PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Dang it, I have MacD in my pool at NSH.
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
A lot of the people in your pool are pretty decent.
Miles.
Smash Champion
Yeah Maple and !2...I am bad vs Sheik...
Although vs Life Ruiner I kinda like the Samus Match up now.
And Scar is sitting next to me in the car right now, I keep telling him I am gunna **** him in pools haha.
Although vs Life Ruiner I kinda like the Samus Match up now.
And Scar is sitting next to me in the car right now, I keep telling him I am gunna **** him in pools haha.
Miles.
Smash Champion
Yeah Maple and !2...I am bad vs Sheik...
Although vs Life Ruiner I kinda like the Samus Match up now.
And Scar is sitting next to me in the car right now, I keep telling him I am gunna **** him in pools haha.
Although vs Life Ruiner I kinda like the Samus Match up now.
And Scar is sitting next to me in the car right now, I keep telling him I am gunna **** him in pools haha.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i think all the matchups are easy cuz ic *****
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I got ***** by a doc today. 
SoiGreg
Smash Journeyman
Who was the doc?I got ***** by a doc today.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
b-throw regrab LOL
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
A random crewmate I ended up having to play in tournament. I just mentioned it because I don't think that match-up is easy at all.
I got a tourney set recorded vs SPAWN which will be hopefully be up soon.
I got a tourney set recorded vs SPAWN which will be hopefully be up soon.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I never do as well as I want to at regionals. >_<
I didn't really do badly; I did get 7th, which is pretty decent, but I didn't have any great wins. I beat a couple not-so-noteworthy people, lost to SS, and lost a kind of heartbreaking set to Forward. The only really good person I beat was Eddy.
I didn't really do badly; I did get 7th, which is pretty decent, but I didn't have any great wins. I beat a couple not-so-noteworthy people, lost to SS, and lost a kind of heartbreaking set to Forward. The only really good person I beat was Eddy.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
who is eddy? lol
ohhhhh eddy mexico
edit: hey fly how was your set with jeff?
ohhhhh eddy mexico
edit: hey fly how was your set with jeff?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
IIRC, he one-stocked me first round on Yoshi's, I two-stocked him second round on Battlefield, he one-stocked me third round on Dreamland.
SoiGreg
Smash Journeyman
****. Good **** fly. :D
wiitubeaccount
Smash Apprentice
is icies good for doubles? if so what characters make good teammates?
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
you mean are ics good for doubles, who else are you good as?
"I" don't think they are as good in doubles, because they can't really use their grabs and camping, but they can rack a lot of damage and kill fast.
Also it partly depends on who you team with because I think peach and ice climbers would be a scary team if they hit each other. I've never done teams even in friendlies with them so don't listen to me to much, also i'm partly afraid of teams, because I feel really bad when we lose because i'm letting my partner down even if i'm better than more.
"I" don't think they are as good in doubles, because they can't really use their grabs and camping, but they can rack a lot of damage and kill fast.
Also it partly depends on who you team with because I think peach and ice climbers would be a scary team if they hit each other. I've never done teams even in friendlies with them so don't listen to me to much, also i'm partly afraid of teams, because I feel really bad when we lose because i'm letting my partner down even if i'm better than more.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
ICs are really good in doubles with some teammates and really bad with others. I think they generally need a teammate who can fend for him/herself decently well and also help the ICs whenever they're getting edgeguarded or otherwise overwhelmed.
My favorite characters to team with are Fox and Peach. I've heard Marth also works really well with ICs.
My favorite characters to team with are Fox and Peach. I've heard Marth also works really well with ICs.
SoiGreg
Smash Journeyman
The key to my success as ICs in doubles is to play two 1v1 matches. It seems a lot easier on the ICs if your partner can live by themselves.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
That is one of a couple scenarios I like to have in doubles. More generally, I'm fine as long as I can avoid getting in hectic situations that I can't easily escape from.
I have a really opportunistic approach to doubles. I often like to camp just outside of the action and take advantage of whatever openings I see. Against some teams, I just run away practically the whole time and let my teammate do 90% of the work. It feels dumb, but that sort of approach is what I've had the most success with in teams.
I have a really opportunistic approach to doubles. I often like to camp just outside of the action and take advantage of whatever openings I see. Against some teams, I just run away practically the whole time and let my teammate do 90% of the work. It feels dumb, but that sort of approach is what I've had the most success with in teams.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Kyu (IC) vs SPAWN (Sheik) 1
Kyu (IC) vs SPAWN (Sheik) 2
Okay... I was rusty and neither of us really knows the match-up... but critique please? I swear I don't normally mess up my grab combos so much.
Edit -- $1 MMs
Kyu (IC) vs VaNz (IC) 1
Kyu (IC) vs VaNz (IC) 2
Kyu (IC) vs VaNz (IC) 3
These are always fun, but I think they can go either way. I beat Chu in a ditto once (true story).
Kyu (IC) vs VaNz (Fox) 1
Kyu (IC) vs VaNz (Fox) 2
Kyu (IC) vs SPAWN (Sheik) 2
Okay... I was rusty and neither of us really knows the match-up... but critique please? I swear I don't normally mess up my grab combos so much.
Edit -- $1 MMs
Kyu (IC) vs VaNz (IC) 1
Kyu (IC) vs VaNz (IC) 2
Kyu (IC) vs VaNz (IC) 3
These are always fun, but I think they can go either way. I beat Chu in a ditto once (true story).
Kyu (IC) vs VaNz (Fox) 1
Kyu (IC) vs VaNz (Fox) 2
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Sheik is so hard to grab.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I watched the set against Spawn.
I think you played the match-up a lot better in the second round. Here are a few of my thoughts, listed in no particular order:
-Empty short hops aren't so great against Sheik, especially when you're facing towards her.
-You don't space the fsmash approach properly. It does work, but you don't usually want to squeeze under the slap; keep in mind that your fsmash is more disjointed than the slap, so the idea is to position yourself just outside of the slap's range and fsmash her as she descends. It's still hard to do and shouldn't be done too much, but it's a very useful tool.
-CC more often. I know it can be hard to CC Sheik's tilts and jabs, especially since she likes to do them after pressuring your shield with aerials, but tilts/jabs done in other circumstances can usually be punished with CC -> run in JC grab.
-You make it too easy for Sheik to get back near the center of the stage. I usually see Spawn just Shino stall until you give him enough space to get back on. Like, in the second round, you're often all the way behind the floating platforms when Spawn is Shino stalling. You should be pretty close to Sheik to apply a lot pressure here, although not so close that he can slap you or something. I think the best way to deal with really persistent Shino stalling is to make it look like you want to edgehog him out of it and then punish him when he tries to get back. I am a fan of simply turning away from the edge, which many Sheiks respond to by wavedashing on stage, and then turning around and grabbing them. That probably doesn't work against very well-done invincible wavelands, but Sheiks tend to be somewhat sloppy. Another really good tool when Sheik is by the edge is desynched blizzard. It doesn't beat Shino stalling, but it does stop just about everything Sheik can do to get back on stage, except rolling on, which is easy to punish on reaction.
-Spawn likes to full jump a lot. A lot of Sheiks don't do this since it's kind of unsafe, but if you see Sheik do it a lot, don't be afraid to run forward and full jump uair him out of it.
-You like to sh uair -> full jump bair, which is fine, except that you miss with the bair often. I'm guessing that's just a consequence of you being rusty, though. I think it's generally better to try to follow the uair with more uairs, also, since it's usually better to have Sheik above you than to your side.
-Blizzard more. Blizzard is a really good tool for alleviating some of Sheik's pressure. I mostly mean some form of desynched blizzard with Nana, but even synched short hop blizzard or short hop blizzard with Sopo can be used to hit Sheik out of her short hop. This is probably riskier against Spawn than it is against most other good Sheiks because of his tendency to full jump, though.
On another note, I think FoD is Sheik's best neutral against ICs and I recommend striking it. That might just be a consequence of how I like to play the match-up, though.
I think you played the match-up a lot better in the second round. Here are a few of my thoughts, listed in no particular order:
-Empty short hops aren't so great against Sheik, especially when you're facing towards her.
-You don't space the fsmash approach properly. It does work, but you don't usually want to squeeze under the slap; keep in mind that your fsmash is more disjointed than the slap, so the idea is to position yourself just outside of the slap's range and fsmash her as she descends. It's still hard to do and shouldn't be done too much, but it's a very useful tool.
-CC more often. I know it can be hard to CC Sheik's tilts and jabs, especially since she likes to do them after pressuring your shield with aerials, but tilts/jabs done in other circumstances can usually be punished with CC -> run in JC grab.
-You make it too easy for Sheik to get back near the center of the stage. I usually see Spawn just Shino stall until you give him enough space to get back on. Like, in the second round, you're often all the way behind the floating platforms when Spawn is Shino stalling. You should be pretty close to Sheik to apply a lot pressure here, although not so close that he can slap you or something. I think the best way to deal with really persistent Shino stalling is to make it look like you want to edgehog him out of it and then punish him when he tries to get back. I am a fan of simply turning away from the edge, which many Sheiks respond to by wavedashing on stage, and then turning around and grabbing them. That probably doesn't work against very well-done invincible wavelands, but Sheiks tend to be somewhat sloppy. Another really good tool when Sheik is by the edge is desynched blizzard. It doesn't beat Shino stalling, but it does stop just about everything Sheik can do to get back on stage, except rolling on, which is easy to punish on reaction.
-Spawn likes to full jump a lot. A lot of Sheiks don't do this since it's kind of unsafe, but if you see Sheik do it a lot, don't be afraid to run forward and full jump uair him out of it.
-You like to sh uair -> full jump bair, which is fine, except that you miss with the bair often. I'm guessing that's just a consequence of you being rusty, though. I think it's generally better to try to follow the uair with more uairs, also, since it's usually better to have Sheik above you than to your side.
-Blizzard more. Blizzard is a really good tool for alleviating some of Sheik's pressure. I mostly mean some form of desynched blizzard with Nana, but even synched short hop blizzard or short hop blizzard with Sopo can be used to hit Sheik out of her short hop. This is probably riskier against Spawn than it is against most other good Sheiks because of his tendency to full jump, though.
On another note, I think FoD is Sheik's best neutral against ICs and I recommend striking it. That might just be a consequence of how I like to play the match-up, though.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
I recorded this set and the set where you destroy L. I also go game 1 vs Foward and half of game 2 vs Foward.
I was really blown away at your SoPo vs Jeff. You had a like a 2 stock come back with just SoPo one game if I remember correctly.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Sweet. Upload and link them, pleeeez.
Edit - One other thing: Fly, seeing as you beat Eddie Mexico (?) at Nice Shot Hugo (?), do you have any tips on that match-up? There are two really good Luigi players in my region whom I have to play a lot. Anything that you think is vital in the match-up ... I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd be willing to lay it down for me. I mainly have trouble dealing with Luigi's dsmash (it shield stabs me and separates Nana and Popo), ftilt (used defensively and offensively - too much range
), and his shield pressure (i.e., short hopped double aerials).If it helps, I have a tournament video against a Luigi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNpOwSdP6nI
choknater
Smash Obsessed
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Something weird that happened in a friendly the other day.
Was using ICs, I think Fox Baired my shield. Nana was light-shielding while I was hard-shielding. I tried to WD OoS to D-smash, but I think I did it too early because I was locked in shield stun and didn't produce anything. Then Nana WDed OoS and D-smashed on her own.
Anyone else ever experience anything like this?
Was using ICs, I think Fox Baired my shield. Nana was light-shielding while I was hard-shielding. I tried to WD OoS to D-smash, but I think I did it too early because I was locked in shield stun and didn't produce anything. Then Nana WDed OoS and D-smashed on her own.
Anyone else ever experience anything like this?
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Yeah that happens often for me. I think it is pretty cool.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I wonder if this could be used this to get grab setups near the edge and **** people. That would be so filthy.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Yeah, that, sort of thing happens when you input a command when Popo is still in shield stun and Nana gets out of shield stun within six frames of the input. The bair probably hit Nana's shield a lot earlier than it hit Popo's shield since Nana's shield was larger, which is why she got out of shield stun in time to execute the command while Popo didn't.
ChivalRuse, I'll watch the round right now.
edit: I think you do a lot of things reasonably well a lot of the time and there are some other things you do almost right, but not quite. More specific details:
-You like to full jump a lot. That really isn't all that bad against Luigi compared to most other characters, but it limit your movement a bit.
-Short hop fair a little more. It's a really nice move that can outspace Luigi's aerials. It generally works pretty well, which you seem to be aware of since you use it pretty often and often quite well, but you don't always space it right. Also, if Luigi fairs your shield and tries to dair afterwards, you can often get away with a retreating short hop fair afterwards to outspace him.
-A lot of your stock losses were due to things like dsmash and down-B. Down-B is easy to punish with wavedash OoS -> grab. IIRC, you got hit by it on your lost stock because you were doing an empty short hop in a position where you didn't really have anything to gain from doing an empty short hop, so be careful about that. Dsmash is hard to punish directly. I think you should make your shield a bit larger for one thing. Angling it downward can also help.
-You can't punish dsmash directly, but I really like doing a retreating fair OoS afterwards. Retreating fair often lets you dodge and punish things Luigi likes to do after dsmashing your shield, like short hop double aerials, spot dodge, maybe jab combos, etc. If Luigi catches onto this does other stuff afterwards, try mixing in things like wavedash OoS -> grab or simply retreating away and rolling.
-Auto-canceled bairs in general are really good against Luigi. You used them well on your first stock, but abandoned them for the most of the rest of the match, except near the end.
-Don't get too caught up in moving in fancy ways against Luigi. IIRC, you got hit a few times because you were just wavedashing back and forth. That sort of thing is really risky against a character with as much ground speed as Luigi.
-It's really easy to kill Luigi off the top. The one time I recall you grabbing him at a high percentage, you did dthrow fsmash, while dthrow -> slightly charged usmash definitely would have KO'd.
-Get a little better juggling Luigi. The air is not a safe place for him and your uair can be really problematic for him, but you need to be careful about how you space it. It can be tempting to full jump uair after him, but his nair's weird hitbox can make that hard, but then you can just short hop uair in anticipation of the descending nair and keep juggling him off that (I don't recall if any problems like that actually happened in your match, but it's good to keep in mind.)
-A brief and kind of random note: Dash attack is good for sending Luigi in the air, but it's hard to land. You can often use it to beat his ftilt approach and can sometimes sneak it in between his short hop aerials. It's risky, but still very good.
There's probably more stuff I'm forgetting to say. I'm not very good at giving criticism. >_<
ChivalRuse, I'll watch the round right now.
edit: I think you do a lot of things reasonably well a lot of the time and there are some other things you do almost right, but not quite. More specific details:
-You like to full jump a lot. That really isn't all that bad against Luigi compared to most other characters, but it limit your movement a bit.
-Short hop fair a little more. It's a really nice move that can outspace Luigi's aerials. It generally works pretty well, which you seem to be aware of since you use it pretty often and often quite well, but you don't always space it right. Also, if Luigi fairs your shield and tries to dair afterwards, you can often get away with a retreating short hop fair afterwards to outspace him.
-A lot of your stock losses were due to things like dsmash and down-B. Down-B is easy to punish with wavedash OoS -> grab. IIRC, you got hit by it on your lost stock because you were doing an empty short hop in a position where you didn't really have anything to gain from doing an empty short hop, so be careful about that. Dsmash is hard to punish directly. I think you should make your shield a bit larger for one thing. Angling it downward can also help.
-You can't punish dsmash directly, but I really like doing a retreating fair OoS afterwards. Retreating fair often lets you dodge and punish things Luigi likes to do after dsmashing your shield, like short hop double aerials, spot dodge, maybe jab combos, etc. If Luigi catches onto this does other stuff afterwards, try mixing in things like wavedash OoS -> grab or simply retreating away and rolling.
-Auto-canceled bairs in general are really good against Luigi. You used them well on your first stock, but abandoned them for the most of the rest of the match, except near the end.
-Don't get too caught up in moving in fancy ways against Luigi. IIRC, you got hit a few times because you were just wavedashing back and forth. That sort of thing is really risky against a character with as much ground speed as Luigi.
-It's really easy to kill Luigi off the top. The one time I recall you grabbing him at a high percentage, you did dthrow fsmash, while dthrow -> slightly charged usmash definitely would have KO'd.
-Get a little better juggling Luigi. The air is not a safe place for him and your uair can be really problematic for him, but you need to be careful about how you space it. It can be tempting to full jump uair after him, but his nair's weird hitbox can make that hard, but then you can just short hop uair in anticipation of the descending nair and keep juggling him off that (I don't recall if any problems like that actually happened in your match, but it's good to keep in mind.)
-A brief and kind of random note: Dash attack is good for sending Luigi in the air, but it's hard to land. You can often use it to beat his ftilt approach and can sometimes sneak it in between his short hop aerials. It's risky, but still very good.
There's probably more stuff I'm forgetting to say. I'm not very good at giving criticism. >_<
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
The Bair did hit on Nana's shield much earlier than it did on Popo's. I figured that was how the mechanic worked when it happened but I figured I'd check here first. Do you think that sort of shield abuse could be a useful thing to explore in the future? Does anyone actively try to use this?
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Also I would like to point out that KirbyKaze is one of us, I knew it all along.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
don't feel bad rich in theroy ice climbers are really flexble and have many options for little ever little thing. Your head would explode if you did all their tricks and junk in one match, but no joke no one would be able to read you.
one of us, one of us
one of us, one of us
im not entirely sure, but once when i played vs comps when i was bored i wd forward with both climbers, but only nana did the dsmash. Couldn't reproduce it so either it was something completly random or my eyes were just broken at that moment.
A thought came to my mind today, all threads about new stuff about ICs and ways to evolve their metagame always includes nana being alive, and lets face it, players just keep getting better at killing her while she remains ******** forever. What I feel is that we should start focusing on evolving spopo, think of ICs as a standalone character and what we can do to improve him rather than figuring out more desynchs and chaingrabs (although they are still awesome).
A thought came to my mind today, all threads about new stuff about ICs and ways to evolve their metagame always includes nana being alive, and lets face it, players just keep getting better at killing her while she remains ******** forever. What I feel is that we should start focusing on evolving spopo, think of ICs as a standalone character and what we can do to improve him rather than figuring out more desynchs and chaingrabs (although they are still awesome).
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yea, that happens fairly commonly, KK. Sometimes when I input a bair oos or something else (while Popo's still in shield stun) only Nana does it.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
@ChivalRuse: See the edit in my previous post if you hadn't already.
@KK: The same sort of thing can happen even if a move doesn't hit Nana's shield well before Popo's. Like, if Popo and Nana are both in normal shields and a move hits both shields at roughly the same time, you can often squeeze in an input such that Nana can act on it and Popo can't because of the six frame delay between them. It's cool, but I don't think it has a lot of practical applications. I could be wrong, though.
@KK: The same sort of thing can happen even if a move doesn't hit Nana's shield well before Popo's. Like, if Popo and Nana are both in normal shields and a move hits both shields at roughly the same time, you can often squeeze in an input such that Nana can act on it and Popo can't because of the six frame delay between them. It's cool, but I don't think it has a lot of practical applications. I could be wrong, though.
Devil Ray
Smash Lord
i have a few questions for the grab combos (not chain grabs)
-sometimes when i do downthrow then fsmash with nana, i get a "Soft" version where it only does 10%. i think the version that does about 20% needs different timing, you need to wait half a second later for nana to get the full swing. can the opponent DI out of the "hard" version ???
-is downthrow upsmash with nana the strongest guaranteed smash combo? outside of chain grabs, what's the best grab combo i can do on someone ???
-does jab to grab work on almost every character? i know it does NOT work on doc for some reason, but it seems to work on all the top and high tiers
-sometimes when i do downthrow then fsmash with nana, i get a "Soft" version where it only does 10%. i think the version that does about 20% needs different timing, you need to wait half a second later for nana to get the full swing. can the opponent DI out of the "hard" version ???
-is downthrow upsmash with nana the strongest guaranteed smash combo? outside of chain grabs, what's the best grab combo i can do on someone ???
-does jab to grab work on almost every character? i know it does NOT work on doc for some reason, but it seems to work on all the top and high tiers
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Here is vid 1 of Fly vs L.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PGtfkxRv3Y
Maybe I should post these in a thread so once they are all up they are easily accessable.
I dont care that that is not correct spelling.
Edit
here is game 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzziAZRF0D0
Edit
Fly vs SS anyone? ^____^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4Nk1_5CT64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCwwgY6VS4g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2YamHe1PMk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PGtfkxRv3Y
Maybe I should post these in a thread so once they are all up they are easily accessable.
I dont care that that is not correct spelling.
Edit
here is game 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzziAZRF0D0
Edit
Fly vs SS anyone? ^____^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4Nk1_5CT64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCwwgY6VS4g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2YamHe1PMk
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I hate being recorded. >_<
Oh well.
Oh well.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
I wish you would have let me record you at R3 Fly when you like double 3 stocked Silent Spectre.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Thanks a lot, Fly. I'll definitely take the stuff you said to heart.