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General Ness discussion

thesage

thesage

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There are ways to combo GaW. Figure them out yourself. I suck at teaching combos. Just feel for them. I think it's like uair and bair, haven't played the matchup recently. I used to think it was horrible before I learned how to combo into bair which kills early.

Also ness' nair trades with GaW's up-b. IDK if that is useful for edgeguarding. Never tried it. I think pk flash and bat are better at edgeguarding from below...
 
T

toasty

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Can't you Light-shield edgehog against G&W? I don't remember but for some reason I thought someone told me that [if I was in the US right now I'd test it for myself instead of posting something ridiculous and theoretical...so just humor me]

Regardless: I'm not a fan of the matchup...he's got range, priority, and one of the best moves
(dtilt) out of CC [which is a big deal against Ness since you can CC so much against Ness]

Speaking of CC, you can CC G&W's upB and probably just ftilt or, better yet, DJC-nair/bair
EDIT: or CC-fsmash, duh

Mowwwww you better be at Pound 5 suckaaaa...been a long time! (wait...Pound 4, right? XD)

otg - are you going to Pound 5?

I haven't used Ness against Doc in ages and I always loved that matchup against Dogysamich when I was in GA [though we didn't play often, I was starting to figure out what little holes there were in it to exploit XD] Regardless of the matchup, though, we should play :)

Oh god Ness vs. Marth is so ****ing awful when Marth learns the matchup ;__;

I like otg's suggestion to talk about matchups Ness stands a good chance of winning
 
thesage

thesage

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Oh yea. I play that matchup all the time. I think it's like 55-45 Ness. Be careful of dat shield pressure though.

Zapping yoshi out of his dj is hilarious.
 
T

toasty

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Well, there aren't really many "winning" matchups, but there are a good deal of matchups where he at least stands a CHANCE

I also think it's pointless to attach ratios to any of Ness's matchups...he's an awful character; when talking about matchups, just point out what's viable and what you need to watch out for [though that's still a mouthful for such a situation-based character like Ness]
 
thesage

thesage

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Well I just wrote a long *** post on what I thought about the matchups and then hit the back button by accident...

I'll just list the viable ones

S: Fox(FD only), Falco (FD Only), Jigglypuff (Not on DK64 or Dreamland)
A: Captain Falcon (maybe FD only)
B: Ice Climbers (not on FD)
C: Dr. Mario (IDK about him), Ganondorf, Samus (IDK about Samus)
D: Pikachu (IDK), Mario (IDK), Luigi, Donkey Kong
E: Link, Young Link
F: Zelda, Roy (IDK), Mewtwo (IDK), Yoshi, Mr. Game & Watch(IDK)
G: Ness, Bowser, Kirby (IDK), Pichu (IDK)

There's a lot of IDKs sorry. I had reasonings but it was deleted...
 
otg

otg

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Sage I don't think I'm going to Pound 5 sadly, tho who knows, there is still sometime. We'll def play if I do go tho.

I think it would be worth talking about Ness's matchups from the D tier down.
 
thesage

thesage

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I play the Link, Luigi, and Yoshi matchup a lot though lol. It's also worth it if you do low tier mms or tournaments.
 
Jono

Jono

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falco completely controls FD with lasers, i don't see how it's viable at all as ness
 
thesage

thesage

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I play a Luigi here a lot, but doesn't go to tournaments that often.


I played a couple of friendlies with winston last year, but he's a better player than me so IDK if that's really good at telling the matchup. He beats mah Peach too lol.

I think there are some videos of Simna vs. Ka-master. Probably really old though.
 
D

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luigi > ness
ness > GAW

I'll be at pound 5.

ness does fine vs most of the low tier about evenly and loses to characters that matter. no surprises really.
 
thesage

thesage

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Mow: I'm in Richmond. You can come down here if you want. We're having a smashfest this weekend. There's one closer to you though at Sypher's.

I don't has car.
 
thesage

thesage

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It depends on the percentage. U-tilt has too much endlag to combo falco at very low percents (thus it's better to do djc uair usually unless you're trying to beat dair), but a u-tilt can combo into a uair which then can combo into a bair. You can be crazy and do sourspot bair instead of sweetspot bair which then combos into sweetspot bair

I think if falco gets combo'd by u-tilt he probably is at too high a percent to do uair uair uair bat from there...


I'm trying to figure out how to set up combos Shiek. Ness has combos on every character, but no real way to set up for them... Or i just suck. Probably that.
 
Jono

Jono

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thesage said:
It depends on the percentage. U-tilt has too much endlag to combo falco at very low percents (thus it's better to do djc uair usually unless you're trying to beat dair), but a u-tilt can combo into a uair which then can combo into a bair. You can be crazy and do sourspot bair instead of sweetspot bair which then combos into sweetspot bair

I think if falco gets combo'd by u-tilt he probably is at too high a percent to do uair uair uair bat from there...


I'm trying to figure out how to set up combos Shiek. Ness has combos on every character, but no real way to set up for them... Or i just suck. Probably that.
Click to expand...
I`m doing better against Sheik than some other characters recently. I find that it`s generally the same as starting with some other characters. Gotta be confident and hope they don`t cc some moves though.

Starters:
Grab (Dthrow to Uair/Fair/Dash attack, upthrow to PKT if too high for uair to techchase after. watch the jump)
Dash attack
Dair
Uair/tilt
Fair (To grab usually)
PKT (to another PKT or techchase after)

Most can combos into Uair at low to mid %s, can finish with nair/bair.

Yeah obviously try not to get CG'd or tilted, recover just out of range for gimps (but try not to get edgehogged).
 
thesage

thesage

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"Yeah obviously try not to get CG'd or tilted, recover just out of range for gimps (but try not to get edgehogged)."

That's the hard part for me.

I know those moves set up for combos, but it's not like those moves are easy to hit shiek with. She can just aerial you during dair startup, Ness' grab has no range, she's sticking on the ground so fair can be cc'd, uair/u-tilt requires her to be above you. If Shiek sticks to the ground what can Ness do really. Just bait attacks and punish her lag (of which there is very little) if she keeps spacing f-tilt is there really much Ness can do? He doesn't have a ranged cc game that's fast enough to punish her I think (maybe cc wd grab?) CC is what usually gives Shiek trouble...
 
ChivalRuse

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CC -> running grab, Sage.

The way I see it, zoning with SH retreating fairs and avoiding grabs by dash dancing is about the only gameplan you can have against Sheik.
 
thesage

thesage

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I like how everything you suggest for me to do Chival are like really powerful IC strategies (wd oos or cc grab lol). You're right though.

CC running grab kinda takes a long time though...

Ness actually can cc things to a fairly high percent, it's just that he has nothing to cc with. I guess I need to learn how to cc dashgrab... Mow told me to do that like years ago but I suck.

I'm horrible at this game. Never take any advice I say.

I still don't know how to wd/fc oos. I can do djc bair oos kinda like Mofo though. oos Djc bair to grab is ****.

I don't believe the Jigglypuff matchup is that bad. You just have to always have the lead. If she gets ahead you lose cuz Ness loses to her camp game. Just space fairs with godlike ability.
 
ChivalRuse

ChivalRuse

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Wavedash out of shield is pretty necessary in the Ness vs Marth matchup.

And just so you know, Ness can CC -> dash JC grab Sheik's f-tilt guaranteed if you're fast enough (she can't spotdodge in time; just gotta be quick). Works until ~85%, which is higher than it seems like it should work, but nevertheless does.
 
ChivalRuse

ChivalRuse

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One of my favorite tactics against Marth as characters with short grab ranges is to shield a fair, wavedash out of shield through him, and grab him from behind as he lands. It's very good.
 
otg

otg

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thesage said:
I still don't know how to wd/fc oos. I can do djc bair oos kinda like Mofo though. oos Djc bair to grab is ****.

I don't believe the Jigglypuff matchup is that bad. You just have to always have the lead. If she gets ahead you lose cuz Ness loses to her camp game. Just space fairs with godlike ability.
Click to expand...
Wow son, WD oos is probably one of the most basic things you can learn and REALLY makes dealing with certain characters a whole lot easier. As for Ness's CC game, I opt for CC grab (lol on that tho), dtilt and fsmash, tho none of them are really that good and are all situational/rely on bad spacing. Yeah Ness is pretty terrible.

As for the Jiggs matchup, good luck getting the lead and retaining it the whole match. For every bair she does, you need at least 2 or 3 Fairs to make up the difference. She also has a way easier time comboing, edgeguarding, KOing and recovering. Let's not forget how terrible Ness's recovery is. That matchup is probably one of the worst in the game.
 
thesage

thesage

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Edgeguarding Jigglypuff? Lolwut?

If she pounds close to the stage I just punish her endlag with an aerial. It's fun to try to run off and dair her if she's below you, but that's crazy.

Yea I'm horrible.
 
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