General ICs Q&A Thread

[Sieguest]

To get some chars to go to the air or on top of a platform where you can pull out that uair and nair stuff. o.o

 

[DeLux]

Yeah, outside of like, the Diddy, Snake, and Wolf matchup, there are much better ways to force a jump. (inaftergueststatingtheobvious)

But I'm 95% sure that when it's all said and done, I play the most aggro climbers of all time.

 

[Sieguest]

Well, you asked. I suppose there are a lot of ways to force jumps, but there's nothing too glaringly wrong with IBs from what I see. It's a pretty good projectile and if you're desynced you can eventually just have Popo run behind an IB for shenanigans. The only time I see something wrong with it is when you're trying to outcamp chars like Pit or something or just staying in one spot mashing the b button when your opponent starts getting close (which I'm prone to doing sometimes).

And Idunno, my climbers are pretty aggro imo.

 

[-LzR-]

Desynch IB, they are annoying as hell, so I spam them if I have the possibility.
And they are lol at gimping Ness xD

And SND IC desynchs so damn fast.

All right, does anyone ever use dsmash? I don't...
I can't seem to find any use for it.

 

[ch33s3]

Desynch IB, they are annoying as hell, so I spam them if I have the possibility.
And they are lol at gimping Ness xD

And SND IC desynchs so damn fast.

All right, does anyone ever use dsmash? I don't...
I can't seem to find any use for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezsot8VHQlI

Best dsmash.

 

[-LzR-]

Woah that was really awesome cheese! :D

Your IC is very different from others I have seen, never watched your vids before.

I just noticed you barely used your specials. My most used tactic is desynch blizzard spam. I guess it's not that useful after all.

I will play matches with my friend today, he plays DK. He brings a recorder along so we should get some videos up soon so you can help me more. I am gonna be da bess :D

 

[ch33s3]

Woah that was really awesome cheese! :D

Your IC is very different from others I have seen, never watched your vids before.

I just noticed you barely used your specials. My most used tactic is desynch blizzard spam. I guess it's not that useful after all.

I will play matches with my friend today, he plays DK. He brings a recorder along so we should get some videos up soon so you can help me more. I am gonna be da bess :D

I try and play as simply as possible. Desyncing blizzards against good MKs is not a good idea for any length of time, SDI to dair is a pain in the ***. Our specials don't mesh well with the "run the **** away and don't die" plan for MK, so I think you should use them sparingly.

Against DK though? Ice blocks and blizzards wreck a monkey.

 

[Roller]

Yo Cheese, thanks for that d-smash example. I'm sure that use will actually come in handy quite a bit.

 

[-LzR-]

So yeah, how should I play against DK? What's different than against Falco, my most played IC MU?

 

[ch33s3]

So yeah, how should I play against DK? What's different than against Falco, my most played IC MU?

He's fat, has no projectile, and can't shoot across the level at unimaginable speeds. He also kills you at 50. He's really easy to keep on the ledge, but can space you in the air.

Also his downb is a pain.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I have a question. How do I use the version on SND where Nana dashes in front of Popo instead of behind? And are there any practical uses for it?

 

[-LzR-]

I guess if they grab, Nana gets grabbed and you can easily smash them. Can't see anything else except Nana is easier to **** with smashes.

 

[DeLux]

I have a question. How do I use the version on SND where Nana dashes in front of Popo instead of behind? And are there any practical uses for it?

If you think of it in terms of spacing, if you place Nana in front of you with the SND, if you used a shield/roll derivative, it's more aggressively spaced. For example, if you SND with her in front, you can Roll forward with Popo and Drag Nana along WHILE she does a blizzard or IB to be more aggressive in Desync Action. It also let's you be more aggressive in terms of being able to DSG while she's specialing without going out of sync range. If you did the same when she's behind, you'll get out of sync range.

SND Nana behind is defensive. Take everything I said above and imagine that retreating.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Question: What is my best option as the other Ice Climber to break it up Falco's D-Throw when has the other one so I don't get caught in the laser blasts also?

 

[Roller]

I assume you mean if popo is caught. Because if nana is caught popo has a number of options.

If popo is caught in Falco's cg, mash down b and hope nana can nick him. (That's what Lain says to do at least)

If nana is caught you can use a smash, or down b, or bair, etc.

 

[Smoom77]

Dsmash is great when you run, spotdodge, then dsmash.

 

[-LzR-]

I mash A, Nana does jabs. Works surprisingly well.

 

[ch33s3]

Question: What is my best option as the other Ice Climber to break it up Falco's D-Throw when has the other one so I don't get caught in the laser blasts also?

If popo is caught, you probably want to mash blizzard. The theoretically best option would be to get her to solo squall because it gives YOU a grab, but that often fails miserably.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I should have specified when Popo is caught lol.

@Cheese: Yeah I try using Nana Squall but it never puts me in a position where I can turn it into a grab lol.

As Roller has been suggesting I've been using Blizzard for the time being but I just wanted to explore my options. I REALLY want to learn this MU because we have a few pocket Falcos that I need to watch out for and I'm tired of the MU with Snake. I know it but its so stupid and hard.

Also what is the best way of getting around Falco's Reflector? Should I be baiting it with Nana IB or Blizzard and punishing with Popo in its bad ending lag?

 

[Hylian]

It depends.

When they grab your main climber look at where nana is. If she is in front of Falco mash blizzard and you will always get out. If she is behind falco then you have to pay attention to falco. If falco doesn't stop and wait for nana to catch up really quick so that the dthrow lasers hit her then you can hit him with nair or blizzard. If he does wait so that nana is caught up in the lasers you have time to mash out of the grab before he dthrows you again.

Falco will pretty much never use reflector, if they do just shield it lol it's a free grab because it's so laggy.

 

[-LzR-]

Hello there IC boards! I want to ask you guys, how do you practice?

I spend at least about 1 hour per day in training mode, getting my desynchs more consistent and practicing my chaingrabs.

I am having a problem that I usually learn to CG a character really well, for example now, Wario. I used to be able to cg, MK, Falco, Olimar, G&W, Pikachu, Puff and so on. Now I can't anymore since I am too comfortable with Warios timing.

How can I keep myself from forgetting other chaingrabs? How do I CG lightweights correctly?

 

[Hylian]

In general it's easier to remember cg's on different characters by doing different cg's on them.

Heres an easy way to start:

Lights: Backthrow to dthrow
Medium: Bthrow to Fthrow
Heavy: Dthrow to either Fthrow or another dthrow.

Really you just have to practice a ton and find the ways you like best.

 

[-LzR-]

I can CG pretty much 90% of the cast well. It's just how do you remember the timings?

 

[DeLux]

You don't.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7281893#post7281893

You look it up ideally. If you can't, you use visual cues of the CG that indicate when to grab.

 

[Rubberbandman]

I can CG pretty much 90% of the cast well. It's just how do you remember the timings?

Muscle memory. Cultivate it and it can one day be yours.

 

[Waymas]

how exactly you charge the usmash when you get enough damage with the cg? im having trouble with that nana just uthrow etc :/

 

[DeLux]

Use the Cstick to initiate the usmash, then hold down attack/grab immediately after to charge it.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Use the Cstick to initiate the usmash, then hold down attack/grab immediately after to charge it.

Shhh, don't give them the answer, It makes it too easy.

Seriously, all I see people do in the Q&A is ask the SAME QUESTIONS. At least ask about newer things instead of the CG like "How can I apply this desynch?" Lets actually see some Ice Climbers 260 course questions, instead of Ice Climbers 101 questions.

 

[ch33s3]

Shhh, don't give them the answer, It makes it too easy.

Seriously, all I see people do in the Q&A is ask the SAME QUESTIONS. At least ask about newer things instead of the CG like "How can I apply this desynch?" Lets actually see some Ice Climbers 260 course questions, instead of Ice Climbers 101 questions.

Did you even get your teaching cert for 200 level classes? Hell, have you PASSED 200 level classes?

I only got a C in 204: Chaingrabbing.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Did you even get your teaching cert for 200 level classes? Hell, have you PASSED 200 level classes?

I only got a C in 204: Chaingrabbing.

I got a C, but I should study back up on my own time.

 

[MacNCheese.]

What's the best, easiest,fastest and most commons Desynchs?

 

[Sieguest]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291614

^ There's a start... (lol at Lux edit)

 

[DeLux]

What's the best, easiest,fastest and most commons Desynchs?

Best: Lux Desync
Easiest: Getting hit really hard by your opponent
Fastest: Turnaround Desync

 

[B0NK]

nah trip desync is definitely the easiest -_^b

 

[Ohmu]

(I've been steadily asking a string of questions in the video thread, but I think it's starting to get inappropriate since they're general questions and not really about any videos, so let me continue here

I prefer to start my chainthrows with bthrow (i.e., the standard popo bthrow > nana dthrow chain) since that's easiest for me (and, very conveniently, also doable on platforms if you hold R as you dthrow with nana, so that popo spotdodges instead of falls through).

But I saw Hylian suggest that, if your opponent is at low percent, you should start your chainthrows with buffered dthrows so that they can't break it. Some other posters (among them Lux and someone else whose name I forgot - sorry) warned that the bthrow is escapable until very high percentages, so you should in general never start a chaingrab with it.

But the percentage after which it becomes inescapable doesn't seem that high to me. I find that I can't break out of the initial bthrow after about 30%, and neither can a level 9 CPU. I also noticed that in his 1st match against M2K at APEX, Lain always started his chainthrow with a bthrow, even when MK was only at 30%. So is a Popo bthrow to Nana really breakable after 30%?

EDIT: When I'm talking about the percentages, I'm assuming that the grab starts with both Ice Climbers synced up and standing, not running.

 

[DeLux]

I prefer to start my chainthrows with bthrow (i.e., the standard popo bthrow > nana dthrow chain) since that's easiest for me (and, very conveniently, also doable on platforms if you hold R as you dthrow with nana, so that popo spotdodges instead of falls through).

Don't do that. If you go fast enough, you'll actually buffer throws out of the cooldown of the other climbers throw and you won't platform drop even if you don't spot dodge. Spot dodge adds precious frames that you don't want to give your opponent to mash. Shield buffer and go faster.

But I saw Hylian suggest that, if your opponent is at low percent, you should start your chainthrows with buffered dthrows so that they can't break it. Some other posters (among them Lux and someone else whose name I forgot - sorry) warned that the bthrow is escapable until very high percentages, so you should in general never start a chaingrab with it.

Whether it's escapable is dependent on how fast the opponent mashes, so in that sense it's debatable whether there is merit in omitting a grab-cg transition. However, my argument was that if you start with bthrow, the beginning of your cg begins with a throw that is very hard to adjust spacing on and is different than every other bthrow you'll be doing assuming you're cging at a fluid speed. As compared to a dthrow which is the easiest throw to adjust spacing on. So if you're confident in your abilities to adjust, you should dthrow first.

But the percentage after which it becomes inescapable doesn't seem that high to me. I find that I can't break out of the initial bthrow after about 30%, and neither can a level 9 CPU. I also noticed that in his 1st match against M2K at APEX, Lain always started his chainthrow with a bthrow, even when MK was only at 30%. So is a Popo bthrow to Nana really breakable after 30%?

EDIT: When I'm talking about the percentages, I'm assuming that the grab starts with both Ice Climbers synced up and standing, not running.

Lain isn't necessarily known around here for doing what is "technically correct". He just wins. Using a level 9 CPU is a bad litmus test to see if you are cging fast enough because people mash MUCH faster than a level 9 CPU. You can see for yourself if it's breakable. Guest made a chart

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=295819

 

[Ohmu]

Don't do that. If you go fast enough, you'll actually buffer throws out of the cooldown of the other climbers throw and you won't platform drop even if you don't spot dodge. Spot dodge adds precious frames that you don't want to give your opponent to mash. Shield buffer and go faster.

Wow, you're right! That's great news :-) Thanks ~

if you start with bthrow, the beginning of your cg begins with a throw that is very hard to adjust spacing on

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. What exactly do you mean when you some throws are harder, or easier to adjust spacing on? Are you talking about if your chainthrow starts from a run or pivot, as opposed to a standstill, so that spacing between the two climbers can vary based on the situation so you need to be sure to select a kind of popo throw which allows nana time to position herself to regrab best?

You can see for yourself if it's breakable. Guest made a chart

Wow, that chart is epic. Thanks for the link. And judging by it, you're right - an initial popo bthrow at 30% seems very breakable. Judging by the chart, for instance, if a standing popo grabs metaknight at 30%, mk has 20 frames (about 0.4 seconds) in which he has to mash only 18 inputs for the break, which could be accomplished by just one quick simultaneous rotation each of the analog and C-stick while pressing L & R once each, right? (I'm assuming that one full rotation of either stick counts as 8 inputs - is that correct, or is it 16 for one full rotation?) EDIT: G. Fang just mentioned that he may have erred on the chart in such a way that there are 6 or 8 frames less to mash than he thought, so maybe it's a little harder for your opponent than I've calculated here.
..............

So, about this buffered dthrow thing that is being recommended as a chainthrow starter - are you recommending that I do popo-dthrow > nana d-throw, or popo-dthrow > popo-dthrow (i.e., SoPo style)? And, assuming I'm starting from, say, 0%, how many dthrows would you recommend chaining before switching to the bthrow-dthrow chain? (Let's assume I'm chainthrowing a lightweight.) I tried to calculate that from the chart, but I'm having a little trouble interpreting the "Frames to mash before next throw" columns, which I posted about in that thread.

EDIT: Also, is starting my chains with buffered dthrows good for platforms? I see now that I can buffer dthrows out of the other climber's cooldown and not platform drop, but this seems to be practical for the bthrow > dthrow chain, or for buffered dthrows at low percentages. Once lightweights reach around 40%, I find that If I buffer repeated dowthrows during the other climber's cooldown, the timing needed for the throw to regrab but also not platform drop gets insanely tight. And that's just from a standstill; it seems downright impossible if my initial grab is from a dash. (I tried to look this up in the chart, but could't figure out how to put the relevant information together.) It seems like, with lightweights at about 40% anyway, the best option is to start with a fthrow. What are your thoughts?

Thanks so much for all your help ~

 

[DeLux]

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. What exactly do you mean when you some throws are harder, or easier to adjust spacing on? Are you talking about if your chainthrow starts from a run or pivot, as opposed to a standstill, so that spacing between the two climbers can vary based on the situation so you need to be sure to select a kind of popo throw which allows nana time to position herself to regrab best?

On the Bthrow mechanics if done via Popo Bthrow to Nana Regrab, Some weird stuff happens because of flip mechanics. At some point during the bthrow (it varies from character to character) your "Back input" flips and causes Nana to run forward in relation to the direction popo is facing. So because of the flip, Nana is running forward in relation to Popo although you're holding Backwards in relation to popo.

If Nana runs too far forward in relation to Popo, she possibly runs out of pivot grab range. This effect is especially pronounced on heavy characters where there are more frames for her to run between the flip and pivot grab regrab. Fortunately, most heavies have fatty hurt boxes so this isn't an issue. However, SNAKE has a tiny *** hurt box around his feet making regrabs much more difficult (i.e. you need to input grab early by a frame of the two frame window you usually have and not the late frame so you hit with the meaty end and larger hitbox). You can negate this by simply moving Nana further behind Popo prior to initiating Popo's back throw. Since you can't make Nana run backwards, you need a way to place her there. The best way to do that is by regrabbing with Popo out of a Nana Dthrow.

Wow, that chart is epic. Thanks for the link. And judging by it, you're right - an initial popo bthrow at 30% seems very breakable. Judging by the chart, for instance, if a standing popo grabs metaknight at 30%, mk has 20 frames (about 0.4 seconds) in which he has to mash only 18 inputs for the break, which could be accomplished by just one quick simultaneous rotation each of the analog and C-stick while pressing L & R once each, right? (I'm assuming that one full rotation of either stick counts as 8 inputs - is that correct, or is it 16 for one full rotation?) EDIT: G. Fang just mentioned that he may have erred on the chart in such a way that there are 6 or 8 frames less to mash than he thought, so maybe it's a little harder for your opponent than I've calculated here.

I saw the post about the error, but haven't gotten around to reading it to see what I think of it. I still haven't confirmed if my regrab formula algorithm is correct via the instapivot grab Legend of Ealert thing yet because I can't test in frame by frame for cstick inputs in terms of factoring out roll cancelling.

To the Best of my knowledge, a circle on the control stick counts as 8 inputs. A cstick input counts as 2 or 3 depending how you do it, And everything else counts as one (although I've been told grab hot keys count as two but not sure about that either).

So, about this buffered dthrow thing that is being recommended as a chainthrow starter - are you recommending that I do popo-dthrow > nana d-throw, or popo-dthrow > popo-dthrow (i.e., SoPo style)? And, assuming I'm starting from, say, 0%, how many dthrows would you recommend chaining before switching to the bthrow-dthrow chain? (Let's assume I'm chainthrowing a lightweight.) I tried to calculate that from the chart, but I'm having a little trouble interpreting the "Frames to mash before next throw" columns, which I posted about in that thread.

This is the general rule of thumb I use: I try to do the solo dthrow with Popo until Nana catches up to me. There will come a point where as Popo is Solo Dthrowing, Nana will actually Dash grab well infront of Popo. From there, if you abuse the sync mechanics that make Nana slide toward Popo, a Popo dthrow will setup straight to nana Regrab without any spacing adjustments on your part. Then after the Nana regrad, I'll do a nana dthrow to Popo Shield Buffered regrab to Bthrow >Dthrow CGs. If my capture card comes today, I'll make a quick video to show you what I mean if you don't understand.

Also, is starting my chains with buffered dthrows good for platforms? I see now that I can buffer dthrows out of the other climber's cooldown and not platform drop, but this seems to be practical for the bthrow > dthrow chain, or for buffered dthrows at low percentages. Once lightweights reach around 40%, I find that If I buffer repeated dowthrows during the other climber's cooldown, the timing needed for the throw to regrab but also not platform drop gets insanely tight. And that's just from a standstill; it seems downright impossible if my initial grab is from a dash. (I tried to look this up in the chart, but could't figure out how to put the relevant information together.) It seems like, with lightweights at about 40% anyway, the best option is to start with a fthrow. What are your thoughts?

Out of Dash, the window for a buffer without platform dropping would be smaller than if doing a standing grab, but it wouldn't change from percent to percent if I understand the mechanics correctly.

To be honest, I don't get many grabs on platforms so I haven't really thought about this situation. I wouldn't recommend a solo dthrow because most platforms don't have much room. Usually if I'm on a platform, I'll try to do the following:

Popo Dthrow > Nana Regrab > Nana Bthrow > Popo Dash Dance Pivot Grab > Repeat OR Bthrow Dthrow

That way you don't have to worry about the platform drop from nana to Popo AND it's a much more compact chain grab on the limited space of platforms.

 

[Ohmu]

Thanks for the advice. Just one question:

This is the general rule of thumb I use: I try to do the solo dthrow with Popo until Nana catches up to me. There will come a point where as Popo is Solo Dthrowing, Nana will actually Dash grab well infront of Popo. From there, if you abuse the sync mechanics that make Nana slide toward Popo, a Popo dthrow will setup straight to nana Regrab without any spacing adjustments on your part.

What sync mechanics can you abuse in that situation to make nana slide toward popo while she has someone in her grip? When I get to the point where nana dashes forward and grabs, nana is, like you say, well in front of popo, but the only way I can see to get popo near her is to run him there, which takes a dangerously long amount of time.

 

[DeLux]

I'll make a video. I meant to grab with her AS she slid back. She doesn't slide after you grab with her.