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I've been thinking. Sakurai said 'Fighter 6 is ready to present, we just gotta prepare some things first' making me think it's the CGI trailer and not the character (it only needs polish but will work for the presentation well enough). Mandy is saying it's Crash and his track record is perfect so far. He alone even knew about Byleth and that his reveal would not be at TGA.
Now... What if the original plan was to have ONE pass and end it with Crash, but then the sales made them decide to do a second one, shoehorn in a FE rep as promotion, and swap them with Crash for fighter 5 so they end poorly and start strongly? It would make sense cuz if they show Byleth as the first of Season 2, that's not enticing people with confidence to purchase the pass at all. To top it off, they added a sixth slot for Season 2 as compensation for the shoehorned FE rep so people won't feel scammed (cuz I'm sure an FE rep would sell poorly by itself given the reaction).
If Crash is next, and his background is orange (as color theory suggested before it was axed just now), I will say this may have been a correct assumption. I welcome feedback!
I've been thinking about the Megaman X/EXE mii costumes and wonder a few things:
A) What does this mean for Capcom? If we were going to get another Capcom rep, wouldn't they have saved these for that? I guess we still have the Monster hunter costume, but that makes me wonder whether Monster hunter will get promoted or not.
B) I assume that this means any future Mega Man characters are pretty much dead. Sad. I like that series.
A lot of Sakurai's team chose these, so we don't know how much Capcom said "no" to, really. The team may not have asked for that much non-Classic stuff too. Considering there's a very odd number of music/spirit per franchise, with nothing consistent among another, it's hard to say what starts with Sakurai's team and ends with Capcom Co. saying yes/no. Capcom USA easily said yes to a lot of it, but they were mostly SFII as well.
*thinks some more*...oohhh... They had no choice. Byleth HAD to be Fighter 5! If he's Fighter 6, Season 2 would have a weak start which is a marketing disaster, if he's Fighter 7 (around E3), it's not only kinda late to promote FE but the promotion would be buried under backlash and the other stuff they're gonna announce. And later slots are out of the question cuz the game has been out for too long to promote it and no one cares!
*thinks some more*...oohhh... They had no choice. Byleth HAD to be Fighter 5! If he's Fighter 6, Season 2 would have a weak start which is a marketing disaster, if he's Fighter 7 (around E3), it's not only kinda late to promote FE but the promotion would be buried under backlash and the other stuff they're gonna announce. And later slots are out of the question cuz the game has been out for too long to promote it and no one cares!
Well. Byleth was clearly chosen from the start, but the release order of things were likely decided based upon these kind of factors too. Joker was revealed a bit earlier than expected(as said by Sakurai), and that's also noticeable since he didn't have a full model to present till some time later even. On the other hand, his game was far more recent, so it actually fits time well. And he's an all new character that's super unexpected, and not based remotely upon his Nintendo appearances, further setting the stage for a unique hype one.
Hero perfectly fits into the timeline of promoting DQXI.
Banjo & Kazooie and Terry seem like it didn't matter much who was first or not, but B&K also were a good Western choice to offset the Eastern choice that is Hero. So the order could be based simply upon that. Byleth is what you needed, perfect timing.
Isabelle's reveal was clearly set up to promote New Horizons as well. In some cases, the order might be matter as much, but a double reveal might work well together similar to Hero/B&K. Ken and Incineroar compliment each other well, but being unique fighters that fit in the Ring as is. Incineroar moreso. It's also the one and only time so far a 3rd party and a 1st party are part of the same core reveal trailer. Capcom USA along with TPC must've been super cooperative. There were mixed opinions on whether that level of awesomeness had a chance to happen. Not all thought they'd do so, respectively. Sure, there's no denying not all found it hype either, but it's still a surprise of how it was done, compared to the characters many knew of thanks to Verge's leaks.
Fatmanonice
what are your thoughts on cacomallow at this point, forgive me if I'm treading on ground you've already covered? I think there's still a lot going for it, yet there's not a lot of room for a bethesda rep to slide it's way into the pass. I personally feel just mii costumes would be odd.
Given the timeframe, I think it's got a good shot at being real. For example, if Geno was a summer or early fall release, those Mii costumes existing already would make sense as it would be nearly half way through a hypothetical development cycle. Also, the elephant in the room is that we've reached 2 1/2 months and nobody has been able to replicate it. Most people have simply gotten burned out on trying and I think that's exactly what they were hoping would happen.
Yes, Marvel vs Capcom 4 has been around forever. When I was still in Sabi's Private Discord, there was a leaker who goes by (Eric) who said he specializes in movies and comics, especially Warner Bros and DC. He made public that he heard rumblings of not only Marvel vs Capcom 4 but Marvel vs DC back in the summer. This is why I pay any attention to it. The guy had things like rough drafts of entire movie scripts that he proved were authentic so, again, credit where credit is due.
Yes. Like I've said, Sora's not been heard in insider circles aside from a couple people saying he was flat out not happening back 2018. Since then, Shinji Hashimoto, the brand manager of all of Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts has said that Sora wasn't happening in Smash either. Based on all these things, I don't see Sora as one of the six and only see him happening if Sakurai changes his mind and adds more characters.
Bringing this back up, I'm curious if many of the FP2 characters were decided long in advance (like around when FP1 was discussed as well). There's nothing that says these fighters were picked after base launch or anything. Hell if we get an FP3, they might already know who they want to put in that one too. It would explain why so many names were "heard" and yet nothing has come of them, not even a Mii costume nor spirit. They could have a list of 20 or so characters, and are just deciding from that list for when they want Characters X Y Z, etc.
I'd like to think at some point, Geno (and the other names that are floating around) were actually discussed and are on said list. The thrown darts just didn't hit their names yet.
Those are my thoughts. Sakurai plans things goofy far in advance. Base roster for Smash Ultimate was decided three years out, for example. Greninja and Inceniroar were added to their respective debut games when they were nothing but concept art. I totally believe that Sakurai had characters already in mind for Season 2 back in 2018. Once again, Season 2 is being dragged out to almost 2022 and they already decided everyone by the beginning of 2020. I strongly believe that Sakurai decided most of Season 2 by Ultimate's launch because that's totally in his personality.
Sorry to ask, but i'm super curious on this. Do any of your contacts know about Geno's development? Or if he's coming? I believe he's coming given the proof, but have your contacts said anything?
Only one has specifically mentioned Geno and he thinks he's going to be 6. I don't believe that. Again, as Geno Jean Valjean, I love the character to death but I don't think he'd be a good 6 or a way to kick off Season 2. Geno's got a hell of a legacy in the Smash fanbase and starting things off with him would shoot expectations through the roof. Granted, I think all of Season 2 will be big fan favorites but I think they're going to plan things out accordingly.
So that just happened. I didn't even know about this scene. The first time we see the Geno doll, a little boy is playing with Nintendo toys and having them fight! Then Geno comes to life shortly after! That's Smash! I also feel so stupid because I wasn't thinking how perfect Geno fits with the theme of Smash. Why hasn't this happened yet exactly?
I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest this: Geno needs to have a Smash 64 homage trailer.
Ah, you have been enlightened fellow gamer. Tis the wonder of the character known as Geno (the doll of course).
Yesterday I got back to thinking on the current Fighters Pass and the order in which the characters were released and... the hype/reactions behind each, the pattern reminded me of the shape of a normal distribution curve (say what now?! ). Ok, hear me out (read actually).
The first DLC fighter (Joker) was the bombshell reveal at TGA 2018; however the expectations for this character joining Smash were not the highest from what I gather. Of course, who would when Persona games had mostly released on Playstation consoles, and Persona 5 wasn't even released for a Nintendo system (yet). This would appropriately place him around the first vertical line (from left to right) beneath the normal distribution curve.
Next we got Hero during the opening of the E3 2019 Nintendo Direct. Although his inclusion in Smash received split reactions (favorable in Japan, yet slightly tame in the West); Hero's a legacy character hailing from a series that could be considered as the father of JRPGs. Due to the split reactions, but higher expectations of seeing a Dragon Quest character join Smash, his placement would be around the second line (again from left to right) beneath the normal distribution curve.
Third we got the golden goose of the Fighters Pass; Banjo & Kazooie (GUH-HUH!). Banjo & Kazooie was a duo that was requested for many years to join Smash, and was even mentioned in some point that they almost made it into Super Smash Bros. for the N64, but never happened due to the eventual purchase of Rare by Microsoft (correct me if I'm wrong though in regards to this point). Being such a highly requested character, with mostly positive reactions, AND given their circumstances (having a direct competitor of Nintendo agreeing to lend the IP for use in Smash), this would place Banjo & Kazooie around the center line beneath the normal distribution curve (the peak of the curve).
Next up, we got Terry Bogard. Another legacy character, mostly within the FGC, but outside of it many saw him as a "who", unfortunately. Personally, I loved it when Terry got revealed. Getting another legit fighting game character rep; truly a blessing. Due to his reception however, and expectations for his inclusion in Smash (which could be said were somewhere around Hero's maybe), his placement would be around the fourth line beneath the normal distribution curve (which begins to descend).
Finally... we have Byleth. Byleth's inclusion got mixed reactions (unfortunately most of it being not too favorable), and it's unfortunate because out of all the Fire Emblem reps, Byleth has the most distinct moveset. Given its reception, and expectations of their inclusion in Smash (in a Fighters Pass that alluded to third party characters only), their placement would be around the fifth line beneath the normal distribution curve (the mirror to the first line, again placed around the lowest part of the normal distribution curve).
I'm not pretending to give a math/statistics lesson here but, the similarity between the DLC fighters release pattern, and the shape of a normal distribution curve made me think that for the upcoming Fighters Pass Vol. 2, it could serve as reference to more or less visualize around which points in time we could be getting the release/announcements of each fighter, and around when would the "hypest" reveals take place. However, given the number of fighters and release window this time around, there could be two possible scenarios.
It has been mentioned on this thread already that the reveals could be expected to take place around the following Directs:
Challenger Pack 6 = General Nintendo Direct Q1 2020
Challenger Pack 7 = E3 2020
Challenger Pack 8 = General Nintendo Direct Q3 or 4 2020
Challenger Pack 9 = General Nintendo Direct Q1 2021
Challenger Pack 10 = E3 2021
Challenger Pack 11 = General Nintendo Direct Q3 or Q4 2021
Given those potential reveal/announcement dates, the two possible reveal/release scenarios could follow either:
a) a basic normal distribution curve similar to the one compared with the first Fighters Pass, in which:
>> Challenger Packs 6 & 7 would be around the left side beneath the normal distribution curve (ascending); Challenger Packs 8 & 9 would be around the center (peak) of the normal distribution curve; and Challenger Packs 10 & 11 would be around the right side beneath the normal distribution curve (descending). This would then mean that the hypest reveals would be those of Challenger Packs 8 & 9 (being the ones expected around the end of 2020, and beginning of 2021).
b) a dual normal distribution curve consisting of two peaks, in which:
>> Challenger Packs 6 and 9 would be around the ascending sides beneath the normal distribution curve (respectively); Challenger Packs 7 and 10 would be around the peaks of the normal distribution curve; and Challenger Packs 8 and 11 would be around the descending sides beneath the normal distribution curve (respectively). This would mean that they "hypest" character reveals would be Challenger Packs 7 and 10, during their respective potential E3 directs.
I won't go into too much detail for now but, we could also associate the probabilities around the areas beneath the curve with the potential placement of the Challenger Packs, and speculate which characters said probabilities would pair up best (probability being associated with most expected/most likely character).
This is just a bit of morning theory crafting for future consideration.
I woke up this morning to over a hundred notifications, guess I'll get started...
Given the timeframe, I think it's got a good shot at being real. For example, if Geno was a summer or early fall release, those Mii costumes existing already would make sense as it would be nearly half way through a hypothetical development cycle. Also, the elephant in the room is that we've reached 2 1/2 months and nobody has been able to replicate it. Most people have simply gotten burned out on trying and I think that's exactly what they were hoping would happen.
Yes, Marvel vs Capcom 4 has been around forever. When I was still in Sabi's Private Discord, there was a leaker who goes by (Eric) who said he specializes in movies and comics, especially Warner Bros and DC. He made public that he heard rumblings of not only Marvel vs Capcom 4 but Marvel vs DC back in the summer. This is why I pay any attention to it. The guy had things like rough drafts of entire movie scripts that he proved were authentic so, again, credit where credit is due.
Yes. Like I've said, Sora's not been heard in insider circles aside from a couple people saying he was flat out not happening back 2018. Since then, Shinji Hashimoto, the brand manager of all of Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts has said that Sora wasn't happening in Smash either. Based on all these things, I don't see Sora as one of the six and only see him happening if Sakurai changes his mind and adds more characters.
Those are my thoughts. Sakurai plans things goofy far in advance. Base roster for Smash Ultimate was decided three years out, for example. Greninja and Inceniroar were added to their respective debut games when they were nothing but concept art. I totally believe that Sakurai had characters already in mind for Season 2 back in 2018. Once again, Season 2 is being dragged out to almost 2022 and they already decided everyone by the beginning of 2020. I strongly believe that Sakurai decided most of Season 2 by Ultimate's launch because that's totally in his personality.
Only one has specifically mentioned Geno and he thinks he's going to be 6. I don't believe that. Again, as Geno Jean Valjean, I love the character to death but I don't think he'd be a good 6 or a way to kick off Season 2. Geno's got a hell of a legacy in the Smash fanbase and starting things off with him would shoot expectations through the roof. Granted, I think all of Season 2 will be big fan favorites but I think they're going to plan things out accordingly.
I kinda feel Geno is 7 like Fatman said and he's gonna be the E3 bombshell like Banjo was. If I take Mandy's word then Crash is 6. If they started out with those two I'd be one hell of a happy camper.
Season 2 will be the last batch of dlc, if you consider the echoes and alternate skins for some characters (male/female, alph, koopalings etc) we’re around 90ish characters, and that was WITHOUT season 2’s.
Sakurai wants to have ultimate at 100 characters, it’s pretty clear now, and at least in his view, echoes and different skins count despite how they’re labeled on the website.
Season 2 will be the last batch of dlc, if you consider the echoes and alternate skins for some characters (male/female, alph, koopalings etc) we’re around 90ish characters, and that was WITHOUT season 2’s.
Sakurai wants to have ultimate at 100 characters, it’s pretty clear now, and at least in his view, echoes and different skins count despite how they’re labeled on the website.
I just counted and I think it puts it at 99 if we just count separate characters like the Koopa Kids, Alph, and the 4 different Heroes but not count both the male and female alts. So odds are one of the 6 DLC could have an alt as well.
I woke up this morning to over a hundred notifications, guess I'll get started...
Given the timeframe, I think it's got a good shot at being real. For example, if Geno was a summer or early fall release, those Mii costumes existing already would make sense as it would be nearly half way through a hypothetical development cycle. Also, the elephant in the room is that we've reached 2 1/2 months and nobody has been able to replicate it. Most people have simply gotten burned out on trying and I think that's exactly what they were hoping would happen.
Yes, Marvel vs Capcom 4 has been around forever. When I was still in Sabi's Private Discord, there was a leaker who goes by (Eric) who said he specializes in movies and comics, especially Warner Bros and DC. He made public that he heard rumblings of not only Marvel vs Capcom 4 but Marvel vs DC back in the summer. This is why I pay any attention to it. The guy had things like rough drafts of entire movie scripts that he proved were authentic so, again, credit where credit is due.
Yes. Like I've said, Sora's not been heard in insider circles aside from a couple people saying he was flat out not happening back 2018. Since then, Shinji Hashimoto, the brand manager of all of Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts has said that Sora wasn't happening in Smash either. Based on all these things, I don't see Sora as one of the six and only see him happening if Sakurai changes his mind and adds more characters.
Those are my thoughts. Sakurai plans things goofy far in advance. Base roster for Smash Ultimate was decided three years out, for example. Greninja and Inceniroar were added to their respective debut games when they were nothing but concept art. I totally believe that Sakurai had characters already in mind for Season 2 back in 2018. Once again, Season 2 is being dragged out to almost 2022 and they already decided everyone by the beginning of 2020. I strongly believe that Sakurai decided most of Season 2 by Ultimate's launch because that's totally in his personality.
Only one has specifically mentioned Geno and he thinks he's going to be 6. I don't believe that. Again, as Geno Jean Valjean, I love the character to death but I don't think he'd be a good 6 or a way to kick off Season 2. Geno's got a hell of a legacy in the Smash fanbase and starting things off with him would shoot expectations through the roof. Granted, I think all of Season 2 will be big fan favorites but I think they're going to plan things out accordingly.
Well. Byleth was clearly chosen from the start, but the release order of things were likely decided based upon these kind of factors too. Joker was revealed a bit earlier than expected(as said by Sakurai), and that's also noticeable since he didn't have a full model to present till some time later even. On the other hand, his game was far more recent, so it actually fits time well. And he's an all new character that's super unexpected, and not based remotely upon his Nintendo appearances, further setting the stage for a unique hype one..
That is still one of the questions. It still feels like Byleth is a better base roster pick than perhaps Simon and Inlkings, the two series newcomers in the base game. After all Roy already exists to be a character released after his main title even if it wasn't originally planned. So unless Nintendo didn't really want to keep the hype for the last.
Out of the five FP fighters, two are clearly gaming veterans, DQ heroes at least manages to defend by having multiple alts from past games. Joker, relunctatnly, as a human character he might be considered more identifiable and unique than all past Persona protagonists, and he is still the first Persona fighter. Byleth specifcally only relates to FE3H, which is why s/he is obvious for advertising.
Not saying that there cannot be new protagonists, but better be a new IP to show the diversity of historical depth. Splatoon represents an IP from WiiU, so maybe we need a 3DS or Switch one?
Haven't really asked. Like I've said, they've mostly been taking things one step at a time. Only one made a hard guess for 5 and they guessed Master Chief. For 6, same situation and only one is making a hard guess right now and it's the same guy and he's thinking Geno. Ironically, this same contact thinks Cacomallow is fake while the other 3 think it's real. One has commented that he has no personal attachment to Geno but he's enjoying seeing the enthusiasm and drive the Geno fanbase has.
On the topic of Dante and Crash, it's kind of par the course for both characters. Devil May Cry has had literally every major announcement attached to it spoiled in the last two years. It's also a well known fact that Capcom is absolutely legendary for being comically bad at keeping secrets. Back in the fall, Naz and Nekoo talked to me about this topic and why both of them gave credence to the Dante rumors in Smash rumors ultimately being true and I believe both backed Dante for 5 until the NoA ambassador said "no Namco, no Capcom" in late November. On the topic of the NoA ambassador, he mentioned that he believed Dante was leakbait in early November and I talk about this extensively here:
A big part of his reasoning was that Dante was "heard too often." Again, like Purple Overall Freddie Mercury, he was a character that was heard by just about everyone regardless of their track record or standing in the industry. When everybody from the King to the poopsmith has heard something, it definitely makes you wonder: is this a super obvious lie or a horribly kept secret? On the side of caution, they leaned on the first. Again, even schmos like me knew about the Devil May Cry games including the Trilogy waaaaaay in advance so, again, Dante being a **** kept secret would be weirdly appropriate.
Crash is predominantly in the same boat. Activision/Blizzard sucks at keeping secrets. Crash Nsane Trilogy was leaked and so was CTR. Activision has hardcore flubbed keeping literally any DLC for CTR secret. The Spyro Trilogy was leaked too. Overwatch for Switch was leaked. Overwatch 2 was leaked. You get the idea. Activision can't keep a secret to save its life. Again, this is the reason why confidence is extremely high. Supposedly damning evidence going back to JULY for Crash coming to Smash has been found and... Activision has done virtually nothing about it. Again, like two of my contacts have said, it's pretty embarrassing but Activision gives negative ****s for some reason. No one knows why but the consensus is the evidence is apparently so strong that it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.
Gosh darn dagnabbit! Gotta input another factor to the theory crafting I posted earlier. Along with the comparison to normal distribution curve shapes (basic bell-shaped, and skewed one), I feel it is appropriate I added a more down-to-Earth factor; business choices. Prior to this past week's Smash Direct, it was uncertain how would the future DLC characters be sold as; whether if individually, or within a second Fighters Pass (which is what ended up being announced). Out of the two possibilities, a second Fighters Pass always made the more sense within a business perspective. If I'm going to be selling content for the next two years, and said content will be released sporadically, I'd like to cash in on the whole of all that content on day 1; hence the Fighters Pass Vol. 2. Now, here's the second part to this business way of thinking. Ok, ok. From the first Fighters Pass, we could observe that after it having been announced before the game launched; many (customers/clients) still had their reserves on whether buying the Fighters Pass or not. To this the question was of course, "how do we convince them to purchase the Fighters Pass, in contrast to them waiting to buy individual challenger packs when they release?". The answer to this query came in the form of Joker's TGA 2018 surprise reveal, and Reggie's subsequent statement in regards to their approach to the Fighters Pass. A "flavor" to how the Fighters Pass was being handled, consisting of characters from franchises one would not expect in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Joker was at the time, the perfect example. His initial reveal certainly motivated many fans to go ahead and purchase the Fighters Pass. Not more so due to Joker, but rather due to the expectation that the Fighters Pass would mainly consist of characters from series not yet represented in Smash (and of course just to have the full roster).
Fast forward to today, the same scenario begins anew. The answer to the query back then of "how do we convince them to purchase the Fighters Pass (Vol. 2), rather than them waiting to purchase their preferred Challenger Packs individually?", it is only a matter to repeat what worked last time. Start the Fighters Pass Vol. 2 with a curve-ball-surprise reveal a-la Joker, and then follow up with one or two more mind-blowing/cathartic reveals such as Hero's and Banjo's (yes, Hero was also a BIG deal being a rep from a legendary JRPG series).
Now, adding this business decision input to the normal distribution curve theory crafting, the two likely scenarios slightly changed. We could still have the same simple (one peak) normal distribution curve pattern of Challenger Packs 6 through 8 being the hypest reveals of the Pass (and maybe 9 as well); but it could also be likely that the pattern would skew itself (literally) to a skewed, one peak, normal distribution curve (the peak skewed more to the left). If the left-skewed normal distribution curve pattern were to pan out, this would mean that Challenger Pack 6 would be hype, but 7 would be insurmountable in hype (hmm... feels like... Geno). Afterwards Challenger Pack 8 could still be a hype one, but from there on out the reception could be somewhat mixed. Again, this if it were the case of a left-skewed normal distribution curve scenario. Either patter could play out, considering the factor of business decision making, and the objective of SELLING the Fighters Pass Vol. 2 (because... why make another Fighters Pass and not just sell the characters individually, am I right?).
With all that being said, please feel free to input this theory crafting to the potential candidates for Fighters Pass Vol. 2. Have a wonderful day everyone!
I kinda feel Geno is 7 like Fatman said and he's gonna be the E3 bombshell like Banjo was. If I take Mandy's word then Crash is 6. If they started out with those two I'd be one hell of a happy camper.
I just counted and I think it puts it at 99 if we just count separate characters like the Koopa Kids, Alph, and the 4 different Heroes but not count both the male and female alts. So odds are one of the 6 DLC could have an alt as well.
Such a profound and multi-layered statement. All I have to say in addition to your comments is that I find it heavily ironic that people are saying to abandon all rumors and theorycraft. What the hell do they think "speculation" is???? To abandon those things entirely is to defeat the entire purpose of the thread. If you want a social thread where you just crap on Geno, maybe make a new thread for all 2 or 3 people that get off on that sort of thing.
Basically most newcomers from Smash 5 are popular and demanded, if you ask. I'm always not so sure why some peole assume NIntendo usually put characters with no mainstream demand.
If you indicate that Byleth isn;t much demanded for the Fighter Pass, the same probem could be for Geno in the end.
TL;DR This post notes how the trailer seemed like it was made for a normal Nintendo Direct rather than a one-off presentation, in the way that it built itself up like it was for something unrelated to Smash (maybe FE:3H DLC?) but it was actually for Smash, basically just like the Inkling, Isabelle, and Joker reveals. Because it was first shown during a Smash presentation, the suprise was completely ruined and most everyone knew it was for Byleth in Smash before the trailer outright made it known. This may actually help support the idea that Byleth wasn't originally supposed to be FP5, and they instead decided to release them earlier rather than keep them for the Direct. Perhaps this means that the Spring Direct was pushed back until after February, and they didn't want to miss the deadline?
I actually thought about that. It felt lije Sakurai made the smash presentstion because nintendo was and still is pussyfooting around with a general direct so he said "Forget you, Ill do it myself"
Yes. Like I've said, Sora's not been heard in insider circles aside from a couple people saying he was flat out not happening back 2018. Since then, Shinji Hashimoto, the brand manager of all of Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts has said that Sora wasn't happening in Smash either. Based on all these things, I don't see Sora as one of the six and only see him happening if Sakurai changes his mind and adds more characters.
I feel bad for the Sora fans but the good thing about this is that is one more reason so people can stop worrying about the costume coming back.
btw good morning everyone
TL;DR This post notes how the trailer seemed like it was made for a normal Nintendo Direct rather than a one-off presentation, in the way that it built itself up like it was for something unrelated to Smash (maybe FE:3H DLC?) but it was actually for Smash, basically just like the Inkling, Isabelle, and Joker reveals. Because it was first shown during a Smash presentation, the suprise was completely ruined and most everyone knew it was for Byleth in Smash before the trailer outright made it known. This may actually help support the idea that Byleth wasn't originally supposed to be FP5, and they instead decided to release them earlier rather than keep them for the Direct. Perhaps this means that the Spring Direct was pushed back until after February, and they didn't want to miss the deadline?
While 6 can and probably will still be shown in the next Direct (which I still think is soon), this does support the theory that 5 and 6 were originally going to be in the same presentation like I predicted. Like I keep saying, **** changes and sometimes information I get was originally gotten months in advance. I heard the strong possibility of 5 and 6 being together in November, 2 1/2 months ago. It's super frustrating because stuff can change without warning, another reason I'm super suspicious of Ryu now. Either he's 6 or he's not happening at all and I hard stand by that.
Just dropping a message to introduce myself here....bit of a long time lurker of the Geno thread. I’ve been lurking here since around the time of the Cacomallow leak and all of your theory and speculation has kept me so interested!
Haven’t been part of a forum in over 10 years, so this should be interesting...
Just dropping a message to introduce myself here....bit of a long time lurker of the Geno thread. I’ve been lurking here since around the time of the Cacomallow leak and all of your theory and speculation has kept me so interested!
Haven’t been part of a forum in over 10 years, so this should be interesting...
Does Nintendo and Sakurai even remotely realize how marketable Geno hats could be??? At this point they kind of represent a symbol for resistance/perseverance! Kinda like the Mockingjay symbol from Hunger Games...
Also shoutout to Fatmanonice
for your clear, informative, and succinct theorycrafts. You do write like a published academic and it shows! Keep them coming!
Just dropping a message to introduce myself here....bit of a long time lurker of the Geno thread. I’ve been lurking here since around the time of the Cacomallow leak and all of your theory and speculation has kept me so interested!
Haven’t been part of a forum in over 10 years, so this should be interesting...
Does Nintendo and Sakurai even remotely realize how marketable Geno hats could be??? At this point they kind of represent a symbol for resistance/perseverance! Kinda like the Mockingjay symbol from Hunger Games...
Also shoutout to Fatmanonice
for your clear, informative, and succinct theorycrafts. You do write like a published academic and it shows! Keep them coming!
I've already gotten 5 messages about Crash this morning so I'll talk about what I can:
"Fatman, what is this supposed damning evidence for Crash in Smash?"
I feel like I can elaborate because not only have 2 contacts shared this with me but like 4 confidants too. I have yet to see them myself but supposedly Activision **** the bed in an absolutely legendary way. You know the rocket nozzle from Super Mario Sunshine? Imagine that but, you know, ****. Supposedly Activision accidentally made development documents for the future plans of the Crash franchise public back in the summer. Blame the legendary Intern-Kun or whatever but somehow they got online. Tons of people noticed and I'm assuming they got taken down because that's a hell of a mistake. People claim to have screenshots and, honestly, I understand why nobody is openly bragging about that. If this story is true, it's super embarrassing and there's probably no doubt that at least one person got fired over it. This also helps explain why so many people were pushing for Crash for 5 despite credible Crash in Smash rumors only being around since about May/June 2019. Again, I personally can't prove this but an unusually large number of people are swearing by it on my end. That said, it's either true or a hard bamboozle and, like we've established, Activision is catastrophically terrible at keeping secrets so I'm personally betting on the first.
I'm quite envious of you gentlemen. Even when you have defeatists on your server, you're still willing to get right back up and pack a wallop. It's quite the respectable strength to have these days.
We've been dealing with someone who keeps on being all defeatist just because of the Mii Costume string. So I've been feeling slightly down.
While 6 can and probably will still be shown in the next Direct (which I still think is soon), this does support the theory that 5 and 6 were originally going to be in the same presentation like I predicted. Like I keep saying, **** changes and sometimes information I get was originally gotten months in advance. I heard the strong possibility of 5 and 6 being together in November, 2 1/2 months ago. It's super frustrating because stuff can change without warning, another reason I'm super suspicious of Ryu now. Either he's 6 or he's not happening at all and I hard stand by that.
Watching some more reaction videos of Byleth's character reveal, I can see now how it is very possible (and most likely is what actually happened) that indeed Byleth was switched in as Challenger Pack 5 at last minute, and the original DLC #5 may have been moved to Vol. 2. Byleth's reveal trailer is atypical for a Smash Direct since:
1. If it's in a Smash Direct, OF COURSE it's for a character being added to Smash.
2. The reveal itself would have been more impactful had it been in a General Direct where spectators would first think of it being a reveal trailer for more Three Houses content, and not Byleth joining Smash. The first part of the trailer up until Sothis's request/order to Byleth for them to join Smash makes this even more evident.
In addition to these points, the time in which the Smash Direct was broadcasted was also rather off, but after knowing its content it made sense. "Let's broadcast this early during the day when most are either at school, or work" perhaps they thought. The reactions came in regardless. And if Sakurai's statement before revealing the character wasn't enough; "however, even if you say "that's not the character I was picturing" I hope you don't have any hard feelings." That line alone leads me to think that Sakurai had a feeling Byleth's reception would be "controversial".
I think my new favorite meme I found was one saying people were wanting Dante, Sora, 2B and Monster Hunter but were mad when Byleth showed up.
Bruh, do you not see the irony of wanting a swordwielder that swaps weapons in one way or another and then hating on Byleth?
This is proof that all the hate is LITERALLY just because Byleth is from Fire Emblem. If Byleth was from another franchise, even one no one heard about, they would be less angry. This is one of the things PapaGenos did that I couldn't agree with when he mentioned it would have been cooler with a Monster Hunter and frankly I disagree entirely because Monster Hunter has cooler weapons like the Switch Axe and the Charge Blade but also saying he would accept the exact same character if they were a Hunter in Rathalos armor instead of the main character of the amazing Three Houses.
It's so stupidly petty and a form of goalpost moving and I hate it.
Watching some more reaction videos of Byleth's character reveal, I can see now how it is very possible (and most likely is what actually happened) that indeed Byleth was switched in as Challenger Pack 5 at last minute, and the original DLC #5 may have been moved to Vol. 2. Byleth's reveal trailer is atypical for a Smash Direct since:
1. If it's in a Smash Direct, OF COURSE it's for a character being added to Smash.
2. The reveal itself would have been more impactful had it been in a General Direct where spectators would first think of it being a reveal trailer for more Three Houses content, and not Byleth joining Smash. The first part of the trailer up until Sothis's request/order to Byleth for them to join Smash makes this even more evident.
In addition to these points, the time in which the Smash Direct was broadcasted was also rather off, but after knowing its content it made sense. "Let's broadcast this early during the day when most are either at school, or work" perhaps they thought. The reactions came in regardless. And if Sakurai's statement before revealing the character wasn't enough; "however, even if you say "that's not the character I was picturing" I hope you don't have any hard feelings." That line alone leads me to think that Sakurai had a feeling Byleth's reception would be "controversial".
As much as I typically hate buying into conspiracies, this one could honestly be true. It would make sense that Sakurai/Nintendo actually did want to end the fighter pass on a banger but then Summer 2019 rolled around and they decided on more DLC which meant that they'd need to start the next pass of hype. It was soon realized that FP6 (Byleth) would be an awful way to start things off, especially if this was gonna be the only character people could get in the 2nd pass for months, so they decided to switch the hype FP5 and FP6 so that they could start the second pass off with a hype character and fighter pass 2's precedent wasn't a random FE shill pick until June.
I know he got banned but I wanted to give a quick shout-out to nessdeltarune00
. He's definitely a critic of mine but he's usually pretty good about it. Yes, things have gotten heated in the past but I think we've mostly patched things up. It's funny but I now have like 4 or 5 people who used to absolutely hate my guts but are now confidants so, yes, I am absolutely open to peaceful resolutions. So far there's only like two people on my **** List (no, Sabi and Verge aren't either of them and with Sabi it's simple a matter of "you live your life, I live mine") and they know who they are but, again, I'm willing to work things out in a vast majority of cases.
I mention Ness because he was was able to back up me knowing about Cuphead and the rest of the "lol, nope" list in advance. A lot of people have messaged me about it. "So... It's a Mii costume list?" No, it's always been described as a simple deconfirmation list but now I'm genuinely wondering if it is a potential Mii costume list after all. I've began to digest the names on the list and here's the basic breakdown:
3 Namco (Ms. Pac-Man, Kos-Mos, Nightmare)
1 Square Enix (???)
2 Microsoft (Cuphead and ???)
1 Indie (???)
1 SEGA (Arle)
1 Travis
1 Capcom (Elecman)
1 Nintendo (Gooigi)
1 ??? (definitely not spoiling this one)
Now, many people have noted the 4chan "Slime" Mii costume leak that had the 4 Three Houses costumes and the 2 indies, Kris from Deltarune and Knight from Hollow Knight. I can confirm this came from one of my contacts and they were incredibly pissed about it. They shared it with me on Christmas but apparently I was one of the last people they told. The situation was bad enough that 3 people apologized to ME in private over the leak. Let's just say my contact dropped a ton of confidants that day and will probably never speak to them again.
So, that out of the way, one of these Mii costumes was dead wrong: Male and female Byleth. Miserably ironic because we knew the TH stage and spirits were coming but we both didn't put two and two together. Super embarrassing but it happens. So, no surprise, the other 3 TH Mii costumes were the three house leaders: Stinky, Winky, and Malinky (that's their names, right?) Plug these 5 hypothetical Mii costumes in and we get this:
3 Namco
1 Square Enix
2 Microsoft
3 Indie
1 SEGA
1 Travis
1 Capcom
4 Nintendo
1 ???
Interesting. Now let's plug in the MIA Smash 4 DLC costumes:
6 Namco (add on Lloyd, Gil, and Heihachi)
3 Square Enix (add on Geno and Chocobo)
3 Capcom (add on Monster Hunter and Rathalos)
Let's go one step further and plug in the currently MIA Mii costume leak costumes from the summer and Cacodemon:
5 Square Enix (Mallow and Smithy)
1 Bethesda (Cacodemon)
Based on the Power of Six theory and Power of Two theory, we've had a hypothesis since about September that three of Season 2's characters would be Namco, Square, and Capcom. Power of Six theory suggests that no pack will have no more than six costumes and here's where we're at on those:
Namco- 6
Square Enix- 5
Capcom- 3
Coincidentally we have 5 potential Mii costumes that could count as "premium", the 3 Indies, Travis, and ???. There's 6 packs and Namco has a full pack of 6 based on this model. There's technically 4 Nintendo potentially accounted for if the TH costumes weren't bad info. Still, VERY interesting if this really was a Mii costume list. Again, nobody said it was and everyone assumed it was a simple rejection list. This is quite a potential development...
My ban has finally been lifted. Jesus Christ, this place is turning into a borderline police state but hey, it is what it is. All I can say is I've had time these last 3 days to process Byleths inclusion into Smash, and to be brutally honest, I spent very little time thinking about it. I was over it before my posting privileges even were revoked. I think it's totally justified to be a little upset by it, but to act like spoiled rotten man-children like PapaGenos is just ridiculous. I expected better from him, so I unsubbed. I also expected better from some people in this thread. There's been a couple of goddamn stupid idiots gere saying goddamn stupid things but alas, I guess Smash Bros. means their lives to them which is sad and pathetic. Granted, this thread hasn't been as others have been during my few days of lurking, so I won't put to much attention on any certain individuals. They know who they are.
Eleven DLC characters and people can't forgive Nintendo or Sakurai for making one an FE character? Eleven guys. The rest prior to Byleth have been pretty goddamn awesome regardless of how controversial guys like Hero or Terry have been, they're fun as hell to play. I think people need to realize that Sakurai doesn't owe us a jack****. If people do think Sakurai owes us better or more then I think those people should just take their entitled asses and find a new game to play. The damage is done and the decision is irreversible. Although I'm not excited about Byleths inclusion and I don't play or care one bit about FE I'm looking forward to playing him/her.
Also, I saw Fatmanonice
posted some of his info. That's ballsy. Although impulsive and something that I personally wouldn't have done, that's ballsy and I respect that. My favourite part was when people were telling him to go afk or take a break. Although I admire some of the folks saying this and I genuinely believe that maybe they do have concern for his well being when he did this, the last thing he's gonna do is walk away, especially when he's told to walk away. When you ask Fatman to jump, he doesn't ask "how high?" he responds with: "I'll do ya one better, hold my beer and watch this ****!".
Also I keep seeing some discussion about Waluigi. I want to share again my case for why Waluigi won't be and shouldn't be in Smash, it's my own personal essay but I think it fell on deaf ears because it was posted minutes before the announcement of the Smash presentation so give it some time if you have it! It also covers a bit why I believe Pirahna Plant was always considered to be under the category of bonus or FreeLC because I'm not convinced he was ever considered for base game or the FP as this topics been brought up the last few days as well. Granted, this post is a little dated because it was posted before the presentation but points about the stuff I mention still stands.
Hey guys. I've been thinking about it for a while and I decided that I wanted to make a long winded post and vent my frustrations about a certain character many people on these boards and elsewhere are sold on and why it kind of infuriates me a little. So here's my case why I don't think Waluigi should be or will be in Smash.
Before you do read though if you choose to, I will offer some context why I'm posting this here. Our Geno thread has always felt more like a general discussion thread for Geno fans and I think the same can be said for the other character threads too. It was like that in the Brawl days which I was heavily involved in when I was a kid. I know this isn't specifically related to Geno and if I get a warning for being off-topic, so be it but I put a good amount of time and effort into this post and to be honest, this is the only place I really feel comfortable posting it and some of these feelings I have need to be said. So, with that being said...
First and foremost, I'm not going to cover the toxicity of a small minority of the Waluigi fanbase. Truth is, I know that there are a lot of kind hearted people that are fans of this character. Some people would view Waluigi's inclusion as rewarding abhorrent behavior like throwing fits or sending death threats to Sakurai but I don't see it that way at all. Every characters fanbase has their bad apples. We're no exception but I'm only going to be covering the merits, legacy and the current status of Waluigi in Smash and express my feelings why he shouldn't be in and why I'm convinced he won't be. Feel free to disagree. I'm open to these kind of dialogues.
Now, I want to be honest about my arguments and give credit where credit is due. Waluigi's resume is honestly quite rather impressive. He has appeared in over 60 games in the Mario franchise. That's more than most of the characters we have on Ultimates roster right now. Certainly more than Geno. Despite this though, we can't ignore that his appearances only consisted of second-rate titles and spin-offs as a playable character, unlockable skin and/or cameos. This is just my opinion but I know there are others than share this opinion too but regardless of how many games he's been in I don't believe that this many appearances is enough merit to warrant an inclusion on the roster. The number of games a character has been in doesn't matter to me. It's how the character is used in the games that warrants good merit and legitimacy.
Waluigi's inception was only conceived to fill a void. The first Mario Tennis released in 2000 was lacking in human characters and Wario was missing a partner and they wanted to highlight 2v2s. It's a tennis game after all. These are all fair plays on Nintendo's part and I don't see anything wrong with it. Hell, they were also proposing ideas of making a 'Wa' counterpart to Peach. I can only imagine the support that "WaPeach" would get if that concept ever came into fruition. We got Peach and Daisy, What would stop people from supporting another evil counterpart? I think this is the reasoning behind a lot of peoples support for Waluigi, not that there's anything wrong with that in my books. We got the Mario Bros. and Wario. Wouldn't it be a neat idea if the gang was all here? Well, no. I don't think so because the merit is not there in my eyes. Waluigi was only a filler character in the original Mario Tennis and that's it. That's his legacy. To just fill a void for equal balance.
I feel like a lot of people have different definitions of the word 'merit'. At times it can be a little vague, sure and when talking about video games and fictional characters it can get pretty subjective but I see it as something at the quality of being worthy to note by good standards and deserving praise. So far, the 4 DLC characters we've received so far in the Fighters Pass has a lot of merit and received critical praise with a solid legacy to back them all up to boot. It's obvious that Nintendo and Sakurai has high standards for the DLC characters this time around with these 4 alone. Piranha Plant is a weird one but I'm personally convinced that PP was never planned for base or the Fighters Pass. If you look at the culture of gaming today, pretty much 95% of games getting released have pre-order DLC bonuses. In Smash's case, if you registered your copy of Ultimate before the cut-off date, you got PP for free so I do honestly think that PP was always planned to be that FreeLC character because it would be rather odd that a huge game such as Smash wouldn't get a pre-order bonus when most AAA games and even indie games these days do. They wouldn't hand out Terry or Joker for free, but PP, sure. He's just a generic Mario enemy, so why not? (side note: I'm using the term pre-order a little loosely because you could still get PP without pre-ordering, but I do believe PP was intended to be considered under the pre-order category. When I purchased South Park: FBH, I didn't pre-order it but still got the pre-order bonus because it was a little slip of paper in the game case. The content was still considered pre-ordered DLC though. Like most pre-order DLC for other games, PP can still be purchased separately today.)
Going back to Waluigi's merit, it's virtually non-existent in my books. I mean, what world did he save? What world has he tried to rule? What game has he been the prominent face of or antagonist of? What narrative filled storyline or plot has Waluigi been involved in? What the hell has Waluigi done? He's danced, played sports, partied and just been a nuisance to his protagonist counter parts. That's literally it. Maybe we should hold off on the idea of him being playable until he gets a more prominent role in a video game before we start getting behind the idea of him getting an upgrade. I'd be more comfortable with his inclusion if he had a more prominent role, no doubt but the truth is, he doesn't as of right now. I know that people will bring up all sorts of these sort of "joke" characters like WFT, Duck Hunt, ROB or hell, even Pichu but I think an honest case can be made for all of these guys.
Wii Fit Trainer: Essentially acts as your main instructor as you play the game. Helps guide you through your workouts and is essentially to the gameplay. I may not be a huge fan of WFT's inclusion much but I can see the merit in that alone. She's just a fun inclusion in Sakurai's mind and I'm okay with him having a little bit of fun with his games. Duck Hunt: Maybe the character itself isn't iconic, but the game definitely is. Most people that owned the original NES back in the day probably purchased the Mario Bros./Duck Hunt NES bundle that was packaged with the Nintendo Zapper, a very old but iconic peripheral. I know I did, and still own it to this day. Duck Hunts moveset also references games that also utilized the Zapper back in the day. The more representation of these IPs, the merrier in my books. ROB: Pretty much the same deal with Duck Hunt in regards to being a peripheral. ROB was also heavily used in the Subspace Emissary story mode back in Brawl as a generic mook enemy and as one of the major antagonists in the story mode. (I'm forgetting the name of that cloaked figure that turned out to be ROB all along) They took this character and made something out of him to add more prominence to the storyline of SSE and his character, so in a way they added to the merit of ROB. Pichu: Not as iconic as his evolutionary counterpart Pikachu but is the only representation we have of Gen 2, arguably one of the more favoured generations of Pokemon. A lot of people are pretty divided on the idea of clones/echos but we have to acknowledge that clones and echos are am essential part of Smash and have been since Melee. Pichu fits that bill of being a clone and as the years went on, a lot of us have come to terms of the concept of clones and echoes and Pichu fits that bill just fine. Maybe not so much merit behind Pichu as the others, but I personally think that being the pre-evolution of the most popular Pokemon of all time does speak volumes.
These are only just a small handful of examples, I could go on with others but I don't want to make this about other characters nearly as much as Waluigi. Again, I will admit when talking about merits in a video game character, it can get pretty subjective. Some of you may disagree and that's okay but there's something that bugs me a little bit more in the case of Waluigi than merit and legacy. It's the fact that he's a goddamn assist trophy and that's essentially where my feelings on this topic boil down to.
Now, I'm not convinced that spirits deconfirm characters. I've a Geno supporter for over a decade now, so obviously I don't buy it and maybe my bias is the reason for that. Back in Smash 4, trophies didn't deconfirm either. Lucas and Mewtwo is evident of that. I do believe that AT's do deconfirm for many reasons but mostly due to their role and impact to gameplay to those that actually have them active in battle. They're glorified items like Pokeballs. Pokeballs didn't stop Charizard from being playable, but the difference is that Charizard as a Pokeball item hasn't been a thing since Melee. Charizard was playable in Brawl, so they dropped the idea of making him appear as a Pokeball item once his inclusion with Pokemon Trainer. This was a good move on their part and it begs the question: why should a playable character be an item and a playable character? Little Mac is also another great example. His AT got scrapped when he got promoted to the roster in Smash 4 so why do we keep giving Waluigi a hard pass? It makes absolutely no sense to me why people are under the impression he's going to be the exception to the rule. No assist trophy should, otherwise they wouldn't be an AT in the first place. All it's going to do is just give false hope to fans of Shadow, Krystal, Isaac, Bomberman, and other characters with way more merit than Waluigi that unfortunately got beheaded by the AT guillotine. If he was going to be playable, he wouldn't be an AT right now and I firmly stand by that.
I understand that some people will probably bring up the argument like they could just turn off his AT when he's being played in a match, but if that's the case, what the hell was the point of wasting the time and the resources to make him return as an AT in the first place? Why would they waste the time and resources to shut off his AT when he is being used in a match? That's just adding more unnecessary work and as minimal as the time and resources may look or sound, it's still wasted time and resources. These don't sound like credible arguments. I hate to be blunt but they sound like excuses. Truth is, if someone is going to be an Assist Trophy, they should stay one. Sakurai gave them that role and we may not like it for some characters cases but that's how it is for Waluigi and others and it should stay that way. I'm sorry but I'm not convinced and the arguments I've heard and read so far lack credibility. Paragon and Fatmanonice both predict we'll get Waluigi eventually at some point of the DLC's lifecycle whether he's #5 or post-pass. I respect the hell out of both of them because they're good people but I'm convinced at this point regardless of any leaks or rumour based theories. It's way too farfetched to me.
I guess maybe I just need convincing, so my question to everyone that took the time to read this is: why? Why is Waluigi the exception to the rule of being playable and an AT? Why was he brought back as an AT in the first place if he was going to be playable eventually? Why Waluigi and not Isaac or Bomberman or Krystal? Why, oh why are so many people buying this? If you dislike what I have to say, you can call me misguided, ignorant or just a flat out asshole all you want but what I really want to know is why?
I think my new favorite meme I found was one saying people were wanting Dante, Sora, 2B and Monster Hunter but were mad when Byleth showed up.
Bruh, do you not see the irony of wanting a swordwielder that swaps weapons in one way or another and then hating on Byleth?
This is proof that all the hate is LITERALLY just because Byleth is from Fire Emblem. If Byleth was from another franchise, even one no one heard about, they would be less angry. This is one of the things PapaGenos did that I couldn't agree with when he mentioned it would have been cooler with a Monster Hunter and frankly I disagree entirely because Monster Hunter has cooler weapons like the Switch Axe and the Charge Blade but also saying he would accept the exact same character if they were a Hunter in Rathalos armor instead of the main character of the amazing Three Houses.
It's so stupidly petty and a form of goalpost moving and I hate it.
The point is that SSBU is saturated with FE characters at this point with most being added in Smash 4 and people would prefer characters from other franchises get some representation too in SSBU. It’s not all about moveset. Really this is the same logic behind “Characters are just functions” that the Capcom rep got so much **** for when people were upset there weren’t certain mutant characters in MvCI. Appearance and personality wise the FE characters in Smash at this point are all very very similar. That’s what sets the Mario or Pokémon reps apart from FE. There are a lot of those characters too but they’re extremely varied in their designs and whatnot. That’s why Geno wouldn’t get this much criticism for being “another Mario character”. You can love 3H but it doesn’t change the fact that a MonHun rep with that moveset would have at least been a new franchise with a unique design.
The point is that SSBU is saturated with FE characters at this point with most being added in Smash 4 and people would prefer characters from other franchises get some representation too in SSBU. It’s not all about moveset. Really this is the same logic behind “Characters are just functions” that the Capcom rep got so much **** for when people were upset there weren’t certain mutant characters in MvCI. Appearance and personality wise the FE characters in Smash at this point are all very very similar. That’s what sets the Mario or Pokémon reps apart from FE. There are a lot of those characters too but they’re extremely varied in their designs and whatnot. That’s why Geno wouldn’t get this much criticism for being “another Mario character”. You can love 3H but it doesn’t change the fact that a MonHun rep with that moveset would have at least been a new franchise with a unique design.
...Wow, the logic behind the critique makes a lot sense now! I mean, it has always made sense, but this elaboration brings out more nuance and deeper level analysis as to why FE is "hated".
). Ok, hear me out (read actually).
