Sakurai picks so far (which is something else that's in Doom Slayer's favor, honestly). This isn't to say that Joker and Hero aren't liked but, especially when we've talked about Hero, demand wasn't super high for either and it's pretty obvious Sakurai played favorites for both. Hero's definitely a Sakurai pick but they haven't exactly been subtle but the advertising prospects of the character either (and I admit, it's worked on me and I'll probably get DQ XI S when it comes out). While a fan pick, Banjo's definitely a corporate pick too as it highlights the Nintendo/Microsoft bromance better than anyone else and Sakurai kind of insinuated that it would have been borderline impossible and probably wouldn't have bothered if Microsoft wasn't so cooperative.

I would argue Bayo was more of a fan pick than a corporate pick because, by the time she came out, Bayonetta 2 was a year and a half old and a lot of places didn't even stock it anymore. They did a minor rerelease of Bayonetta 2: Electric Boogaloo but the lifespan sales of the game on the Wii U were only 300k, which is pretty much the definition of "meh" for a AAA third party like SEGA. That said, there really wasn't a marketing incentive behind her like there was, say, Corrin, Cloud, and Ryu. It was pretty much a fan pick for the sake of being a fan pick and the Fighter Pass doesn't really have that yet.

To further illustrate this idea, Ridley, Chrom, Daisy, and Dark Samus were all characters that Sakurai had turned down in the past but added them in Smash solely because fans wanted them. Obviously, K. Rool is like this too. Marketing wise, there was no real incentive outside of Smash because the character hadn't had a notable appearance in over a decade. This said, K. Rool was basically the last pure fan pick so far. Isabelle was definitely a corporate pick, arguably more so than a fan pick, and Ken, Inceniroar, and the Plant were all pure Sakurai picks (even noting that Decidueye was much more requested). Circling back, this is why I'm expecting the last character to be a fan pick or a Sakurai/fan pick because the corporate/Sakurai picks have already been pretty heavy handed, especially if Doom Slayer winds up being true.
Totally agree with you. Isabelle was a shameless corporate pick to boost hype for Animal Crossing while Ken, Inceniroar and PP were definitely Sakurai's work. So far, I would say Joker and Hero were corporate/Sakurai picks, but I would say B-K is a pretty solid fan pick. That said, if Doomslayer gets in, I would probably put him in the corporate/Sakurai bin. Either way, I sincerely hope that DLC #5 is something ludicrously epic. After B-K and the others, it would be beyond crappy to just end on a whimper. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time...
 

EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,197
I'm still holding onto the thought that the last DLC character is going to be a decent sized fan pick. Aside from Banjo, I feel like the picks have mostly been a combination of corporate picks and Sakurai picks so far (which is something else that's in Doom Slayer's favor, honestly). This isn't to say that Joker and Hero aren't liked but, especially when we've talked about Hero, demand wasn't super high for either and it's pretty obvious Sakurai played favorites for both. Hero's definitely a Sakurai pick but they haven't exactly been subtle but the advertising prospects of the character either (and I admit, it's worked on me and I'll probably get DQ XI S when it comes out). While a fan pick, Banjo's definitely a corporate pick too as it highlights the Nintendo/Microsoft bromance better than anyone else and Sakurai kind of insinuated that it would have been borderline impossible and probably wouldn't have bothered if Microsoft wasn't so cooperative.

I would argue Bayo was more of a fan pick than a corporate pick because, by the time she came out, Bayonetta 2 was a year and a half old and a lot of places didn't even stock it anymore. They did a minor rerelease of Bayonetta 2: Electric Boogaloo but the lifespan sales of the game on the Wii U were only 300k, which is pretty much the definition of "meh" for a AAA third party like SEGA. That said, there really wasn't a marketing incentive behind her like there was, say, Corrin, Cloud, and Ryu. It was pretty much a fan pick for the sake of being a fan pick and the Fighter Pass doesn't really have that yet.

To further illustrate this idea, Ridley, Chrom, Daisy, and Dark Samus were all characters that Sakurai had turned down in the past but added them in Smash solely because fans wanted them. Obviously, K. Rool is like this too. Marketing wise, there was no real incentive outside of Smash because the character hadn't had a notable appearance in over a decade. This said, K. Rool was basically the last pure fan pick so far. Isabelle was definitely a corporate pick, arguably more so than a fan pick, and Ken, Inceniroar, and the Plant were all pure Sakurai picks (even noting that Decidueye was much more requested). Circling back, this is why I'm expecting the last character to be a fan pick or a Sakurai/fan pick because the corporate/Sakurai picks have already been pretty heavy handed, especially if Doom Slayer winds up being true.
I wouldn't say they've been heavy handed in any direction. We have three Fighter's Pass characters. One for Sakurai in Joker. One for fan requests in Banjo Kazooie. And one, "it's complicated" that appears corporate to some people, legacy to others, etc. with Hero. I don't like Banjo Kazooie being a considered a corporate pick either because they could have gone for other characters easily and it feels a bit like de-legitimizing the support Banjo Kazooie held. Like, I sincerely doubt that Banjo Kazooie would have been chosen without the fan support. Hell, if they didn't have the Smash fan base, what would Banjo Kazooie be these days but a nostalgic reminder of the past people occasionally talk about with some fondness.

Bayonetta seems like much, much more of a marketing pick than Banjo ever could. Her games didn't sell well, but Nintendo invested in her and clearly had some ideas for the future too. What better way to increase awareness of the character than putting her in Smash? It wasn't directly for Bayonetta 2 on Wii U, but it's easy to see they had future plans for Bayonetta on Nintendo platforms all the same even by 2016.

I think characters are allowed to belong to a variety of sub-reasons for inclusion, but then I legitimately don't know who the hell would be a "pure fan pick." I just don't really think that exists in Smash right now, and I only sort of see it applying to Geno of all characters even talked about for DLC.

Calling out Ken as a Sakurai pick seems really off too. Like Ken's a super beloved Street Fighter character and another Echo fighter, I think he just made a whole lot of sense for inclusion regardless of Sakurai's intentions. Only Incineroar and Plant really feel like Sakurai picks from the roster. Inkling, Daisy, Ridley, King K. Rool, Simon Belmont/Richter Belmont, Dark Samus, and Chrom all came from fan demand in some way. And then Isabelle I guess kind of falls into corporate pick... but she's also stupidly popular as a character in general, just not as much for Smash... And again, they all belong to numerous sub-categories. I just don't really think the Sakurai/Corporate picks have been emphasized in the way you're implying them to have been.
 

StormC

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
8,298
The Ridley fans came together and organized a massive book to send to Nintendo after the stage boss was revealed. They even translated it into Japanese. It had fanart, essays, etc. all in it. It was hundreds and hundreds of pages (not sure on the details, I believe Zem-raj Zem-raj organized it). The Switch era has proven that Nintendo does hear the hardcore fans, but the importance of optics cannot be underestimated, especially when we have no guarantee that there will be any DLC after the Fighters Pass and the fight for future characters could be going years and years. You don't want to just convince Nintendo, you want to convince others to join your cause. Fair or not, a lot of people will see someone visibly upset that a semi-obscure character wasn't included in a 75 character roster full of fan favorites as being "entitled." Prove them wrong.

The last thing you should do is advocate being reactionary.

Also just want to say that EricTheGamerman EricTheGamerman has some of the best posts in this thread and I always advocate hearing him out.

He's allowed to do it, just like how EA is allowed to put lootboxes in their games
A character in a fighting game that you don't like is not comparable to an industry-wide problem where consumers are regularly exploited.
 
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Penguinbowler

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 11, 2019
Messages
142
As for Piranha Plant, sure Sakurai can make whatever he wants, but that doesn't dissolve from criticism. I will continue to say that Piranha Plant was the worst thing that Sakurai ever done for Smash Bros, worst than tripping and Smash Tour. He's allowed to do it, just like how EA is allowed to put lootboxes in their games, but for every action there's consequences and because of that and the fan favorite massacre on November actually made me stop caring for this game's future and just want Ultimate to be finished already. Also no bloody crap the game sold 14 million when it had everyone return and Ridley got in, it's not like having one crappy waste of space character like Piranha Plant was going to sink the ship.
How is Piranha Plant's inclusion worse then say, Wii Fit Trainer, R.O.B, or Game & Watch? Yes he's just a common enemy, but come on, the plant's as iconic as anyone else, and Mario, more then any other game, loves it's mooks. I'm dead serious, mario enemies are more vital to the mario series then a lot of named characters, how else do you explain the remakes of the mario and luigi games gaining an entire mode STARRING the guys. As much as people hate to admit it, the regular old goomba is given more love then some franchises. Mario's enemy line-up is probably as iconic in video games as he is, and smash is about celebrating what makes video games great.
 

ZelDan

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,303
Location
New Hampshire
How is Piranha Plant's inclusion worse then say, Wii Fit Trainer, R.O.B, or Game & Watch? Yes he's just a common enemy, but come on, the plant's as iconic as anyone else, and Mario, more then any other game, loves it's mooks. I'm dead serious, mario enemies are more vital to the mario series then a lot of named characters, how else do you explain the remakes of the mario and luigi games gaining an entire mode STARRING the guys. As much as people hate to admit it, the regular old goomba is given more love then some franchises. Mario's enemy line-up is probably as iconic in video games as he is, and smash is about celebrating what makes video games great.
Wii Fit, R.O.B and G&W atleast repped new franchises from Nintendo and helped to represent different parts of Nintendo history, as opposed to being Mario rep #1,098,765. They were also both atleast the main, most important figures in their own games.
 
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Fatmanonice

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Okay, let me frame it this way: compare Bayo with Joker. Persona 5 has exploded in merch and cameos in the last year. There's even an anime series; it's kind of nuts. In comparison, Bayonetta has been kind of quiet and fans are just sort of waiting for Bayonetta 3 at the moment. Even Banjo has a ton of merch on the horizon. Yes, the reasons why characters get added is pretty nuanced but there are definitely major factors at play, the three big I pointed out.
 

EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,197
Okay, let me frame it this way: compare Bayo with Joker. Persona 5 has exploded in merch and cameos in the last year. There's even an anime series; it's kind of nuts. In comparison, Bayonetta has been kind of quiet and fans are just sort of waiting for Bayonetta 3 at the moment. Even Banjo has a ton of merch on the horizon. Yes, the reasons why characters get added is pretty nuanced but there are definitely major factors at play, the three big I pointed out.
Well, that's kind of standard fare for Atlus and Persona. Like Yu from Persona 4 went through the exact same process that Joker is currently going through. Persona is basically the Mario of Atlus as their biggest franchise, so of course they make a ton of stuff around the games. That's just what they do, so nothing with Joker surprises me. Bayonetta is a much smaller series than Persona overall, and much less important to the parent companies. Bayonetta also definitely got an anime series as well too and got some decent merch from what I remember.

And I suspect the Banjo Kazooie merch has more to do with him being in Smash than anything else. We'd see that of basically any character that get's included in Smash. You'd be real stupid to not promote the hell out of your character after they get in Smash (Watch Square Enix do exactly this if Geno gets in lol). I'm agreeing with you that there are factors at play... but we also didn't get Persona 5 on Switch and Banjo Kazooie doesn't have anything substantial outside of Smash even in sight. If these characters are just more corporate shill picks, then basically all Smash characters are except for the specific Sakurai picks of Ice Climbers, Pit, etc.
 

Penguinbowler

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 11, 2019
Messages
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Wii Fit, R.O.B and G&W atleast repped new franchises from Nintendo and helped to represent different parts of Nintendo history, as opposed to being Mario rep #1,098,765. They were also both atleast the main, most important figures in their own games.
Oh no, the most iconic video game franchise in history and nintendos flagship franchise and mascot have more roster spots then anyone else, it's almost like the mario series has more games and sub-series then anyone else. As for importance, while i'd argue Kamek and Toad are more important, the regular joe enemies are as iconic to video games as Mario is. Look at the amount of merchandise made and sold based on them, love it or hate it, mario enemies are more well known and loved then, as much as it hurts me to say this, guys like Isaac. Sure the hardcore fanbase might like them less, but for the majority of the people who don't obsess over smash bros Piranha Plant is a choice they can look and laugh at, as most people don't care what the roster is like as long as it's fun. One thing that i feel is tough for the majority of the fanbase to swallow when talking about rosters is most people wouldn't have any idea who Someone like Andy from advance wars is, but will recognize the potted plant.

Finally i think you may be a tad hypocritical to make those arguments in a Geno thread, because he is yet another mario rep, and, despite what his fans wishes, is one of the less important named characters.
 
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MattOnwheels

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Geno is the last of the true fan request holdovers. I'd be shocked of Sakurai didn't at least ask for his inclusion. Whether he was allowed or not is the question.
 

SSGuy

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How is Piranha Plant's inclusion worse then say, Wii Fit Trainer, R.O.B, or Game & Watch? Yes he's just a common enemy, but come on, the plant's as iconic as anyone else, and Mario, more then any other game, loves it's mooks. I'm dead serious, mario enemies are more vital to the mario series then a lot of named characters, how else do you explain the remakes of the mario and luigi games gaining an entire mode STARRING the guys. As much as people hate to admit it, the regular old goomba is given more love then some franchises. Mario's enemy line-up is probably as iconic in video games as he is, and smash is about celebrating what makes video games great.
Piranha Plant is literally a tumor on a really solid character select screen. If cuts have to be made for Smash 6, that pos is at the front of the line.

If your all time most wanted or favorite character on the list was Plant, then you without a doubt have a single digit iq

I also cannot forget to mention the fact that Plant gave all Sora fanboys ammunition against anyone who wanted Geno.
 
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Fatmanonice

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The Banjo merch more or less started with the 20th anniversary last year but I digress. It's like how K. Rool is probably not going to have any merch outside of his Amiibo anytime soon. You can't really say that about any of the DLC characters so far, including Pirhana Plant ironically enough. That's kind of what this DLC is missing at the moment: someone's that's probably not going to be plastered on a liscensed T-shirt or have an official stuffed animal or whatever anytime soon. Little Mac, Palutena, and Shulk are other characters that are like this. You know what I mean? Somebody that's not particularly super lucrative but was added predominantly to please fans if little else.
 

EricTheGamerman

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The Banjo merch more or less started with the 20th anniversary last year but I digress. It's like how K. Rool is probably not going to have any merch outside of his Amiibo anytime soon. You can't really say that about any of the DLC characters so far, including Pirhana Plant ironically enough. That's kind of what this DLC is missing at the moment: someone's that's probably not going to be plastered on a liscensed T-shirt or have an official stuffed animal or whatever anytime soon. Little Mac, Palutena, and Shulk are other characters that are like this. You know what I mean? Somebody that's not particularly super lucrative but was added predominantly to please fans if little else.
Even Geno would have additional reason to be in. I don’t know what it would be, but by the terms you’re defining of a “lucrative” character choice even a basic Geno Amiibo would be reason to sell him. Or maybe it’s genuinely a new Super Mario RPG game or whatever. I just don’t think the kind of character you’re talking about really exists in Smash or will exist in Smash. Characters like King K Rool and Banjo Kazooie exist in Smash 100% out of fan demand, but they have other lesser reasons to exist in Smash. I think Geno would be cut from the exact same cloth.

Like a little bit of Banjo merch pales in comparison to how much Steve or Chief would have been promoting, both of which have huge games coming up that could easily be advertised. The true corporate pick would have been one of them, not Banjo.
 
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