Meta General MU Help/Discussion

[ForteX]

Good Yoshi players are something else. Eggs don't bother me as much as Yoshi's armor on second jump, though. I have a friend who mains Yoshi and he's quality stuff, but it's been a while since we've actually played, so I can't remember what I do about eggs other than respect them. If all the guy does is sh back and spam eggs, shield is probably safe. Possibly Metal Blade will compensate for the angle? Hell, even Leaf Shield might eat the eggs, but in no way do I endorse ever using Leaf Shield.

 

[Azazel]

I normally deal with projectiles by walking and perfect shielding (or if they are items, normal shield and jump zcatch/insta-toss), then when I get close predict a defensive option. yoshi is very mobile so you do need to get a good read. Be patient and dont let Yoshi's free egg pressure wear you down and focus on getting that read to break that Egg wall. Megaman doesn't have great zone breakers (Thrown leafshield, and metal blade are his only good ones but they need prep time, dtilt and dash grab and dash attack are ok) so this is the only option.

feel out the yoshi, walk and shield and then when you get close do a safe option like roll back or SH nair and take note of how they reacted to your position.
For example if they attempt to wall you out with an attack like dtilt, fsmash. or if they jump-nair-out-of-there. or they shield or roll.

TL;DR megaman doesn't have great Zone breaking moves. you need a read. Leafshied toss > metalblade toss is megaman's strongest zone breaking option but your opponent will see it coming and prepare for it as well so it is not as effective on experienced players so the read is the way to go.

In higher level play Leafshield toss > metal blade could be helpful in the situation where your opponent can control the pacing of the match because they are faster than Megaman (like yoshi) and you see them retreating to neutral to wall you out, you can pre-emptively set up metal blade + leafshield to zone break before they start wearing you down.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I typically just cancel out the eggs with Sh nairs and metal blades.

Regarding his jump armor... Just wait it out. Most good yoshis will burn an upB before using 2nd jump. Then if he has to (Ness does this too, interestingly), Yoshi players like to double jump onto the stage with an aerial or airdodge. Thing is, you can beat his upB and his 2nd jump options with a full hop falling bair, if you space it well. As long as you don't try to attack the armor, mega can actually edgeguard him well, as his trajectory is pretty easy to predict.

If he tries to go low before 2nd jumping, you can footstool his 2nd jump. This is SO dirty against him, and he can't attack / dodge without losing his armor, so it works more than you'd think in the situation. If he goes high, it's uair city.

Shield is actually very good against him if you watch for his down b. His grab is slow and doesn't lead to anything at kill %s, so I find myself living to insane percentages against him just by overusing shield and spot dodges.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

I need help with the Falco MU, I absoloutly hate Falco and his reflector.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I need help with the Falco MU, I absoloutly hate Falco and his reflector.

One simple thing that wull surely help you : use Diagonal MBs. It's kind of silly, but he usually won't be able to reflect them. Use your Mega buster as mucha as possible, so that once you start coming near him, he might become predictable. It really IS an annoying MU because Falco just screws our spacing, but it definitely is winnable.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

One simple thing that wull surely help you : use Diagonal MBs. It's kind of silly, but he usually won't be able to reflect them. Use your Mega buster as mucha as possible, so that once you start coming near him, he might become predictable. It really IS an annoying MU because Falco just screws our spacing, but it definitely is winnable.

The Falco players I experienced spam reflector and combo me. Its hard for Megaman to get out of combos.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

The Falco players I experienced spam reflector and combo me. Its hard for Megaman to get out of combos.

Well, I think it might be easier to tech roll or to use Rush if you really need more breathing room. Leaf Shield can stun him if he runs into you, and you can duck under his lasers, for what it's worth.

 

[ForteX]

Falco is one of my favorite matchups, actually. Because his upB is so short range, I've very rarely encountered one that doesn't use sideB to recover almost primarily. If you can get a Falco off the stage and start to read this, just turn around and charge your Mega Buster. Chances are pretty high you'll hit. This works for Fox too, but isn't as common or as reliable since Fox can move quickly on the ground.

Most important thing to do against any reflector character is to bait the reflector, especially if it's a laggy move. Throw out quick barely charged shots if you're in range, they probably won't react quickly enough. Naturally, you could always go for grabs. Like Octobot said, you can crouch and be under the height of lasers. This is a bit more important against Fox players. Just remain crouched and wait for an approach, react accordingly.

 

[ChopperDave]

Do more landing uairs. I find that Falcos generally have a hard time dealing with uair, as it's not easy for him to reflect, it's fairly safe on shield (if you land behind him), and it messes up a lot of his approach options. Falco's horizontal air speed, like Fox's, is pretty terrible, and unlike Fox his reflector is almost worthless in the air, so MM benefits a lot from knocking him into the air for juggles.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I keep finding pit to be tough matchup with his good reflector and long lasting smashes, any tips?

 

[ChopperDave]

Haven't played a ton of good Pits, but here is some general advice.

• You should almost always UpB first when recovering to avoid arrow gimps. Once you're safely within range of the stage you can then decide whether or not you want to drop to ledge.

• Pit's reflect has a ton of endlag and we can grab him out of it, so use a single lemon (or two so they cancel each other out) or angled Metal Blade to bait the reflect and punish with grab.

• Be careful when trying to punish his smashes, as a lot of Pits will use them as bait. His usmash is pretty punishable, his fsmash is punishable but will push you out of grab range on shield, and his dsmash is super quick and hard to punish (especially online).

• Figure out the Pit player's habits, especially after he whiffs an ftilt or smash. Some will go for another ftilt or smash (usually dsmash) immediately afterwards, some will spot dodge, others will roll, a few will jump. I've noticed that a lot of Pits fall into a pattern of smash -> spot dodge to bait a punish -> punish with grab or dsmash. Usmash is your response if you read the spot dodge. (This is how I get a lot of my Pit KOs.) If you want to be safer and cover your bases, running backward and pivoting into a lemon barrage will hit him pretty much no matter what he does.

• A lot of good Pits will cover their recoveries by firing an arrow, or SideB'ing when you get close. You can neutralize both of these defenses with a z-dropped metal blade, then follow up with bair. This makes us quite good at edgeguarding Pit.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

You can play mind games with Pit.Try dropping your MB and run in and do a dash attack or grab ( Most pit players I fight against in FG mode usually get tricked by the metal blades). Do some B reverse and You can also edge guard him by using leaf shield and footstooling him. I personally find the pit MU to be fairly easy.

 

[SimplyChrono]

Any advice for the falcon or sheik MU?, i struggle a lot with really aggressive characters.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Any advice for the falcon or sheik MU?, i struggle a lot with really aggressive characters.

SH Pellets and Dropping/Picking up Metal Blades. Grabs, and Dtilt really help in this MU

 

[CopShowGuy]

Do some B reverse and You can also edge guard him by using leaf shield and footstooling him. I personally find the pit MU to be fairly easy.

How does that work? Pit's recovery travels so far that I've never been able to do that to him.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

How does that work? Pit's recovery travels so far that I've never been able to do that to him.

Try doing a leaf shield footstool when pit is trying to recover

 

[Locke 06]

Ummm... So plant barrier or leaf shield vs Diddy? Plant barrier covers the ledge easier, but leaf shield is faster to startup. I'm conflicted.

 

[ForteX]

Onstage Diddy's too fast and aggressive for me to consider any of the shields a viable option, and dropping a Metal Blade on his upB or reading the side B are more important/reliable than a gimp with your downB.

I give it an honest effort, and even after reading about and seeing these shield gimps done I just cannot consider MegaMan's down B a viable move unless it's Skull Barrier vs projectile heavy characters.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Try doing a leaf shield footstool when pit is trying to recover

...and then he recovers again after he falls a little.

 

[ForteX]

Characters like Pit with fast but otherwise non-damaging and predictable recoveries are always a prime target for me to run after when I hear/see the recovery happen and go for a bair towards the stage. Worst case scenario you just hit them back up into the stage, but at least they're there on your terms. Best case, you stagespike or push them under the stage to a point where they can't recover.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Hope I'm not breaking conversation, but how do you deal with Ness? He is entirely too much of an asshole to deal with.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I rarely have trouble with ness. I think the biggest thing to do in this matchup is not get hit with PK Fire and try not to get grabbed.

MB out ranges PK Fire pretty well and cannot be absorbed.

 

[Greward]

Most of MM matchups go this way:
Can we stop him from gettnig close with pellets / MB spam?
If the answer is yes, then do this. If the answer is no, then we have to think a bit more.

Ness imo is a yes, so you shoulda try to do that. He's somewhat slow so he has trouble getting in. If he gets in he gets a way superior reward for that than we should if we got in, so it's not the best deal. His grab combos are super good. Camp him, when he gets close enough try to reset the space with full hop shenanigans or grab / dtilt / dash attack, sometimes roll, and repeat. Then try to get him offstage and set up for a gimp to kill. If he starts to upB, hit him with bair and see him fall to death. Onstage kill options are super risky against Ness, so maybe it's best to wait for the Bthrow kill at ~150%.
Watch out for PK fire when camping, though. If he gets you with it it's gonna hurt.

 

[Sorichuudo]

So,

Any tips here?

Been having some trouble against him/her, basically i try my best to stay in pellet range, to harass them while they charge thoron and either shoot the incoming arcfire or dtilt under it. But one mistake and that's going to hurt. Especially since, unlike ness, their fire stays there even if we dodge/shield.

Also, i don't know if it is because of online lag (cause it didn't seem too bad) or are they airdodges/rolls better than ours?

Cause i find it weird that if they dodge or roll into my upsmash, that is a multi-hit and sucks opponents in, several times, yet get out unharmed.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Stay away from that Levin Sword!

 

[ForteX]

Robin's a weird character to have issues with. He's slow and doesn't have much reliable anything. I can't think of anything of his that's dangerous to MegaMan.

Robin relies almost entirely on Arcfire, making sure that it goes where he wants it is paramount to his gameplay. Lemons don't negate it, but they do cause it to detonate where they collided. Since Arcfire has a long startup animation that makes it pretty obvious, just shoot it. You'll either hit the fire and put it where Robin doesn't want it to be right now, or hit Robin. Unlike Ness' PK Fire, it isn't affected by gravity, so if you metal blade it at an odd angle in the air, you can actually go right under it with a slide or by low profiling at the beginning of your dash.

Thoron's pretty easy too. The move is essentially more dangerous as a mindgame than it is when it hits you, as it won't kill MegaMan until really high percents. Being afraid of it is your worst option against it, and like most charge moves, I love baiting it and quickly getting out of there with Rush.

In general, Robin's smashes and smashed aerials are the only thing you need to worry about ever, and he shouldn't be able to close in on you to execute them. I think the thing that catches me off guard the most is Elthunder, and that's honestly because of how aggressive I am when playing against Robin.

As for Ness, I have trouble with really good ones, but a lot of that is probably just a gap in our skills, and not a lack of options for MegaMan. Putting a kill on Ness is the hardest part since he's actually kind of dangerous off stage, and I don't want to give him 40ish percent back risking a fsmash on him. Don't get grabbed really is the law of the land with him (even so, MegaMan dies a lot later than other characters do to his backthrow). If you have the opportunity and it looks safe, try to hit PK Thunder with a lemon or metal blade when he's offstage. Free kill.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Need some serious help against Olimar, I fee like he completely shuts down our projectile game and has awesome grabs and smashes.

I just don't have a clue what to do...

 

[Sorichuudo]

Stay away from that Levin Sword!

But it is so pretty !

Some cool advice.

Well, guess it is just me lacking experience against the character, only fought like 3 who knew what they were doing and even then, rewatching the replays i just kept letting them get away with a lot of unsafe stuff.

Going to keep in mind and not be too afraid of thoron from now on.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

What do I do against Rosalina with Customs on....

 

[Funkermonster]

What do I do against ,, , and ? What customs are worth using against them? Besides them, no one has been instant hell nor has been my archenemy yet besides Sheik and Diddy.

 

[Fenrir VII]

What do I do against ,, , and ? What customs are worth using against them? Besides them, no one has been instant hell nor has been my archenemy yet besides Sheik and Diddy.

with those being your bad matchups... improve your pellet play. smart pelleting gives all these chars a hard time, especially ZSS.

 

[ForteX]

Yeah, no. I have problems with ROB too, "shoot more lemons" is not the answer to every problem, and ROB is one of those. It doesn't even take much practice with ROB to shut out MegaMan. To even be within lemon range of ROB, you're within range of Gyro, Laser, and pretty much all of ROB's tilts and jabs. The amount of disruption the Gyro causes the second it hits the stage is unreal, and shuts out any option for approach, and ROB doesn't have to do anything except hang back, fire a laser, and wait for it to disappear so he can shoot another. It's like if Villager had a tree that passively hit people. Once ROB has the percent lead, there's pretty much no hope for coming back unless he does something stupid.

I'm thoroughly convinced ROB is probably MegaMan's hardest matchup (aside from himself), and probably one of the best characters in the game, if people would stop riding Diddy's kong dong for long enough to notice.

 

[CopShowGuy]

You can shoot the Gyro out of the air before it hits the ground.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Rob matchup is not our hardest matchup. I don't even believe it's negative for us.. I mean come on, pellets cancel the gyro as soon as he throws it. Laser is annoying, but is avoidable, punishable, and it doesn't really kill except in dire circumstances. Pellets also stop his wind up, so if you are in range of pellets, he can't fire a laser. Pellets also outrange his tilts.

He's vulnerable to all of our dthrow combos, a huge target for metal blade and bair, has no reliable way to get down thru uair without retreating offstage (unsafe) or airdodging (super unsafe). His upB is punishable as he can't dodge directly after initiating it, so bair /Nair edgeguarding or even stage spikes are options.

Best thing he has going for him are a strong grab game and low-lag rolls so he has an option to roll thru pellets (can be grabbed with good spacing as you'll be behind him). I'm certainly not saying we stomp him, but I do think we win the matchup

 

[ChopperDave]

Yeah, no. I have problems with ROB too, "shoot more lemons" is not the answer to every problem, and ROB is one of those. It doesn't even take much practice with ROB to shut out MegaMan. To even be within lemon range of ROB, you're within range of Gyro, Laser, and pretty much all of ROB's tilts and jabs. The amount of disruption the Gyro causes the second it hits the stage is unreal, and shuts out any option for approach, and ROB doesn't have to do anything except hang back, fire a laser, and wait for it to disappear so he can shoot another. It's like if Villager had a tree that passively hit people. Once ROB has the percent lead, there's pretty much no hope for coming back unless he does something stupid.

I'm thoroughly convinced ROB is probably MegaMan's hardest matchup (aside from himself), and probably one of the best characters in the game, if people would stop riding Diddy's kong dong for long enough to notice.

Most of your issues can be resolved by... picking up the gyro. Just land on it while pressing L to pick it up and shield, and voila, now you've got a gyro in hand while shielding the laser if it comes.

Also, you can just shoot it with one lemon to make it go away.

ROB doesn't feel all that threatening to me once you take his gyro away, and Mega Man can hold onto items for a looooooong time without it limiting too many of his options. You can hold onto the gyro while firing lemons, metal blades, crash bombers, and leaf shields, all of which are easy to land on ROB because he's gigantic. He's ridiculously easy to space with lemons, and if he ever commits to a reflect (which frustrated / spaced ROBs tend to do) and you shield it, you get a free usmash/utilt/dsmash.

Idk, I think ROB is in our favor, possibly even VERY in our favor. I play against a pretty good ROB player fairly regularly and she thinks MM is close to unwinnable, at least in a customs off environment. Could be that I'm just better than her and she's getting frustrated, though

 

[ForteX]

You can shoot the Gyro out of the air before it hits the ground.

Very true, but more often than not, the Gryo hits the ground while I'm out of range of hitting it. It's an impressive option for ROB to just throw out while MegaMan's in knockback, after which there's a few seconds of attack blocking Gyro between ROB and MegaMan. Metal Blade goes through it and Crash Bomb auto detonates on it, but since it's effectively a stationary lemon, there's no reliable followup to either of those.

I dunno what it is. I've played outstanding matches against people clearly on or slightly above my skill level who went with Rosalina or Diddy, sometimes Fox, and the matchup feels more in my favor. Even if I don't win, the game is infinitely closer, coming down to an obvious mistake on my end being what killed it, meanwhile the only mistake I can identify in the ROB matchup is not switching to a different character. A friend of mine normally plays Pac-Man and I take probably 85% of the games against him, but he went ROB once on a whim, and I couldn't even take a stock off of him.

I'll try to practice doing jabs/fsmash with an item in hand and see if that helps.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I still stand by the opinion that Sheik and CF are our only 2 truly negative matchups in the current metagame (yay for discussion that may become completely irrelevant in the next 4 days)

Other matchups that have potential of being negative include Rosa, Greninja, Diddy, Sonic, Olimar, Fox, G&W, Wario, Pit/D Pit, Tink, Lucario, Jiggly, Kirby, Pacman
All the ones in green, I believe are no worse than even/very slight disadvantage (55-45). The other ones, I just don't have much experience against, and I can see their tools against us. I also have no idea about the Miis... offhand it seems like we have tools against them, but I've never played a good one.

 

[Greward]

Kirby and jiggly aren't disadvantage imo. Neither is G&W nor Greninja (I think we counter greninja actually. Haven't played with amsa though).
Pacman is even or advantage i'd say. Lack exp tho
Tink is bad, lucario is bad too (at least customs OFF, customs ON we might beat lucario)
Diddy and sonic are broken but once nerfed we should win
Rosalina I'm not sure, probably even.
Olimar, Fox and Wario are -1 imo.
Pit is harder than Falcon imo. Altho Pit with customs ON gets easier.
Sheik is impossibru.

I'd also say that Pika, ZSS and maybe Mario are -1, and yoshi might be -2 imo.
Mii Brawler (X122) is probably -2. Hard matchup. 1111 is in our advantage. We should beat the other Miis though.
ROB, Shulk and MK should be evenish.

Imo we win the others.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I've heard pacman is really bad, but I've never had a problem with one. That said, there's like <5 actually good Pacmen in the world, so all of us have very little experience. Figured I'd throw him on the list out of respect and lack of personal knowledge.

Greninja is super even, imo. he has a way of getting inside and punishing that very few characters do. Actually, I'm now curious how you could consider Fox a bad matchup, but Greninja a very good one, as their strengths are similar (good mobility, general low-risk moves, fast falling, good combos/punish game, and decent killers). I'd actually argue that Greninja has safer approach options, better air mobility, and similar damage output/killpower, so I'm really curious on this one...

Diddy and Sonic are both no worse than even, imo. I actually think Mega vs Diddy is among Diddy's current worst matchups.

Lucario is interesting. If he had no aura mechanic, the matchup would be firmly in our favor imo. I do think we win the spacing game to a rather large degree on him. the fact that he starts killing so early is problematic, but I don't think the matchup is extremely negative, because our tools can consistently keep him out, so it just becomes a matter of whether or not we can kill/avoid his killers.

Gotta say, I think you and I are just going to disagree on matchups. Could be a difference in region or playstyle, but you considering Pika, ZSS, Mario, Fox, and Yoshi bad matchups just blows my mind, honestly, and goes against the majority Megaman opinion for at least several of these (ZSS in particular)..

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I think the more and more you play yoshi, Mario and pika the easier they become.

Trust @ Fenrir VII I played him in dittos on anthers (as PwnCall) and he is no joke.