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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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wynn728

Banned via Warnings
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I'd rather the first option considering I doubt that he's a fighter this time around, unless we get individual DLC.

Honestly, considering they have the rights for him in Ultimate, it's pretty frustrating that he isn't actually in. He's a major WoL fight, yeah, but that's literally just playing pretend with a PNG. It'd be like if I taped a picture of Geno to my Switch or TV screen. There being very little time to add him in the base roster is understandable, but then you'd think that'd mean he'd be pushed to DLC, right? Nope, apparently not.

I think him being an AT would have been so much better. Yes, it'd mean even more certainly that he isn't in, but 1) we wouldn't be left in limbo, 2) it'd possibly mean better chances for the next Smash as a fighter, and 3) we'd finally have a brand-new 3D model of Geno from Nintendo and company. He'd at least be tangible. He'd be there.

A PNG slapped into the game and a bootleg rip-off 'Geno' via the Mii costume is not Geno being 'there', playing pretend be damned.
Well that's definitely one problem with Sakurai, he thinks that would be good enough. Sakurai admits that he doesn't look at how fans react or really try to understand how fans thinks. So in his mind people were going to be completely fine with there character not being playable when they see that the spirit of their favorite character was "Legendary," like it's Sakurai's way of saying "We got you. We love these characters just like you do. They're important." when in reality it just doesn't do anything at all for the fans. And then there's Mii Costumes where Sakurai believes that they are like the best thing ever and that people are fully convince that they're playing as the character they always wanted. In his mind people cheered for the Rex Mii Costume being revealed. And he also believes that Assist Trophies are super hype announcement that don't disappoint anyone except for the fact that 9 times out of 10 the reaction to a favorite character being an Assist Trophy went like "NO!!!! WHY WHY WHY?!?!?" I'm pretty positive that he sat down with marketing and they all agreed that they would hold the Shadow Assist Trophy back until the November Direct so people would think "Is Shadow coming back? I'm getting worried." only for them to bust the roof of with his reveal and get so much praise.

Sakurai, while being great at making characters and listening to certain fan feedback, is really out of touch with the community. Which is why we keep getting stupid things like that Rathalos screenshot that look like a one for one recreation of the Golden Sun final boss fight, because Sakurai thinks people were going to love the look not that Isaac might've been hinted at. Thank God Banjo got after they showed that green witch in the custom stage builder reveal, there would've been a blood bath. Sakurai honestly thinks that doing this "meet you half way" style would please people when honestly it doesn't. No one cares about playing pretend with Mii Costume and people would rather the character not show up as an Assist Trophy if they weren't considered. For me Sakurai should either go all the way with the character or don't do it at all because as a customer who buy these games I'm not changing my perspective just to force myself to be happy because Sakurai decided that this course of action was for the best. He needs to get with the fans and understand them better. You can't please everyone, but you can do a lot better job at it if you know how they think.
 

Ovaltine

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
3,905
Well that's definitely one problem with Sakurai, he thinks that would be good enough. Sakurai admits that he doesn't look at how fans react or really try to understand how fans thinks. So in his mind people were going to be completely fine with there character not being playable when they see that the spirit of their favorite character was "Legendary," like it's Sakurai's way of saying "We got you. We love these characters just like you do. They're important." when in reality it just doesn't do anything at all for the fans. And then there's Mii Costumes where Sakurai believes that they are like the best thing ever and that people are fully convince that they're playing as the character they always wanted. In his mind people cheered for the Rex Mii Costume being revealed. And he also believes that Assist Trophies are super hype announcement that don't disappoint anyone except for the fact that 9 times out of 10 the reaction to a favorite character being an Assist Trophy went like "NO!!!! WHY WHY WHY?!?!?" I'm pretty positive that he sat down with marketing and they all agreed that they would hold the Shadow Assist Trophy back until the November Direct so people would think "Is Shadow coming back? I'm getting worried." only for them to bust the roof of with his reveal and get so much praise.

Sakurai, while being great at making characters and listening to certain fan feedback, is really out of touch with the community. Which is why we keep getting stupid things like that Rathalos screenshot that look like a one for one recreation of the Golden Sun final boss fight, because Sakurai thinks people were going to love the look not that Isaac might've been hinted at. Thank God Banjo got after they showed that green witch in the custom stage builder reveal, there would've been a blood bath. Sakurai honestly thinks that doing this "meet you half way" style would please people when honestly it doesn't. No one cares about playing pretend with Mii Costume and people would rather the character not show up as an Assist Trophy if they weren't considered. For me Sakurai should either go all the way with the character or don't do it at all because as a customer who buy these games I'm not changing my perspective just to force myself to be happy because Sakurai decided that this course of action was for the best. He needs to get with the fans and understand them better. You can't please everyone, but you can do a lot better job at it if you know how they think.
I'd also say that the thing with characters like Isaac, Geno, and Banjo is that they're characters people want a revival for, and I honestly wonder whether Nintendo or Sakurai are aware of what their inclusions would (and in the case of B-K, do) mean. Either the character will make a glorious return started by Smash, or they will have one last, big hurrah via Smash. As a Banjo fan, him and Kazooie getting in means the world to me. I'm so, so happy that they're finally home, and as much as I ADORE K. Rool, they're gonna usurp his spot as my main. They mean so much to me, and they haven't been around in years.

Isaac is the same way for a lot of people, even having a dead franchise and everything (even moreso than B-K, because at least they still get merch and acknowledgment). Geno is a character that hasn't been used in even longer, over 20 freaking years (not counting the SSS cameo). Some people have been waiting decades for him, much as I've waited exactly two decades to see B-K get in Smash. I've been a Geno fan for a shorter amount of time, and it's already been incredibly rough. I can't imagine how terrible his very, very long-time fans feel to get shafted so often.

When it comes to a character like, say, Waluigi or Shadow, their lack of inclusion is sad, but at least we can look forward to their future appearances in other games. The aforementioned three don't have that (or at least Isaac and Geno don't, because B-K has Smash inclusion now, something to look forward to!). That's what makes those situations that much more painful. At least Isaac is first party, too (well, second party, but just about as easy to just use), but Geno? He's in SE's hands. That makes a revival so much harder outside of Smash. Smash is so make-or-break for Geno that it hurts.

When it comes to characters like these, we just want to see them come back. If they can't be in Smash, something else outside of it would be fine. We don't ask for much. We just... want to see them again. Thankfully, I'm not an Isaac fan (because god, that would be suffering), but as a Geno fan, it's rough when we're basically the ultimate afterthought. We get a few SMRPG nods and a PNG in terms of new material this game... and that's it. I honestly can't fathom how Nintendo thinks people will be ecstatic about that. Understanding that it's unfortunate compensation, fine, but according to Sabi, they were so blown away by how bad Isaac's AT was received. They think people will be happy with that, and, well... that's clearly not the case.
 

EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,197
Well that's definitely one problem with Sakurai, he thinks that would be good enough. Sakurai admits that he doesn't look at how fans react or really try to understand how fans thinks. So in his mind people were going to be completely fine with there character not being playable when they see that the spirit of their favorite character was "Legendary," like it's Sakurai's way of saying "We got you. We love these characters just like you do. They're important." when in reality it just doesn't do anything at all for the fans. And then there's Mii Costumes where Sakurai believes that they are like the best thing ever and that people are fully convince that they're playing as the character they always wanted. In his mind people cheered for the Rex Mii Costume being revealed. And he also believes that Assist Trophies are super hype announcement that don't disappoint anyone except for the fact that 9 times out of 10 the reaction to a favorite character being an Assist Trophy went like "NO!!!! WHY WHY WHY?!?!?" I'm pretty positive that he sat down with marketing and they all agreed that they would hold the Shadow Assist Trophy back until the November Direct so people would think "Is Shadow coming back? I'm getting worried." only for them to bust the roof of with his reveal and get so much praise.

Sakurai, while being great at making characters and listening to certain fan feedback, is really out of touch with the community. Which is why we keep getting stupid things like that Rathalos screenshot that look like a one for one recreation of the Golden Sun final boss fight, because Sakurai thinks people were going to love the look not that Isaac might've been hinted at. Thank God Banjo got after they showed that green witch in the custom stage builder reveal, there would've been a blood bath. Sakurai honestly thinks that doing this "meet you half way" style would please people when honestly it doesn't. No one cares about playing pretend with Mii Costume and people would rather the character not show up as an Assist Trophy if they weren't considered. For me Sakurai should either go all the way with the character or don't do it at all because as a customer who buy these games I'm not changing my perspective just to force myself to be happy because Sakurai decided that this course of action was for the best. He needs to get with the fans and understand them better. You can't please everyone, but you can do a lot better job at it if you know how they think.
You've been through this several times and people have disagreed with you for a lot of reasons. If you genuinely want to see what fans think of an Assist Trophy, go into the Isaac thread and ask them. Without his assist trophy, Golden Sun gets only Spirits, which is an objectively worse reality than the one we have now for most people, myself included.

I also call bull**** on the malicious intent of Sakurai. There's a ton of content to show off between reveal and release, and every single Direct had the job of deconfirming some characters through Assist Trophy reveals. If he had shown off Shadow early on, then he might have just been swapped with Waluigi who didn't show up til the end and caused a different outcry. At best he could have shown off all the Assist Trophies at the very beginning... but that offers him no tangible benefit and wouldn't solve a damn thing since some fans will just continue to complain, so I don't blame him for showing off what is objectively a pretty substantial feature of the game (I know you downright hate them, but they are a substantial part of the game like it or not).

And to address all of the supposed "Hints." The Smash fan base is rabid and sometimes downright paranoid when it comes to everything in existence acting as a hint or the basis for a theory. Of all the things Sakurai should be spending his time on, checking to make sure his every single piece of information and little screen shot or trailer inclusion isn't inspiring another dumb as hell chairs moment ain't one of them. Fans have got to take repsonsibility for their own hype in situations including stuff like a generic Green witch and a bunch of sword characters fighting Rathalos. That's not on Sakurai and it shouldn't be to begin with, we're the people who make those theories and jumps. We better damn well own that 100% personally manufactured hype and not complain when a long shot theory or "reference" doesn't amount to anything.

I'd also say that the thing with characters like Isaac, Geno, and Banjo is that they're characters people want a revival for, and I honestly wonder whether Nintendo or Sakurai are aware of what their inclusions would (and in the case of B-K, do) mean. Either the character will make a glorious return started by Smash, or they will have one last, big hurrah via Smash. As a Banjo fan, him and Kazooie getting in means the world to me. I'm so, so happy that they're finally home, and as much as I ADORE K. Rool, they're gonna usurp his spot as my main. They mean so much to me, and they haven't been around in years.

Isaac is the same way for a lot of people, even having a dead franchise and everything (even moreso than B-K, because at least they still get merch and acknowledgment). Geno is a character that hasn't been used in even longer, over 20 freaking years (not counting the SSS cameo). Some people have been waiting decades for him, much as I've waited exactly two decades to see B-K get in Smash. I've been a Geno fan for a shorter amount of time, and it's already been incredibly rough. I can't imagine how terrible his very, very long-time fans feel to get shafted so often.

When it comes to a character like, say, Waluigi or Shadow, their lack of inclusion is sad, but at least we can look forward to their future appearances in other games. The aforementioned three don't have that (or at least Isaac and Geno don't, because B-K has Smash inclusion now, something to look forward to!). That's what makes those situations that much more painful. At least Isaac is first party, too (well, second party, but just about as easy to just use), but Geno? He's in SE's hands. That makes a revival so much harder outside of Smash. Smash is so make-or-break for Geno that it hurts.

When it comes to characters like these, we just want to see them come back. If they can't be in Smash, something else outside of it would be fine. We don't ask for much. We just... want to see them again. Thankfully, I'm not an Isaac fan (because god, that would be suffering), but as a Geno fan, it's rough when we're basically the ultimate afterthought. We get a few SMRPG nods and a PNG in terms of new material this game... and that's it. I honestly can't fathom how Nintendo thinks people will be ecstatic about that. Understanding that it's unfortunate compensation, fine, but according to Sabi, they were so blown away by how bad Isaac's AT was received. They think people will be happy with that, and, well... that's clearly not the case.
I don't think we should place an expectation on Smash to act as a revival tool. That feels like a teritiary objective at best and Sakurai has just chosen characters because he or the fans like them (we thankfully have both on our side at least). That's a big burden on the roster I think and starts pushing into the territories of arbitrarily labeling which characters have "greater reason" to be in Smash over others. Like, I'm sure Sakurai realizes the importance to the fans of bringing any character into Smash and these characters contribute to the game, but you can really argue that of any character. There's no reason to value that "won't appear again" status over other considerations for inclusion in Smash, and in fact we've seen that hurt more characters than help them. I'd say it's very hard to assign much value to that label unless there's a serious fan movement also behind that character. That's the best we can do for these characters is create fan involvement and rally behind them, but some are just always going to have incredibly uphill battles for inclusion as a playable fighter.

There's generally a reason why we haven't seen these characters make more appearances since going more dormant. Banjo Kazooie got the most screwed arguably with his franchise just sort of being left to die because the people behind their games made a completely different game and called it Banjo Kazooie, and then abandoned him because they didn't want to work on old IPs. Geno's next, but he's more a victim of circumstance than malice. Square Enix and Nintendo broke up pretty much right after Super Mario RPG released, and as a sort of joint character who belonged to Square Enix he just didn't have a place in any games. If it makes you feel any better though, he's really only had a chance of coming back in the past decade, so we can at least not attribute it as much to any sort of active disinterest.

Isaac and Golden Sun had their chance and they blew it honestly. Nintendo made a big deal about making a new game when they revealed Dark Dawn in 2009, and then when it released, it sold absolutely dreadfully. For as much as fans would like to make a big deal of the series, they didn't turn out to actually support it when the sequel was released, and while it was a step down in quality from the original games, it was their chance to prove something to Nintendo. 2010 would have been a perfect time to consider Golden Sun for Smash seeing as how the project plan for 4 focused on 2009-2012, Dark Dawn's abysmal sales just meant that they absolutely missed their best chance for GS in Smash. Those sales might also speak to the fan base being smaller than the Smash bubble assumes.

I don't think Nintendo expects us as fans to be ecstatic about things like a Geno spirit, but I do think they expect a little bit of appreciation for remembering to include a character or make references to games that they clearly aren't investing in for the future. I mean, how many series have been resigned to a lesser fate than either Geno or Golden Sun? Advance Wars lost their assist trophy, as did Sin and Punishment. Rhythm Heaven has never managed to get anything beyond Stickers, Trophies, and Spirits. Hell, Golden Sun has as much music as Final Fantasy in Ultimate. It may not be entirely what the most hardcore fan bases want for these characters, but it's something that does require work and as a producer/developer, you have so many people to please and you're never going to be able to please all of them, so you make compromises to give them something.
 
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wynn728

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
1,380
I'd also say that the thing with characters like Isaac, Geno, and Banjo is that they're characters people want a revival for, and I honestly wonder whether Nintendo or Sakurai are aware of what their inclusions would (and in the case of B-K, do) mean. Either the character will make a glorious return started by Smash, or they will have one last, big hurrah via Smash. As a Banjo fan, him and Kazooie getting in means the world to me. I'm so, so happy that they're finally home, and as much as I ADORE K. Rool, they're gonna usurp his spot as my main. They mean so much to me, and they haven't been around in years.

Isaac is the same way for a lot of people, even having a dead franchise and everything (even moreso than B-K, because at least they still get merch and acknowledgment). Geno is a character that hasn't been used in even longer, over 20 freaking years (not counting the SSS cameo). Some people have been waiting decades for him, much as I've waited exactly two decades to see B-K get in Smash. I've been a Geno fan for a shorter amount of time, and it's already been incredibly rough. I can't imagine how terrible his very, very long-time fans feel to get shafted so often.

When it comes to a character like, say, Waluigi or Shadow, their lack of inclusion is sad, but at least we can look forward to their future appearances in other games. The aforementioned three don't have that (or at least Isaac and Geno don't, because B-K has Smash inclusion now, something to look forward to!). That's what makes those situations that much more painful. At least Isaac is first party, too (well, second party, but just about as easy to just use), but Geno? He's in SE's hands. That makes a revival so much harder outside of Smash. Smash is so make-or-break for Geno that it hurts.

When it comes to characters like these, we just want to see them come back. If they can't be in Smash, something else outside of it would be fine. We don't ask for much. We just... want to see them again. Thankfully, I'm not an Isaac fan (because god, that would be suffering), but as a Geno fan, it's rough when we're basically the ultimate afterthought. We get a few SMRPG nods and a PNG in terms of new material this game... and that's it. I honestly can't fathom how Nintendo thinks people will be ecstatic about that. Understanding that it's unfortunate compensation, fine, but according to Sabi, they were so blown away by how bad Isaac's AT was received. They think people will be happy with that, and, well... that's clearly not the case.
Yeah, that's what Smash Bros is, a celebration for characters. We given up hope for certain characters ever making a return so Smash Bros is honestly their only option. I'm not a Banjo fan (I never played the games) but Banjo reveal meant so much for everyone that grew up with him and that trailer shows. It could mean a new leaf turn for these characters like how Fire Emblem was treated or they could end up like Captain Falcon and the F-Zero series, but at the very least they're getting some sort of celebration. This is the reason why characters from "dead" characters should be in Smash Bros, it's the only way these fans will ever get a chance to play as them. I wish Sakurai and Nintendo actually realized that, but it seems like they don't fully get that part. Also it warms my heart to hear that Nintendo got a lot of angry calls because of those Assist Trophies. They need to learn, if they couldn't see the repercussion of their action then they deserve what came after. If we don't get people to speak out about these Assist Trophies then we'll never get these fan favorite to become playable since Nintendo and Sakurai believe that everyone is happy with their characters being an Assist.
 

EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,197
Yeah, that's what Smash Bros is, a celebration for characters. We given up hope for certain characters ever making a return so Smash Bros is honestly their only option. I'm not a Banjo fan (I never played the games) but Banjo reveal meant so much for everyone that grew up with him and that trailer shows. It could mean a new leaf turn for these characters like how Fire Emblem was treated or they could end up like Captain Falcon and the F-Zero series, but at the very least they're getting some sort of celebration. This is the reason why characters from "dead" characters should be in Smash Bros, it's the only way these fans will ever get a chance to play as them. I wish Sakurai and Nintendo actually realized that, but it seems like they don't fully get that part. Also it warms my heart to hear that Nintendo got a lot of angry calls because of those Assist Trophies. They need to learn, if they couldn't see the repercussion of their action then they deserve what came after. If we don't get people to speak out about these Assist Trophies then we'll never get these fan favorite to become playable since Nintendo and Sakurai believe that everyone is happy with their characters being an Assist.
We shouldn't be promoting angry calls to Nintendo over Smash characters. The people responding to them aren't paid enough to hear us complain about a ****ing video game character not getting in, they're there for customer service and properly dealing with real issues. Not to mention, I severely doubt a few angry phone calls made it to Sakurai or anywhere near anybody that matters for the conversation of who gets into Smash, and more than likely just furthered the negative perception the Smash fan base already has. And if you're pissed off enough to believe that calling Nintendo directly will have an effect or just to vent frustrations, you're probably not being the most rational or pleasant person to listen to anyway.

Like, make all the fan art you can, make petitions and get signatures for characters, discuss them on forums and make videos about them, etc. Those are helpful ways to support a character and voice your opinion. Hell, even leaving comments on Twitter and liking/disliking videos on Youtube are more effective ways to voice an opinion. And they do offer proper channels for feedback sometimes like the ballot or otherwise. But for christ's sake, calling Nintendo on presumably the help lines to get pissy because Isaac wasn't revealed in Smash as a playable character sounds childish and furthers negative perceptions of the community. There's healthy and unhealthy ways to do the things we do.
 

Ovaltine

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
3,905
We shouldn't be promoting angry calls to Nintendo over Smash characters. The people responding to them aren't paid enough to hear us complain about a ****ing video game character not getting in, they're there for customer service and properly dealing with real issues. Not to mention, I severely doubt a few angry phone calls made it to Sakurai or anywhere near anybody that matters for the conversation of who gets into Smash, and more than likely just furthered the negative perception the Smash fan base already has. And if you're pissed off enough to believe that calling Nintendo directly will have an effect or just to vent frustrations, you're probably not being the most rational or pleasant person to listen to anyway.

Like, make all the fan art you can, make petitions and get signatures for characters, discuss them on forums and make videos about them, etc. Those are helpful ways to support a character and voice your opinion. Hell, even leaving comments on Twitter and liking/disliking videos on Youtube are more effective ways to voice an opinion. And they do offer proper channels for feedback sometimes like the ballot or otherwise. But for christ's sake, calling Nintendo on presumably the help lines to get pissy because Isaac wasn't revealed in Smash as a playable character sounds childish and furthers negative perceptions of the community. There's healthy and unhealthy ways to do the things we do.
Yeah, uh, gotta second this big time. I'm bitter and frustrated myself, but angry phone calls aren't the way to do it. We've gotta be louder in a supportive way, not in a destructive way. That does no one any favors.

I know I definitely plan on making as much fan art as I can. If I can manage to get something bigger going on, even better!
 

wynn728

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Messages
1,380
You've been through this several times and people have disagreed with you for a lot of reasons. If you genuinely want to see what fans think of an Assist Trophy, go into the Isaac thread and ask them. Without his assist trophy, Golden Sun gets only Spirits, which is an objectively worse reality than the one we have now for most people, myself included.

I also call bull**** on the malicious intent of Sakurai. There's a ton of content to show off between reveal and release, and every single Direct had the job of deconfirming some characters through Assist Trophy reveals. If he had shown off Shadow early on, then he might have just been swapped with Waluigi who didn't show up til the end and caused a different outcry. At best he could have shown off all the Assist Trophies at the very beginning... but that offers him no tangible benefit and wouldn't solve a damn thing since some fans will just continue to complain, so I don't blame him for showing off what is objectively a pretty substantial feature of the game (I know you downright hate them, but they are a substantial part of the game like it or not).

And to address all of the supposed "Hints." The Smash fan base is rabid and sometimes downright paranoid when it comes to everything in existence acting as a hint or the basis for a theory. Of all the things Sakurai should be spending his time on, checking to make sure his every single piece of information and little screen shot or trailer inclusion isn't inspiring another dumb as hell chairs moment ain't one of them. Fans have got to take repsonsibility for their own hype in situations including stuff like a generic Green witch and a bunch of sword characters fighting Rathalos. That's not on Sakurai and it shouldn't be to begin with, we're the people who make those theories and jumps. We better damn well own that 100% personally manufactured hype and not complain when a long shot theory or "reference" doesn't amount to anything.
Yay, I'm 100% positive that when Isaac was revealed as an Assist Trophy that entire board were extremely outraged and upset. They was no way any of them were happy about his Assist Trophy role immediately after the reveal. They may be happy with it now, but that's only after all the abuse they got and taking what little they can get. They're only happy because to them they have no other choice but to be happy. They know Isaac is dead and Golden Sun ain't coming back, so they're taking what little affection they can get. They may be happy now, but that won't change the fact that their heart were severely broken because of it.

Also I never said Sakurai had malicious intent. What I'm saying was he removes himself far away from the fan base that he doesn't realize that he could've lead people on in the wrong direction. He might've legitimately thought that he would excite so many people with the Shadow Assist Trophy reveal by having people think that his Assist was cut for Knuckles, but he didn't realized that people would've thought that Shadow was going to be playable because of that and the third party echo fighters being a thing. He removes himself too much that he doesn't realize that these little actions set people up for disappointment. Also Shadow is the easiest Assist Trophy to create, all he does is stand still and use a mechanic that is already it's own item as the stopwatch.

As for the "hints" that is still on Sakurai. He would've know that people ask for all these characters, so he should make sure that he doesn't lead people on when these character don't have a chance of getting in. For example, he knows people always ask for Banjo and everyone knows that Banjo fights a green witch, if Banjo wasn't in the game then that was stupid of them to show a green witch in the Stage Builder trailer. Anyone with a braincell knew that people were going to try and make a connection the first time they saw it, and just because of that is why they shouldn't have done it. We keep trying to say Sakurai is never at fault for anything, but it's because of that is why we keep getting lead on to this crap.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
Yay, I'm 100% positive that when Isaac was revealed as an Assist Trophy that entire board were extremely outraged and upset. They was no way any of them were happy about his Assist Trophy role immediately after the reveal. They may be happy with it now, but that's only after all the abuse they got and taking what little they can get. They're only happy because to them they have no other choice but to be happy. They know Isaac is dead and Golden Sun ain't coming back, so they're taking what little affection they can get. They may be happy now, but that won't change the fact that their heart were severely broken because of it.

Also I never said Sakurai had malicious intent. What I'm saying was he removes himself far away from the fan base that he doesn't realize that he could've lead people on in the wrong direction. He might've legitimately thought that he would excite so many people with the Shadow Assist Trophy reveal by having people think that his Assist was cut for Knuckles, but he didn't realized that people would've thought that Shadow was going to be playable because of that and the third party echo fighters being a thing. He removes himself too much that he doesn't realize that these little actions set people up for disappointment. Also Shadow is the easiest Assist Trophy to create, all he does is stand still and use a mechanic that is already it's own item as the stopwatch.

As for the "hints" that is still on Sakurai. He would've know that people ask for all these characters, so he should make sure that he doesn't lead people on when these character don't have a chance of getting in. For example, he knows people always ask for Banjo and everyone knows that Banjo fights a green witch, if Banjo wasn't in the game then that was stupid of them to show a green witch in the Stage Builder trailer. Anyone with a braincell knew that people were going to try and make a connection the first time they saw it, and just because of that is why they shouldn't have done it. We keep trying to say Sakurai is never at fault for anything, but it's because of that is why we keep getting lead on to this crap.
As a hardcore Isaac fan, I think I can say that people didn't and don't hate the AT itself. It's wonderful to see your character in Smash, in any capacity, and it's even better to get a model, running around and doing their shtick.

What people don't like is that ATs act like disconfirmations. Since we've never had an AT (or a Boss, or a Mii Costume, or a background character) upgraded through DLC, people see ATs as a 'you're not getting in until next game' so in that respect, yeah, people would rather not get an AT if they can get in later as DLC.

But that can all be easily solved by promoting just a single AT through DLC. Set the precedent, and people won't see ATs as hope killers but rather as the best thing you can get in base game that isn't a fighter. It's no different than being a Spirit for the crowd that thinks Spirits disconfirm.

Cutting ATs, though, isn't a solution. If you're going to use the Isaac fanbase as an example, ask us how we felt during Smash 4. That's way worse than being an AT, let me tell you.
 

link2702

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2008
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This is really random I know, but if somehow geno gets in, I hope someone edits the text of the old gardener from rose town when he absolutely loses his mind in excitement over the beanstalk, and replaces it with him being excited for geno in smash, and it scrolls by just as quickly.

Cuz honestly that is probably how most of us would react.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Yay, I'm 100% positive that when Isaac was revealed as an Assist Trophy that entire board were extremely outraged and upset. They was no way any of them were happy about his Assist Trophy role immediately after the reveal. They may be happy with it now, but that's only after all the abuse they got and taking what little they can get. They're only happy because to them they have no other choice but to be happy. They know Isaac is dead and Golden Sun ain't coming back, so they're taking what little affection they can get. They may be happy now, but that won't change the fact that their heart were severely broken because of it.
I can legitimately say I was not remotely angry at all. The closest thing to being ever taken by surprise was Wii Fit Trainer. I was somewhat disappointed in Shulk over Isaac myself.

Eh, we don't know Golden Sun is "dead" either. That seems just pessimistic for the sake of it. Yeah, the franchise is dead right now, but that doesn't mean it will be forever. It has a very dedicated fanbase full of people who love the series and are pretty cool. The disappointment being very loud was more towards mistaking something for a hint, combined with the Grinch Leak. It wasn't just the AT alone, there was some buildup. If the Grinch Leak didn't exist, it'd be nowhere near as bad. Especially when some characters from it are still playable(Banjo & Kazooie), who many believed was a dead franchise(which the franchise is still active, just not in a way people think counts), it hurts a lot.

The thing is, I'm a fan but a realistic person. I get that some things just don't happen. There might be many reasons why. Relevancy could easily just be the case as is for GS, unfortunately so. It getting a new game first would vastly improve the chances of Isaac, or another main character, get a playable appearance. Who knows.
 

EricTheGamerman

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Also, just to further add to the whole, "Don't Call Nintendo" thing, as someone who has worked the phones in the name of Customer Service and assistance, you likely have a number of other things to deal with and your time actually ends up being pretty precious in terms of what you're seriously accomplishing during certain shifts. Like, we use to get calls from tech vendors all the time trying to sell us stuff or asking to speak to so and so, and while the instinct is to just hang up or be a sarcastic asshole back, you still have to present yourself according to the standards offered by your employer. Something I'm sure that Nintendo takes very seriously based upon how protective they are of their image.

I couldn't imagine how bad it would have been having angry fans complain about a non-issue (at least it's a non-issue in terms of customer support "issues") while I'm trying to properly do my job. And I know for a fact that they'll be making fun of you or complaining about your call later because that's just how you handle that on a mental level. A ticketing system has categories for all sorts of requests, and your call probably gets recorded and dropped into the low priority one and eventually just deleted anyway.
 

wynn728

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We shouldn't be promoting angry calls to Nintendo over Smash characters. The people responding to them aren't paid enough to hear us complain about a ****ing video game character not getting in, they're there for customer service and properly dealing with real issues. Not to mention, I severely doubt a few angry phone calls made it to Sakurai or anywhere near anybody that matters for the conversation of who gets into Smash, and more than likely just furthered the negative perception the Smash fan base already has. And if you're pissed off enough to believe that calling Nintendo directly will have an effect or just to vent frustrations, you're probably not being the most rational or pleasant person to listen to anyway.

Like, make all the fan art you can, make petitions and get signatures for characters, discuss them on forums and make videos about them, etc. Those are helpful ways to support a character and voice your opinion. Hell, even leaving comments on Twitter and liking/disliking videos on Youtube are more effective ways to voice an opinion. And they do offer proper channels for feedback sometimes like the ballot or otherwise. But for christ's sake, calling Nintendo on presumably the help lines to get pissy because Isaac wasn't revealed in Smash as a playable character sounds childish and furthers negative perceptions of the community. There's healthy and unhealthy ways to do the things we do.
And because of that is why we're always going to have characters get passed over. Making fan art, disliking a video, signing a petition or even writing a Twitter comment ain't going to change anything. Like it or not you need negativity to make actual changes, all this positivity ain't doing it. We were negative about Mario Maker 2 not having online with friends and they change that. We were negative about lootboxes in Battlefront 2 and now they're on the verge of being banned from games. There are times to be negative in order to make a significant change and because of Isaac's fans negative call would send to the message to higher ups that Assist Trophies aren't the way to go. It would be a problem to be overly negative, but as long as it's done in a civil way and not like how certain Waluigi fans acted at E3 then it's all good and should be done. Anger is necessary to makes changes because if don't express it how it is and just keep sugarcoating it then we'll get more likes like Piranha Plant in Smash Bros while all your favorite character gets to sit in the side and never be playable.

I can legitimately say I was not remotely angry at all. The closest thing to being ever taken by surprise was Wii Fit Trainer. I was somewhat disappointed in Shulk over Isaac myself.

Eh, we don't know Golden Sun is "dead" either. That seems just pessimistic for the sake of it. Yeah, the franchise is dead right now, but that doesn't mean it will be forever. It has a very dedicated fanbase full of people who love the series and are pretty cool. The disappointment being very loud was more towards mistaking something for a hint, combined with the Grinch Leak. It wasn't just the AT alone, there was some buildup. If the Grinch Leak didn't exist, it'd be nowhere near as bad. Especially when some characters from it are still playable(Banjo & Kazooie), who many believed was a dead franchise(which the franchise is still active, just not in a way people think counts), it hurts a lot.

The thing is, I'm a fan but a realistic person. I get that some things just don't happen. There might be many reasons why. Relevancy could easily just be the case as is for GS, unfortunately so. It getting a new game first would vastly improve the chances of Isaac, or another main character, get a playable appearance. Who knows.
It still would've been just as bad without the Grinch Leak. No one is ever going to be like "Yay, my character is never going to be playable but now I have a 1 in 59 chance of summoning my favorite character for 15 seconds. BEST NEWS EVER!!!" when they reveal Assist Trophy characters. Nobody was happy when Bomberman was shown off. No one was happy with Ashley being revealed. The only group that is happy are Shovel Knight fans because there was no way that character was ever going to be playable.
 

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I was one of the biggest Grinch leak supporters. I was all in and my most liked post on this website wound up being a minor meme on 4chan so needless to say I was pretty upset at Isaac being an assist trophy. I had spent the entire period in between the Grinch leak and final Smash Direct playing Golden Sun and listening to the music on repeat, so when they played the Golden Sun battle theme just to show off his assist trophy it ruined the whole rest of the direct for me. Then to get a flowerpot Goomba over Geno felt like a personal attack.

Now I would never call Nintendo because I know your average call center peon isn't going to have a direct line to Sora Ltd but I hope Nintendo in general and Sakurai in particular saw the reaction the Grinch leak got and takes it into consideration, if not for DLC then for future Smash games down the line. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who was happier with the base roster we got than the one the Grinch leak hoaxed us into believing.

The only group that is happy are Shovel Knight fans because there was no way that character was ever going to be playable.
I 100% agree but I was pretty happy when Prince Sable was revealed as an AT for Smash 4. At the time there was a joke among my friends that I had some sort of secret ritual to get characters into Smash and I used to ****post about wanting Prince Sable. Helped the joke go on longer
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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It still would've been just as bad without the Grinch Leak. No one is ever going to be like "Yay, my character is never going to be playable but now I have a 1 in 59 chance of summoning my favorite character for 15 seconds. BEST NEWS EVER!!!" when they reveal Assist Trophy characters. Nobody was happy when Bomberman was shown off. No one was happy with Ashley being revealed. The only group that is happy are Shovel Knight fans because there was no way that character was ever going to be playable.
Not even close. The Grinch Leak gave extremely false hope to quite a degree. It was done by what is pretty clearly a troll meant to cause grief to others. Which it pretty clearly did. The final roster got a huge amount of backlash because it wasn't the Grinch Leak. No way it would've been close to the same, as nothing believable came out like that. People hated the Box Theory because it clashed with the fake leak alone. Of course, some were disappointed with only having 2 characters left as is.

Also, please multi-quote or reply to multiple posts at once instead of double posting. :)
 

wynn728

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Double Post
Yeah, uh, gotta second this big time. I'm bitter and frustrated myself, but angry phone calls aren't the way to do it. We've gotta be louder in a supportive way, not in a destructive way. That does no one any favors.

I know I definitely plan on making as much fan art as I can. If I can manage to get something bigger going on, even better!
Sorry but you're fan art isn't going to make any real changes. No company in the world responded due to positive reinforcement. Companies are reactionary, they respond quicker to disappointment and negativity. Companies want to please their fans and the best way to do that is by solving a problem whether it's a problem they created. If you don't express your frustration they're never going to know you actually what Geno to come back, instead they'll just think you're contempt with how things are going since you're staying positive. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, so make calls, send letter, and try to be as vocal as you can so they get the bloody message.

Not even close. The Grinch Leak gave extremely false hope to quite a degree. It was done by what is pretty clearly a troll meant to cause grief to others. Which it pretty clearly did. The final roster got a huge amount of backlash because it wasn't the Grinch Leak. No way it would've been close to the same, as nothing believable came out like that. People hated the Box Theory because it clashed with the fake leak alone. Of course, some were disappointed with only having 2 characters left as is.

Also, please multi-quote or reply to multiple posts at once instead of double posting. :)
Look, I'll agree that the Grinch Leak did get a lot of people's hopes up, but the final roster was still going to be disappointing regardless of the leak. They started Ultimate out by saying Ridley, Simon, K. Rool, Chrom, Isabelle and Daisy are in, those characters that people have been wanting are in the game. Dreams were coming true, so how did they end the final Direct? By having an obligation that barely anyone asked for being the final character, the rest of the fan favorite are not being consider for DLC, Rex and ARMS are screwed out of Smash Bros, and you get Piranha Plant as a DLC fighter. Fake leak or not that was severely disappointing and was going to get backlash no matter what. They made a bad call and people refuse to accept that, it's always the fans fault for being disappointed not Sakurai. When I say Incineroar I said "Dang it. Well at least there's DLC. Isaac will get his chance there." and then it snowballed to nothing but heartbreak.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Look, I'll agree that the Grinch Leak did get a lot of people's hopes up, but the final roster was still going to be disappointing regardless of the leak. They started Ultimate out by saying Ridley, Simon, K. Rool, Chrom, Isabelle and Daisy are in, those characters that people have been wanting are in the game. Dreams were coming true, so how did they end the final Direct? By having an obligation that barely anyone asked for being the final character, the rest of the fan favorite are not being consider for DLC, Rex and ARMS are screwed out of Smash Bros, and you get Piranha Plant as a DLC fighter. Fake leak or not that was severely disappointing and was going to get backlash no matter what. They made a bad call and people refuse to accept that, it's always the fans fault for being disappointed not Sakurai. When I say Incineroar I said "Dang it. Well at least there's DLC. Isaac will get his chance there." and then it snowballed to nothing but heartbreak.
Yeah, honestly, I thought the final roster was fine even then. But the backlash would've been nowhere near as bad without those leaks.

Most people aren't nearly as pessimistic as you're implying them to be. There was still a ton of hype as is for the final roster alone. Joker got some pretty damn good responses too.

Remember, your views are anecdotal evidence. Many loved Ken and Incineroar too. Many also have realized that the final rosters tend to have the last reveal be somewhat disappointing for base/not exact mega hype, so it's the normal not everybody is outright happy. Just to clarify, the base character revealed before release matters too(as the base character of Smash 3DS wasn't nearly as good as the final reveal during Smash Wii U, which technically was Mewtwo, a massive hype thing). It varies among tons of people. There's been a huge amount of praise even then for having such a great starting roster alone. Some like it. Some don't. The hatred that happened is being blown just a tad bit out of proportions here.
 

EricTheGamerman

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It still would've been just as bad without the Grinch Leak. No one is ever going to be like "Yay, my character is never going to be playable but now I have a 1 in 59 chance of summoning my favorite character for 15 seconds. BEST NEWS EVER!!!" when they reveal Assist Trophy characters. Nobody was happy when Bomberman was shown off. No one was happy with Ashley being revealed. The only group that is happy are Shovel Knight fans because there was no way that character was ever going to be playable.
Ashley's fan base literally appeared over night during this hype cycle and gained way too much momentum way too quickly for their own good.

Sorry but you're fan art isn't going to make any real changes. No company in the world responded due to positive reinforcement. Companies are reactionary, they respond quicker to disappointment and negativity. Companies want to please their fans and the best way to do that is by solving a problem whether it's a problem they created. If you don't express your frustration they're never going to know you actually what Geno to come back, instead they'll just think you're contempt with how things are going since you're staying positive. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, so make calls, send letter, and try to be as vocal as you can so they get the bloody message.


Look, I'll agree that the Grinch Leak did get a lot of people's hopes up, but the final roster was still going to be disappointing regardless of the leak. They started Ultimate out by saying Ridley, Simon, K. Rool, Chrom, Isabelle and Daisy are in, those characters that people have been wanting are in the game. Dreams were coming true, so how did they end the final Direct? By having an obligation that barely anyone asked for being the final character, the rest of the fan favorite are not being consider for DLC, Rex and ARMS are screwed out of Smash Bros, and you get Piranha Plant as a DLC fighter. Fake leak or not that was severely disappointing and was going to get backlash no matter what. They made a bad call and people refuse to accept that, it's always the fans fault for being disappointed not Sakurai. When I say Incineroar I said "Dang it. Well at least there's DLC. Isaac will get his chance there." and then it snowballed to nothing but heartbreak.
Ovaltine Ovaltine is one of the most down to earth and respectable members of this thread and her drawings are too good for me to let you just say they're pointless like that. Companies do respond to positive reinforcement if they care about fans which all returning veterans and :ultbanjokazooie::ultinkling::ultkrool::ultridley::ultsimon::ultchrom::ultdarksamus: clearly show that they do care about fan perception to some very real degree. And those are just the ones popular in our conventional polls, which means more may have come from fan demand. There is an interest to realizing some fan demand, and that's how these characters got in to Smash in the first place. Through positivity and support, not through vocal anger. People supported them in the right and appropriate way and it paid off. And the harsh truth of our world is that it can't and won't pay off for everyone. That's not a company deliberately deciding to say "Screw you Isaac, Geno, etc. fans." It's just a limit of resources and labor for certain projects.

See, companies are a hell of a lot smarter than you're giving them credit for. They hire very smart people to do all kinds of sale projections and work PR on a constant basis. They realize that they will intrinsically weather some degree of negative PR and are always prepared for that. Sure, some Smash fans got mad at the roster of Ultimate. Most didn't and they sold 14 million copies of the game, so clearly they made the right choices in the long run. No amount of fan ******** is going to change that success and just fits within their models of expected disappointment. It isn't going to have tangible effects on their bottom line. They've become the good guys to most of those people anyway. And guess what? With that perception on their side, they can very quickly turn any negativity back around an angry and irresponsible fan base. If a fan base gets particularly vitriolic and pushes too far (See: Waluigi), they can easily turn public perception against the fan base making all the trouble. Look at how many people get annoyed with specific fandoms for just the actions of one or two people, Nintendo doesn't have to do much of anything and extremist methods of character support that breed negativity will be dealt with by the community.

Trust me, the Geno community has enough going against it at the best of times, how much of a push do you think it would take to turn people against us more seriously? The negative route is not a winning scenario for any character support thread. Disappointment is fine, and voicing that disappointment in the appropriate channels is fine. But positivity will get you much, much further in this community and towards actually getting characters in as proven by so many examples already than a forced negativity route. And part of positivity is presence in the form of fan art. That sort of things increases awareness, breeds positivity that attracts new people to the character support, and maybe touches somebody in a way they didn't realize before with the character.

Also, hot take, ARMS hasn't done anything to deserve a place in Smash yet. It's one game that happened to sale decently when the Switch had very little else to play. It wasn't the new Splatoon, not even close, and it needs to have a better sequel that does more to improve the game before we even start talking playable character in Smash.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Just want to say that some of these posts are getting a bit huge again. Please spoiler mark them. :)

Also, I'm not sure this is a problematic debate, but do try to remember that not everybody takes negativity well, and it's not actually that useful as criticism alone. Being overly positive is bad too. Complaining to Nintendo in itself won't do anything here. Why? Cause the employees need to deal with issues that fall under what they're allowed to work with. They're the last person to talk to. Even Sakurai went out of his way to make a clear statement that the FP was fully chosen, to avoid constantly people replying to get their character in. He is a person who is willing to listen to some degree, but he also can only take so many requests before he even goes a bit nuts. He's just a man. Let me say this as someone who sometimes can get tagged/alerts over and over and over. It's definitely frustrating and grinds at my sanity at times. Sometimes it's best to let an argument die out and not worry about being right or wrong. Though generally, if a person says they aren't interested in the debate... let it go. Respect their wishes and not worry about it. You are not required to "call out" things. It's not that big of a deal. Am I perfect at this? No. I'm a hypocrite at times. I admit that. I'm just a human being, who is flawed. If that means I'm a bad role model at times, then I apologize for not being the best you're expecting. That's fair.

But it's not like anyone is infallible anyway. Also, to be clear, I feel the conversation is going nowhere on my end so I'm dropping out too. That said, please try to keep it civil as it has been. :) (Anything in bold is a mod note, to be clear).
 

xpnc

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Also, hot take, ARMS hasn't done anything to deserve a place in Smash yet. It's one game that happened to sale decently when the Switch had very little else to play. It wasn't the new Splatoon, not even close, and it needs to have a better sequel that does more to improve the game before we even start talking playable character in Smash.
It's really strange how fleshed out the Spring Man assist trophy is though. He's got what appears to be a jab, aerials, directional air-dodging and a final smash. Wonder why they'd even bother
 

KCCHIEFS27

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For those saying Isaac’s AT didn’t make anybody angry

Isaac’s AT made me angry, so don’t speak for everyone.
 

GalacticPetey

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If you're upset about a character not getting in, taking out on the poor customer service employees who have nothing to do with the game is just the wrong way to go. Customer service is grueling as is and the last thing they need or want is a whiny fanboy ranting in their ear about a character they've never heard of.
 

EricTheGamerman

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It's really strange how fleshed out the Spring Man assist trophy is though. He's got what appears to be a jab, aerials, directional air-dodging and a final smash. Wonder why they'd even bother
They did that with a lot of the new Assist Trophies. It's a way to make them more fleshed out and representative of the characters that they're supposed to be representing in the first place. You can do all of that stuff because they don't then have to be balanced against an entire roster of characters which takes tons and tons of time and also you can only focus on the main, most important moves without having to make a whole moveset. It may seem like a lot, and to some degree it is, but it's nothing compared to even Echoes I imagine.
 

wynn728

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Yeah, honestly, I thought the final roster was fine even then. But the backlash would've been nowhere near as bad without those leaks.

Most people aren't nearly as pessimistic as you're implying them to be. There was still a ton of hype as is for the final roster alone. Joker got some pretty damn good responses too.

Remember, your views are anecdotal evidence. Many loved Ken and Incineroar too. Many also have realized that the final rosters tend to have the last reveal be somewhat disappointing for base/not exact mega hype, so it's the normal not everybody is outright happy. Just to clarify, the base character revealed before release matters too(as the base character of Smash 3DS wasn't nearly as good as the final reveal during Smash Wii U, which technically was Mewtwo, a massive hype thing). It varies among tons of people. There's been a huge amount of praise even then for having such a great starting roster alone. Some like it. Some don't. The hatred that happened is being blown just a tad bit out of proportions here.
Of bloody course Joker got great responses. After seeing all these fan favorite characters getting killed and Piranha Plant being in Smash Bros everyone thought that our DLC was only going to be characters for advertisement like a Fire Emblem Three Houses character & Gen 8 Pokemon. And if it wasn't going to be for advertisement then it was going to be Nintendo characters people don't care about like generic enemies. That's what people were thinking for a whole month and then the Game Award Show happen with Joker, out of nowhere, coming to Smash Bros. A characters from an amazing game with great style that people thought wasn't going to happen was our first DLC fighter, no crap the response was great. And because of Joker many agree that the DLC is going to just be third party characters because the Nintendo side of things is pretty much dead with all the fan favorites being Assist and Costumes.

Also some people my like Incineroar, but when he was first leak for Sun & Moon many didn't like the design, and it's only saving grace was not being a Fighting type. Most people were asking for Decidueye instead. Also I bloody hate how many people are just compliant with having a wet fart of a final reveal. It's not acceptable to have such a weak way to end this, everyone acts like Sakurai deserve a gold star for everything and can do nothing wrong. Stop justifying a terrible ending, the ending bloody matter. We honestly should have better and anyone else would want to end it all with a banger. Just because you all accept that a final announcement can be disappointing doesn't make you better fans, in fact all that does is keep the creator from learning and keep making the same mistakes over and over again. The only people that weren't disappointed by the November Direct were the ones who hated the Grinch Leak and were so happy that those people were not only proven wrong but a good portion of those characters will NEVER be playable in Smash Bros Ultimate.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Again, I am not in this conversation anymore. To be fair, it's hard to see that as a later post. I should've tagged, sorry.
 

EricTheGamerman

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Anyways, man, Hero needs to drop already so we can at least get out of this temporary limbo.
 

yakko789

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Hey peeps, I had a booth at an artist alley this past weekend at a video game convention here in Salt Lake City. I had a small print of Geno on display (the one of my current avatar) just to see if people knew who he was, and there was a lot of positive feedback. A lot of people recognized him and told me how they wished for a SMRPG remake or for Geno to be in Smash. It was reassuring. There are a lot of Geno supporters out there that aren't a part of this thread. I just thought it was cool and wanted to share that with you guys.
 

Ze Diglett

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Hey peeps, I had a booth at an artist alley this past weekend at a video game convention here in Salt Lake City. I had a small print of Geno on display (the one of my current avatar) just to see if people knew who he was, and there was a lot of positive feedback. A lot of people recognized him and told me how they wished for a SMRPG remake or for Geno to be in Smash. It was reassuring. There are a lot of Geno supporters out there that aren't a part of this thread. I just thought it was cool and wanted to share that with you guys.
Stuff like this is why I genuinely believe that the silent majority stands with Geno. People like Geno and SMRPG, and it's safe to say that the haters are just a vocal minority at this point. If we just keep attracting goodwill to our cause, we will win.
 

Michael the Spikester

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I've been honestly thinking about the possibility like how we got a bonus character in the beginning in the form of:ultpiranha:that I had wondered if after all five DLC characters in the season pass are revealed if Sakurai also announces an final bonus character.

Geno definitely seems like that kind of character that'd fit into that given his demand over the years and how Sakurai actually even wanted him in Brawl. I think its a possibility. Probably more likely then a second season pass.
 

wynn728

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Ashley's fan base literally appeared over night during this hype cycle and gained way too much momentum way too quickly for their own good.



Ovaltine Ovaltine is one of the most down to earth and respectable members of this thread and her drawings are too good for me to let you just say they're pointless like that. Companies do respond to positive reinforcement if they care about fans which all returning veterans and :ultbanjokazooie::ultinkling::ultkrool::ultridley::ultsimon::ultchrom::ultdarksamus: clearly show that they do care about fan perception to some very real degree. And those are just the ones popular in our conventional polls, which means more may have come from fan demand. There is an interest to realizing some fan demand, and that's how these characters got in to Smash in the first place. Through positivity and support, not through vocal anger. People supported them in the right and appropriate way and it paid off. And the harsh truth of our world is that it can't and won't pay off for everyone. That's not a company deliberately deciding to say "Screw you Isaac, Geno, etc. fans." It's just a limit of resources and labor for certain projects.

See, companies are a hell of a lot smarter than you're giving them credit for. They hire very smart people to do all kinds of sale projections and work PR on a constant basis. They realize that they will intrinsically weather some degree of negative PR and are always prepared for that. Sure, some Smash fans got mad at the roster of Ultimate. Most didn't and they sold 14 million copies of the game, so clearly they made the right choices in the long run. No amount of fan ******** is going to change that success and just fits within their models of expected disappointment. It isn't going to have tangible effects on their bottom line. They've become the good guys to most of those people anyway. And guess what? With that perception on their side, they can very quickly turn any negativity back around an angry and irresponsible fan base. If a fan base gets particularly vitriolic and pushes too far (See: Waluigi), they can easily turn public perception against the fan base making all the trouble. Look at how many people get annoyed with specific fandoms for just the actions of one or two people, Nintendo doesn't have to do much of anything and extremist methods of character support that breed negativity will be dealt with by the community.

Trust me, the Geno community has enough going against it at the best of times, how much of a push do you think it would take to turn people against us more seriously? The negative route is not a winning scenario for any character support thread. Disappointment is fine, and voicing that disappointment in the appropriate channels is fine. But positivity will get you much, much further in this community and towards actually getting characters in as proven by so many examples already than a forced negativity route. And part of positivity is presence in the form of fan art. That sort of things increases awareness, breeds positivity that attracts new people to the character support, and maybe touches somebody in a way they didn't realize before with the character.

Also, hot take, ARMS hasn't done anything to deserve a place in Smash yet. It's one game that happened to sale decently when the Switch had very little else to play. It wasn't the new Splatoon, not even close, and it needs to have a better sequel that does more to improve the game before we even start talking playable character in Smash.
Oh bull. Positive reinforcement had nothing to do with Inklings getting in. It was the best selling Wii U game, you have to be an idiot not to include them. Ridley got in because people wouldn't shut up about him and express they disappoint with him being a stage boss in Smash 4. People said that that stage was the worst because of the Ridley boss and it's one of the few that didn't make it back in Ultimate. As for Chrom after the way they treated him in Smash 4 only made sense to bring him back in good gesture. As for Banjo people didn't give up, just like Sakurai said people kept asking for him even after Ridley and King K. Rool were revealed. Positivity may help certain characters, but negativity is also required and will soon be needed for Geno. He got passed over for Brawl, got passed over for Smash 4 DLC with that Mii Costume, got turn into a Spirit for Ultimate, and in a few weeks we'll get that stupid Mii Costume again. That getting screwed over four times, and it's because we kept being positive is why this keeps happening. I will agree that there's limit resource so not everyone can make it, but let's not forget that one of our newcomer is Piranha Plant. They sat down and agreed that Geno will not make it into Smash Bros Ultimate, but Piranha Plant deserve to be on the roster. They may not intend to say "Screw you Isaac, Geno, etc. fans." but that's the message they are giving. If you have such a limited amount of resource then best not to screw around and try to make the most of it instead of wasting it on a character so Sakurai can flex his mind on making moveset.

We've been positive, we've been supportive, we express our desire for Geno to get in and four times they screwed him over while say "We know you want him, we want him too." Enough is enough. Once that Mii Costume get revealed that is the time to be negative. Write to Nintendo on saying how bad that costume is. Express our disappointment on what they keep doing over and over again. If we don't be negative and just keep being positive then Sakurai is going to see that the Geno fans are contempt with these treatment and they don't have to bother ever putting him into Smash Bros because no one will see it as a problem.

As a hardcore Isaac fan, I think I can say that people didn't and don't hate the AT itself. It's wonderful to see your character in Smash, in any capacity, and it's even better to get a model, running around and doing their shtick.

What people don't like is that ATs act like disconfirmations. Since we've never had an AT (or a Boss, or a Mii Costume, or a background character) upgraded through DLC, people see ATs as a 'you're not getting in until next game' so in that respect, yeah, people would rather not get an AT if they can get in later as DLC.

But that can all be easily solved by promoting just a single AT through DLC. Set the precedent, and people won't see ATs as hope killers but rather as the best thing you can get in base game that isn't a fighter. It's no different than being a Spirit for the crowd that thinks Spirits disconfirm.

Cutting ATs, though, isn't a solution. If you're going to use the Isaac fanbase as an example, ask us how we felt during Smash 4. That's way worse than being an AT, let me tell you.
I was an Isaac supporter during Smash Bros 4 and I was happy he didn't show up as an Assist Trophy, because I thought he was going to show up as DLC. And by the time Smash 4 was over with DLC we knew about the NX and how the next Smash Bros game was going to happen and that's when Isaac will have a chance. If you were disappointed remember you got to write in for Isaac during the ballot, that gave you hope that he might show up and even if he didn't there was more hope for him in the next game. And now that hope is officially crushed into the ground never to sprout again until 7 to 9 years later when the next Smash Bros game happens on the new Nintendo console.
 
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SSGuy

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Oh bull. Positive reinforcement had nothing to do with Inklings getting in. It was the best selling Wii U game, you have to be an idiot not to include them. Ridley got in because people wouldn't shut up about him and express they disappoint with him being a stage boss in Smash 4. People said that that stage was the worst because of the Ridley boss and it's one of the few that didn't make it back in Ultimate. As for Chrom after the way they treated him in Smash 4 only made sense to bring him back in good gesture. As for Banjo people didn't give up, just like Sakurai said people kept asking for him even after Ridley and King K. Rool were revealed. Positivity may help certain characters, but negativity is also required and will soon be needed for Geno. He got passed over for Brawl, got passed over for Smash 4 DLC with that Mii Costume, got turn into a Spirit for Ultimate, and in a few weeks we'll get that stupid Mii Costume again. That getting screwed over four times, and it's because we kept being positive is why this keeps happening. I will agree that there's limit resource so not everyone can make it, but let's not forget that one of our newcomer is Piranha Plant. They sat down and agreed that Geno will not make it into Smash Bros Ultimate, but Piranha Plant deserve to be on the roster. They may not intend to say "Screw you Isaac, Geno, etc. fans." but that's the message they are giving. If you have such a limited amount of resource then best not to screw around and try to make the most of it instead of wasting it on a character so Sakurai can flex his mind on making moveset.

We've been positive, we've been supportive, we express our desire for Geno to get in and four times they screwed him over while say "We know you want him, we want him too." Enough is enough. Once that Mii Costume get revealed that is the time to be negative. Write to Nintendo on saying how bad that costume is. Express our disappointment on what they keep doing over and over again. If we don't be negative and just keep being positive then Sakurai is going to see that the Geno fans are contempt with these treatment and they don't have to bother ever putting him into Smash Bros because no one will see it as a problem.


I was an Isaac supporter during Smash Bros 4 and I was happy he didn't show up as an Assist Trophy, because I thought he was going to show up as DLC. And by the time Smash 4 was over with DLC we knew about the NX and how the next Smash Bros game was going to happen and that's when Isaac will have a chance. If you were disappointed remember you got to write in for Isaac during the ballot, that gave you hope that he might show up and even if he didn't there was more hope for him in the next game. And now that hope is officially crushed into the ground never to sprout again until 7 to 9 years later when the next Smash Bros game happens on the new Nintendo console.
There is literally a way to do this without making ourselves look like Waluigi, Ashley or Sora fans which is being spoiled baby about not getting our character in quite yet.

No need to have Geno look like those filthy fanbases.

I'm all for promoting our guy to Nintendo/SE but we need to come off more like we are rooting and showing pride for our guy instead of kicking and screaming for him.
 
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Ovaltine

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There is literally a way to do this without making ourselves look like Waluigi, Ashley or Sora fans which is being spoiled baby about not getting our character in quite yet.

No need to have Geno look like those filthy fanbases.

I'm all for promoting our guy to Nintendo/SE but we need to come off more like we are rooting and showing pride for our guy instead of kicking and screaming for him.
Exactly. Throwing a tantrum isn't going to do us any good. Frustration is understandable. Trust me, I've vented about it multiple times here, including recently. It's rough to be a Geno fan right now. With that being said, however, attacking Nintendo/Square and going out of our way to be vile/negative won't do good for our cause. If anything, it'll do the exact opposite. Look at how much poor feedback Waluigi's fans got after he was confirmed as an AT, thus sparking people sending death threats to Sakurai and co. Do we really want to go that route? Really?
 
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wynn728

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There is literally a way to do this without making ourselves look like Waluigi, Ashley or Sora fans which is being spoiled baby about not getting our character in quite yet.

No need to have Geno look like those filthy fanbases.

I'm all for promoting our guy to Nintendo/SE but we need to come off more like we are rooting and showing pride for our guy instead of kicking and screaming for him.
We can still do that while being negative. Just because I say to go negative doesn't mean that I'm saying we should yell at customer service or sending insult. All we do is send a letter or calling them to just say that we're extremely disappointed and upset about what happen to Geno and hope they can send those messages to Sakurai. If they get enough negative feedback they will listen a lot better then all the fanart or positive support that we've been doing for years.
 

EarlTamm

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There is literally a way to do this without making ourselves look like Waluigi, Ashley or Sora fans which is being spoiled baby about not getting our character in quite yet.

No need to have Geno look like those filthy fanbases.

I'm all for promoting our guy to Nintendo/SE but we need to come off more like we are rooting and showing pride for our guy instead of kicking and screaming for him.
I would just like to say, those people are a minority in each of those fanbases. All it takes is a few people to spoil it all for everyone else. By no means should the actions of those people be excused, but don't put them all under the same label.
 

xpnc

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Exactly. Throwing a tantrum isn't going to do us any good. Frustration is understandable. Trust me, I've vented about it multiple times here, including recently. It's rough to be a Geno fan right now. With that being said, however, attacking Nintendo/Square and going out of our way to be vile/negative won't do good for our cause. If anything, it'll do the exact opposite. Look at how much poor feedback Waluigi's fans got after he was confirmed as an AT, thus sparking people sending death threats to Sakurai and co. Do we really want to go that route? Really?
There's a difference between writing mean tweets to Sakurai and starting a letter campaign to express out unhappiness with Geno being anything but a playable character. You can be negative respectfully.
 
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Ovaltine

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I would just like to say, those people are a minority in each of those fanbases. All it takes is a few people to spoil it all for everyone else. By no means should the actions of those people be excused, but don't put them all under the same label.
Yeah, the Geno fan base receives this plenty when we know that not all of us are sour grapes, so we really don't need to do that.

I honestly feel bad for the aforementioned Waluigi fan base. A lot of them are actually chill memelords, yet the ones sending death threats have permanently stained the fandom. They're always going to have an unfair stigma now.

There's a difference between writing mean tweets to Sakurai and starting a letter campaign to express out unhappiness with Geno being anything but a playable character. You can be negative respectfully.
I understand that, but I was under the impression that this was about sending angry phone calls like what happened with Isaac + death threats like what happened with Waluigi. Those are not the ways we should react. That's what I mean.
 
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TheCJBrine

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I only recall 2 Waluigi fans sending stupid stuff to Sakurai, though I don't find it hard to believe there are people in the Waluigi fanbase- well, every characters' fanbase that would send more stupid stuff like death threats to Sakurai. I don't really get why Waluigi receives most of the blame, but whatever.
 
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EarlTamm

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I only recall 2 Waluigi fans sending stupid stuff to Sakurai, though I don't find it hard to believe there are people in the Waluigi fanbase- well, every characters' fanbase that would send more stupid stuff like death threats to Sakurai. I don't really get why Waluigi receives most of the blame, but whatever.
I don't even recall what the Ashley fan base did. Back when she was disconfirmed, I recall her thread making a very clear point to not do stuff like that. Kinda like what this thread does from time to time.
 

TheHeartbreakKid

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I'd support the idea of sending a respectful, sincere letter expressing why we want Geno in so bad, but it shouldn't come off as "we're extremely upset with your product and decisions".

It should come off as "we're thankful for what you've already given, and hearing that Banjo made it in due to fan requests, we want to state our case"
 

EricTheGamerman

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The issue with Smash is that there has already been so much fan service and commitment to fans that basically every character fan base already straddles the line of perceived entitlement at this point. Most of the big name obvious Nintendo all-stars are already in, so there doesn't feel like there are natural and notable absentees at this point. Most of speculation is mostly just made up of people wanting specific characters, and while that's perfectly fine and great for speculation in a lot of ways, it also means there are no clear frontrunners for the position and its a bit harder to make the case of why these characters should be in Smash. You have to do more work to convince people than you had to for say, Ridley or King K. Rool. And because of that difficulty in establishing your case and also with how we already straddle the "line of entitlement," it just takes the slightest push for any fan base to become vilified. Especially with someone like Waluigi who arguably is the most meme'd non playable character surrounding Ultimate. He was adopted by a lot of people just for the meme, much like Steve was adopted by a great deal of people determined to rain on the Banjo Kazooie parade. It makes them both easy targets for overall negative perception from the fan base.

Oh bull. Positive reinforcement had nothing to do with Inklings getting in. It was the best selling Wii U game, you have to be an idiot not to include them. Ridley got in because people wouldn't shut up about him and express they disappoint with him being a stage boss in Smash 4. People said that that stage was the worst because of the Ridley boss and it's one of the few that didn't make it back in Ultimate. As for Chrom after the way they treated him in Smash 4 only made sense to bring him back in good gesture. As for Banjo people didn't give up, just like Sakurai said people kept asking for him even after Ridley and King K. Rool were revealed. Positivity may help certain characters, but negativity is also required and will soon be needed for Geno. He got passed over for Brawl, got passed over for Smash 4 DLC with that Mii Costume, got turn into a Spirit for Ultimate, and in a few weeks we'll get that stupid Mii Costume again. That getting screwed over four times, and it's because we kept being positive is why this keeps happening. I will agree that there's limit resource so not everyone can make it, but let's not forget that one of our newcomer is Piranha Plant. They sat down and agreed that Geno will not make it into Smash Bros Ultimate, but Piranha Plant deserve to be on the roster. They may not intend to say "Screw you Isaac, Geno, etc. fans." but that's the message they are giving. If you have such a limited amount of resource then best not to screw around and try to make the most of it instead of wasting it on a character so Sakurai can flex his mind on making moveset.

We've been positive, we've been supportive, we express our desire for Geno to get in and four times they screwed him over while say "We know you want him, we want him too." Enough is enough. Once that Mii Costume get revealed that is the time to be negative. Write to Nintendo on saying how bad that costume is. Express our disappointment on what they keep doing over and over again. If we don't be negative and just keep being positive then Sakurai is going to see that the Geno fans are contempt with these treatment and they don't have to bother ever putting him into Smash Bros because no one will see it as a problem.


I was an Isaac supporter during Smash Bros 4 and I was happy he didn't show up as an Assist Trophy, because I thought he was going to show up as DLC. And by the time Smash 4 was over with DLC we knew about the NX and how the next Smash Bros game was going to happen and that's when Isaac will have a chance. If you were disappointed remember you got to write in for Isaac during the ballot, that gave you hope that he might show up and even if he didn't there was more hope for him in the next game. And now that hope is officially crushed into the ground never to sprout again until 7 to 9 years later when the next Smash Bros game happens on the new Nintendo console.
Requested characters and obvious picks can be one and the same, you don't get to downplay the legitimate demand for Inkling just because you feel they're invalidated by being a natural choice. There's also zero sources to corroborate that Geno was willfully passed over in all of those instances and not stopped by other potential issues/he was even in consideration for something like Smash 4 DLC when Final Fantasy was clearly going to be the first pick. You're also making a hell of a lot of assumptions regarding the future of Smash DLC like the Mii costume coming back and Isaac being absolutely dead (I think he's got a shot if we get more DLC than the Fighter's Pass too). And again, there's a bunch of reasons to include characters beyond fan requests, but I know you won't relent on that, so I'll drop it (What a horrible crime for a game director to want to express some creativity and not just be a slave to the desires of the fan base even though his apparent bad decision making resulted in a game selling 14 million copies). And remember, not everything is made to please you or even just the main fanbase that cares enough to participate in something like the Smash Ballot.

Look, I'm not telling you to quit supporting Geno. I'm telling you to be responsible about the way you do it and not to be a negative asshole about the way you voice disappointment that will be counterproductive to your actual goals of supporting Geno. You can see where a great deal of the thread stands on this, and most of us are not keen to have people making a bad name for us. So, please consider that in whatever action you decide to take. This is my final response to you on this stuff. I'm not going to argue further.
 
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TheCJBrine

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He was adopted by a lot of people just for the meme, much like Steve was adopted by a great deal of people determined to rain on the Banjo Kazooie parade. It makes them both easy targets for overall negative perception from the fan base.
It really sucks when most Steve fans either don't care about B-K either way or like them as well, with the ones bashing them being immature and probably young. I'm sure the Waluigi fanbase is mostly nice, too.

It's not like there weren't any B-K fans being rude to even polite Steve fans, or that other characters' fanbases don't deal with the same problems. I understand people getting mad at trolls (I can't help but reply sometimes, too), but that's all they are: trolls, and they're not good representation of these fanbases.
 
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