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General ICs Q&A Thread

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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So basically when I grab the ledge, I should input the standard getup (Right/left) immediately as Popo grabs the ledge? Will that make Nana on the ledge while Popo is on stage?
That's after you belay of course. Belay gives a pretty loose window where only one climber can act (that climber being popo)


Regarding the desynch, I'm currently having trouble in desynching quickly. What I'd do is dashdance and then input a command (usually iceblock), which would ultimately desynch the iceclimbers. However, sometimes that method doesn't work and it ends up with both Nana and Popo iceblocking. Are there any other methods to desynch in a quicker, efficient manner?
It means you're using ice shot too late and just need to input ice shot earlier. Pretty common in the two dash desync. There are all kinds of ways to desync with varying startup and space costs. So it sort of depends on what you mean by more efficient. For example, SND is technically faster than two dash dance. Doing an LD1 or LD2 out of an already performed option is faster than 2 dash dancing after you do that option. so it's situational as well.

Also, there is a method where you desynch at the start of the match by pressing the shield button and then inputting a command. For myself, it works sometimes and other times ends up with both Nana and Popo shielding which means the start up desynch had failed. Any tips regarding this please?
Try just holding the special button during the entire countdown through the start of the match and tell me what happens
 

Demna

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That's after you belay of course. Belay gives a pretty loose window where only one climber can act (that climber being popo)
Belay means to secure. After securing the edge a small window will be available where I can input the get-up command to make Popo get up on the stage while Nana is still on the edge. Is this correct?
It means you're using ice shot too late and just need to input ice shot earlier. Pretty common in the two dash desync. There are all kinds of ways to desync with varying startup and space costs. So it sort of depends on what you mean by more efficient. For example, SND is technically faster than two dash dance. Doing an LD1 or LD2 out of an already performed option is faster than 2 dash dancing after you do that option. so it's situational as well.
Can you please further explain the concept of SND, LD1, or LD2? Or can you pinpoint the links that provide the concept of these techniques? I've searched the net and haven't found anything regarding it.
Try just holding the special button during the entire countdown through the start of the match and tell me what happens
Just tested it out and it worked. Thanks.
 

Demna

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Belay is the name of ICs up-special lol
Let's take a hypothetical scenario: Ice climbers use Belay, Nana grabs the edge, Nana pulls Popo and he now grabs the edge. If a get up command was input the moment Popo grabs the edge, he alone will get on the stage while Nana is holding the edge. Is this right?
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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To put it simple: When you upB to the ledge, mash A until Popo moves. Only Popo will perform getup attack while Nana is still stuck on her forced 25 frames of ledgegrab.
 

Demna

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To put it simple: When you upB to the ledge, mash A until Popo moves. Only Popo will perform getup attack while Nana is still stuck on her forced 25 frames of ledgegrab.
By "moves" you mean grabs the ledge? Or is in his path to the ledge?
 

-LzR-

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After he grabs the ledge, then you mash A. By "moves" I mean does some sort of an animation.
 

Demna

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After he grabs the ledge, then you mash A. By "moves" I mean does some sort of an animation.
As soon as Popo performs the get-up animation I should stop mashing A, correct?
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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Yes, exactly. Otherwise Nana will do it too. When you figure it out it's super easy.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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Can Sopo CG Marth without him being able upB out of it? At what % range should this work?
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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According to EA it should work

However, I suspect that having Dthrow be stale (which tends to happen for various reasons) at low percents might make some solo dthrow percents not connect.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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So it means it's very to hard to tell when you can and cannot. So do you suspect it's mostly my timing or that stale issue? I don't think buffering the solo CG is hard at all so I'm guessing it's the latter. It's quite annoying when I try to stall for Nana to catch me so I can convert into a CG and Marth upBs into a platform and eats an uair instead.
 

DeLux

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If I ever feel like I have to play a marth in tournament, I'll frame test it

Since I never have to play a Marth, I'll probably get around to it when I get the chance. I suspect it's a stale move issue though (just based on normally not having issues doing buffered dash grab on other characters and having similar issues with the first dthrow from 0 on MK)
 

DeLux

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Remind me on skype at some point to look into it and/or ask E_Alert lol
 

onlyaaron17

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Spend hours practicing chain grabs each day lol. Al fort I can do a few with drops.... But the thing is when I grab someone in-game my mind like does a panic mode xD and I fail to do the CG. Any tips on that? lol Also, dem wifi-ICS.
 

Demna

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Spend hours practicing chain grabs each day lol. Al fort I can do a few with drops.... But the thing is when I grab someone in-game my mind like does a panic mode xD and I fail to do the CG. Any tips on that? lol Also, dem wifi-ICS.
Just imagine you're chaingrabbing a AI :), or assume that you're gonna drop the chaingrab (when you land your initial grab) and therefore you make the best of it and hopefully converting it to an infinite. However, no one can ultimately help you with your mental state except for you. Practice more and gain confidence, you won't have any troubles after that.
 

onlyaaron17

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Thanks though. Hopefully I can be good at IC before the new SB comes out. IC Better have the chain grab.
 

DeLux

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1. Vary how you practice CGs - (different characters, different stages, different percents, different timings between CG attempts, different places on stage, different TVs)
2. Hack your Wii training mode for stale moves, then practice CGging on CPUs set to run
3. Practice after watching a horror movie that scares the crap out of you and gives you an adrenaline rush to simulate pressure situations
4. Understand why you dropped the grab - spacing and/or timing issues (for example, a common reason people drop is they poorly space a Nana Grab because controlling her via sync delay is abstract)

Be realistic about your goals - If you do a nontripless CG 0-death, you have a higher chance of dropping at least one grab over 6 stocks than not tripping at all. That being said, if you do a tripless CG, being able to successfully CG 9/10 full stocks is actually usually a better conversion rate than the standard tripping CG.
 

EverAlert

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So it means it's very to hard to tell when you can and cannot. So do you suspect it's mostly my timing or that stale issue? I don't think buffering the solo CG is hard at all so I'm guessing it's the latter. It's quite annoying when I try to stall for Nana to catch me so I can convert into a CG and Marth upBs into a platform and eats an uair instead.
I don't really know how much help I can be but hopefully I can provide a few insights.
-- Staleness may or may not affect it from 0 (I never actually tested for staleness permutations, only fresh from 0, although if you want I can do so).
-- IIRC you have to buffer both dash and grab for most (all?) of the regrabs on Marth, merely "well-timed" is not enough.
-- More of a fun fact but IIRC Marth can just jump out instead of dolphin slashing, even on the first escapable throw. Don't tell them that though.

random post yay
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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So Marth is not only really tight on the Dthrow timing, he also has that bull**** upB in his arsenal...
I guess I just gotta make them afraid of using upB at all.
Sometimes people do say that they mashed upB and still failed to escape so I guess it's mostly a staleness issue, buffering the dashgrab is easy so I don't think I'm messing it up that often.
Any kind of help is most welcome.
 

onlyaaron17

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1. Vary how you practice CGs - (different characters, different stages, different percents, different timings between CG attempts, different places on stage, different TVs)
2. Hack your Wii training mode for stale moves, then practice CGging on CPUs set to run
3. Practice after watching a horror movie that scares the crap out of you and gives you an adrenaline rush to simulate pressure situations
4. Understand why you dropped the grab - spacing and/or timing issues (for example, a common reason people drop is they poorly space a Nana Grab because controlling her via sync delay is abstract)

Be realistic about your goals - If you do a nontripless CG 0-death, you have a higher chance of dropping at least one grab over 6 stocks than not tripping at all. That being said, if you do a tripless CG, being able to successfully CG 9/10 full stocks is actually usually a better conversion rate than the standard tripping CG.
1. Vary how you practice CGs - (different characters, different stages, different percents, different timings between CG attempts, different places on stage, different TVs)
2. Hack your Wii training mode for stale moves, then practice CGging on CPUs set to run
3. Practice after watching a horror movie that scares the crap out of you and gives you an adrenaline rush to simulate pressure situations
4. Understand why you dropped the grab - spacing and/or timing issues (for example, a common reason people drop is they poorly space a Nana Grab because controlling her via sync delay is abstract)

Be realistic about your goals - If you do a nontripless CG 0-death, you have a higher chance of dropping at least one grab over 6 stocks than not tripping at all. That being said, if you do a tripless CG, being able to successfully CG 9/10 full stocks is actually usually a better conversion rate than the standard tripping CG.
Thanks a lot for ur input as well as advice. Idk about the horror movie 1, sounds good. Lol people trying to get me to drop ic "cuz its not worth it" ans wifi but i mean i plan to play them offline. But after you learn IC after a while, all the rages you have learning, getting ***** by snake, and always have to hard read camping, etc. lol i feel like its worth it. Its just something about ic and how cuddly they are. Not to note that ive never spent so much time trying to learn a character this much.
 

Z'zgashi

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So I have a question kind of. I remember seeing someone playing ICs vs Toon Link on youtube like, a year or two ago, where the IC player grabbed the Tink, the Tink dropped the bomb he was holding during the CG, so the IC player, mid chain grab, picked up the bomb and threw it away, then continued on with the CG. Ive been searching for that video for about an hour now and cant find it, do any of you happen to know of a video of a tournament match where that happens?
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Try like once every four sets MJG and I played in tournament and never recorded over last two years :p
 

onlyaaron17

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Omg i really love how u can vary tripless cg. And the cg is so lenient as long as u get the kill. This is so amazing! Like for charactere like samus i can "b throw > nana regrab> nana f throw > popo regrab > repeat" but on people like falco its hard to do that but my muscle memory allows me to do "popo f throw> nana regrab> nana back throw> popo turn around regrab" this is so exciting! Now i just have to make sure i dont mess up light char. Vs heavy vs fast fallers, and get this concise to 0-death and i can at least start playing ic competitvely. Also, does anyone know how u can make popo just chase at the start of the game with nana staying put? Is it input iceblock before the game then make popo run?
 

| Big D |

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There's 2 parts to making Popo run and having Nana using an ice block.

1st part is you have to believe in yourself.

2nd part is you must hold b at the end of the timer (or whatever you use for special) causing Nana to ice block and Popo to chase.

If you believe, you will achieve.
 

MegurineLuka

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I'm having trouble linking my bthrow's on characters mid-weight and above. If I tilt it too much , nana runs. If I tilt it just a bit, nana turns around twice (original direction).
How do I make it more consistent? Any tips on the bthrow? Which character should I be practicing on (so far I'm practicing on Lucario)?
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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I'm having trouble linking my bthrow's on characters mid-weight and above.
Oh no, I see trouble brewing. Based on the post (and what most people try to do when they pick up ICs), I'm guessing you're doing a P Bthrow > N Regrab.

If I tilt it too much , nana runs.
You'll need to clarify what you mean here. Does nana connect the regrab, but slides after the dash grab away? Does Nana whiff the grab? Either way, both of those typically happen when you grab slightly in the former situation and extremely late in the latter situation. In most cases, unless you're trying to go tripless (see next section), it's easiest to time it so Nana pivot grabs, which the game will automatically do for you if you simply hit grab earlier in your motions.

If I tilt it just a bit, nana turns around twice (original direction).
This is a documented phenomenon of the soft-turn CG. What is happening is that the sync mechanics force Nana to face the direction Popo faces, and Popo flips directions at some point during the Bthrow animation. The game originally reads Nana is walking a certain direction, but then it realizes Popo flips so Nana now faces the opposite direction, only to recognize later that you're holding the opposite direction from which it flipped you. To alleviate this problem, you can input the bthrow for Popo softly enough so that nana does run, and then let go of the analog stick and let it reneutral since the game will turn Nana around for you without any of your inputs! You can test this by holding shield while trying to CG: it's possible to actually input a Bthrow while tilting nana's shield WITHOUT rolling. Nana will actually remain in shield but switch direction allowing you to shield grab, which is one way to address the constant flipping of direction as well. Be warned though that the lighter the character, the more unviable this method becomes. Some characters "flip of nana" occurs within a couple frames of when you should be grabbing, creating a 50/50 scenario if Nana will even grab in the correct direction.

How do I make it more consistent?
I'd suggest learning to CG in a different method. I'd suggest using one of the tripless variants. If you need a turn around, throw do a P F/Dthrow to Nana Regrab and follow that with a N Bthrow > P turn around and grab. I'd then begin practicing paying attention to both timing AND spacing. Most ICs when they pick up the character think it's only timing, when a majority of grabs dropped at a high level occur because of spacing issues.


Any tips on the bthrow?
TLDR: Do the Bthrow with Nana. Turn around grab with Popo

Which character should I be practicing on (so far I'm practicing on Lucario)?
All of them. I'd practice in frequency of the characters you are going to play against. If you don't have any specific matchups you're facing, I'd practice more on higher tiered characters and bad MU characters. Make sure to practice on ZSS because she never shows up on random and a lot of ICs neglect to do so.
 

MegurineLuka

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Oh, sorry for not being very clear. I cleared it up myself though.
But yes, I was trying to go tripless, and I've overcome the problem. Thanks though!

But, another question. May you list a few desyncs that the average IC would use? So far, I just dash back and forth, and Popo shoots an ice block while Nana becomes desync'd.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Faster desyncs are better (why I like buffered desyncs). Depending on the situation, you want to use as aggressive a desync option as you can without getting hit if you're looking to pressure. You want to use a neutral to defensive desync option if you want to wall out. So like the standard IC tool kit of pivot, SND, and 3 dash dance desync (while easy) isn't very good because they don't cover a whole lot of different scenarios. For example, the 3 dash desync requires high startup and large amounts of space to execute (which can be interrupted at any time by a hitbox), as it's used as an aggressive option. At the same time it's fairly telegraphed compared to the faster two dash dance > Nana Option which less space requirements while not being as telegraphed. SND alone is a pretty quick neutral spacing desync and good to start a wall, but if you combine it with a shield drop you get a more dynamic neutral spacing desyncing option rather than the static popo only option give you more flexible followup options (and allowing for the standard SND > Popo option to serve as a quicker mixup). For the true pivot desync, the obvious issue is it must be done out of dash, so it has strict finite spacing guidelines. If you were to learn how to say, buffer desync out of shield to Nana option, you could adjust your spacing as you see fit defensively augmenting from run > shield cancel, then go to a dynamic desync option.

So TLDR:
The average IC main probably uses bad desyncing options in terms of overall speed of the option as well as spacing requirements :p

But the average IC main tool kit is usually true pivot desync, SND (or Standing Turn around), and 3 dash dance.

Not that they are any good, but it tends to show: what you do while DESYNCED is more important than what you do when you're DESYNCING
 

onlyaaron17

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Delux, whats your skype?!?!! Mine is taisakuno shouri! Ik this is kinda late since new ssb is in a year, but im calling any ics! Im trying to push ic as much as i can until i can at least play them competitvely even further. Basic knowledge or full knowledge..... I feel like withoht everything, theres no point in playing ics and limiting yourself that way. Lol i gotta post why i played ics its legit lol.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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It can be found by seeking, and those who seek will find it.
 

Zaffy

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I'm not an IC main, and I don't intend to be, I was just curious if this was known. I was playing jokily (badly) and my nana started charging a fSmash while Popo wasn't, then i pressed in the opposite direction and nana changed the direction of her forward smash. Is that something IC mains do?
 
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