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General Legend of Zelda Rep Support Thread

Darklink46

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yeah itll be really curious to see where the story in botw2 goes what with him having comes so close and having recovered from being a mindless force of destructiom
Ganondorf in BotW2: Decoys!!!, Fools!!! DECOYS!!! *maniacal laughter*
 
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YoshiandToad

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All this talk of Ganondorf being potentially a good guy makes me think of the recent Cadence of Hyrule game where we have a young Ganondorf enjoying playing an organ and slowly becoming interested in power.

...there's plot spoilers for the rest of the G man's inclusion in the game so I won't go into it, but there's definitely some potential for Ganondorf to be a good person free from Ganon's evil influence.
 

fogbadge

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All this talk of Ganondorf being potentially a good guy makes me think of the recent Cadence of Hyrule game where we have a young Ganondorf enjoying playing an organ and slowly becoming interested in power.

...there's plot spoilers for the rest of the G man's inclusion in the game so I won't go into it, but there's definitely some potential for Ganondorf to be a good person free from Ganon's evil influence.
again ganon ganondorf same person, is incarnation of hate, cant be good
 

YoshiandToad

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again ganon ganondorf same person, is incarnation of hate, cant be good
I always thought Ganondorf was the humanoid vessel for Ganon, and that Ganon possessed his body but wasn't actually the same person as Dorf, hence why even Ganondorf had a moment of solemness during the Wind Waker finale.

Easiest comparison I can think of is Ganon's the Nine Tailed Fox and Dorf is Naruto. Technically two beings in one body but not the same person? At least that's how I interpretated it but it seems to flip flop a lot since sometimes Ganon is a demonic pig and sometimes a man and sometimes a big shadowy monstrosity or a phantom...

But there's this picture from Breath of the Wild which is probably where the majority of the sudden 'Good Guy Ganondorf' theory comes from:
0 xtBkRwr3KO0YGU0D.jpeg

"Link" here has red hair and an elongated nose...which are Gerudo traits. Since Zelda is blonde in the pic I can see why people think maybe that's Dorf fighting Calamity Ganon in Cass/Impa's scroll instead of Link.

Since Dorf's body is a mummified corpse when it reels into life and yet Calamity Ganon was still active during the first game before being eradicated there may be some prescedence for the two being seperate entities.

Whether Dorf is capable of being truly good or his insatiable lust for power will always overcome him is up for debate but I just can't see regular ol demon Ganon showing the same sort of mild compassion he briefly displayed in Wind Waker.
 

fogbadge

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I always thought Ganondorf was the humanoid vessel for Ganon, and that Ganon possessed his body but wasn't actually the same person as Dorf, hence why even Ganondorf had a moment of solemness during the Wind Waker finale.

Easiest comparison I can think of is Ganon's the Nine Tailed Fox and Dorf is Naruto. Technically two beings in one body but not the same person? At least that's how I interpretated it but it seems to flip flop a lot since sometimes Ganon is a demonic pig and sometimes a man and sometimes a big shadowy monstrosity or a phantom...

But there's this picture from Breath of the Wild which is probably where the majority of the sudden 'Good Guy Ganondorf' theory comes from:
View attachment 232793
"Link" here has red hair and an elongated nose...which are Gerudo traits. Since Zelda is blonde in the pic I can see why people think maybe that's Dorf fighting Calamity Ganon in Cass/Impa's scroll instead of Link.

Since Dorf's body is a mummified corpse when it reels into life and yet Calamity Ganon was still active during the first game before being eradicated there may be some prescedence for the two being seperate entities.

Whether Dorf is capable of being truly good or his insatiable lust for power will always overcome him is up for debate but I just can't see regular ol demon Ganon showing the same sort of mild compassion he briefly displayed in Wind Waker.
no ganon only exists cause ganon turned into him, its not like our confusion with the toad, ganon and ganondorf are the same person (at least as much as all the links are) ganondorf was born from demise's hate, ganondorf turned into ganon

theres to many unknown factors to make these theories and after years of making ganondorf out as the king of evil, the dark lord, the demon king i just dont see nintendo turning him good, its not like with dedede whos not actually evil or bowser and eggman who are part of lighter franchises

ganondorf is coming back and he'll be just as evil as he always is
 

Darklink46

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no ganon only exists cause ganon turned into him, its not like our confusion with the toad, ganon and ganondorf are the same person (at least as much as all the links are) ganondorf was born from demise's hate, ganondorf turned into ganon
Yeah, that’s exactly right. They are most definitely one and the same. Ganondorf first became Ganon in OoT using the triforce of power to become the strongest being he could.

"Link" here has red hair and an elongated nose...which are Gerudo traits. Since Zelda is blonde in the pic I can see why people think maybe that's Dorf fighting Calamity Ganon in Cass/Impa's scroll instead of Link
Now, there’s are too many unknowns about this. One big theory is that that Link was actually of the Zonai race. Or possibly wearing Zonai armour. The barbarian armour itself seems very reminiscent of Ganon (flaming red hair, skull with boar-like tusks). Added to the fact that the armour was made by “a warlike race” from the Faron region (I think that how it’s described in BotW), also that all the pieces of the armour are found in the Zonai labyrinths. One theory I’ve heard is that could be that the Zonai revered Ganon (thus why the armour bears similarities). However, it could also be that the hero during Calamity Ganon’s 1st appearance wore this armour, or was possibly one of the Zonai himself. I personally think this theory is gaining ground based on the abundance of Zonai ruins appearing in the BotW 2 teaser.
 

fogbadge

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Yeah, that’s exactly right. They are most definitely one and the same. Ganondorf first became Ganon in OoT using the triforce of power to become the strongest being he could.



Now, there’s are too many unknowns about this. One big theory is that that Link was actually of the Zonai race. Or possibly wearing Zonai armour. The barbarian armour itself seems very reminiscent of Ganon (flaming red hair, skull with boar-like tusks). Added to the fact that the armour was made by “a warlike race” from the Faron region (I think that how it’s described in BotW), also that all the pieces of the armour are found in the Zonai labyrinths. One theory I’ve heard is that could be that the Zonai revered Ganon (thus why the armour bears similarities). However, it could also be that the hero during Calamity Ganon’s 1st appearance wore this armour, or was possibly one of the Zonai himself. I personally think this theory is gaining ground based on the abundance of Zonai ruins appearing in the BotW 2 teaser.
well we dont know anything about who or what the zonai were to be fair
 

Darklink46

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well we dont know anything about who or what the zonai were to be fair
That’s why I hastened to state it was only a theory. Without more information (likely not until the next title at least), it will remain just a theory. On the other hand I don’t know if there’s any more information on the Zonai in Hyrule Historia? One of these days, I’ll actually get around to looking at that series of books.

I do think that there are some solid ideas about the Zonai: Chiefly that they resided in the Faron region (as by the large abundance of Zonai ruins there). It’s also possible that the people of Lurelin Village are descendants of the Zonai. I didn’t notice this myself but the Zonai labyrinth’s have a design sort of like a magatama in the stone work. This same symbol appears in Lurelin Village as well. I’m not saying this proves anything but it’s interesting and could prove persuasive, when placed with other evidence like the Barbarian Armour.
 

fogbadge

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That’s why I hastened to state it was only a theory. Without more information (likely not until the next title at least), it will remain just a theory. On the other hand I don’t know if there’s any more information on the Zonai in Hyrule Historia? One of these days, I’ll actually get around to looking at that series of books.

I do think that there are some solid ideas about the Zonai: Chiefly that they resided in the Faron region (as by the large abundance of Zonai ruins there). It’s also possible that the people of Lurelin Village are descendants of the Zonai. I didn’t notice this myself but the Zonai labyrinth’s have a design sort of like a magatama in the stone work. This same symbol appears in Lurelin Village as well. I’m not saying this proves anything but it’s interesting and could prove persuasive, when placed with other evidence like the Barbarian Armour.
botw is the first mention of the zonai, though it could be a corruption of something that has been in the series before like the zuna as corrupted names are all over hyrule
 

Darklink46

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So anyways guys (and gals). What are your hopes for the sequel to BotW?

My personal hopes are an improvement to three core aspects I felt were lacking, having been so prominent in previous entries.

(1) Dungeons: I know that with the shrines, there was a ton of puzzle solving in BotW. However, I personally feel the core dungeons were a bit of a letdown. I’m probably being unreasonable but I was honestly expecting many locked doors, more variety of enemies to fight (floating stal heads weren’t enough to me) and the bosses to be more unique. I will definitely say the dlc dungeon had the best boss by far.

(2) Music: Now I know this topic is quite divisive. I think while it was a nice idea, using a more ambient soundtrack, I feel there were less situations you felt were either impactful or I didn’t really feel any empathy. I always felt the best thing about the music in previous games was that the music fit the area so you could almost predict your environment based on the soundtrack: it made you feel that you were there in that scenario. Also, I was a little saddened that classic tunes from previous games were either cut short or not particularly noticeable. Don’t get me wrong, I liked the idea of the slowed Song of Time but I think the original was better. My personal favourite tune from the Zelda series has got to be Ganon’s tower from OoT. There was just something so ominous about that theme, you could tell you were slowly climbing to face the final boss, the big bad himself. I feel TP Hyrule Castle was next best, because it started almost melancholy and then transformed into Ganon’s tower theme the closer you got to the final fight. In my opinion, Hyrule Castle in BotW had some of the best music in the gam. It just fell short of my expectations. Like, every time Ganon’s theme began to play, it felt like: “Oh here we go” only for it to cut off after a few notes. It just felt a little anticlimactic for the lead up to fighting Ganon, at least compared to other Zelda games.

(3) Characters: I felt like the main characters you were meant to connect with were either dead (the champions, making them harder to work with) or their descendants. I personally only connected with Riju as her situation was very real with her worries about being the Gerudo chief at such a young age, etc. Outside of the key characters, the characters often just seemed quite bland, like the NPC’s you met out and about, were pretty generic and I ended up feeling is it worth saving them from bokoblins for the umpteenth time?

(Bonus) Enemies: Again, don’t get me wrong, the enemies in BotW were great. It was just that I felt they needed more variety. I guess they were having time/memory restraints but after maybe an hour or two, I felt I was always encountering the same enemies. I hope if they reuse the world from BotW, they’ll have time to add some more enemy types, like maybe Wallmasters, Redeads, Darknuts, etc. Thinking on it, the combat could do with a little more depth, like with Twilight Princess’ hidden skills. I often felt I relied too heavily on flurry rush and fighting the enemies was similar apart from a few (lynels, octoroks and wizzrobes for example) that I never really experimented with alternatives.

Again I’m keen to point out, these are all personal opinions. If you feel the same way, cool and even if not, that’s fine as well.

What things do you think they could improve upon after BotW? I’d love to hear other ideas/opinions!

(Amendment) Items: While the items included in BotW were fun to use, I think there could have been more of them, again. A Sheikah slate version of the hookshot could have been cool, especially with the climbing mechanic. Imagine climbing Dark Beast Ganon to reach a point you’d previously weakened with light arrows, a hookshot would give you a much needed height advantage. I think I preferred ALBW items simply for the variety. Perhaps they could have some more item shrines in the starting area in the next game?

Finally, I forgot to mention something definitely needs to be done about the weapon durability mechanic. Possibly a Skyrimesque forging/reforming system. There was a big stigma every time you came across a new weapon as you knew within a few hits - especially on silver and possibly gold enemies (I can’t comment on gold ones as I haven’t tried Master Mode yet) - they’d be lost to you pretty quickly.
 
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Darklink46

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my love for the zelda series mean ill be happy no matter what we get
I think I would have agreed prior to BotW. I’ve always love the series but just felt this time around, they changed maybe a bit too much too fast and as a result, it ended up feeling less like Zelda and more like a new IP with Zelda characters...

I mean I just think something must be off for me with BotW. I’ve played almost every Zelda game to date (except the original four swords or the anniversary edition as I didn’t buy a 3DS early on. WHY NINTENDO WON’T YOU LET ME PAY MONEY TO GET IT?!) and I’ve loved and become attached to all of them in different ways. I didn’t even mind the linearity so much in SS. Then BotW comes along and that attachment just hasn’t manifest. It makes me sad that this series which is only slightly older than I am suddenly lost that...

Like I say though, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you enjoyed BotW, awesome. I enjoyed bits of it but definitely not for the reasons I fell in love with the series.

I’ve got another question to pose: what was your first experience with The Legend of Zelda? I can still remember mine clear as day: I was 8 years old and my brother was round at his friends. I went with my mum to pick my brother up and went into his friend’s bedroom and found his friend fighting the King of Evil in Ganon’s tower at the end of OoT. I loved the effects even though I had no idea what was going on.

So, the next day, I started at a new junior school and met my best friend, who had also just started there. I told him about watching Zelda on the N64 and that I thought it looked amazing and I was tempted to go buy an N64 to try it. Anywho, the next day, my best friend comes into school and says “oh you remember that Zelda game you were talking about? Well I went out and got an N64 and OoT last night”. I won’t deny I was kind of thinking “wise guy ehh?!” I ended up dragging my mum all over our local shopping centre hunting for an N64 and Zelda and I’ve never looked back lol. It’s such a nice nostalgic feeling thinking about it...
 

fogbadge

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I think I would have agreed prior to BotW. I’ve always love the series but just felt this time around, they changed maybe a bit too much too fast and as a result, it ended up feeling less like Zelda and more like a new IP with Zelda characters...

I mean I just think something must be off for me with BotW. I’ve played almost every Zelda game to date (except the original four swords or the anniversary edition as I didn’t buy a 3DS early on. WHY NINTENDO WON’T YOU LET ME PAY MONEY TO GET IT?!) and I’ve loved and become attached to all of them in different ways. I didn’t even mind the linearity so much in SS. Then BotW comes along and that attachment just hasn’t manifest. It makes me sad that this series which is only slightly older than I am suddenly lost that...

Like I say though, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you enjoyed BotW, awesome. I enjoyed bits of it but definitely not for the reasons I fell in love with the series.

I’ve got another question to pose: what was your first experience with The Legend of Zelda? I can still remember mine clear as day: I was 8 years old and my brother was round at his friends. I went with my mum to pick my brother up and went into his friend’s bedroom and found his friend fighting the King of Evil in Ganon’s tower at the end of OoT. I loved the effects even though I had no idea what was going on.

So, the next day, I started at a new junior school and met my best friend, who had also just started there. I told him about watching Zelda on the N64 and that I thought it looked amazing and I was tempted to go buy an N64 to try it. Anywho, the next day, my best friend comes into school and says “oh you remember that Zelda game you were talking about? Well I went out and got an N64 and OoT last night”. I won’t deny I was kind of thinking “wise guy ehh?!” I ended up dragging my mum all over our local shopping centre hunting for an N64 and Zelda and I’ve never looked back lol. It’s such a nice nostalgic feeling thinking about it...
the whole point of botw was that it was mean to be different from most zeldas

my first experience with the series was oot back in the day though we never got our own copy until the version that came with wind waker

what in the world is a junior school?
 

Darklink46

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the whole point of botw was that it was mean to be different from most zeldas

my first experience with the series was oot back in the day though we never got our own copy until the version that came with wind waker

what in the world is a junior school?
I understand that, but I still felt that the original Zelda (which they were aiming for I think) did a better job with dungeons/bosses, etc. I thought that ALBW was actually the best Zelda to date as it avoided all the linearity of SS and gave you a wide arsenal of items. They definitely nailed the exploration part of the world, but it did start to become a bit monotonous when you either found a shrine, an enemy camp or a korok. I think it just didn’t suit my tastes. I’m looking forward to the sequel, especially if they improve the dungeons and music as those were my main gripes with BotW.

Lol, I live in the UK. We start at nursery school, then move up to primary or junior school, then secondary school, then college and university.
 

fogbadge

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I understand that, but I still felt that the original Zelda (which they were aiming for I think) did a better job with dungeons/bosses, etc. I thought that ALBW was actually the best Zelda to date as it avoided all the linearity of SS and gave you a wide arsenal of items. They definitely nailed the exploration part of the world, but it did start to become a bit monotonous when you either found a shrine, an enemy camp or a korok. I think it just didn’t suit my tastes. I’m looking forward to the sequel, especially if they improve the dungeons and music as those were my main gripes with BotW.

Lol, I live in the UK. We start at nursery school, then move up to primary or junior school, then secondary school, then college and university.
i live in the uk as well and i have never heard primary school referred to as junior school
 

Darklink46

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i live in the uk as well and i have never heard primary school referred to as junior school
Huh, guess you learn something new every day! :p

As an added bonus: secondary can also be referred to as senior school.
 
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hustler713

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This is how I’ve always viewed the cycle. Ganondorf/Ganon was created by Demise. As he states: An incarnation of his hatred. I don’t think it just happened to choose Ganondorf. I don’t think he would exist if not for Demise, but that’s just my opinion.

Personally, I don’t like how Ganondorf/Ganon was basically rewritten durin the last few moments of SS. I kind of liked the idea that the gods of Hyrule were kind of playing a game with the triforce trio as the main pieces they had chosen and seeing how things play out.

There are instances where he does seem to be a bit less selfish (such as in Wind Waker, apparently wishing to give relief to his people in a barren desert), but even then when the triforce is complete, he seems to revert back to being obsessed with gaining power and dominion. I mean, he wishes: GIVE HYRULE TO ME! If he could genuinely be a good person, wouldn’t he ask for something like quench the drought/desert that plagues the Gerudo people?

I just can’t see any way he could reincarnate as a good guy (at least not without making things very messy story wise). I suppose the only way for that to happen would be if Demise’s curse was broken while Ganondorf was still alive (and even then, that wouldn’t guarantee he’d change). If it happened after Ganondorf’s destruction in any game, he would never reappear again as that’s the effect of the curse isn’t it?
I absolutely don't get why ganon is the pure hatred of demise and not a host and why no other hosts should exists.

First of all there is evidence towards Ganondorf having actual motives rather than just salvaging around. Take a look at tww.
Secondly demise talks about an incarnation of his hatred haunting the other triforce bearers forever. We've seen exactly one incarnation of this: Ganondorf. Born probably somewhere around the time of the hylian Civil War, or maybe one or two decades or so earlier, surviving the events of oot up until Alttp/TP/Tww.
I don't get where people get that he is the ONLY host for Demises hatred. I absolutely don't get why vaati is never discussed to be another host of Demises hatred, preceeding ganon.

As i take it, the calamity ganon shown in Botw is the pure Form of Demises hatred, that actually built himself an artificial body to serve as a host. Ganon or other villains only serve as hosts as long as those live. Possibly they are picked as hosts because they do have actual motivations for goals that at least partially align with those of Demises hatred.
 

fogbadge

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I absolutely don't get why ganon is the pure hatred of demise and not a host and why no other hosts should exists.

First of all there is evidence towards Ganondorf having actual motives rather than just salvaging around. Take a look at tww.
Secondly demise talks about an incarnation of his hatred haunting the other triforce bearers forever. We've seen exactly one incarnation of this: Ganondorf. Born probably somewhere around the time of the hylian Civil War, or maybe one or two decades or so earlier, surviving the events of oot up until Alttp/TP/Tww.
I don't get where people get that he is the ONLY host for Demises hatred. I absolutely don't get why vaati is never discussed to be another host of Demises hatred, preceeding ganon.

As i take it, the calamity ganon shown in Botw is the pure Form of Demises hatred, that actually built himself an artificial body to serve as a host. Ganon or other villains only serve as hosts as long as those live. Possibly they are picked as hosts because they do have actual motivations for goals that at least partially align with those of Demises hatred.
well based on the time line ganon and vaati exist at the same time so that would the hate moving from vaati while hes still alive and based on your own reasoning that wouldnt work as vaati doesnt die until long after ganon is both born and killed

based on the timing of it all, the hatred could have become malldalus (unlikely as he was supposedly around before wind waker)nin the adult timeline, the new ganon in the child time line and in the down fall timeline its the same ganon be revived over and over

more to the point its said an incarnation of hatred not just the hate itself therefore itd be ganon reincarnating into someone else therefore any of the villains alive at the same time or working to revive him could not be one
 
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Darklink46

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I don't get where people get that he is the ONLY host for Demises hatred. I absolutely don't get why vaati is never discuss
The thing is, I don’t think it’s correct to consider Ganondorf a “host”. He IS the incarnation of Demise’s hatred, created by the curse. As fogbadge fogbadge has said it’s debatable that the other villains could be seen as having anything to do with the curse as they either exist at the same time as Ganon, or are simply there trying to revive him and hence bring the curse down on the Link and Zelda of the time.

Another point is that there has never been another wielded of the triforce of power (I know Zelda has had the complete triforce on some occasions but I think that’s different). However Ganondorf with the triforce of power completes the cycle of hero/princess triforce of courage/wisdom wielders. Hence, it makes sense that he is the creation of Demise’s curse, as he constantly returns to cause trouble for the other two.

I think if the word “incarnation” wasn’t used explicitly by Demise, you might have had a point. As Demise stated in his curse an incarnation of my hatred will torment your descendants forever so it certainly sounds like the same being tormenting them forever. If he’d said a new incarnation of my hatred will be born every cycle or something but he doesn’t.

The other problem is that Ganon/Ganondorf has been properly killed on multiple occasions (ALttP Ganon, WW Ganondorf and possibly TP Ganondorf, although I’m wondering if he did die if BotW 2’s Ganondorf turns out to be the same one). Yet he always finds a way to return and continue that which he was created for: tormenting the hero and princess’ descendants.

I see what you mean about WW Ganondorf coming across as less selfish but I still maintain that as soon as the triforce is more or less dangled in front of him, he seems to forget all that and goes straight back to his desire to rule the world. I would point out that if he really cared about the Gerudo, why didn’t he bring any of them about the Great Sea when he broke his seal. I do wonder if his speech on top of his tower in WW was possibly to lull Link into letting his guard down...

I did see this some years back: https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/105053 I think it’s the closest I’ve seen to a good Ganondorf, although he still have some dark moments. Anyway, it made me laugh. Maybe all of us who can’t see Ganondorf/Ganon being good are all just paranoid like Link in that video lol.
 
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Impa4Smash

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Give me Impa or give me death...or Skull Kid. One of those two things.

Bonus points if Impa is inspired by Hyrule Warriors.
 
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fogbadge

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The other problem is that Ganon/Ganondorf has been properly killed on multiple occasions (ALttP Ganon, WW Ganondorf and possibly TP Ganondorf, although I’m wondering if he did die if BotW 2’s Ganondorf turns out to be the same one). Yet he always finds a way to return and continue that which he was created for: tormenting the hero and princess’ descendants.
strictly speaking if it is the child timeline itd be the incarnation from four swords adventures as it would likely be the last ganondorf there was, and he is the only incarnation whos death we have not scene

then again the body could be any incarnation's for all we know
 
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Darklink46

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strictly speaking if it is the adult timeline itd be the incarnation from four swords adventures as it would likely be the last ganondorf there was, and he is the only incarnation whos death we have not scene

then again the body could be any incarnation's for all we know
Isn’t the FSA timeline the child era? I’m looking at the official page from Hyrule Historia. It certainly says return of Ganondorf after TP.

It seems that within the downfall timeline and the adult timeline Ganondorf is dead (for the time being at least as resurrection is most likely still possible). I’m not sure with Ganon that death is necessarily permanent in any timeline, perhaps in the adult timeline where he is swept under the sea with the rest of Hyrule and the triforce does not seem to be around any more in PH or ST.

I think the fact that Malladus is called the Demon King only helps to confuse matters as it was originally Ganondorf’s title I believe?

I’m going with two reasons that BotW 2’s Ganondorf is the one from TP. (I may be wrong buts it’s the best theory based on the current evidence). Firstly, the positioning of the disembodied hand holding him down seems too well placed in the centre of his chest, a la his wound from the sage’s sword in TP. Also the fact that the only three eras Zelda refers to during Link’s inauguration as Hyrule’s champion are “whether skyward bound (SS) adrift in time (OoT) or steeped in the glowing embers of twilight (TP)” may lend credence to this idea. While it seems the official timeline doesn’t put BotW within any of the three arcs after OoT, (currently being separated from all timelines but still at the end), the in game evidence points towards the child timeline making the most sense.

I don’t think BotW 2’s Ganondorf could be the same one from the downfall timeline at least because he seems to have permanently become Ganon, unless he decides to revert back to his human form, I guess. Perhaps it takes place between TP and FSA, thereby avoiding the mess of FSA Ganon being different from the original.

So apparently, according Hyrule Historia, Ganondorf could still be the same one from OoT, it’s just that he’s a reincarnation. Every other Ganondorf/Ganon is literally THE original from OoT. Also Vaati appears before Ganondorf even exists so if there was any chance Vaati was an incarnation of Demise, one would assume that they couldn’t then both exist in FSA... Plus if Vaati was the creation of Demise’s curse, it would seem odd for Ganondorf to be created in the first place.

Sorry if I’m repeating myself or have mixed anything up, spent a while on this post lol.
 
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fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
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Messages
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Isn’t the FSA timeline the child era? I’m looking at the official page from Hyrule Historia. It certainly says return of Ganondorf after TP.

It seems that within the downfall timeline and the adult timeline Ganondorf is dead (for the time being at least as resurrection is most likely still possible). I’m not sure with Ganon that death is necessarily permanent in any timeline, perhaps in the adult timeline where he is swept under the sea with the rest of Hyrule and the triforce does not seem to be around any more in PH or ST.

I think the fact that Malladus is called the Demon King only helps to confuse matters as it was originally Ganondorf’s title I believe?

I’m going with two reasons that BotW 2’s Ganondorf is the one from TP. (I may be wrong buts it’s the best theory based on the current evidence). Firstly, the positioning of the disembodied hand holding him down seems too well placed in the centre of his chest, a la his wound from the sage’s sword in TP. Also the fact that the only three eras Zelda refers to during Link’s inauguration as Hyrule’s champion are “whether skyward bound (SS) adrift in time (OoT) or steeped in the glowing embers of twilight (TP)” may lend credence to this idea. While it seems the official timeline doesn’t put BotW within any of the three arcs after OoT, (currently being separated from all timelines but still at the end), the in game evidence points towards the child timeline making the most sense.

I don’t think BotW 2’s Ganondorf could be the same one from the downfall timeline at least because he seems to have permanently become Ganon, unless he decides to revert back to his human form, I guess. Perhaps it takes place between TP and FSA, thereby avoiding the mess of FSA Ganon being different from the original.

So apparently, according Hyrule Historia, Ganondorf could still be the same one from OoT, it’s just that he’s a reincarnation. Every other Ganondorf/Ganon is literally THE original from OoT. Also Vaati appears before Ganondorf even exists so if there was any chance Vaati was an incarnation of Demise, one would assume that they couldn’t then both exist in FSA... Plus if Vaati was the creation of Demise’s curse, it would seem odd for Ganondorf to be created in the first place.

Sorry if I’m repeating myself or have mixed anything up, spent a while on this post lol.
you are right it is part of the child timeline i have corrected my mistake, cant believe i did that

those reasons do stand, but dialogue in game suggested that the four sword one was a reincarnation rather than a resurrection like in the downfall timeline which would mean the tp one had died, it is worth noting in the scene while the champions are talking zelda references games from other branches of the timeline which are apparently clearer in other languages, i think nintendo wanted it to work as the end for any branch

those are just the points i was making about ganon an vaati , they cant both be demise's hate

the one i think the ganondorf in the trailer most looks like is the hyrule warriors (its the hair) my thinking is it could be entirely new
 

Darklink46

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
83
you are right it is part of the child timeline i have corrected my mistake, cant believe i did that

those reasons do stand, but dialogue in game suggested that the four sword one was a reincarnation rather than a resurrection like in the downfall timeline which would mean the tp one had died, it is worth noting in the scene while the champions are talking zelda references games from other branches of the timeline which are apparently clearer in other languages, i think nintendo wanted it to work as the end for any branch

those are just the points i was making about ganon an vaati , they cant both be demise's hate

the one i think the ganondorf in the trailer most looks like is the hyrule warriors (its the hair) my thinking is it could be entirely new
I wonder if the FSA Ganon could technically be included as OoT Ganon as I get reincarnation would suggest he returned as something different, but he still reappeared as Ganondorf and then became Ganon (after finding a new trident I think?) which sounds more like resurrection. Although with some research, you can still appear to be the “same” being in reincarnation where your spirit retains all the memories of your former selves but otherwise, you are starting anew.

Wow, I’ve never looked into any of the cutscenes to that much detail. If it’s true that she references other timelines, then of course it makes more sense for BotW to be at the end of all the timelines. I have to though that I remain to be convinced on that front. Just looked back on that scene and tried very hard to listen to the background Zelda. I heard mention of the Master Sword’s forging many years ago and perhaps a mention of the goddess Hylia but couldn’t catch anything else. I think it would make more sense if they just came out with obvious nods to each of the timelines. By making the twilight mention more prominent, it leads people like me (perhaps foolishly) to possibly incorrect conclusions.

I was just agreeing with you on the Vaati/Ganondorf coexistence thing: They indeed can’t both be Demise’s incarnation of hatred. I was mainly referring to hustler713 hustler713 and his ideas.

Agreed as well that Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf is the closest match to BotW 2 Ganondorf, although his hair could just be so long because he’s been under Hyrule castle for an immense passage of time. I’m wondering if he’s been almost mummified (like the Sheikah monks in BotW). So his body is preserved and possibly his hair grows at a reduced rate (pretty sure if he’s been there for over 10,000 years, his hair would have grown even longer lol).

I actually think that HW Ganondorf is probably my favourite design since OoT. They nailed Ganondorf to perfection in that game. I just wish I felt the same way about Ganondorf in smash...
 

PhantomShab

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
1,211
Name some of these supposed many flaws in curious
-The horrible weapon durability that absolutely nobody asked for, even the freaking Master Sword breaks.
-Can't even repair or upgrade weapons despite there being multiple types of ore and a blacksmith.
-No real dungeons, just shrines and animal shaped shrines.
-Nothing to do or see aside from shrines, koroks, and enemy camps.
-The awful horse controls.
-Being able to climb every single little thing like Spider-Man trivializes any sort of challenge the level design could pose.
-The weather system doing nothing but adding annoyance and tedium.
-Stepping back from Skyward Sword's real-time healing with being able to pause the game and pound down a king's feast at a moment's notice.
-The lack of enemy variety.
-The lack of overworld boss variety.
-The lack of regular boss variety.
-Rewards are predictable and unexciting since all the essential permanent items are gotten in the tutorial area.
-Just about all of the sidequests are literal genuine fetch quests.
-Underwhelming soundtrack especially for a Zelda game.
-Tons of content locked behind amiibos, including Epona.
-The DLC having content that was blatantly held back from the base game.
-Late game enemies are bigger damage sponges than MMO raid bosses while environmental damage doesn't scale to compensate for this.

I really could name more if I actually thought about it for longer but I'm just gonna stop here. In my opinion BotW threw out so much of Zelda's identity that it could have been it's own ip and I doubt most people would have figured it for a Zelda game. It falls into so many of the typical traps that open world games fall into just with added wacky physics. After all the years of anticipating this game and putting up with the delays and the annoying lack of news leading up to it's release, to say I was disappointed when this was what it all amounted to would be a massive understatement. I'm not really hopeful for even half of my gripes to be fixed since the first game was showered with nothing but praise and called the best game ever made.

Not interested in having a big debate about this if that's what you were trying to bait me into. Just giving you a list of my main problems with the game. Disagree with them if you want I guess.
 
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fogbadge

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Messages
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I wonder if the FSA Ganon could technically be included as OoT Ganon as I get reincarnation would suggest he returned as something different, but he still reappeared as Ganondorf and then became Ganon (after finding a new trident I think?) which sounds more like resurrection. Although with some research, you can still appear to be the “same” being in reincarnation where your spirit retains all the memories of your former selves but otherwise, you are starting anew.

Wow, I’ve never looked into any of the cutscenes to that much detail. If it’s true that she references other timelines, then of course it makes more sense for BotW to be at the end of all the timelines. I have to though that I remain to be convinced on that front. Just looked back on that scene and tried very hard to listen to the background Zelda. I heard mention of the Master Sword’s forging many years ago and perhaps a mention of the goddess Hylia but couldn’t catch anything else. I think it would make more sense if they just came out with obvious nods to each of the timelines. By making the twilight mention more prominent, it leads people like me (perhaps foolishly) to possibly incorrect conclusions.

I was just agreeing with you on the Vaati/Ganondorf coexistence thing: They indeed can’t both be Demise’s incarnation of hatred. I was mainly referring to hustler713 hustler713 and his ideas.

Agreed as well that Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf is the closest match to BotW 2 Ganondorf, although his hair could just be so long because he’s been under Hyrule castle for an immense passage of time. I’m wondering if he’s been almost mummified (like the Sheikah monks in BotW). So his body is preserved and possibly his hair grows at a reduced rate (pretty sure if he’s been there for over 10,000 years, his hair would have grown even longer lol).

I actually think that HW Ganondorf is probably my favourite design since OoT. They nailed Ganondorf to perfection in that game. I just wish I felt the same way about Ganondorf in smash...
i guess they left it pretty open in fsa

i think we all made those assumptions until we saw someone on the internet point it out

i know, i was agreeing with you agreeing with me

-The horrible weapon durability that absolutely nobody asked for, even the freaking Master Sword breaks.
-Can't even repair or upgrade weapons despite there being multiple types of ore and a blacksmith.
-No real dungeons, just shrines and animal shaped shrines.
-Nothing to do aside from shrines, koroks, and enemy camps.
-The awful horse controls.
-Being able to climb every single little thing like Spider-Man trivializes any sort of challenge the level design could pose.
-The weather system doing nothing but adding annoyance and tedium.
-Stepping back from Skyward Sword's real-time healing with being able to pause the game and pound down a king's feast at a moment's notice.
-The lack of enemy variety.
-The lack of overworld boss variety.
-The lack of regular boss variety.
-Rewards are predictable and unexciting since all the essential permanent items are gotten in the tutorial area.
-Just about all of the sidequests are literal genuine fetch quests.
-Underwhelming soundtrack especially for a Zelda game.
-Tons of content locked behind amiibos, including Epona.
-The DLC having content that was blatantly held back from the base game.
-Late game enemies are bigger damage sponges than MMO raid bosses while environmental damage doesn't scale to compensate for this.

I really could name more if I actually thought about it for longer but I'm just gonna stop here. In my opinion BotW threw out so much of Zelda's identity that it could have been it's own ip and I doubt most people would have figured it for a Zelda game. It falls into so many of the typical traps that open world games fall into just with added wacky physics. After all the years of anticipating this game and putting up with the delays and the annoying lack of news leading up to it's release, to say I was disappointed when this was what it all amounted to would be a massive understatement. I'm not really hopeful for even half of my gripes to be fixed since the first game was showered with nothing but praised and called the best game ever made.

Not interested in having a big debate about this if that's what you were trying to bait me into. Just giving you a list of my main problems with the game. Disagree with them if you want I guess.
you dont get that botw was supposed to be different from the others do you?

also the whole "nobody asked for" thing is in itself ridiculous in general, did anyone ask for, a zelda set on an ocean, link turning into a wolf, a tarin, a large collection of masks, riding a bird. the whole thing doesnt make sense cause "nobody asked" for the zelda series in the first place
 
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CodakTheWarrior

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2017
Messages
548
-The horrible weapon durability that absolutely nobody asked for, even the freaking Master Sword breaks.
-Can't even repair or upgrade weapons despite there being multiple types of ore and a blacksmith.
-No real dungeons, just shrines and animal shaped shrines.
-Nothing to do aside from shrines, koroks, and enemy camps.
-The awful horse controls.
-Being able to climb every single little thing like Spider-Man trivializes any sort of challenge the level design could pose.
-The weather system doing nothing but adding annoyance and tedium.
-Stepping back from Skyward Sword's real-time healing with being able to pause the game and pound down a king's feast at a moment's notice.
-The lack of enemy variety.
-The lack of overworld boss variety.
-The lack of regular boss variety.
-Rewards are predictable and unexciting since all the essential permanent items are gotten in the tutorial area.
-Just about all of the sidequests are literal genuine fetch quests.
-Underwhelming soundtrack especially for a Zelda game.
-Tons of content locked behind amiibos, including Epona.
-The DLC having content that was blatantly held back from the base game.
-Late game enemies are bigger damage sponges than MMO raid bosses while environmental damage doesn't scale to compensate for this.

I really could name more if I actually thought about it for longer but I'm just gonna stop here. In my opinion BotW threw out so much of Zelda's identity that it could have been it's own ip and I doubt most people would have figured it for a Zelda game. It falls into so many of the typical traps that open world games fall into just with added wacky physics. After all the years of anticipating this game and putting up with the delays and the annoying lack of news leading up to it's release, to say I was disappointed when this was what it all amounted to would be a massive understatement. I'm not really hopeful for even half of my gripes to be fixed since the first game was showered with nothing but praise and called the best game ever made.

Not interested in having a big debate about this if that's what you were trying to bait me into. Just giving you a list of my main problems with the game. Disagree with them if you want I guess.
Hmm I definitely do agree with some of the points you make here, but I think the very nature of BotW means some people will REALLY like it, such as myself and probably many others here, but others will really NOT like it, such as in your case, and as such I can’t argue with you on an opinion, the things you listed are almost all positives imo but negatives for you so it’s all subjective
 

Darklink46

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
83
Sorry, something went wrong with my internet and I ended up double posting. Can anyone explain how to delete a post? I tried editing to this message but couldn’t leave it blank...
 
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Darklink46

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
83
I get it but I feel they went way past overboard with making it different.
While I do agree that there were a lot of changes very suddenly, I think that’s what Nintendo were trying for. There had definitely been complaints about SS and it’s linearity and the fact the game model hadn’t changed since OoT.

On the other hand, I personally think they reworked the formula well enough in ALBW, while still keeping the core aspects of the series people have come to love.

I definitely agree with you about the lacking music. I’ve been to Symphony of the Goddesses for about 5 years running (it seems to have gone on permanent hiatus now, which is a shame) and the last time I went, they included some BotW music and none of it seemed memorable to me, especially to the levels of OoT, WW or TP. My friend turned round and freaked saying: “oh wow Revali’s theme is so good!” I can’t deny, I honestly turned round and said “Wait, the champions had their own themes?!” I felt that because they tried to much for the ambient music effect, when there were pieces that were supposed to be more engaging or impactful, you didn’t necessarily notice them.

One thing I think Koji Kondo would have done better: So we have 4 or 5 different types of Talus overworld boss: Normal, Luminous, Rare, Frost and Igneo Talus. Now I can’t understand why the battle theme doesn’t change (even subtly) to represent the different versions. I mean, Koji Kondo always said Zelda was his favourite franchise to work on because he tried hard to help the players invoke certain feelings in certain situations. I always felt even if you hadn’t played a particular Zelda game but heard the music, you could take a reasonable guess as to the area/location a certain piece of music was played in. This seems to have nearly gone completely out the window with BotW. In my honest opinion, the best tracks from BotW are the recycled ones from earlier games, like Zora’s Domain or Rito Village. I was quite upset they didn’t reuse Gerudo Valley (the number of people who freak out when the do that for an encore at Symphony of the Goddesses). As for Goron City, I always felt the song invoked the feelings of strength, but also kind of slow pondering, whereas BotW’s version sounded just slow, overweight (if that makes any sense) and clumsy, like the Gorons don’t have any positive traits...

Now I do agree with some of PhantomShab PhantomShab problems with BotW. I still have memories years ago that the developers said something like: The first dungeon we created was bigger than OoT’s Hyrule field and I did end up wondering did that one get cut out (unless it was Hyrule Castle). The dungeons would have been a lot better in my opinion if they were more a mix of Hyrule Castle and the Divine Beats, both puzzles AND enemies to fight. More locked doors with keys to gain for successes help the player feel satisfaction that the solved a puzzle or beat a challenging enemy. The fact that every dungeon in BotW boiled down to find a way to point a, touch Sheikah Slate to terminal, rinse and repeat was very disappointing. I spent most of my playthrough hunting shrines, leaving the dungeons as I was really looking forward to expansions on the traditional dungeons of previous games. God, I wish I hadn’t done that now as it was a bit of a recipe for disaster, from a gameplay perspective.

There are definitely things that BotW 2 could improve upon from the original. In my opinion, the story could do with a better way of being told that the memory system. Also characters shouldn’t have to be fleshed out dlc, that sort of thing should happen in the meta game. It seems so weird that I spent over 100 hours playing BotW and yet the whole story boiled down to about 30 minutes...

Some of your other improvements ring true for me as well, but I did like the climbing mechanic (although why it wasn’t used in the final Ganon fight beggars belief, as it was such a prominent feature). I actually thought the horse controls worked fine, more the horse combat was useless (unless that’s what you meant?) basically every time I enter 5 or 6 bokoblins on horseback, I got tired of being perfect shorted by arrows while Link jabbed ineffectually in the wrong direction more often than not. So I just got off my horse and threw bombs at them. Again considering how often you ride your horse around Hyrule, that seems a shame that the combat was a bit dodgy.

I’m a sucker for the amino (still trying to complete my Zelda collection) so locking things behind them doesn’t bother me so much but I understand why it would bother some, especially with key things like Epona and one of Link’s green tunics hidden behind them.
 

fogbadge

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Messages
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Scotland
I get it but I feel they went way past overboard with making it different.
well its what they wanted and was something theyd been trying to do since around ss time, but regardless ill doubt theyll abandon they more traditional format all together

I’m a sucker for the amino (still trying to complete my Zelda collection)
i know that feeling, though ive managed to complete my zelda collection
 

ZelDan

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
3,303
Location
New Hampshire
I do agree with many of PhantomShab's complaints. I had a decent time with BotW, but I didn't find it an amazing game like others did and it's nowhere near my favorite Zelda game. I honestly wish they went with a smaller overworld in BotW, so that way they maybe could have put more focus on variety, better quests, better quest rewards, etc.

I do hope they do adress some of the issues people had with BotW, and don't just give us a very similar game because of teh insane amount of praise BotW got. I have some hope they'll change things up quite a bit with BotW2 even despite BotW's acclaim and sales, because beforehand Nintendo generally has changed up the console Zelda titles. MM was quite different from OoT, WW was pretty different from the N64 Zeldas, SS did some pretty different things as well (whether you liked them or not was another story). The only "samey" console Zelda has been maybe Twilight Princess, but even that did enough to have it's own identity and not feel THAT similar IMO.
 

PhantomShab

Banned via Warnings
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Sep 11, 2014
Messages
1,211
I actually thought the horse controls worked fine, more the horse combat was useless (unless that’s what you meant?)
I meant the actual horse controls. They were made for only auto-following the pathways and it really shows when you try to control them yourself. They refused to move over surfaces if they were elevated by even an inch and would refuse to jump fences half the time even if I went at it head on. Not to mention they have a ridiculously slow and wide turning radius. Ocarina of Time had less clunky horse controls than this.

That horse racing mini-game with the time limit was what I now imagine hell must be like.
 
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Darklink46

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
83
I meant the actual horse controls. They were made for only auto-following the pathways and it really shows when you try to control them yourself. They refused to move over surfaces if they were elevated by even an inch and would refuse to jump fences half the time even if I went at it head on. Not to mention they have a ridiculously slow and wide turning radius. Ocarina of Time had less clunky horse controls than this.

That horse racing mini-game with the time limit was what I now imagine hell must be like.
Are you sure it wasn’t some bug with the joycon (as it’s quite a common thing)? I never really had any trouble guiding my horse around. Sure there were times the horse wouldn’t jump something but that was no different to OoT if you approached an obstacle at a slightly different angle other than exactly perpendicular. I actually think TP had the best horse riding just because the combat worked as well as some base improvements to OoT’s horse riding (like being able to stop and turn 180 degrees).

They did explain that when travelling at speed the turning rate would be much slower and wider but normally, I thought it was ok? I’m not denying you haven’t had problems, just telling you my experiences, as you told me yours.

Oh and my imagination of hell in BotW was the mini golf shrine as you got that even slightly off angle with stasis and the hitting the balls was so inconsistent. I know several people who lost many weapons to complete that shrine...
 

Darklink46

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
83
I do agree with many of PhantomShab's complaints. I had a decent time with BotW, but I didn't find it an amazing game like others did and it's nowhere near my favorite Zelda game. I honestly wish they went with a smaller overworld in BotW, so that way they maybe could have put more focus on variety, better quests, better quest rewards, etc.
I agree it’s definitely nowhere near my favourite Zelda game. It took too many of the best things about the series and removed them, to the point it didn’t really feel like Zelda anymore. I’ve played every game in the series bar Four Swords and never felt this way before, so I certainly feel something is off about BotW. Maybe I just had too high expectations? Literally every generation, I’ve played Zelda and Mario core games and felt Zelda actually came out on top: I enjoyed TP better than Mario Galaxy (although they’re both incredible games), OoT to Mario 64. However with BotW, for the first time since starting to play Zelda, I actually enjoyed Mario Odyssey more, because it ADDED new things to the formula WITHOUT taking away traditional/fan favourite aspects.

I do often struggle to comprehend why others say it is the best in the series when I feel it did so many things worse than previous titles. I mean, I hear comparisons with the original Zelda title (the open world, yes, I can see that). But the dungeons were sorely lacking (floating heads are the main enemy that take one hit to die, really?) I would hazard a guess that there was more enemy variety in a NES game, which is a bit depressing. Same goes for boss variety. But then, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I guess it’s just a bit strange as I’m within the minority for a change...

My hope is that if they reuse the world from BotW in this sequel (which seems likely), they’ll use the time not required to create a whole new world to improve on the negative things in BotW: music, dungeons and characters being my main concerns. I still sorely wish they’d asked Koji Kondo to do the soundtrack to BotW. He did some work on Mario Odyssey and I prefer that soundtrack by far, (another first of a Mario game > Zelda game in my opinion), which is even weirder considering he composed music for both series over the years.
 
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