Meta General MU Help/Discussion

[CopShowGuy]

Yeah, I'm him! Zex is the best player in Northern Cal, but lives with ZeRo and M2K in Socal right now, where he's rated top 5. Tough match, haha, but I promise there are better videos of me out there.

I'd like to see some of those videos. Going against that Sheik looked rough.

 

[Kronos2560]

I'd like to see some of those videos. Going against that Sheik looked rough.

Yeah, it was. But it was a good learning experience because I've never gotten to play Zex before until that night. I actually was staying with him a bit, but it was hard to finish him off with how slick his movement is.

Something interesting about him is that while most people only have offensive tricks to land kills, he has defensive tricks that forces you to whiff, and let's him get an easy punish.

-----

Anyway, here's a good video of me. I beat a guy who has gotten top-8 at the foundry before.

Let's just say, it teaches everyone why it's important to tech against Megaman. Haha

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NE3dm6aP3eA

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I know this is the matchup thread but would you mind explaining the jab lock that you did there. Which chars it works on, how to start it, and if it can be broken out of?

Mega's big weakness is getting kills and that made it look easy.

 

[Blade Knight]

Mega Man's jab lock works against the whole cast as far as I'm aware. If an opponent ever misses a tech or your force them to slip off a platform you can jab lockwith ftilt/jab to force them to stand up neutrally and then uptilt, or just do what Kronos did and just walk up and mega upper them while they're down.

That point blank metal blade throw seemed really reliable for it, but I'm a litle surprised his opponent failed to tech after it twice.

Good game, Kronos that was some stellar play.

 

[Kronos2560]

I know this is the matchup thread but would you mind explaining the jab lock that you did there. Which chars it works on, how to start it, and if it can be broken out of?

Mega's big weakness is getting kills and that made it look easy.

Yeah definitely, I've been wanting to reveal this for a while.

Megaman's jablock is one of his strongest pieces of tech, and while it can be teched by an aware player 90 percent of the time, it's a guaranteed kill if they don't. Hurl is a decent player, but I know his tech skill is bad, so I was setting those up in the first game.

If you are holding the metal blade at around 70 percent-90 percent, depending on the character, you'll get a hard/techable knockdown. As soon as you throw the mb, walk forward for one second, then do three f-tilts.

When you get it, they will bounce three times, and give you about 5 seconds to land the shoryuken, which is actually a guaranteed kill on the entire cast.

Characters it doesn't work on are Bowser, and Zerosuit Samus. Bowser because he doesn't flinch to the lemons, and ZSS because she's literally too thin.

I said 90 percent of the time, because the metal blade is pretty easy to spot, so they HAVE to tech it, or they die. It goes give you a tech chance opportunity, which is also good.

But not all of it is techable/easy to tech. If you get a flimsy bair off of a platform, and quickly jab behind you, it's guaranteed.

Also, a single hit on the mb, like I got on Hurl, is a bit trickier to tech, so hitting it closer is nice. You can also get it from a Zdrop, or a downward throw, which are also harder to tech.

The last set up I'm aware of that can kill is a soft hit on the fair, which you usually do with a fast fall while the sword is out. The angle it sends them out is insanely thin, kinda like sonics down throw, and makes it very hard to tech. Since you do the weaker version, you get to ftilt as soon as you land, but this is harder to pull off. However, it does work at higher percents.

Hope this helps. Blademaster had it right, but I wanted to elaborate further. There are characters like Luigi and Ness that are harder to do it on because they're floaties, but it's definitely valuable tech.

PS: Sorry if I derailed the thread, I am still here to work on the Wario MU.

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm still struggling against speedsters. Sometimes I can hold my own, but characters like Fox just overwhelm me. He can chain so many attacks on reaction to any tilt, grab, or dash with no real commitment. Pikachu is also annoying, and it feels like the only time I really get an opening is when the player loses control of his speed and makes a spacing error.

 

[Jehtt]

@ K Kronos2560 I played a Wario for a bit at a local on Saturday (probably the same one you were at). I see what you mean about sealing the kills.

Something I find very useful is that the Metal Blade instantly knocks him off of the bike, so it is hardly an issue in that matchup. You can even pick up the bike and use it against him!
Also, if you ever force Wario into a situation where he must use his Up-B to recover, it is very easy to hit him with Dair.
I also remember hitting him off the bike with Bair, at one point.

There are also things about the MU that you just have to know in general. It took me a while to adjust to how much range his bite had. It's a great tool to catch you off guard, especially if he comes at you from above, so be wary of it at all times.

 

[Kronos2560]

@ K Kronos2560 I played a Wario for a bit at a local on Saturday (probably the same one you were at). I see what you mean about sealing the kills.

Something I find very useful is that the Metal Blade instantly knocks him off of the bike, so it is hardly an issue in that matchup. You can even pick up the bike and use it against him!
Also, if you ever force Wario into a situation where he must use his Up-B to recover, it is very easy to hit him with Dair.
I also remember hitting him off the bike with Bair, at one point.

There are also things about the MU that you just have to know in general. It took me a while to adjust to how much range his bite had. It's a great tool to catch you off guard, especially if he comes at you from above, so be wary of it at all times.

Hey! I do remember you! You had the Megaman hat!

Yeah I'm trying to find ways to get wario in his recovery, and I'm thinking that if I ever see his bike on the ground, I can throw it up and make it bounce so I can force him to approach me.

Also, I know shiek destroys him because she suffocates him offensively, so I'm thinking of ways to apply that mentality with Megaman.

 

[Blade Knight]

Vs. Wario you can make use of the Bike to cover all of his ledge get up options. Grab the bike and throw it upwards, then stand one roll distance away from the ledge. If he rolls on you get a free (charged?) Up/Forward/Down Smash of he stands up neutrally he gets hit by the bike, if he jumps or get up attacks the same thing happens. If he waits out the Bike's bounce his ledge invuln is over and you can hard knuckle him.

This issue here is a good Wario will never leave his Bike on stage except to set up ledge play. I'm really not sure on how to improve our pressure in this matchup except consistant lemons and blades. Maybe tossing out dtilts could help, I think dtilt would beat out bite since your legs are intangible during it.

 

[Taokaka]

I have a hard time against the link mu D: they hit hard.

Has link already been discussed?

 

[Blade Knight]

He was discussed in the main matchup thread just this past week!
http://smashboards.com/threads/zero...-thread-link-you-got-the-thing.371407/page-11

 

[Mike_Tha_Hero]

Any help against Villager?

 

[CopShowGuy]

Metal Blades and Crash Bomb work well if he hides behind his tree. Your projectiles also can destroy his rocket. If he pockets your Metal Blade, it won't stop you from throwing more. Just don't throw out fsmashes (and maybe Leaf Shield) if his pocket is empty.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

This is usually a long match. Villager will get beaten by us if he tries to projectile spam but it can be difficult to get a kill move on him.

His balloons really protect him from gimps. Try not to let him get close, the further the better for this matchup.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Any help with the matchup?

I fought a good one for the first time the other day and it was giving me trouble mainly because I haven't ever experienced one that was good.

I had trouble getting caught in the little minion things that explode, and I was really surprised by the speed.

It seemed the more I went in towards bowser jr the better it was and the further away I was it made it harder. Any tips?

 

[CopShowGuy]

My crew has a regular Jr. player. He loves to use the car which pellets stop. If a Mecha Koopa is on the stage, you have to keep mind of where it is. Either pick it up if you're far away enough or get away from it (preferably away from Jr. as well). From there, you can projectile your way back in.

 

[~Burst~]

Just f smash them, they will blow up.
Jr is one match up I think its viable to use f smash consistently. Trading bowling ball with charge shot isn't too bad for us either.

 

[ScAtt77]

Yeah definitely, I've been wanting to reveal this for a while.

Megaman's jablock is one of his strongest pieces of tech, and while it can be teched by an aware player 90 percent of the time, it's a guaranteed kill if they don't. Hurl is a decent player, but I know his tech skill is bad, so I was setting those up in the first game.

If you are holding the metal blade at around 70 percent-90 percent, depending on the character, you'll get a hard/techable knockdown. As soon as you throw the mb, walk forward for one second, then do three f-tilts.

When you get it, they will bounce three times, and give you about 5 seconds to land the shoryuken, which is actually a guaranteed kill on the entire cast.

Characters it doesn't work on are Bowser, and Zerosuit Samus. Bowser because he doesn't flinch to the lemons, and ZSS because she's literally too thin.

I said 90 percent of the time, because the metal blade is pretty easy to spot, so they HAVE to tech it, or they die. It goes give you a tech chance opportunity, which is also good.

But not all of it is techable/easy to tech. If you get a flimsy bair off of a platform, and quickly jab behind you, it's guaranteed.

Also, a single hit on the mb, like I got on Hurl, is a bit trickier to tech, so hitting it closer is nice. You can also get it from a Zdrop, or a downward throw, which are also harder to tech.

The last set up I'm aware of that can kill is a soft hit on the fair, which you usually do with a fast fall while the sword is out. The angle it sends them out is insanely thin, kinda like sonics down throw, and makes it very hard to tech. Since you do the weaker version, you get to ftilt as soon as you land, but this is harder to pull off. However, it does work at higher percents.

Hope this helps. Blademaster had it right, but I wanted to elaborate further. There are characters like Luigi and Ness that are harder to do it on because they're floaties, but it's definitely valuable tech.

PS: Sorry if I derailed the thread, I am still here to work on the Wario MU.

I can confirm that this as well; around 90-100%, most of the cast can be killed from sourspot f-air to jab lock. To add on, I've been fiddling around with sourspot d-air and it actually has a similar effect at lower percents (around 40-50% on most of the cast) and can easily lead to free d-smashes. Usually, this set up won't kill, but it tacks on a ton of damage.

 

[Kronos2560]

I can confirm that this as well; around 90-100%, most of the cast can be killed from sourspot f-air to jab lock. To add on, I've been fiddling around with sourspot d-air and it actually has a similar effect at lower percents (around 40-50% on most of the cast) and can easily lead to free d-smashes. Usually, this set up won't kill, but it tacks on a ton of damage.

Dude! I totally know what setup you mean, and I've messed around with it a lot. You can actually kill with it, but it take a bit of execution.

I kinda want to make a jablock tutorial for Megaman, so I can show everyone what I mean, I just need to figure out how.

 

[Lebrawlski]

I kinda want to make a jablock tutorial for Megaman, so I can show everyone what I mean, I just need to figure out how.

Please do make a tutorial video. I've been trying to get the jab lock to up tilt combo down and been having issues setting it up. I understand the concept, and can land it in the lab, but have problems setting it up playing against other people.

 

[Shin Chie]

Has Sonic been discussed in the MU thread yet? I'm having trouble with this one :S

 

[ChopperDave]

Has Sonic been discussed in the MU thread yet? I'm having trouble with this one :S

It was discussed in the other, more structured MU thread.

Basically, the advice is lemons, lemons, and more lemons. Lemons all day e'ry day. Leaf shield works pretty well too, occasionally. Lemon salad?

Sonic generally struggles to win the neutral when you space him with lemons and leaves, as he doesn't have a lot of good approach options that will beat them. He's also fairly easy to gimp with his vertical recovery.

In my experience, it ends up being a pretty boring match for both players. Sonic is just really annoying to fight against and encourages spammy playstyles.

 

[CopShowGuy]

If Sonic turns into a ball, shoot him.

 

[Sorichuudo]

If Sonic turns into a ball, shoot him.

This has to go on the write-up for the Sonic MU when it get's done. Like, in the first paragraph.

 

[Tornado_Man]

Any of you guys have tips for MM vs Sheik? My friends and I are doing sort of a practice-tourney and I'm not good with the MU

 

[Jehtt]

I asked DKWill about Sheik after I played his Sheik on stream. IDK how to link to times on twitch streams, but it's here at around 2:38:30. http://www.twitch.tv/dkwill/b/635799494
In case you don't want to watch it (or can't), I'll type it here.

Me: Got any advice for me in that MU, Will?

DKWill: You had the right idea. What you want to do is you want to stay close to me, and condition my shields with your metal blade, because even... even if... alright, obviously if you hit me with the metal blade you get a follow up, but you also just want to keep me scared in my shield. If you stay close within a certain zone, since Mega Man's dash grab is so good, that's what you have to use to catch Sheik the most. And you were getting a lot of grabs but I kinda just started trying to evade you and stay outside of your zone, using needles. So if you can stay close to Sheik, but in like a midrange zoning space, in that space her needles are no longer safe. If you're just close enough to be able to block the needles, but too close to me so that I can't get away... I have a lot of lag after needles, so if you're able to block them, you can run up and grab me for free. So you wanna stay in kind of a mid, not close, range because Sheik obviously has the upper hand in a kinda melee combat situation. Stay in like a mid-zoney kinda range, because that's where Metal Blades have their hit confirms and you'll get follow ups. Obviously, your side b (Note: I was using the Danger Wrap) is a really good option to keep me out because I have to respect that move. Yeah, midrange definitely.

(small pause)

It's all about making Sheik have to think twice about throwing needles at you because it's not safe unless you're super far away.

Me: Stay mid-range, condition the shield, punish with the grab?

DKWill: Absolutely. And then, if you start getting them scared enough, that when you do condition the shield and they think you're going to grab, that's when you can start mind-gaming people because then if you start reading habits, like if they're spot dodging because they think you're going to grab, and you barely get there in time, you can punish with u-tilt... but that's another story. Also, you can punish my grabs with up tilts too because there is no grab armor in this game. If you ever see me just run at you and go for a grab, don't be afraid to up tilt. If you see me dashing at you and committing for it, but that's more for once you have a good read on my neutral game.

(small pause)

Also, tomahawking (empty short hopping) is very useful with mega man because aerial movement is so good, you can short hop with your neutral airs, conditioning my shield... you know how you can do the neutral airs and, like, cancel them? You can short hop and do that, and once I'm blocking, just stop neutral airing and start falling in. I'll think you're going to fall in with the strong hit of neutral air but you can grab instead. It's like 50/50, you can fall in with either sweet spot neutral air or grab, and I literally have to guess.

 

[Gombi]

I would like to know what are Megaman strenght and weakness and what are is known bad MU? Anybody can make me a small resume please ?

 

[Locke 06]

Random update: did some fsmash vs Mario stuff.

At the right range, you can charge the fsmash and make Mario try and guess when you are going to release it. Since the charge animation starts on f10, your fsmash is now hits 10 frames after you release the charge + travel time. Risky AF, but so satisfying and wonderful. Many Marios will cape on reaction to your fsmash animation, so you can take advantage of that. If they shield, the time it takes to shield drop>cape is too much time for you to get in your charge shot, allowing you to get a safe hit on shield (spaced properly so you don't get punished by dash grab/attack)

Works as an edge guard too.

Basically... You're threading the needle. I wouldn't try it consistently, but it's definitely something you can do vs (Dr.) Mario and a nice way to generate hype.

Also, fun note: Mario's sourspot BAir at 0% is unsafe on hit and should be punished with utilt.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I would like to know what are Megaman strenght and weakness and what are is known bad MU? Anybody can make me a small resume please ?

We're still trying to figure out who is bad for Mega Man. I think Wario and Sheik (sometimes) are bad for him. Lucario can be a pain as well.

Other people may think other characters are bad for him. We're discussing all of the matchups slowly in the matchup thread.

 

[Locke 06]

Rosa boards are having the Mega Man discussion for a few days. Participation encouraged.

http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-match-up-analysis-vs-mega-man.380230/page-21#post-18824677

 

[ForteX]

I don't know that there's been much discussion about it, but I feel like I have a hard time against slightly competent Pikachu. Maybe I underestimated him since I went into the match just sort of expecting Pikachu to be trash but I didn't even manage a stock off of the guy, which never happens to me outside of stupidly laggy online play. The Pikachu matchup thread seems to be pretty determined that the matchup is in MegaMan's favor and I'm just not feeling it; I really hate to think that our skill levels were just that far apart, especially considering I did better against him with my Shulk who I rarely practice and have barely developed.

So basically, what's MegaMan's best option vs Pikachu? It doesn't seem like MegaMan has reliable options vs Pikachu's small profile and relatively lagless options, especially quick attack spam.

Also just to throw my two cents into the ring regarding awful matchups, I consistently do poorly against ROB, even trashy ones. Maybe I suck.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Most matchups o have trouble with are ones where I haven't ever faced a good (insert character here). The one time you face a good one you get stoned cause I aren't used to their play style. Play more of them and it will feel like a better matchup.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Pika has a surprising amount of trouble with pellet spam. It seems to completely shut down the endless quick attack spam and makes him approach, which is actually fairly hard for him against us.

The real defining problem for pika in the matchup is the Killpower difference. He can't reliably kill us with anything safe until 120 - 140 as long as we DI out of the uthrow thunder combo and tech his stage spikes / avoid the thunder spikes. All that is pretty doable honestly.. I would recommend using upB before double jump.
Meanwhile if he tries to grab a spot dodge, fairs a shield, gets a roll read, etc... Utilt kills him at 70. Heck our bair and bthrow kill him around/before when he starts killing us.

He can certainly put the damage on and has good offensive tools, but it's an uphill battle for him. Think it's solidly in our advantage.

Check zucco vs ESAM on YouTube for a good example of the matchup.

The fact that you're having issues with both him and ROB makes me believe you're overreaching and should be more patient with your zoning and pellet play

 

[ForteX]

I would recommend using upB before double jump.

Almost always do.

I was told by a ROB main once that they can't deal with the lemons, and I've had a little success. Just not something that occurred to me with Pikachu. I'll give it a try, and yeah, I tend play a little aggressive every now and again.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

The only character that lemons aren't amazing against is bowser

 

[Azazel]

If you are having pacman troubles try to utilt his fire hydrant. Cool stuff happens.

Spoiler

I like how i didn't need to explain anything to get likes. this is fro those too lazy to try it yourself.

1. Utilt is strong enough to launch it in one hit.
2. It sends it at the optimal angle, a little off 90 degrees so it bounces up and down but also slightly forwards, to to create an amazing wall
3. Utilt just as it shoots water, it doesn't matter if it is horizontal or a vertical water stream, so as Utilt is safe, since it launches megaman high up negating the lag from Utilt and you're protectyed from juggles becausre of the hydrant
4. IF pacman lays down the hydrant shield pressure (Fair > hydrant shenanigans) invincibility frames and stuff
5. Faster than Dsmash

 

[ChopperDave]

How do you guys deal with egg spammy Yoshis?

Lately I've been running into Yoshi players online who will short hop backward then send a low-angled egg at me ad nauseum.

I feel like I don't have a lot of great options here. I can't jump over the egg in time, and it usually catches me if I try to spot dodge or run dodge/backwards. Nair won't cancel it out due to the angle. Fair is unreliable and leaves me open to counterattack. Walking forward and powershielding seems OK, but then the Yoshi does his stupid nair -> jab crap when I get too close. Trying to run under him and usmash sometimes works but often just results in him egging or double jumping again and then punishing me.

It's getting pretty damned frustrating to deal with. At least with spammy Links I know how to deal with them.

 

[Drippy]

I asked DKWill about Sheik after I played his Sheik on stream. IDK how to link to times on twitch streams, but it's here at around 2:38:30. http://www.twitch.tv/dkwill/b/635799494
In case you don't want to watch it (or can't), I'll type it here.

I know your post is kind of old but this was really informative, especially considering Sheik is one of my worse characters to go against as any character and DKWill seems like a really swell guy. I definitely have to check him out.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Pit help anyone?

 

[CopShowGuy]

How do you guys deal with egg spammy Yoshis?

Lately I've been running into Yoshi players online who will short hop backward then send a low-angled egg at me ad nauseum.

I feel like I don't have a lot of great options here. I can't jump over the egg in time, and it usually catches me if I try to spot dodge or run dodge/backwards. Nair won't cancel it out due to the angle. Fair is unreliable and leaves me open to counterattack. Walking forward and powershielding seems OK, but then the Yoshi does his stupid nair -> jab crap when I get too close. Trying to run under him and usmash sometimes works but often just results in him egging or double jumping again and then punishing me.

It's getting pretty damned frustrating to deal with. At least with spammy Links I know how to deal with them.

Slide under? Shield until you can get in range to do some of Mega Man's better moves?