Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

Ovaltine

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I honestly doubt Geno will make it this time, but I can be sated with one thing:

Actually make the Mii costume able to look like freaking Geno.

Make the hat a large helmet or something, or just do something with the modeling of it so it looks like him. You can pretty easily recreate some characters like Lip, Isaac, Takamaru, and Skull Kid with their costumes, but the Mii head and face does not work for Geno. The skin tones don't match up. There's not much you can do with the face to have it resemble him, and the closest facsimiles look godawful. If they were to just do that, I'd be perfectly sated, because it'll at least feel more like I'm playing as Geno and not as a knock-off.

If the Mii costume comes back, I'll be fine if it's that, but if it isn't, that's going to leave a really bitter taste in my mouth.
 
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Just came back to pop in and see how everyone is treating the e3 DLC characters Hero and BK.

My 2 cents is still that Geno is in, for the same reasons as months ago. But it's also telling how after this e3 announcement the conversation has become, "Who is left to add to Smash Bros?" Geno is now by far the oldest-most-desired character that is not in the game. He's the last ultra-hype character.

If he's a costume then that's a total deconfirmation for this game. Costumes have served that role in the past and there's no real reason to expect differently. But I can't imagine he'd be in the fighter's pass along with Hero or BK. The Joker pass's costumes, stage, music, and spirits were all related to that IP. It's billed as Smash Bros X Persona, Smash Bros X BK, and Smash Bros X Dragon Quest, not Smash Bros X Dragon Quest And Rando Characters From Other IPs.

The one and only one thing Geno has against him is that he and Mallow are spirits and each have an adventure mode battle modeled after them. But that's still kind of a big deal, because fighter passes add stages, spirits/spirit battles, music, and costumes along with the fighter. Geno already has a couple spirits and accompanying battles, so there's less content to add. You're not just selling Geno, you're also selling Mallow/Smithy/Croco/Booster costumes, a few other spirits, some lit music, and a stage (my guess is still the Bowyer boss battle in the forest with the lock-buttons gimmick). That said, iadding him last makes the most sense, if only for the logistic reason that they'll be getting less requests--if you add Geno not as the last DLC character, everyone is going to think their currently deconfirmed spirit is on the table for subsequent DLC and flood Nintendo with requests again.

As a last nugget, here's some out-there speculation. After Geno, the rest of his fighter pass content is more or less a stretch. You could add Paper Mario content by lumping in the Paper Mario games with SMRPG as the forefather, but it's insanely unlikely, they're different IPs owned by different companies. BUT, if they bought the license for Geno and Mallow and created brand-new PAPER GENO, making him a Paper Mario IP character, that opens up the floodgates for all the Paper Mario characters for costumes, music, spirits, and stages! You've got massive hype-building and promotion infusing the announcement of a new Paper Mario game. New game, brand-new Paper Geno and Paper Mallow included!
Mewtwo and Lucas were trophies in Smash 4 before they were brought back as DLC, so a character being a spirit might not mean they're deconfirmed. Also, isn't it kind of suspicious that Geno and Mallow are the only other Square-Enix spirits in the game besides Cloud who is also a playable character? I think it's suspicious.
 

Ovaltine

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Mewtwo and Lucas were trophies in Smash 4 before they were brought back as DLC, so a character being a spirit might not mean they're deconfirmed. Also, isn't it kind of suspicious that Geno and Mallow are the only other Square-Enix spirits in the game besides Cloud who is also a playable character? I think it's suspicious.
I don't think it's suspicious. I think it's more that this was as much as they could do with the rights in terms of base game, if not in general along with the Mii costume. It's silly to shell out so much money and licensing for just a couple of PNGs and a ported asset from a prior game, yeah, but they probably think that having to repurchase something you already bought before + some lazily slapped together PNGs is fine enough consolation. It's Nintendo. There's no limit to how stupid their ideas of 'satisfying the fans' can potentially be. Plus, there's Square, and we don't even begin to talk about how deep Square's idiocy runs.
 
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If I could pick the Geno stage he would be announced with, and if I were to turn my SMRPG fanboy faucet to full blast, this is what I would go with:

The Stage would be the rooftop of Bowser's Keep with Exor in the background, and the spires could be replaced with the chandeliers for the Battlefield version of the stage.

HOWEVER

As time progressed through the fight, the Seven Star pieces would descend from the clouds as they did in the intro to Super Mario RPG. Then as they fell an scattered, one at random would fall in the fighters' direction and would bathe the battlefield in that star's color transforming the stage as if it was undergoing a stage morph. As the light fades out, the stage's backdrop will have changed to the location where the Star Piece fell in the game. So:

-Blue : Mushroom Kingdom throneroom besieged by Mack and his minions. The Chancellor and his toads would be cowering in the corners.
-Green : The Forest Maze, right on top of the stump where you fight Bowyer. Flunkies would line up on either side, and Bowyer himself could fire arrows either into the distance towards Rose Town or towards the fighters.
-Orange : Moleville mines, with Punchinello desperately trying to detonate his Bob-ombs in the background. Dyna and Mite could ride through on the cart tracks on occasion, and Croco could peek his head out of a corner to check for an opportunity to loot the fighters.
-Purple : Star Hill, covered in fallen wishes and lunar hills. Perhaps visions of the wishmakers could appear over some of the stars, Frogfusious, Mallow's Parents, etc.
-Light Blue: Sunken pirate ship, with Johnny and his crew cheering from the sidelines. King Calamari can be seen writhing in the background.
-Red : Vs. Axem Rangers on the Blade above the Barrel Volcano. As like on the Halberd, occasionally the Breaker Beam will charge and fire across the deck.
-Yellow: Smithy Factory forge vs. Smithy. Conveyer belts and machinery constantly churn out weapons as Smithy angrily hammers away.

Once a certain amount of time has passed, the light covers the battlefield again and it reverts back to the default Bowser's Keep. The cycle repeats with a different star piece after a while.

It seems like a lot to do for one stage, but if there was any a time for Super Mario RPG to get some recognition and love from a developer who knows what he's doing, I say pack in as much as you can.
If we actually got all of that in one stage it would definitely be the best stage ever lol
 
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I don't think it's suspicious. I think it's more that this was as much as they could do with the rights in terms of base game, if not in general along with the Mii costume. It's silly to shell out so much money and licensing for just a couple of PNGs and a ported asset from a prior game, yeah, but they probably think that having to repurchase something you already bought before + some lazily slapped together PNGs is fine enough consolation. It's Nintendo. There's no limit to how stupid their ideas of 'satisfying the fans' can potentially be. Plus, there's Square, and we don't even begin to talk about how deep Square's idiocy runs.
But one of the things I don't get there is why isn't there any more Final Fantasy spirits besides Cloud and why Square-Enix is okay with Geno and Mallow representing their spirits section over characters from their most iconic franchise which already has a fighter in the game?
 

Ovaltine

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But one of the things I don't get there is why isn't there any more Final Fantasy spirits besides Cloud and why Square-Enix is okay with Geno and Mallow representing their spirits section over characters from their most iconic franchise which already has a fighter in the game?
Cost issues and copyright issues are the big problem here, I think... or Square is just stingy with FF, yet not their other IPs. I can't even begin to be sure.
 

Ovaltine

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"LC"_Lapen

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According to the companion, rainbow theory and fan popularity. Two of these groups will be the remaining fighter pass.
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Actually, even though they never appeared together in a game, I could totally see them pairing Twink from Paper Mario with Geno for taunts or his victory screen.

u5870qrmrkh21.jpg


Both are Star Spirits, both originated from a Super Mario RPG, both had adventures dealing with the 7 Star Pieces (Spirits in Paper Mario), and both have responsibilities towards wishes. If they COULD work in Mallow without it looking shoehorned or awkward I'd go for him, but thematically if they wanted a small, cute mascot to pop in with Geno then this could be a good alternative.
 
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See, the reason why Sakurai presumably told Retro Studios to not use K. Rool in the Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze Switch port was because him having a new appearance would take away from the surprise and hype when he was included in Ultimate. He would still absolutely generate hype, but it wouldn't feel as much of a victory since he had a recent appearance under his belt, leading some to think he would be inevitable.

Sakurai is well aware of Geno's popularity, he even expressed his own interest in the character, so I think he would want to do the honors of bringing Geno back into the spotlight; an appearance in Mario Kart would deviate from that.

Now if Geno wasn't planned to be in Ultimate one way or another, then the Mario spin-off teams can do whatever they want with him, those are just my two cents on the matter.
 

Fatmanonice

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Number 4's probably going to be a rep from a big third party franchise and 5 will be a Smash fan favorite. Originally I was all but certain that Banjo was going to be #5 but, now that he's already in, it really limits my train of thought. I could see them going all out with a Mario RPG theme for #5 since Paper Mario has always been a popular choice and Mario RPG content has always kind of been lacking in Smash Bros anyways.
 

Ovaltine

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What really encourages me about this whole thing is how often I've seen Geno in close proximity to Banjo-Kazooie in a lot of these fan poll images online. Surely Sakurai has noticed this.
True, but that probably doesn't matter to Square in any which way. Square doesn't look at fan polls or fan wants 90% of the time. Phil and Sakurai were aware of Banjo, but only Sakurai seems to be aware of Geno.
 
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Number 4's probably going to be a rep from a big third party franchise and 5 will be a Smash fan favorite. Originally I was all but certain that Banjo was going to be #5 but, now that he's already in, it really limits my train of thought. I could see them going all out with a Mario RPG theme for #5 since Paper Mario has always been a popular choice and Mario RPG content has always kind of been lacking in Smash Bros anyways.
I always thought way before hand that E3 was the perfect place for them to reveal Banjo & Kazooie due to Nintendo and Microsoft's relationship lately and the fact they were there by themselves without Sony.
 

Fatmanonice

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According to the companion, rainbow theory and fan popularity. Two of these groups will be the remaining fighter pass.
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That's really uncanny that blue and purple are prominent colors for all these characters. The idea of Phoenix is growing on me. I liked how he played in MAHVUL but it kind of sucked how he was low tier and hardly anyone played him because of his learning curve. Thanks to the N-Sane Trilogy, Crash would probably have a Coco ALT which I think would make a lot of people happy. As for Geno and Mallow, I do really like the idea of them fighting together, especially the thought of them being revealed together in a trailer. A graphical update for both would be a dream come true. For example, Mallow being semi-opaque and changing color and texture as he performs certain moves would be amazing.
 

valkiriforce

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True, but that probably doesn't matter to Square in any which way. Square doesn't look at fan polls or fan wants 90% of the time. Phil and Sakurai were aware of Banjo, but only Sakurai seems to be aware of Geno.
I'm pretty sure Sakurai is the one calling the shots in Smash Bros, since he asked specifically for Cloud even though they offered him another character when they weren't sure at first if he really wanted Cloud in Smash. I wouldn't think it Square's responsibility who gets into a game they're not even working on.
 

GenoFlash

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Square has to be aware because of the costume.
Yeah but we're direly missing a Bowser's Castle stage and Exor embedded in the castle is one of the game's most iconic designs.

My stage designs for both would be:

- Exor Castle would have two prominent castle towers and a lower area in the middle, with Exor's hilt acting as another platform above.

- Forest Maze would be the tree stump where you fought Bowyer with two moving platforms on either side.

The Hazards for the stage would be the Smithy Gang appearing. Mack would bounce around the stage, Bowyer would shoot paralyzing arrows, Yaridovich would cast Water Blast, and the Axem Rangers would fire the Blade.
 

EricTheGamerman

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That last stage spot is going to be Forest Maze.
You do know that stage slot already has a function in game, right? Not that it's impossible to redo UI or change things up, but there's no missing slot since that spot gets used for toggling Custom Stages when determining rules for Random Stage Select, and then four remaining spots which will be taken up by the remaining Fighter's Pass stages. It'll look weird on stage select, but that is its purpose in game.


Anyway, on another topic, I still think there is a zero percent chance we will see Geno show up outside of Smash or Square Enix related projects. It only makes sense to include Geno when Square Enix is already at the table. It'd be great to see him return in some other capacity, but I find it extremely unlikely that Nintendo will deal with Square Enix on their previously only first party projects just to get Geno. The overwhelming majority of his popularity comes from Smash and he makes the most sense in that or something else Square Enix produced and Nintendo collaborated like a Super Mario RPG 2 or another Fortune Street even. I always got really frustrated with people who were like, "Geno should come back in other things before Smash" when, again, that's almost guaranteed to not happen. Geno's best shot, and perhaps only shot, has always been inclusion in Smash.

Which is why I really hope Square Enix sticks around for future Smash games. Because without them at the table, Geno just absolutely isn't happening. But hopefully we get him in Ultimate before Square Enix becomes a less important partner to Smash/decides to pull out of Smash/third parties get the boot in a reboot/whatever.
 

Ovaltine

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You do know that stage slot already has a function in game, right? Not that it's impossible to redo UI or change things up, but there's no missing slot since that spot gets used for toggling Custom Stages when determining rules for Random Stage Select, and then four remaining spots which will be taken up by the remaining Fighter's Pass stages. It'll look weird on stage select, but that is its purpose in game.


Anyway, on another topic, I still think there is a zero percent chance we will see Geno show up outside of Smash or Square Enix related projects. It only makes sense to include Geno when Square Enix is already at the table. It'd be great to see him return in some other capacity, but I find it extremely unlikely that Nintendo will deal with Square Enix on their previously only first party projects just to get Geno. The overwhelming majority of his popularity comes from Smash and he makes the most sense in that or something else Square Enix produced and Nintendo collaborated like a Super Mario RPG 2 or another Fortune Street even. I always got really frustrated with people who were like, "Geno should come back in other things before Smash" when, again, that's almost guaranteed to not happen. Geno's best shot, and perhaps only shot, has always been inclusion in Smash.

Which is why I really hope Square Enix sticks around for future Smash games. Because without them at the table, Geno just absolutely isn't happening. But hopefully we get him in Ultimate before Square Enix becomes a less important partner to Smash/decides to pull out of Smash/third parties get the boot in a reboot/whatever.
In terms of base game things, I would agree, but as a DLC character for other inclusions, I could still see it happening. Besides, Square does love money, and it means not having to interrupt their first party projects at the base with third parties. Guest inclusions aren't as farfetched as you might think.
 

Megadoomer

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What are the Rainbow and Companion theories?
Rainbow - the current DLC characters have certain background colours on the Smash Bros. website (Piranha Plant = green, Joker = red, Hero = purple, and it seems like Banjo-Kazooie will be yellow), so the remaining two DLC characters will complete the rainbow with blue and orange

Companion - I'm just guessing here, but so far, the characters in the fighters pass have some kind of companion that shows up in their taunts or moves (Joker has Morgana, the Hero has Slime, Banjo has Kazooie), so I assume people think that the remaining two fighters pass characters will follow that trend.

I'd say that both of those are pure coincidence, and trying to look for patterns like this is usually fruitless.
 

MattX20

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Geno's chances at this point are the most debatable aspect of the rest of the DLC speculation cycle. No matter how you look at it, Geno is quite literally the last of the major fan requests that dates back to the Brawl days.
 

YsDisciple

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Greetings fellow Geno supporters! Despite Geno being a Legendary rank spirit in SSBU, one can never lose hope of the possibility of them being potentially among the 2 remaining DLC slots (or even a surprise 6th slot at the end of the FP).

In regards to Geno's stage, I'd see it either being Forest Maze, Bowser's Castle (with Exor), or Star Hill. Though "LC"_Lapen "LC"_Lapen 's idea would be pretty awesome. I guess we'll have to wait and see what Mii costumes come along with Hero once he's released. Though, that won't confirm anything either since some fighters have Mii Costumes.
 
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I'm pretty sure Sakurai is the one calling the shots in Smash Bros, since he asked specifically for Cloud even though they offered him another character when they weren't sure at first if he really wanted Cloud in Smash. I wouldn't think it Square's responsibility who gets into a game they're not even working on.
If that's true, that lends credence to the idea that Geno won't make it in after all, since Sakurai clearly decided another Square character deserved the roster spot over him, and made the Mii costume just to console us.

Oh man. I just wish they'd announce the last two DLC characters and be done with it. You realize we're all going to be in an information drought for the rest of the summer, right? The next two or three months are going to suck. :(
 

EricTheGamerman

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In terms of base game things, I would agree, but as a DLC character for other inclusions, I could still see it happening. Besides, Square does love money, and it means not having to interrupt their first party projects at the base with third parties. Guest inclusions aren't as farfetched as you might think.
Well, there hasn't been a single third party guest inclusion in any of Nintendo's usual Mario spinoff titles that weren't developed by another developer outside of Nintendo. Mario Tennis, Mario Golf, Mario Party, Mario Baseball, Mario Strikers, and Mario Kart have not had a single third party guest in all of their releases across 20 years of consoles. Not to mention, roster isn't usually such a big deal with any of these outside of what characters are missing from the usual crowds of Mario extras that star in the game, so there's practically no incentive for Nintendo to go through a process like that and invest in a character whose fan base isn't even particularly focused on them and when people only minimally complain about those rosters (Mario Kart 8 got some flack for its roster of racers, but it barely even registered for most people in my experience and racers generally don't bring the variety that a Smash character does for example).

The exceptions to this rule have been: Mario and Sonic series (which explains itself and is developed by Sega), Mario Hoops 3 on 3 (Developed specifically by Square Enix and contained Ninja, White Mage, Black Mage, Cactuar, and Moogle), Mario Sports Mix (Developed by Square Enix again and contained the five previously listed gusts from Hoops and Slime), Fortune Street (Square Enix developed and a bunch of Dragon Quest characters), and then the Mario Kart Arcade releases (Which were specifically developed by Bandai Namco and had Pac-Man in them).

What we see when we put all of that together is that Nintendo has exclusively stuck to their first party IPs when developing their own Mario spinoff titles. The only times we get third party crossover is when another company is involved in the development of the games. Funnily enough, it's usually been Square Enix responsible for those titles, so there might be a better chance at them working on another Mario project in the future which would be ideal. But I am saying that Nintendo does not operate around third party crossovers in their own Mario spinoff titles. That can certainly change in the future, but they've pretty well stuck to that across all the major releases in recent memory. That's why stuff like campaigning for Geno in Mario Kart or Mario Golf doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me. There's the third party barrier that has to be broken first all around before we can talk about Geno having a chance in those games, and then specifically bringing Square Enix to the table as the next step. Even the recent DLC offerings for Mario Kart 8 and Mario Tennis Aces absolutely echo Nintendo first in those choices. I'm more than willing to acknowledge a possibility once any of these internally developed spinoffs get a third party, but for now, they just don't.
 

ShotoStar 2

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According to the companion, rainbow theory and fan popularity. Two of these groups will be the remaining fighter pass.
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I'd choose Geno/Mallow and Phoenix/Maya easily though I doubt the Companion theory is an actual thing, Color theory on the other hand with the more I look into it the more I find it to be likelier and likelier just look at how the DLC's backgrounds are just colors unlike the other characters on the Smash bros website. I find that interesting to say the least.

In the case that we can't get both Phoenix and Geno I'd still choose Geno, Sorry Phoenix I love your games but Geno means more to me.
 

Ovaltine

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Well, there hasn't been a single third party guest inclusion in any of Nintendo's usual Mario spinoff titles that weren't developed by another developer outside of Nintendo. Mario Tennis, Mario Golf, Mario Party, Mario Baseball, Mario Strikers, and Mario Kart have not had a single third party guest in all of their releases across 20 years of consoles. Not to mention, roster isn't usually such a big deal with any of these outside of what characters are missing from the usual crowds of Mario extras that star in the game, so there's practically no incentive for Nintendo to go through a process like that and invest in a character whose fan base isn't even particularly focused on them and when people only minimally complain about those rosters (Mario Kart 8 got some flack for its roster of racers, but it barely even registered for most people in my experience and racers generally don't bring the variety that a Smash character does for example).

The exceptions to this rule have been: Mario and Sonic series (which explains itself and is developed by Sega), Mario Hoops 3 on 3 (Developed specifically by Square Enix and contained Ninja, White Mage, Black Mage, Cactuar, and Moogle), Mario Sports Mix (Developed by Square Enix again and contained the five previously listed gusts from Hoops and Slime), Fortune Street (Square Enix developed and a bunch of Dragon Quest characters), and then the Mario Kart Arcade releases (Which were specifically developed by Bandai Namco and had Pac-Man in them).

What we see when we put all of that together is that Nintendo has exclusively stuck to their first party IPs when developing their own Mario spinoff titles. The only times we get third party crossover is when another company is involved in the development of the games. Funnily enough, it's usually been Square Enix responsible for those titles, so there might be a better chance at them working on another Mario project in the future which would be ideal. But I am saying that Nintendo does not operate around third party crossovers in their own Mario spinoff titles. That can certainly change in the future, but they've pretty well stuck to that across all the major releases in recent memory. That's why stuff like campaigning for Geno in Mario Kart or Mario Golf doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me. There's the third party barrier that has to be broken first all around before we can talk about Geno having a chance in those games, and then specifically bringing Square Enix to the table as the next step. Even the recent DLC offerings for Mario Kart 8 and Mario Tennis Aces absolutely echo Nintendo first in those choices. I'm more than willing to acknowledge a possibility once any of these internally developed spinoffs get a third party, but for now, they just don't.
Oof, honestly, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, they can always end up breaking the rules (I mean, look how many rules Nintendo's been breaking this year alone), but... yeah. Pretty brutal reality. I just wish they'd give him something. Unless Nintendo buys the rights to SMRPG entirely, that looks grimmer than I thought.

You know what else I thought of? The teases for Banjo and Kazooie are, in hindsight, pretty clear. The witch with the cauldron may be debatable since it's a common theme in different media, but it's a funny coincidence to look back on. It could have been meant as a sign, for all we know. Microsoft and Nintendo's relationship and Microsoft teasing Nintendo's conference for some kind of news is also obvious foreshadowing (again, in hindsight). The hints were hard to tell back then because of how ambiguous Banjo's and Kazooie's fates seemed to be.

Then we have the 'teases' for Geno, the tweet a few months after DLC had been planned, the huge fanfare for the costume in Sm4sh, the HQ quiz sponsored by Nintendo, SMRPG on the SNES Classic, the amount of showing off Nintendo's been doing with Geno's spirit, the SMRPG references that came with Piranha Plant... and they all seem that much more obvious than those for Banjo and Kazooie — yet we may just end up with the Mii costume and nothing else again.

Like, Nintendo, y'all are realizing what you're doing to my heart, right? Like, they can't not be aware of the message they're sending when these hints are even more in-your-face for us Geno fans than Banjo's were for us Banjo fans... right?

Ah, who am I kidding...
 
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I still think it’s a little far fetched, but anything that helps Geno works for me lol
Oh, I don't actually believe it.

I just found it to be a interesting observation and funny pattern. One of those 'Huh, funny how that lines up' kind of things. Now, if the next character has orange or blue background, then it might have some foundation.

Of course, it could reference the stars in Mario RPG....and the blue star is the first one you get.

In fact..........extreme observations!

Joker, Red. Joker is a thief. The red star is stolen from you.

Plant, Green. Plant is a plant. The green star is in a forest.
Hero, Purple. The purple star is given to you. Hero was a given for half a year.
Banjo, Yellow. The yellow star is held by Smithy, the main antagonist. Banjo is held by Microsoft, a major competitor. Banjo and star were seen out of reach for fans to get at first.

So orange is a character that is not connected to the others but will be a bombastic surprise.

Geno, Blue. Blue is an awesome color. Geno is an awesome character.

It all fits!

Checkmate.
 

Ovaltine

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Oh, I don't actually believe it.

I just found it to be a interesting observation and funny pattern. One of those 'Huh, funny how that lines up' kind of things. Now, if the next character has orange or blue background, then it might have some foundation.

Of course, it could reference the stars in Mario RPG....and the blue star is the first one you get.

In fact..........extreme observations!

Joker, Red. Joker is a thief. The red star is stolen from you.

Plant, Green. Plant is a plant. The green star is in a forest.
Hero, Purple. The purple star is given to you. Hero was a given for half a year.
Banjo, Yellow. The yellow star is held by Smithy, the main antagonist. Banjo is held by Microsoft, a major competitor. Banjo and star were seen out of reach for fans to get at first.

So orange is a character that is not connected to the others but will be a bombastic surprise.

Geno, Blue. Blue is an awesome color. Geno is an awesome character.

It all fits!

Checkmate.
I don't think I've even seen a pizza this stretchy before. :p
 
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