General ICs Q&A Thread

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Sentiments of trying their best aside, doesn't change the fact that ICs best in reality was 9th. And our big three were among the favorites to take it all. Still doesn't changed the fact that they were outplaced by ZSS, MK, Marth, and Olimar.

I blame skewed expectations due to the rulesset, but doesn't change the fact people seem to think this character is godlike when they are anything but that.

Still, the IC Gods only lost to MK from my knowledge, and beat every other character. I'll agree that I don't believe ICs are a top 2 character, but they are definitely within the top 10.

 

[DeLux]

Realistically when only 5 characters have won it all at a national, you can see how top 10 is pretty bad

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Realistically when only 5 characters have won it all at a national, you can see how top 10 is pretty bad

Well then I could argue the difficulty level of playing ICs & that in theory, they can win, but in actuality, the tournament pressure, technical skill, and overall skill needed is much higher than those that have already won nationals.

I do think it will happen, just not yet. I mean who thought Salem or a ZSS would ever win an international? Also, just like ZSS, ICs have a low high level player base, so it makes it all the more harder to win. And the fact that 4 players alone(counting Lain) can large regionals with this character says a lot. They just haven't won nationals...yet.

 

[DeLux]

Well then I could argue the difficulty level of playing ICs & that in theory, they can win, but in actuality, the tournament pressure, technical skill, and overall skill needed is much higher than those that have already won nationals.

Anyone can win in theory. Difficulty is relative. The fact they are difficult probably indicates it is harder to play them at this "theoretical level". It also indicates that theory doesn't really matter in reality and they have results consistent with bottom of top tier or top oh high tier

I do think it will happen, just not yet.

When the rulesset changes we'll see an IC win a national. Until then the combination of MK and "I must win game 1" makes it much more unlikely than a lot of more flexible characters, even if they are lower tiered

I mean who thought Salem or a ZSS would ever win an international?

I dropped ICs for ZSS, and have been saying they are like the same character (plus mobility minus Nana) for a long time before Apex

Also, just like ZSS, ICs have a low high level player base, so it makes it all the more harder to win.

I don't understand how this is related to ICs being outplaced by multiple characters at Apex. If you're saying that as far as pushing the character goes, only a handful of ICs even try to do that? Yea I'd agree

And the fact that 4 players alone(counting Lain) can large regionals with this character says a lot.

When's the last time lain won a large regional?

They just haven't won nationals...yet.

Sounds like all the other "barely top tier or top of high tier" characters

Which relatively speaking with how the viability works in Brawl especially MK legal statswise, that's pretty bad

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Anyone can win in theory. Difficulty is relative. The fact they are difficult probably indicates it is harder to play them at this "theoretical level". It also indicates that theory doesn't really matter in reality and they have results consistent with bottom of top tier or top oh high tier

Which is pretty much top 10 like I said


When the rulesset changes we'll see an IC win a national. Until then the combination of MK and "I must win game 1" makes it much more unlikely than a lot of more flexible characters, even if they are lower tiered

The Apex ruleset did not favor ICs, but from what I saw, the ruleset did not seem to have an impact at top level because the ICs players lost to Anti/Otori on neutral stages(YI/SV/BF)

I dropped ICs for ZSS, and have been saying they are like the same character (plus mobility minus Nana) for a long time before Apex

No comment, I guess, Idk ZSS that well, lol.


I don't understand how this is related to ICs being outplaced by multiple characters at Apex. If you're saying that as far as pushing the character goes, only a handful of ICs even try to do that? Yea I'd agree

Basically, IC hasn't been pushed as much as it can be. It's mainly grabs/desyncs. And even the top ICs do not utilize the desyncs that you have made up as well as other useful(but harder to learn) desyncs. They also do use tripless grabs in most cases.

When's the last time lain won a large regional?

Well I was thinking from way back in the days when ICs were just starting out


Sounds like all the other "barely top tier or top of high tier" characters

Which relatively speaking with how the viability works in Brawl especially MK legal statswise, that's pretty bad

Yes, but I wouldn't say it's impossible either though, ZSS/Marth are kinda in that category too, unless I'm mistaken.

Overall, there is still room for improvement in IC play; they are far from being developed to the max. Marth is definitely more developed than IC due to his strong, knowledge player base, as well as dedicated mains. Pierce7d, CJ, Steel, Shaya, Junk, and others have definitely helped shape the Marth metagame, and have helped their players break boundaries as well as other key factors.

ZSS, not soo much, but Snakeee literally invented the base metagame, with Nick Riddle, not being too far behind, and Salem always practicing wifi even back in 08. They've always had dedicated mains and a string of high level/mid level players playing the character.

ICs...like I said, there is room for growth. And I wouldn't give up on them just yet. Delux, you still haven't unveiled your new IC tech, and that could even bee a game changer, who knows?

 

[| Big D |]

Delux, you still haven't unveiled your new IC tech, and that could even bee a game changer, who knows?

I see what's going on here.

That *****

 

[DeLux]

I kind of take exception to that

No offense Gadiel, I think your knowledge of the ICs metagame is limited because the character is pretty developed past the scope of just stuff you can read on the forum. Like half the stuff I've seen you post or we talk about as "new" things I discovered back in early 2011. The ICs have had developers too; I can think of 8 especially that really pushed some really broken stuff out for the character

I know that at the very least I share all of my new stuff almost immediately with a few IC mains that I feel are advanced enough to understand it and are immediately accessible on skype since I bounce things off them for new application ideas. I know Vinnie is the same way with that kind of stuff with me. But a lot of that info is lost on newer ICs that would rather ask about stuff that is super basic that can be answered with, "get a better handle on the character". Saying "there is room for growth" is one thing, but where would you grow them? What developments have you done to push the character to its perceived limit?

But until you can find me a work around for the vulnerability of having a character beneath you that isn't mind gaming your way back to the ground, or fixing Nana AI mechanics on stages, or the fact that they can't powershield from neutral legitimately, or other matchup specfic issues, there are limits to the character. If they weren't limited they'd A. Win more large tournaments and B. be broken beyond saving from ban due to the infinite fear aura

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I mean it is true that I am limited in my knowledge of ICs. I haven't been around long enough, so I don't take any offense. My comp messed up my last response, but what I said was that no ICs really use your desyncs or tripless grabs in all situations. That's a fundamental issue that can definitely change results. 9B is also the most consistent in getting KOs off grabs, and I think that has some correlation on why he does so well. His IC control is extremely good too.

But as far as developments, I haven't done any because I'm still working on the basics w/ this character, and like you said: most is already developed. Tripless grabs & utilizing your desyncs as well as other useful desyncs are the future IMO.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Really, the only reason I can see for Icies being #2 spot is because no other characters are as close to MK theoretically, other than of course Diddy. Diddy actually makes more sense for #2 because he is much, much more consistent overall as a character. Olimar has too many susceptible points and bad has actual counter matchups from Top tiers for it. And the rest of the cast has some big weakness keeping them down as well.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

ICs are overrated.

 

[B0NK]

^^ ^

 

[Deleted member]

This has probably been asked, but I'm having an annoyance with chain grabbing. I have the timings down for each character, and I can easily keep doing them, but I will always have nana **** me up.
So... I grab, back throw to nana, d throw to popo, repeat. When I d throw to popo, Sometimes nana will try and grab along with popo, and when I throw the opponent back they escape because nana is too late to catch them. How do I prevent this?

 

[| Big D |]

Hold shield after popo gets the regrab and then continue with the chain grab once you see Nana shield.

 

[Deleted member]

Thats really annoying... Now I have to watch for the regrab timing and make sure I shield. ****.

 

[| Big D |]

If you're regrabbing with the Z button you can just hold it until you see Nana shield.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay... thank god I can do that. I was about to ragequit playing ICs.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Fthrow to Nana, bthrow to popo. Or dthrow to Nana, bthrow to popo, or fthrow CG is tripless and better to learn, but who am I anyway? I'm just gonna be the best Pit regardless.

 

[Deleted member]

Why does no one ever use F throw anyways? Watching ICs play I never see it. I do think its annoying to use on Metaknight, but it's just never used...

 

[dettadeus]

9B uses it a lot.
I used it a lot at my last tournament as well. It's nice on larger characters.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, I watch alot of Vinnie

 

[SSBBDaisy]

Fthrow easiest tripless cg to do. Its what I do on most chars and then fthrow bthrow to nana and repeat. Its tripless and easier to do then fthrow>bthrow.

Only problem is the temptation to go for the spike when u reach the end of the stage. DON'T DO IT! just don't.

 

[Deleted member]

I think I'll use F throw for some characters where the timings alot easier.
Is it just me or is Metaknight really hard to F throw consistantly? Him and a few others are so much better to just b throw d throw.

 

[DeLux]

MK's hurtbox orientation when F thrown is such that a player must walk farther out with Nana (or Popo if you choose to do constant Fthrow strings) in comparison to other character. For example, you have to walk significantly further to CG MK than you would want to for Zero Suit Samus based on my testing.

As has been stressed for the longest time, spacing is probably just as if not more important than timing when CGing because good spacing can alleviate the need for high specificity in frame windows

 

[swordgard]

I kind of take exception to that

No offense Gadiel, I think your knowledge of the ICs metagame is limited because the character is pretty developed past the scope of just stuff you can read on the forum. Like half the stuff I've seen you post or we talk about as "new" things I discovered back in early 2011. The ICs have had developers too; I can think of 8 especially that really pushed some really broken stuff out for the character

I know that at the very least I share all of my new stuff almost immediately with a few IC mains that I feel are advanced enough to understand it and are immediately accessible on skype since I bounce things off them for new application ideas. I know Vinnie is the same way with that kind of stuff with me. But a lot of that info is lost on newer ICs that would rather ask about stuff that is super basic that can be answered with, "get a better handle on the character". Saying "there is room for growth" is one thing, but where would you grow them? What developments have you done to push the character to its perceived limit?

But until you can find me a work around for the vulnerability of having a character beneath you that isn't mind gaming your way back to the ground, or fixing Nana AI mechanics on stages, or the fact that they can't powershield from neutral legitimately, or other matchup specfic issues, there are limits to the character. If they weren't limited they'd A. Win more large tournaments and B. be broken beyond saving from ban due to the infinite fear aura

It's funny because I feel like everytime I come on these boards and I see "new things" it's stuff that's been mostly known for a while to a few of us (except for a few tricks that you came up with using frame data).

 

[DeLux]

Swordgard, you were and are ahead of your time

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Are the ICs just the CG?
I myself don't use them, but this question came to me because I have a friend who uses them and he himself thinks they're just a CG, and he only really knows the CG against light characters and the lighter middle weights. Since the B-Throw-D-Throw CG is hard to perform against heavy weights, he does the Spike/Footstool/Iceblock "chaingrab" against the heavyweights. I would personally love it if he knew the CG against heavyweights so I can have that -4 with Bowser. What would be the easiest CG in this case (besides the afformentioned footstool "chaingrab")?

 

[Deleted member]

ICs aren't JUST using chain grabs. They have many desync tools, a projectile, decent/good recovery, and Nana is super sexy

 

[DeLux]

Whichever one you are the best at taking stocks with.

 

[B0NK]

Swordgard, you were and are ahead of your time

He really was... rip ;_;

 

[FredFuchs]

recently, i started learning how to use ice climbers and i don't understand how to de sync them. what is the easiest and fastest one to do? also, does it affect the timing for the chain grab? (i'm doing b throw popo> d throw nana)

 

[DeLux]

The fastest desync you can do is a turn around desync which requires a 1 frame input from neutral position directly behind you. Popo will turn around and Nana will dash, making it instant.

The easiest desyncs are tied with getting hit, grabbing someone, or belaying to the ledge

 

[Calvonta]

What should go through your mind when you're in the middle of a chaingrab?

ex: "don't drop it, don't drop it, don't drop it, d-CRAP"

I seem to have problem when it comes to pressuring myself to not drop a grab.

I hope i'm explaining this correctly.

 

[DeLux]

Go watch a horror movie and CG when you get an adrenaline rush and practice CGing like that

Not even kidding

 

[Calvonta]

Go watch a horror movie and CG when you get an adrenaline rush and practice CGing like that

Not even kidding

That sounds. .

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

The fastest desync you can do is a turn around desync which requires a 1 frame input from neutral position directly behind you. Popo will turn around and Nana will dash, making it instant.

The easiest desyncs are tied with getting hit, grabbing someone, or belaying to the ledge

Oh no wonder, I was trying to get this down in my last practice session vs some GA crew peps and I couldn't get this consistent. When I first played ICs during the session, I could do turn-around all the time, but then over time it wasn't consistent. I'll get this down though. Is it just turn-around, then input a desync?

On another note, I can finally CG people to death in friendlies w/out messing up! I went 20-0 in friendlies vs 2 Falcos w/ ICs. Is that supposed to be a favorable matchup or something? It seems a lot easier than w/ Pit.

Also, I need to learn how to do tripless to a high consistency. I can get the b-throw/d-throw, but I don't want to keep using it because it's the sole reason why 9b did not get top 8 or higher @ Apex. First match vs Otori on the 1st stock, he tripped due to the non-tripless CG(which is easier to do) but it cost him momentum and likely the entire match. I don't want to trip in Brawl Grand Finals at an International Event, lol.

 

[DeLux]

I don't know if you could do the actual turn around desync because analog sticks aren't designed to do one frame perfect inputs like I'm describing. You'd have to buffer it out of something

So I'm guessing hyperbole on your part or you're thinking what you were doing was something that it isn't

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I don't know if you could do the actual turn around desync because analog sticks aren't designed to do one frame perfect inputs like I'm describing. You'd have to buffer it out of something

So I'm guessing hyperbole on your part or you're thinking what you were doing was something that it isn't

No, I've seen Nana short dash like your describing. I remember reading somewhere that Pivot and Turn around desync look similar, so it could be the pivot, although I rarely if ever get that down in practice alone. I haven't seen the hylian thread that showed visual gifs of the turn-around in a while, but I'm pretty sure it was that because I specifically remember trying to practice turn-around desync after watching it, and also seeing 9b use them in matches. And also, I noticed that it is just very hard to learn & apply, but I've found out that you have to press the analog very swiftly & slightly and only half the distance of a normal dash.

I could be wrong, and it could be pivot, but I'll just have to get some recent footage and you can judge for yourself.

 

[DeLux]

You'll have to link me to when he does it from neutral, because as far as I know 9B uses an SND derivative to desync, which is 2x the turnarounds as just the turnaround desync I'm describing. Doing slight inputs with the analog stick is usually the start up motion for SND followed by a hard turn around, which is pretty basic in terms of options

It's possible to buffer a turn around desync. Doing it from directly neutral standstill is (nearly) impossible because it takes too long for the analog stick to reneutral as far as I know so unless you have a controller crafted by the dark lord himself I doubt you're doing the turn around desync for the instant desync I'm talking about.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

uhhh. wtf..... I feel like the only thing to understand about this character is press the GRAB button.

 

[FredFuchs]

hey lux (or anyone who can answer me), can you explain to me the input for the reverse initial dash desync? i've tried to do it but it doesn't work for me. when i do get only nana to shoot an ice block, what do i do after that?