PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Known and useful.
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Note to self: Do not let Fox hit my shield.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
If you grab fastfallers at low to mid percent with Popo is the dash-A or up-smash follow-up guaranteed? My friends here at school (who are pretty technical but that's about it) never seem to escape my up-throw combos unless they are Falcon, in which case they are able to jump if I try dash-A. What's a good way to combo off of up-throw vs. Falcon? Or am I better off with d-throw or b-throw?
Also, if they don't DI up-throw away and are at mid percent, what's a good way to combo? At low percent you can up-smash and regrab but it seems like at mid percent you can only just up-air or back-air.
Another similar situation is if you d-throw a floaty and they DI above you. I feel like I should be able to get a lot more damage off of this kind of situation.
Also, if they don't DI up-throw away and are at mid percent, what's a good way to combo? At low percent you can up-smash and regrab but it seems like at mid percent you can only just up-air or back-air.
Another similar situation is if you d-throw a floaty and they DI above you. I feel like I should be able to get a lot more damage off of this kind of situation.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I think on Fox and Falco, at really low percentages, usmash is guaranteed if they don't DI away and dash attack is if they DI away. The dash attack follow-up can still be escaped by something like 20 or 30 percent, although a lot of space animals are bad at that and still get hit anyways.
I believe Falcon can always escape anything you can do after uthrow if he DIs away. You can still get pretty good mileage off of uthrow, though; most Falcons will double jump after uthrow to avoid dash attack, but if you read this and full jump uair, you can usually hit him with at least one other uair and something else afterwards. This is assuming there aren't any platforms in the way.
I generally prefer dthrow against Falcon. If you can react to his DI really quickly or can predict how he will DI, you can dthrow CG him the same way you can dthrow CG Sheik. A lot of Falcons will just DI the dthrow away, but if you start dash-grabbing him when he DIs away, he'll start occasionally not DIing away, in which case you can also just fsmash him after dthrow, or do something else like utilt. If you guess that he won't DI away and he does, you still have an opportunity to tech chase him.
Yeah, it seems like you can't do much at mid-percentages after uthrow on fastfallers if they don't DI away aside from uair and bair, but uair and bair are still fine options, so this doesn't bother me much.
What you can do to floaties varies a lot by weight and a few other factors. If it's a floaty that isn't that great at moving around in the air and you think your opponent will double jump as soon as he can, you can just wait for the double jump and then juggle him with uair for a while. It's really hard for a lot of floaties to get to the ground against ICs without their double jump. Most of the time, I just uair floaties after dthrowing them if they don't DI away, or if they're at low percentages, usmash, although I think a lot of them can escape that, but don't for whatever reason. It's hard for me to make generalizations about floaty characters since I think ICs' options on them vary greatly by character.
I believe Falcon can always escape anything you can do after uthrow if he DIs away. You can still get pretty good mileage off of uthrow, though; most Falcons will double jump after uthrow to avoid dash attack, but if you read this and full jump uair, you can usually hit him with at least one other uair and something else afterwards. This is assuming there aren't any platforms in the way.
I generally prefer dthrow against Falcon. If you can react to his DI really quickly or can predict how he will DI, you can dthrow CG him the same way you can dthrow CG Sheik. A lot of Falcons will just DI the dthrow away, but if you start dash-grabbing him when he DIs away, he'll start occasionally not DIing away, in which case you can also just fsmash him after dthrow, or do something else like utilt. If you guess that he won't DI away and he does, you still have an opportunity to tech chase him.
Yeah, it seems like you can't do much at mid-percentages after uthrow on fastfallers if they don't DI away aside from uair and bair, but uair and bair are still fine options, so this doesn't bother me much.
What you can do to floaties varies a lot by weight and a few other factors. If it's a floaty that isn't that great at moving around in the air and you think your opponent will double jump as soon as he can, you can just wait for the double jump and then juggle him with uair for a while. It's really hard for a lot of floaties to get to the ground against ICs without their double jump. Most of the time, I just uair floaties after dthrowing them if they don't DI away, or if they're at low percentages, usmash, although I think a lot of them can escape that, but don't for whatever reason. It's hard for me to make generalizations about floaty characters since I think ICs' options on them vary greatly by character.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I'm guessing that Fox / Falco can escape by jumping, but have a really small window to do it?
The d-throw combos against floaties that I am most interested in are vs. Marth, Peach, Samus, the Marios, and Luigi. As of now all I do is dash-A into aerials if they DI away at low / mid percents, wavedash d-smash if they DI away at high percent, and bair/uair/up-smash if they DI up. I'll give the delayed uair-after-midair-jump thing a try next time I play. These aren't bad followups by any means, but if you have better character-specific ideas I'd love to hear them.
As always, I really appreciate your advice. Are you going to Apex?
The d-throw combos against floaties that I am most interested in are vs. Marth, Peach, Samus, the Marios, and Luigi. As of now all I do is dash-A into aerials if they DI away at low / mid percents, wavedash d-smash if they DI away at high percent, and bair/uair/up-smash if they DI up. I'll give the delayed uair-after-midair-jump thing a try next time I play. These aren't bad followups by any means, but if you have better character-specific ideas I'd love to hear them.
As always, I really appreciate your advice. Are you going to Apex?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Yeah, I believe Fox and Falco can jump before you dash attack them unless they're at really low percentages.
I do a lot of the same things you do against the characters you listed. If you somehow manage to grab a Luigi with Sopo, I actually think uthrow works pretty well at low to medium percentages because he descends so slowly and has a harder time getting around ICs' uair. I haven't grabbed good Luigis often enough as Sopo to know if this is better than the options you have after dthrow, though. I would guess that uthrow could also work against the Marios for similar reasons, but I'm not sure.
Something else that I think can be pretty decent against Marth/Samus and possibly the Marios when they don't DI the dthrow away at low percentages is the short hop auto-canceled uair. I don't think it's guaranteed to lead into anything, but I like the position it puts them in relative to the ICs.
I'm not sure if I'm going to Apex yet. I really want to, though, especially since I've never left California for a tournament. I doubt I'll be busy then, unless something grad school-related pops up.
I do a lot of the same things you do against the characters you listed. If you somehow manage to grab a Luigi with Sopo, I actually think uthrow works pretty well at low to medium percentages because he descends so slowly and has a harder time getting around ICs' uair. I haven't grabbed good Luigis often enough as Sopo to know if this is better than the options you have after dthrow, though. I would guess that uthrow could also work against the Marios for similar reasons, but I'm not sure.
Something else that I think can be pretty decent against Marth/Samus and possibly the Marios when they don't DI the dthrow away at low percentages is the short hop auto-canceled uair. I don't think it's guaranteed to lead into anything, but I like the position it puts them in relative to the ICs.
I'm not sure if I'm going to Apex yet. I really want to, though, especially since I've never left California for a tournament. I doubt I'll be busy then, unless something grad school-related pops up.
Fly needs to come to POE.
I played some higher level players in the MW today and ran ino some problems.
First was a really good old school Falco (vipe rboy) and he didnt hardly laser at all. He realized my Iceblocks and WD nana Fsmash shut them down, and then proceeded to mega-approach unpredictably. Never giving me enough space to comfortably iceblock, and changing up the approach every time. Dair to utilt on the back of my shield was really painful. I couldn't ever shieldgrab or punish out of shield. I just got broken down and eventually shieldpoked, grabbed, or outprioritized when I challenged a move. Against Fox and Falcon, both with powerful approaches, I feel like I can counter what they do with well spaced fsmashes/fairs/bairs/utilts/uairs whatever. With Falco, I feel like if they approach, I get hit. If they don't then I can actually work. I did pretty well, probably taking 1/3 or 1/4 of the matches, but I felt like it was all lucky BS that lead to chaingrabs. I didn't feel like I had any control whatsoever.
I was also doing really well against a good MW marth, until he realized that all he has to do is Fthrow Fsmash nana to kill her, and do the same to me if I wasn't ready. How do you stop getting grabbed my Marth? I wasn't totally cooped up in my shield, and I certainly wasn't getting shieldgrabbed often. He would wall me, force me into shield, poke, I'd try to do something, and id get grabbed. Either shieldgrab, dashdance grab, or fair>grab. Blehh that was very difficult.
My last concern was against Ganon. Wow. I just got hit and hit. If I didn't kill out of every synced grab I would get 2 or 3 stocked pretty consistently. I realized quickly that ganon can't really be fought like Falcon. Spaced jabs, ftilts, unfairs, and even stomps kept me constantly sad. Dthrow reverse dair is nice, but I didn't know how to run my neutral game.
Maybe these provide some decent points to expand on =]
I played some higher level players in the MW today and ran ino some problems.
First was a really good old school Falco (vipe rboy) and he didnt hardly laser at all. He realized my Iceblocks and WD nana Fsmash shut them down, and then proceeded to mega-approach unpredictably. Never giving me enough space to comfortably iceblock, and changing up the approach every time. Dair to utilt on the back of my shield was really painful. I couldn't ever shieldgrab or punish out of shield. I just got broken down and eventually shieldpoked, grabbed, or outprioritized when I challenged a move. Against Fox and Falcon, both with powerful approaches, I feel like I can counter what they do with well spaced fsmashes/fairs/bairs/utilts/uairs whatever. With Falco, I feel like if they approach, I get hit. If they don't then I can actually work. I did pretty well, probably taking 1/3 or 1/4 of the matches, but I felt like it was all lucky BS that lead to chaingrabs. I didn't feel like I had any control whatsoever.
I was also doing really well against a good MW marth, until he realized that all he has to do is Fthrow Fsmash nana to kill her, and do the same to me if I wasn't ready. How do you stop getting grabbed my Marth? I wasn't totally cooped up in my shield, and I certainly wasn't getting shieldgrabbed often. He would wall me, force me into shield, poke, I'd try to do something, and id get grabbed. Either shieldgrab, dashdance grab, or fair>grab. Blehh that was very difficult.
My last concern was against Ganon. Wow. I just got hit and hit. If I didn't kill out of every synced grab I would get 2 or 3 stocked pretty consistently. I realized quickly that ganon can't really be fought like Falcon. Spaced jabs, ftilts, unfairs, and even stomps kept me constantly sad. Dthrow reverse dair is nice, but I didn't know how to run my neutral game.
Maybe these provide some decent points to expand on =]
choknater
Smash Obsessed
for falco u gotta find a way to set the pace urself. for falco, offense is always the best option in almost every matchup except like peach and puff, for ic's he is always gonna find a way in. those 'lucky bs' that land u grabs are what u need to figure out, cuz thats how to win against matchup. even if it's something dumb like falco missing an l cancel or you landing a random nana dash attack, u have to capitalize on those things that break his momentum. of course dont go trying to just be aggressive to break his offense... space well and find an opening, but u cant focus on just being safe, but rather finding the attack that will break through his offense
as for moves, i generally tend to try to break him with dash attacks, wavesmashes, blizzard, ice blocks, and uair. there are certain times to use each of those moves
for marth a good way to pressure him is actually... by shielding in his face LOL. his 'walling' is usually done by fairs, nairs, dtilt, and finding an opportunity to fsmash you. usually ic's wd approach is really hard to space against even if he is throwing out attacks, cuz there are times between his attacks where u can actually do something. weave in and out with ur shield and wd, and there will be an opening. if marth nicks u with an attack its really bad but its one of the best ways to open him up if he is being defensive.
ice blocks can sometimes stop him from being too defensive, but smart marths will usually just not mind them. he should just try to space stuff to tip u, and i guess if ur blocking his stuff he will try to mix it up on ur shield and grab u. thats why u gotta constantly be moving
i dont know how to fight ganon LOL i also get 2/3 stocked by any ganon i play. but i tap with falco all dai so its cool
as for moves, i generally tend to try to break him with dash attacks, wavesmashes, blizzard, ice blocks, and uair. there are certain times to use each of those moves
for marth a good way to pressure him is actually... by shielding in his face LOL. his 'walling' is usually done by fairs, nairs, dtilt, and finding an opportunity to fsmash you. usually ic's wd approach is really hard to space against even if he is throwing out attacks, cuz there are times between his attacks where u can actually do something. weave in and out with ur shield and wd, and there will be an opening. if marth nicks u with an attack its really bad but its one of the best ways to open him up if he is being defensive.
ice blocks can sometimes stop him from being too defensive, but smart marths will usually just not mind them. he should just try to space stuff to tip u, and i guess if ur blocking his stuff he will try to mix it up on ur shield and grab u. thats why u gotta constantly be moving
i dont know how to fight ganon LOL i also get 2/3 stocked by any ganon i play. but i tap with falco all dai so its cool
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
chok and/or fly... do you play with hmw and shroomed a lot? how do you win that match-up? x.x
Thanks very much Chok!
I do have one question. When you say constantly be moving vs Marth, where should I be going? It seems like my only option is WD back and forth...maybe DD a little.
Is there a certain time or situation when you use those different moves to break falco's approach? Or do you kinda just say go and hope for the best. It seems so hard to keep track of what he is doing because he only has 19 moves that pressure and space the ICs perfectly. Dairs just catch everything.
Seconded.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Against Marth what you have to do is wait for him to non-sweetspot f-smash your shield. You can easily punish this with wd oos grab, and following whatever you do from there, you should be able to get him into a position where he doesn't have much stage to work with, giving you a lot of time to be patient and find another opening, or get him to make a bad decision. WDing into him with shield can mess up his spacing and make him make this kind of mistake.
If you get stuck in your shield and he's d-tilting you or lands a tippered f-smash, just roll or wd away; there's nothing you can do. A good thing to do is Ice Shot a lot since it can get him to go in the air, in which case you can get under him with uairs. The up-B oos desynch is also useful since you trick Marth into thinking he has an opening and he gets hit in the face with blizzard. Dash-A is good too if you find a way to land it. If you spend the whole match being defensive then a random dash-A can catch him off guard and it's a good combo starter.
One thing I actually have success with is rolling behind Marth. For some reason Marths get caught off guard by this all the time and whiff a smash or just make some sort of mistake. It may seem like a bad strategy but I've had success with this against good EC Marths. Just don't do it too often obviously.
Overall I really don't find the Marth matchup that bad. Just be really patient, shoot stuff at him, and make sure you don't give up ground too easily. Realize what you can and cannot punish - I find that a lot of the time ICs get hit in the Marth matchup is by stupidly trying to punish something. If you get boxed in a corner try to wd across platforms to escape or roll behind him and usually the worst that happens is you get hit into the middle of the stage.
If you get stuck in your shield and he's d-tilting you or lands a tippered f-smash, just roll or wd away; there's nothing you can do. A good thing to do is Ice Shot a lot since it can get him to go in the air, in which case you can get under him with uairs. The up-B oos desynch is also useful since you trick Marth into thinking he has an opening and he gets hit in the face with blizzard. Dash-A is good too if you find a way to land it. If you spend the whole match being defensive then a random dash-A can catch him off guard and it's a good combo starter.
One thing I actually have success with is rolling behind Marth. For some reason Marths get caught off guard by this all the time and whiff a smash or just make some sort of mistake. It may seem like a bad strategy but I've had success with this against good EC Marths. Just don't do it too often obviously.
Overall I really don't find the Marth matchup that bad. Just be really patient, shoot stuff at him, and make sure you don't give up ground too easily. Realize what you can and cannot punish - I find that a lot of the time ICs get hit in the Marth matchup is by stupidly trying to punish something. If you get boxed in a corner try to wd across platforms to escape or roll behind him and usually the worst that happens is you get hit into the middle of the stage.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
So my Popo is over 100% and holding the ledge. How do I get back onto the stage when Samus is blocking my wavelands with utilts, ftilts, and jabs? Am I just not wavelanding fast enough to make full use of the ledge invincibility?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
chivalruse: maybe you can mindgame her by dropping and just grabbing the ledge a couple times to see what she does, and then waveland into a shield. remember that samus is bad against shields lol. u can also even try to drop lower and waveland, its slower but less expected than a fast waveland. mix it up
nintendude ur advice against marth is good, i should try that stuff, especially the roll thing. rolling behind me catches me off guard in brawl, so i know it works sometimes. i never thought of that
kyu: yeah haha hmw and i used to live in the same town for quite a while
doc matchup....
space really well. his pills can really help him approach, theyre just a good way for him to prevent approaches and also set up his own. just learn to maneuver around them, get used to the way they bounce. its not much different from avoiding samus' missiles... you just have to get used to it, and know what position to be in for him to approach.
he can approach with various stuff... hard attacks are always good against ic's shields (ganon fair, peach fair, falco fsmash, stuff like that.) so his fair is good, and his nair approach is good. his nair hitbox gets stronger so it can push your shield back pretty well if u get hit with the later one.
one thing that can be really hard to deal with is his jab mixup... he can jab -> grab, or jab -> dsmash. HMW does this a lot, and its really effective. HMW has a tendency to really patiently space u until he can get close and do something, and a lot of times it was jab->dsmash, which just pushes ur shield back like crazy and resets spacing. getting hit with the dsmash is really bad so be prepared for some guesswork if he jabs u, but its usually safer just to shield. try not to let him get close enough to jab... that is too close, so stay outside of his range. it ain't marth's range, but be weary of that dsmash.
hm... this matchup is a lot of ground game. the spacing is pretty much always horizontal, as opposed to falcon or puff cuz they like to go above you. doc is a very side-to-side matchup, dictated by ic's wds, pills, ice blocks, and doc's walk-up or short hop approaches.
protip: for some reason fsmash is a really good move vs doc lol. i dont know why, but i would catch hmw with this move a lot. like just wd up and fsmash LOL. obviously dont spam it, but doc is not one to normally put up his shield while he is spacing, so sometimes i would just purposely overextend myself and fsmash and do like 30 damage + edgeguard. it rapesss lol. risky but i tend to take those risks lol
i played shroomed in a set before as well... he is much more aggressive, tries to find many different ways to approach. basically watch out for fair, walk up jab, nair, pill, or even a falling uair. use ur disjointed hitboxes to beat his punches and kicks.
heres something really important: edgeguarding doc
if he DI's well, he will almost always try to mix you up by jumping early, falling at an angle where pills will hit you where you try to edgehog/edgeguard. be very patient, and watch for his cape or rising tornado. u can react and bair him after these sometimes. another risky thing you can do if he is recovering lower is wait for his double jump and bair him.
the invincible ledgehop dair edgeguard against his up b also works well against him, its a good way to mess up his sweetspot... but a good doc is still obviously gonna nail that sweetspot sometimes haha, but the extra damage helps. only ice block if he is gonna recover low and if it will actually help you rather than him... most of the time i just try to edgehog after he's thrown his pills.
anyway, i usually lose to hmw these days, and i went 1-2 with shroomed in our tourny set a while back (a year ago exactly... LOL) but even if i lose.... they are the best freaking docs and im pretty sure nobody knows more than me about this matchup LOL
by the way....
HAPPY BIRTHDAY HOMEMADEWAFFLES
nintendude ur advice against marth is good, i should try that stuff, especially the roll thing. rolling behind me catches me off guard in brawl, so i know it works sometimes. i never thought of that
kyu: yeah haha hmw and i used to live in the same town for quite a while
doc matchup....
space really well. his pills can really help him approach, theyre just a good way for him to prevent approaches and also set up his own. just learn to maneuver around them, get used to the way they bounce. its not much different from avoiding samus' missiles... you just have to get used to it, and know what position to be in for him to approach.
he can approach with various stuff... hard attacks are always good against ic's shields (ganon fair, peach fair, falco fsmash, stuff like that.) so his fair is good, and his nair approach is good. his nair hitbox gets stronger so it can push your shield back pretty well if u get hit with the later one.
one thing that can be really hard to deal with is his jab mixup... he can jab -> grab, or jab -> dsmash. HMW does this a lot, and its really effective. HMW has a tendency to really patiently space u until he can get close and do something, and a lot of times it was jab->dsmash, which just pushes ur shield back like crazy and resets spacing. getting hit with the dsmash is really bad so be prepared for some guesswork if he jabs u, but its usually safer just to shield. try not to let him get close enough to jab... that is too close, so stay outside of his range. it ain't marth's range, but be weary of that dsmash.
hm... this matchup is a lot of ground game. the spacing is pretty much always horizontal, as opposed to falcon or puff cuz they like to go above you. doc is a very side-to-side matchup, dictated by ic's wds, pills, ice blocks, and doc's walk-up or short hop approaches.
protip: for some reason fsmash is a really good move vs doc lol. i dont know why, but i would catch hmw with this move a lot. like just wd up and fsmash LOL. obviously dont spam it, but doc is not one to normally put up his shield while he is spacing, so sometimes i would just purposely overextend myself and fsmash and do like 30 damage + edgeguard. it rapesss lol. risky but i tend to take those risks lol
i played shroomed in a set before as well... he is much more aggressive, tries to find many different ways to approach. basically watch out for fair, walk up jab, nair, pill, or even a falling uair. use ur disjointed hitboxes to beat his punches and kicks.
heres something really important: edgeguarding doc
if he DI's well, he will almost always try to mix you up by jumping early, falling at an angle where pills will hit you where you try to edgehog/edgeguard. be very patient, and watch for his cape or rising tornado. u can react and bair him after these sometimes. another risky thing you can do if he is recovering lower is wait for his double jump and bair him.
the invincible ledgehop dair edgeguard against his up b also works well against him, its a good way to mess up his sweetspot... but a good doc is still obviously gonna nail that sweetspot sometimes haha, but the extra damage helps. only ice block if he is gonna recover low and if it will actually help you rather than him... most of the time i just try to edgehog after he's thrown his pills.
anyway, i usually lose to hmw these days, and i went 1-2 with shroomed in our tourny set a while back (a year ago exactly... LOL) but even if i lose.... they are the best freaking docs and im pretty sure nobody knows more than me about this matchup LOL
by the way....
HAPPY BIRTHDAY HOMEMADEWAFFLES
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I don't have a lot of experience against Doc, but I want to add that you can desynch via his pills much like you can desynch with Falco's lasers. Andre, I think your blizzard trick for approaching through Falco's lasers might have some merit against Doc.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Against Falco, it's run forward, short hop, and blizzard when Falco shoots a laser. Popo gets hit, Falco gets hit by blizzard, and Popo can often waveland in and grab Falco.
I think ICs might be able to do something similar against Doc. I doubt it would lead to a grab, but it could be a nice way of dealing with pills.
I think ICs might be able to do something similar against Doc. I doubt it would lead to a grab, but it could be a nice way of dealing with pills.
Oh that's nice, thx.
Did you read my earlier post about my adventures this weekend (the one that starts "Fly needs to come to POE)? I was hoping you might have something more to add to what Chok said?
Lixivium
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,689
You just realized this now? I thought I was doing those things when we played.You can't retaliate out of shield on Ganon, nor can you just WD up to him and jab. This is why you need to use aerials and know how to mix up your approaches.
Watch how Chu plays against Doc I think he handles them better than anyone else.
Well your ganon I could work with for some reason.
"use aerials" and "mix up approaches" just doesn't help me very much. I feel like I always walk into moves. I guess I need to DD grab or something. Are there any Ganon vs ICs matches that are instructional? I watched Joe Bushman vs Wobbles and he got beat as bad as I did haha.
"use aerials" and "mix up approaches" just doesn't help me very much. I feel like I always walk into moves. I guess I need to DD grab or something. Are there any Ganon vs ICs matches that are instructional? I watched Joe Bushman vs Wobbles and he got beat as bad as I did haha.
Lixivium
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,689
"Ganon is a character you can't be afraid to use your aerials against" - Trail (paraphrased)
What I mean is you can't stay on the ground ALL THE TIME against Ganon. If you see him take off with a full jump or double jump, the best thing to do might be to try to Up-air or N-air him. By the time his aerials reach the ground it will beat out anything you can do. Plus you can often follow up Up-airs with N-airs, B-airs or more Up-airs.
By "mix up approaches" I mean don't always approach with a WD. Sometimes dashing is better because you can then use dash attack, shield, Up-smash, aerials, etc.
Chu vs. Kage (Pound 3):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9yHvUIEsBc
Watch 1:20 - 1:30, 2:10 - 2:15
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Linguini beat Chu at Pound 4. I think it's just a bad match-up. 
I'm having this weird problem... recently I've been trying to play more defensively and patiently like Fly, but it hasn't really worked for me. Yesterday I regressed to my old mindless and offensive style and performed better than in most other recent tournaments. I considered what happened in all my tourney sets, and I think when I play aggressively I stumble on openings that I wouldn't have seen otherwise.
The problem with my playstyle is that, while in match-ups where the reward for landing a hit outweighs the risk of getting hit -- fox, falco, sheik, falcon, etc -- it works really well, in match-ups like peach and doc, the reward for these openings isn't so great (and it certainly doesn't outweigh the risk of getting hit). In order to start winning these harder match-ups I have to step up my playstyle and be patient without missing all my opportunities to capitalize on something.
In the doc match-up I find it especially hard because the pills control your ground space; usually in this kind of match-up I abuse my ground speed to find openings, but in this match-up if you make a movement you commit to it. B-air shuts down a lot of his approaches, and if you slow down you can control the match a lot more, but eventually I end up messing up, getting hit by a pill and separated/eating f-airs/d-smashes/being forced to shield/etc.
Sorry if I'm talking to myself... this is just a huge problem in my playstyle that I need to overcome if I ever want to start winning...
I'm having this weird problem... recently I've been trying to play more defensively and patiently like Fly, but it hasn't really worked for me. Yesterday I regressed to my old mindless and offensive style and performed better than in most other recent tournaments. I considered what happened in all my tourney sets, and I think when I play aggressively I stumble on openings that I wouldn't have seen otherwise.
The problem with my playstyle is that, while in match-ups where the reward for landing a hit outweighs the risk of getting hit -- fox, falco, sheik, falcon, etc -- it works really well, in match-ups like peach and doc, the reward for these openings isn't so great (and it certainly doesn't outweigh the risk of getting hit). In order to start winning these harder match-ups I have to step up my playstyle and be patient without missing all my opportunities to capitalize on something.
In the doc match-up I find it especially hard because the pills control your ground space; usually in this kind of match-up I abuse my ground speed to find openings, but in this match-up if you make a movement you commit to it. B-air shuts down a lot of his approaches, and if you slow down you can control the match a lot more, but eventually I end up messing up, getting hit by a pill and separated/eating f-airs/d-smashes/being forced to shield/etc.
Sorry if I'm talking to myself... this is just a huge problem in my playstyle that I need to overcome if I ever want to start winning...
Lixivium
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,689
Well yeah...of course it's a bad matchup. In fact Chu gets 2-stocked the next game. I just wanted to illustrate my points.Linguini beat Chu at Pound 4. I think it's just a bad match-up.
Yeah the game gets like that sometimes. When they can do what they want but you can't do what you want...it's real frustrating.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Hey Fly Scar was telling me that you SDI in your shield to either avoid getting grabbed or to get a shield grab.
How does that work?
How does that work?
OMG that is actually a good idea.
Yeah, shieldlag works just like hitlag. You can SDI and ASDI in your shield in order to get away from or get closer to someone.
Exact applications or good times to use it I really don't know, but I can't wait for his response.
Yeah, shieldlag works just like hitlag. You can SDI and ASDI in your shield in order to get away from or get closer to someone.
Exact applications or good times to use it I really don't know, but I can't wait for his response.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
I mentioned that a while ago to shieldgrab fox/falco...
Nintendude
Smash Hero
It seems like it would be really hard to avoid rolling by accident.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I was playing Plank in tournament. I try to bair oos, accidentally roll, and he rests me. Lol.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
lol wut Plank plays Jiggly now?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
kyu: that's one of the difficulties of maining ic's. but remember that sometimes high risk high reward playstyles can get you far, and you kinda have to do it if the matchup HAS to be played that way. look at someone like silentspectre... even though sometimes does rely on guesswork to tech-chase (though he does know how to cover like 3 or more options sometimes LOL) he still does extremely well. but because of his playstyle, he is inconsistent (at least on the national level)... he insists on finding ways to grab his opponent rather than nairing a lot. a lot of times he will dair in place, somehow knowing that someone will roll into it. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. falcon running at your face and jc grabbing is not really 'safe' at all...
however, it's extremely rewarding... and it's also intimidating. ic's grab and even their dash attack have this factor as well. a simple mixup between grab and dash attack has such powerful rewards that people get scared of ic's... when people start to get campy, the matchup usually becomes easier for ic's lol. in certain matchups (especially falco), the ideal way to play is offense vs offense... and that, IMO, makes the matchup very difficult, but also very exciting
for doc... of course you have to 'commit' to your approaches, but the rewards are so high for something as simple as a wd fsmash that sometimes there is no reason not to do it. he can't really punish it out of his shield, you know? if you space it right... the problem is if you MISS, then he'll get off. but if u get used to spacing and edgeguarding vs doc, you will find all those opportunities to hit him. i feel it can be a slow process to learn this matchup cuz theres a lot of specific nuances (especially in dealing with pills) but u got this
in matchups vs many top tiers... a lot of times as ic's you might feel that the opponent's character is just better... that we are fighting the uphill battle. but doc is a pretty even matchup IMO, i mean, we're a lot faster than him on the ground. he has very good spacing tools but when you play against ic's with doc, ic's wd speed is so **** scary lol.
when i play HMW, usually whoever wins is just the one who's feeling more confident lol. we both play the matchup quite well, he just has a lot more experience and has no problem approaching me.
however, it's extremely rewarding... and it's also intimidating. ic's grab and even their dash attack have this factor as well. a simple mixup between grab and dash attack has such powerful rewards that people get scared of ic's... when people start to get campy, the matchup usually becomes easier for ic's lol. in certain matchups (especially falco), the ideal way to play is offense vs offense... and that, IMO, makes the matchup very difficult, but also very exciting
for doc... of course you have to 'commit' to your approaches, but the rewards are so high for something as simple as a wd fsmash that sometimes there is no reason not to do it. he can't really punish it out of his shield, you know? if you space it right... the problem is if you MISS, then he'll get off. but if u get used to spacing and edgeguarding vs doc, you will find all those opportunities to hit him. i feel it can be a slow process to learn this matchup cuz theres a lot of specific nuances (especially in dealing with pills) but u got this
in matchups vs many top tiers... a lot of times as ic's you might feel that the opponent's character is just better... that we are fighting the uphill battle. but doc is a pretty even matchup IMO, i mean, we're a lot faster than him on the ground. he has very good spacing tools but when you play against ic's with doc, ic's wd speed is so **** scary lol.
when i play HMW, usually whoever wins is just the one who's feeling more confident lol. we both play the matchup quite well, he just has a lot more experience and has no problem approaching me.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Brandon said you are really fing hard to beat Andre
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Sometimes in teams. Also, he doesn't like fighting Ice with Sheik.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lol the same can be said about brandon
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I have an question about the Marth match-up. Can you CC non-tipped dtilts -> JC'ed grab? Also, using the same idea, can you CC his SH fair (rising) -> dash attack? I just realized how broken CC'ing is against Sheik, and now I'm really thinking about how I can deal with this Marth thing.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Was PC at Tourneyplay? I can't find the results thread...
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
No PC was not there.
1-M2k
2-Mango (drunk and went all Falcon, even in grand finals Sheik vs Falcon O_o)
3-Hugo or Lucky...I can not remember
1-M2k
2-Mango (drunk and went all Falcon, even in grand finals Sheik vs Falcon O_o)
3-Hugo or Lucky...I can not remember
Also, why are there 0 videos of you vs Marth? I think we could really get some tips from you with that.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i saw fly's friendlies with samus LMAO
fly u ****
step it up hugo
i didnt watch all the matches
but every video thumbnail had fly in a significant lead
fly u ****
step it up hugo
i didnt watch all the matches
but every video thumbnail had fly in a significant lead