General ICs Q&A Thread

[Ken Neth]

Don't pause as long in between throws.

Buffering is inputting the action right before it's actually possible to do it, and it will do it the first frame possible.



Ninja'd

 

[DeLux]

I mean technically speaking, you shouldn't buffer throws by in large on most CGs

What people refer to as "buffering CGs" is the action of inputting a throw for one climber while the other is still in throw cooldown animation. By doing so, the directional inputs (in this case the down analog input to throw) doesn't register to the climber in throw cooldown preventing an action (platform drop through).

Not saying you're wrong Ken Neth and Daisy because that IS the technical definition for buffering. However, the term "buffering CGs" as far as most common CGs goes is a misrepresentation of what's actually occurring since it's not buffering a CG, it's more accurately described as "desyncing your CG". However, that term also has problems because during a CG the climbers are already and always desynced. However, ideally you want to input your CGs early enough in the desynced window where the inputs don't buffer to the climber in cooldown.

Thus why telling someone to CG faster is probably the most technically accurate advice one can give

 

[Ken Neth]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I know you don't buffer chain grabs, I just told him what was meant by going faster and what buffering is. I guess I should have been more clear.

 

[DeLux]

lol no worries
More so trying to correct the common vernacular than anything else

I just recently started carrying about how to describe it because I was teaching someone to IC CG the other day and they kept saying they were buffering it, but could never grabbed. Turns out they WERE actually buffering, but it was the correct definition of buffering and not the *******ized version we have now haha

 

[Ken Neth]

Yeah people unfamiliar to it could get that confused, so it's good to clarify.

Do grab/throws in general have different buffering mechanics (as far as buffering stuff out of them, not buffering a grab after something)? I know a lot of grab release stuff with other characters can't be buffered, you have to do it frame perfect yourself. I'm guessing that there's a difference between grab releasing and throwing though

 

[DeLux]

What characters can't buffer things out of grab release?

I was under the impression buffering can be done out of grab release. I know that's the case for things like Sheik BDacusing out of Air break or ZSS/Marth dashing out of grab release as well.

 

[Hylian]

Things can't be buffered out of grab release, that's why sheiks grab release dacus is hard. Otherwise it would be easy. You can only buffer out of input animations.

 

[-LzR-]

Wow why is that? Isn't there a 30 frame release animation?
So that's why the grab release dash grab on Ness sometimes misses with Peach or MK

 

[SSBBDaisy]

U can buffer peach upsmash out of grab release on wario. but the window is reallly small.

 

[-LzR-]

That's not a buffer and the timing is so easy anyways.

 

[DeLux]

Jordan, I can cite a couple recent frame tests indicating a player can buffer out of grab releases. For example a recent Zss discovery found a guaranteed footstool on MK from Grab Break via buffered dash. I BDACUS when grab releasing MK using Sheik. I don't think it's input specific

 

[-LzR-]

I'll trust Delux with this. He knows his ****.

 

[| Big D |]

Fox can grab release > buffered jump canceled upsmash on Ness similar to DDD's dthrow > buffered jump canceled upsmash.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Jordan, I can cite a couple recent frame tests indicating a player can buffer out of grab releases. For example a recent Zss discovery found a guaranteed footstool on MK from Grab Break via buffered dash. I BDACUS when grab releasing MK using Sheik. I don't think it's input specific

Fox can grab release > buffered jump canceled upsmash on Ness similar to DDD's dthrow > buffered jump canceled upsmash.

Yes Jordan, going off these examples, how can even Marth be able to Spike MK out of grab release, or Fox Upsmash out of MK grab release, etc.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Of course you can buffer things out of grab release, otherwise regrabbing Ness/Lucas of out grab release would pretty much be impossible.

 

[Ken Neth]

Ness/Lucas regrab happens because they have ten more frames of lag out of a grab release, not because of buffering. Technically you could do everything a buffer can if you time it right, and the bigger frame window you have, the easier it is to do. Hence why it's not hard to regrab ness cause you have ten extra frames, which would be about the same frame window as buffering.

Snake's chain grab on falco is so hard cause you only have like a three frame gap before falco could get out of it, if you could buffer it it would make it a lot easier. I've never done any frame testing myself, but that's what I've always heard about grab releases.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Dash grabs are normally 9 frames, so regrabbing them would require frame perfect dashing.

 

[DeLux]

I would think Snake's CG on Falco would be "hard" because you'd have to buffer a DACG, and you don't get as much boost buffering that as you would if you did it meaty with a few more frames between the dash attack and the grab cancel.

Still doesn't rule out buffering out of grab release.

 

[Ken Neth]

You could be right. As I said, I've never done any sort of frame testing or anything. So I can only say what I've always heard, not saying I'm right. Has anyone done frame data on it?

 

[Hylian]

I guess I just suck at buffering out of grab releases then. Also I just mash A when I regrab ness/lucas and it's easy lol.

If you really have a 10+ frame window to buffer a dash out of GR I don't understand why shieks or marths mess up their stuff o.O.

 

[| Big D |]

Because they're bad obvs.

 

[DeLux]

I guess I just suck at buffering out of grab releases then. Also I just mash A when I regrab ness/lucas and it's easy lol.

If you really have a 10+ frame window to buffer a dash out of GR I don't understand why shieks or marths mess up their stuff o.O.

Based on the test I saw from SFP, it appears the window for dashing is 5 frames for one reason or another.

As in if you buffer on frames 1-5 of the window, you'll walk. If you buffer 6-10, you'll dash.

I'll search for that post or maybe it was a skype convo, don't remember which.

Update:

I was actually working specifically with this mechanic today and yesterday, and here's how it works:

The buffer window is 10 frames. If you buffer the dash during frames 1-5, you'll do a walk. If you buffer it between frames 6-10, you'll dash.

The reason people think you have to hit dash twice is because hitting dash twice probably means you're tapping it once again during the second window.

If you want to test this yourself, you can use Dolphin's TAS controls to recreate this exact scenario.

If you're getting a walk you're buffering really early. If you're getting a dash you're waiting a bit longer or mashing the control stick.

Here's some actual data using ZSS' grab release animation.

ZSS can shield on frame 30, so 29 frames where she can't move. On frame 19-23, mashing the control stick means I buffer a walk. From frame 24-29, mashing the control stick buffers a dash.

So the 1-5 5-10 split is probably for 1 frame dash inputs. If you make a 2 frame dash input, it's probably safe for the entire 10 frames.

My guess is Sheik and Marths mess up because they have to react off the grab release window. That's dependent on opponent mashing, so it's harder to hit a larger window you aren't in control of than it is to hit a much narrower window you are in control of. Since mashing takes a bit leading up to it, they might also get in their own head and get nervous.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

That 5 frame dash window is Bull****, btw.

The reason they mess it up is because they don't utilize all 10 frames

DACUS is Dash, dash attack, u-smash. So they have to dash, return the stick to neutral, c-stick up, return to neutral, c-stick up. It's (realistically) 5 inputs in 10 frames, which averages one every two frames, assuming you use the entire buffer window. Not that easy.

 

[DeLux]

I think it's pretty accurate in that in frame advance testing he was probably working with 1 frame controller inputs. I'm relatively certain if you have control stick tapped for 2 frames in any of the 10 frame buffer window you'll dash. I don't think it's humanly or physically possible for a control stick dash length input to occur for only 1 frame because of how long it takes an analog stick to reneutral in the grand scheme of things, otherwise people would be using the turn around desync all day from neutral since it's the fastest. More often than not it has to be buffered, and I think a large reason why is because of the whole not being able to make frame perfect analog inputs. Similar why it's hard to ISSDI without rolling or buffering a grab.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

If it was accurate it would pretty much be impossible to to the buffer dash uair with Pikachu, ESPECIALLY the way I do it...

 

[DeLux]

I'm willing to bet if we took a high speed video camera on your thumb when buffering, your control stick would take more than 1/60th of a second to travel the full throw and return to neutral though

Vids and prove me wrongggggg

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Oh, I misread your last statement. My b.

 

[-LzR-]

For certain lightweights who I consider annoying to Fthrow -> Bthrow I prefer to use Bthrow -> Dthrow. Yeah it trips and stuff but it's much much easier for a few characters so it's worth it. Now starting it is kinda tough.
When I get a grab I can't just wait for Nana and then Bthrow, anyone will mash out with ease. That's why I buffer a Dthrow and do a solo cg for a while, but Nana is still very slow because she is also inputting a grab with Popo so I cannot quickly transfer into a Bthrow which makes then cg very mashable.
So how do I quickly start a Bthrow without being so vulnerable to mashing?

 

[DeLux]

Dthrow > Dthrow > Hobble is a good tripless way to go about it

Otherwise, avoid Bthrowing before like 40% off the dthrow transfer or the top tier mashers are going to make you pay

 

[| Big D |]

I do dthrows until I can bthrow with Nana. It works especially well on heavy weights.

 

[-LzR-]

So I started doing so that when I am solo Dthrowing and Nana is close enough I pass onto Nana and keep on alternating Dthrows. When Nana gives me a regrab again she is free of lag so I can immediately pass a Bthrow to her because she isn't doing anything. I guess it was obvious... Why did I even ask...

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Ok ICs, when I try the popo to nana f-throw, it works fine. But then when I try nana b-throw to popo for the 2nd part of the CG, I never get it. Popo will either walk before I throw w/ Nana, or he'll dash grab, and then Nana will throw and I miss. What am I doing wrong?

 

[dettadeus]

Only buffer the turnaround, don't hold back long enough for popo to start walking. Ideally, Popo shouldn't move at all during fthrow > bthrow.

 

[BlindSpot]

Is there any cg that has the same timing for every/ almost every character? Like, hobbling or fthrow -> fthrow?

Also, what is the easiest 0-death cg?

 

[TheSaintKai]

Is there any cg that has the same timing for every/ almost every character? Like, hobbling or fthrow -> fthrow?

Also, what is the easiest 0-death cg?

F-throw -> f-throw is the only chain grab that has the same timing for every character. However, there are a few characters that are notably difficult to f-throw CG on, namely the Earthbound kids, Ness and Lucas.

It's entirely up to your most preferred and comfortable CG. If you are just learning to CG though, I would recommend either F-throw -> B-throw or D-throw -> B-throw as they are both tripless.

 

[Ruinn]

screw it everybody just learn brthrow fthrow and bthrow dthrow thats all anybody uses anyway

 

[Noble Rebel]

Do stage transformations from ps1, ps2 and maybe delfino disrupt chaingrabs?

 

[-LzR-]

In Pokemon stages they do, but on Delfino it depends on the transformation. In pokemon stages you can use Fthrow and Dthrow to get to the edge because the edges are not affected by the transformation, but I think it doesn't work so well in PS2 thanks to air and ice transformations.

 

[TheSaintKai]

In Pokemon stages they do, but on Delfino it depends on the transformation. In pokemon stages you can use Fthrow and Dthrow to get to the edge because the edges are not affected by the transformation, but I think it doesn't work so well in PS2 thanks to air and ice transformations.

PS1 you can go to the edge and your CG will never be interrupted. Use D-throw -> D-throw to walk them there.

Delfino depends on the transformation. You'll be fine assuming you don't end up on an edge or in the water.

PS2 will always interrupt your CG, I'd assume. If memory serves, the edges change in every transformation except maybe Ice and Ground. So those two might not **** your CG up if you're on the edge.

 

[Noble Rebel]

Ok thanks