General ICs Q&A Thread

[1PokeMastr]

Personally I prefer the air.

 

[Hoenn]

I have been thinking about the way we chain grab lately... I was also thinking about any possible way to make SoPo a better character.
When chain grabbing, wouldn't it be better to D-throw -> D-Throw every weightclass, or at least D-throw -> F-throw? (assuming that nana's moves don't unstale popo's)
Plus with the tripless turnaround, Popo won't have to unstale Down throw.

Also, is there a SoPo matchup thread, or something similar?

 

[Sieguest]

I have been thinking about the way we chain grab lately... I was also thinking about any possible way to make SoPo a better character.
When chain grabbing, wouldn't it be better to D-throw -> D-Throw every weightclass, or at least D-throw -> F-throw? (assuming that nana's moves don't unstale popo's)

Half right. Dthrow -> Dthrow just provides for more time to space yourself compared to other throws ( practical exception being Jigglypuff), however you're not going to be near as efficient due to both climbers working off of an eventually stale throw. D-throw -> F-throw is just as viable as D-throw -> any-other-sort-of-throw. Trade offs between efficiency and time for spacing and also factoring in the "in-the-weeds" type stuff as how some character's hurtboxes are placed after being thrown (e.g. Snake and fthrow).

Basically that is to say there's no better way to chaingrab someone than the way that is most comfortable for you. I could throw numbers and scenarios at you all day, but at the end of the day you're just gonna end up doing what works. If you do it right the opponent is dead anyway so it's not like the end result changes any. Granted there are nuances that make some throws way more "friendly" to use on certain character in the roster than others but it still all boils down to preference.

Also, is there a SoPo matchup thread, or something similar?

Used to be (kinda). Although I'm sure that naturally within the "regular" matchup thread there would be at least some SoPo discussion for the matchup (It'd be silly to assume one can keep Nana the whole time when making an objective[I hope/wish] evaluation of a matchup).

 

[Hoenn]

I find that when I lose stage control and end up on the ledge, I almost always lose Nana because I suck in that position.
MK usually gives me the worst time. I know ICs are not the best in this position, but I feel like I'm worse than the rest of you...
Are their any belay desync tricks that help with this or something? I struggle with this very hard...

 

[GOofyGV]

I was wondering, do the climbers moves stale together or not?
Like when I usmash someone with Nana after a cg does popo's Usmash stale as well?

 

[DeLux]

For the longest time, I was under the impression that Nana was always on the same stale move queue as Popo. However, I started doing some in depth testing into the subject, and it opened up this huge can of worms that I closed because it was not worth the brain power required to solve for the answer.

TLDR: Some testing I did awhile ago makes me suspect there might be a random element, so you don't want to ask that question >_>

 

[KAP22714]

Is there a simple quantifiable relationship (e.g. a multiplier) between the knockback/damage for lead climber vs secondary climber? I know that popo's smashes certainly have more knockback so I'm curious

 

[Pheta Ray]

I think finding that formula is something we should leave to whatever becomes Brawl's equivalent of Melee's Mew2King's info dump, if there really is a random element.

 

[KAP22714]

I think if it were easier to hit someone with only your secondary climber, then the damage relationship would be pretty easy to model (assuming there were one). I figure you could just hit someone with your entire moveset from both climbers and then model the relationship between those numbers via some simplistic regression analysis (assuming the SSBB crew didn't go out of their way to make this one relatively useless facet of the game incredibly complicated).

I have no idea how to even measure knockback tho, maybe similarly to above but like measure the screen or something idk

 

[DeLux]

It's actually pretty easy to make only certain moves hit if you use frame advance

Most of my testing came from testing Dthrow, which gave me inconsistent results on damage that didn't seem to apply to the original stale move theory on Nana having whatever staleness Popos queue what set at. Using only Nana to do dthrow repeatedly didn't net the same damage every time for every test, so I'm not sure exactly what the rule is anymore.

 

[KAP22714]

Yo sup DeLux I like your posts you make good posts

How well developed do you think the current ICs desync game is? I feel like ICs could be a better character overall if people got better using desyncs. It just seems so cool to have two characters to control. In theory, shouldn't being desynced be safer than being synced as you always have a second climber to cover the other's options? Then again I've only recently switched over (2 tourneys, Apex will be my third LOL) so I haven't had as much opportunity to experiment with desyncs and so don't know all the difficulties involved in being desynced.

I think that is a sufficient number of questions for now

 

[DeLux]

I honestly think it's very matchup dependent, although I can see where you're coming from.

The reality is there are going to be matchups where characters have tools to really shut down the desync game (MK, ROB, TL immediately come to mind). However, it seems to me from a sort of general point of view, the matchups where ICs CAN'T play desynced because of the various tools are the ones that we outright lose.

But the choices in desyncing it seems like gives the character enough depth where mutually exclusive styles start to present themselves. Those styles are why you see certain ICs have problems with MU's that other ICs excel at it seems like. (Unless you're Vinnie and you're versatile enough to excel at pretty much every MU that isn't Snake).

TLDR: You should probably try to find a happy medium of desyncing somewhere between 2012 Esam and 2012 me, depending on matchups lol

 

[KAP22714]

You said a few characters have the tools to shut down the desync game, what tools are they and how do they shut down the desync game exactly? Mainly MK and ROB, TL sucks idgaf about him

 

[DeLux]

Toon Link might be ICs worst MU imho
Off the characters that beat us or go even:

MK has a billion tools to get through desync walls, mainly Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop
Marth's Fair and dolphin slash can actually disrupt the desync game
Diddy's Bananas if placed well
Snake's Grenades (although this is kind of debatable)
Wario's mobility tends to find holes in the desync wall imo
Zero Suits suit pieces and plasma whip
Wolf can combo shine into jabs, or use Bair if spaced right
Peach's Dair
ROB has Robo Beam
Ike's Fair, kind of

 

[Pheta Ray]

I'm just going to drop some comments in here (I don't have any wins to be saying anything about this, but I saw Ike in here and I just had to comment).

Ike's Fair, kind of

It's the longest-reaching aerial in the game so it goes through Blizzard, which is just shy of hitting Ike's hurtbox (because of Blizzard's hitbox/hurtbox property).

Wolf can combo shine into jabs, or use Bair if spaced right

To be honest I find Fthrow easier to use than hobbling, and when I get to the edge I do a single Bthrow and continue the combo, or I spike him.

Zero Suits suit pieces and plasma whip

ZSS is my nightmare in the IC's matchup while she still has the pieces out on the field. I think it would be helpful to discuss this matchup at some point in time, and maybe test to see if Ice Block can cancel/stop the suit pieces.

 

[DeLux]

Ike's Fair kind of in the context that if you space ice shot chaser's correctly, you can guarantee counter Fair with ice shot > Grab. It's hard to do though lol

 

[KAP22714]

I don't mind ZSS at all, I play with V all the time; I think once you get the item pieces off ICs has a pretty good time in the matchup...

How the **** do you get the item pieces off?? Bad ZSS just throw it at your shield and the items disappear eventually but good ones will like, hit you and stuff

 

[Pheta Ray]

Maybe trying throwing them offstage...? I don't know, it seems to work for me.

(Ignore my sardonic response. )

Believe it or not when I play ZSS I spot dodge and let the item piece go through me. That way I'm standing between her and the item she needs. Of course, this is only true when you're both standing on the ground, and she's not in the air.

 

[KAP22714]

If you're able to spot dodge the item pieces I guarantee you the ZSS you're playing sucks

ZSS has no incentive to throw item pieces at you when you're in a position to be able to spot dodge in any matchup, let alone ICs where the item pieces are such an important tool in the matchup lol. From my experiences ZSS will throw them at you when you've committed to some form of approach that doesn't allow you to shield them, or are jumping for no reason (which I think I do ). How to approach ZSS first stock??

 

[DeLux]

My strategy heavily relies on invoking the sympathy of a higher power and praying to whatever god I believe in at the time.

 

[Pheta Ray]

So does Ice Block stop her item pieces? The priority is awfully high on those things if I remember correctly.

 

[JB IV]

Ike's Fair kind of in the context that if you space ice shot chaser's correctly, you can guarantee counter Fair with ice shot > Grab. It's hard to do though lol

Could you go more in depth into this or link me somewhere?
Is this possible on reaction (practical) or read-only?
Are there any other moves/situations that you would recommend attempting this?

 

[Pheta Ray]

Alright guys I've done some testing. By the looks of it, Ice Block will clash with ZSS's armor pieces. I think the heavy spherical one will go through the block.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I need some tips on my ICs! Mostly de-syncs, I need tips on those. I know chaingrabs, so I'm fine there.
At my tourney there is a 12 grabs in a row rule for chaingrabs. What is the most effective chaingrab to work within those limits?

 

[-LzR-]

Don't go to a tournament with a 12 grab limit.

 

[Pheta Ray]

Why the hell would you even go to a tournament that says that? Go to a tournament that says "stop at 300%" if anything at all.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Don't go to a tournament with a 12 grab limit.

I'm the one that set that rule up, I'm hosting.
It's mostly because there are going to be some unskilled people there, so we put that rule in. But can you answer my question about what chaingrab will give me more bang for my buck?

Dude, when some of the people coming don't know how to get out of a SOPO chaingrab, making an infinite, and ALL of the people coming know me personally, I have to make rules like that so they're not smoked.
This is a tourney for fun for them, but there are some near-pros coming to the tournament, so for me it's serious.
And it's better than banning chaingrabs all together.

 

[DeLux]

P Fthrow > N Grab > N Dthrow > P Grab > P Bthrow > N Footstool > P Ice Shot > Nana Charged Fsmash > P Grab > Repeat

4 Cycles of that ought to put most characters into 0-death range.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Thanks, what are the easiest and most practical ways to de-sync them in Brawl?

P Fthrow > N Grab > N Dthrow > P Grab > P Bthrow > N Footstool > P Ice Shot > Nana Charged Fsmash > P Grab > Repeat

4 Cycles of that ought to put most characters into 0-death range.

.

 

[DeLux]

The easiest desyncs are probably holding a button at startup of the match, getting hit by your opponent enough so they separate the climbers, or grabbing your opponent.

The most practical is debatable on situations.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

The easiest desyncs are probably holding a button at startup of the match, getting hit by your opponent enough so they separate the climbers, or grabbing your opponent.

The most practical is debatable on situations.

What do you mean, "holding a button?"
What about dash-dancing?

 

[KAP22714]

What did ESAM do wrong in Loser's final? y he lose

 

[DeLux]

Just thought I'd leave this here for all you ICs

http://ask.fm/ChaseTheLux

 

[GoblinGamerKid]

I dont post here too often, but I had a quick question on this because I've seen it multiple times now and wondering how to do it.

@5:41 https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6xRvFgrWy84#t=341

How does 9b throw the nade and it just barely goes forward? Thanks!

 

[-LzR-]

Nade strip. When Snake pulls another nade and shields so he drops it, his other nade will also stop and start falling immediately. Search for nade strip in the Snake boards for more info.

 

[XenoXilus]

Small question... I'm new to these forums, and was introduced to SSBB a few months ago.
One problem I have when I attempt to CG is that Nana will often dashgrab, putting Popo too far away to successfully grab again.

This means I'm tilting the control stick too far, right? But the problem then morphs into not even throwing at all if I do not tilt the control stick enough.
Where's the sweet spot? (GC Controller)

 

[DeLux]

Which kind of throw are you doing?

If it's from and fthrow or dthrow, it means you're tapping the control stick too hard and/or you aren't buffering properly

If it's from a bthrow, you're grabbing too late, and grabbing early will fix it.

 

[XenoXilus]

I can regrab the bthrow easily enough.
I haven't tried fthrow much, but have had limited success.
It's mostly with dthrow.
So if I want to chain dthrows, to dthrow do I push the control stick fully down? Or tilt?
What sort of control stick motion am I looking for?

 

[DeLux]

You are looking for the motion that makes you walk consistently.

 

[KAP22714]

Idk if this is a documented phenomenon but I can Fthrow-Fthrow/Fthrow-Bthrow every character without fail on the YI:B platform y

Seriously, it feels as if the platform is putting their hurt box directly into my grab box (perhaps the slant?) Lux pls