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Social General Ice Climber Chat

Nintendude

Smash Hero
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Feb 23, 2006
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Fly, I was trying out your back-throw, jump Fair combo on Jiggs the other day but couldn't get it to work. It seemed like the Jiggs I was playing would always DI behind me and end up too far away. Is that typical? Any other characters I should try this combo on?
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Yeah, bthrow -> fair is DI-dependent. It's mostly good in situations where you think Jiggs will want to DI the direction you're facing. You can also sometimes catch people off-guard if you do it really quickly, kind of like how people will often miss the DI on Fox's or Jiggs' uthrow if they do it quickly enough.

I never do bthrow -> fair on any other characters. It might work on some other really lightweight characters like Kirby and G&W, but I've never tried it on them.

PEEF, I'll get to your question later today.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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Jun 25, 2008
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If they are DI'ing behind, shouldnt Dthrow fair work? If they get to expect bthrow fair and DI away, you should be able to Dthrow fair or uair.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Puff goes too far away if she DIs behind you. If Puff does DI behind you, then yeah, dthrow -> something is good. I usually do dthrow -> uair or nair, but every aerial except dair is probably fine.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Puff goes too far away if she DIs behind you. If Puff does DI behind you, then yeah, dthrow -> something is good. I usually do dthrow -> uair or nair, but every aerial except dair is probably fine.
I have a question about jiggs.

What DI does the Dthrow>jab CG work with? Can jiggs get dthrow>daired with certain DI? The jiggs players I have played against have usually been willing to mash buttons madly because they figure they cant be cged. Can either of these CGs work with certain DI?
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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I never do dthrow -> jab, but the only way I see it working on Jiggs is if she DIs away or does something weird like SDI the jab down and away.

I'm not sure if dthrow -> dair can work on her, but if it can, it would probably only be with DI away. In any case, I wouldn't try either of these against Puff since you generally have better options out of grabs against her.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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What are those options? Just smashes?

Dthrow jab has got to be useful at some point. I'll do some experimentation,
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
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choknater
i only use it to cg peach sometimes cuz i dont mess up the timing against her

the 2nd jab right?
 

ChivalRuse

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Have you guys messed around with dthrow -> Nana SH nair -> regrab on Peach/Marth at all at the lowest percents (0-20 or so)? It seems as reliable as dthrow dair and is a really fast way to get them towards the edge where you can switch into the handoff. My only concern is that DI'ing up might get them out of it.
 

Vanitas

Smash Ace
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Final Destination
so i was watching some videos of Chu Dat and Fly Amanita and they both seem to CP Pokemon Stadium often. I am a n00b so can anyone explain the advantages of CPing Pokemon Stadium?
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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I like it against floaties mainly because I have a lot space to maneuver horizontally and I can still kill off the top relatively easily. The width of the stage makes escaping or avoiding bad situations that characters like Puff can put you in more manageable than it is on most other stages. It's also nice against characters that struggle with the stage transformations more than ICs do, like Luigi.

Sometimes I'll just take somebody there if I want a stage that has a lot of the benefits of FD, but with platforms.
 

choknater

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i noticed the cause of my bad habits:

because of their built-in strengths, every character has a sort of optimal playstyle... and playstyles can sometimes be based on pace

i've noticed before that some characters can 'slow down the game' because of the way they move. i've experienced this with luigi, samus, and marths who fsmash a lot. their focus on pokes, priority, movement, and avoiding attacks, it takes a lot of concentration on spacing for faster but lower ranged characters like fox, sheik, or falcon to approach.

my 2 main characters are ic's and falco, and with all the thought i've put into getting rid of my bad habits with ic's, i noticed that my offensive habits are really not good for my ic's play.

when playing as falco, attacks are almost always better than his defensive options such as rolls or shield. his spotdodge, wd, roll, and shield actually make him MORE vulnerable than if he was to do something like a nair strafing backwards. heck, his best defensive option is his full hop. this is why, i feel, more laser-intensive falcos like mathos and lambchops don't do as well. his close range options are too good, and they can control the pace of the match. this is why when mango is shielding, instead of rolling he'll just short hop out and find a way to apply more pressure to his opponent. even when he is near someone, he just nairs or bairs toward them and spaces it perfectly, or even fsmashes people out of their dash dance. falco's offense becomes his defense

i think as ic's, i try too much to force my way into a hyper offensive playstyle. it's not that they shouldn't be aggressive, but it's just that i tend sometimes to just think on my feet and always play as if i'm playing a character like fox or falco. or sometimes when i'm playing against a puff or marth for a long time, i get TOO patient when i happen to face a spacie or a falcon.

i like ic's momentum because even though they have strong defensive options like nana blizzard or uair, their wd and dash attack are fast enough to apply pressure and mixup. they are a pretty balanced character, but i need to think more about the matchup at hand and ways to overcome my opponent using my strengths against their character's weaknesses. i also need to think about the strengths of the other character and ways to hinder them

tl;dr i think more, so i'm getting better. i'm not gonna lose the essence of wildnater, but i will try to stop playing ic's with a pace or thought process like i'm using falco.
 

PokemonMasterIRL

Smash Master
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Straight up, talking to Zhu about Chu and Fly, he said that Chu made it easy because he approaches , where Fly will quote "never approach "(lolz <3) and makes the match up hard as crap.

Ok maybe harder than crap, my crap has never been to hard.



Dthrown to walk foward uptilt is really easy, seems to mess up peoples DI when they DI the uptilt and then you smash them.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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Everything chok said applies to me but worse.

I mained Falco first, which gave me a terrible sense of spacing, and the belief that my approach is amazing, and I have good OoS options. Both of these are hardly true with ICs. This makes my ics space poorly, and focus too much on grabs and overused approaches =[
Hopefully I can work on my spacing as I learn to better understand this more limited character.

Also, Fly, how do you manage to play defensively as ICs? I know you shoot iceblocks, but if Falco gets to you, how do you deal with IC's poor defensive options vs Falcos monster approach? How do you deal with iceblock lag? What goal do you keep in mind?
(Also don't forget that little mini-guide on keeping ppl on the ledge if you get the time today)
 

ChivalRuse

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Ice blocks often incite Falco to full jump, where he's vulnerable to uairs, and while landing he can often be punished with dash dance grabs and spaced fsmashes. Also, I think wavedashing out of shield is much better than rolling to get away from his shield pressure / laser rush down.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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I mean, what if he doesn't full jump? And iceblock lag seems like a real hinderance to me...
 

ChivalRuse

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Full jump ice blocks have barely any landing lag. If you're worried about Falco closing in before the ice blocks start, you can wavedash back first. IC's' wavedash > Falco's running speed.
 

choknater

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falco's lasers and his ability to combo nana to death are his biggest assets against ic's, but he does not have the tools to completely shut ic's down as a character. there are ways to get through lasers and prevent combos

remember that ic's can punish to death not only from a grab, but from things like a dash attack to grab, or a uair combo, or some random fsmash to edgeguard

in matchups against the spacies, falcon, and sheik, ic's rely not only on spacing but on HEAVY, HEAVE punishment. that is our biggest strength, and from what i've seen fly always seems to do soemthing really cute, fancy, and very damaging whenever he has an opportunity. it's too good

my favorite way to get through lasers is by using a blizzard with nana lol. it depends on how far away falco is but its pretty reliable to me. otherwise just spam iceblocks cuz u will outdamage him. like chival said, he will have to full hop or go on the platforms to not get outdamaged.

his laser approach is pri gud haha, falcos a lot of the time are too scared to do it though cuz if they mess something up they will die, plus its just really hard to space approaches against ic's cuz if they wavedash falco can easily whiff something
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Also, Fly, how do you manage to play defensively as ICs? I know you shoot iceblocks, but if Falco gets to you, how do you deal with IC's poor defensive options vs Falcos monster approach? How do you deal with iceblock lag? What goal do you keep in mind?
(Also don't forget that little mini-guide on keeping ppl on the ledge if you get the time today)
Yeah, I have virtually nonexistent time management skills, so I rarely get things done by the time I initially planned to. I'll set aside some time tomorrow around noon to write that.

I think defensive play with ICs usually boils down to being close enough to your opponent to bait an approach and staying at about that range relative to your opponent. Like, against Falco, I like being a bit too far for him to just run up and nair me. I feel that when I'm in about that range, I can stop most of Falco's approaches relatively easily. I wouldn't say that I never approach since I will occasionally rush in if I think I can catch Falco with something like ftilt when he lasers, but it's generally better to just wait for Falco to come to you.

Ice block lag usually isn't that big of a problem. It's generally not too hard to recognize when you can shoot ice blocks against Falco with little risk of getting punished for it. Essentially any time he shoots a laser is a relatively safe time to shoot an ice block. If you're still concerned about the lag, you can also have the ICs walk forward and use ice block while on the ground when Falco lasers; that way, Popo gets hit and Nana shoots an ice block, which accomplishes most of the same goals as using ice blocks the usual way, but doesn't leave Popo open since lasers have very little hitstun.

If Falco manages to get too close for comfort, I usually just try to get away. If he's doing typical Falco stuff into my shield, I often simply roll backwards to relieve some pressure. Falco can punish this by running forward when you roll backward and shining or dairing at the end of the roll, but if Falco guesses incorrectly when to try to do something like this, you can often get away easily or punish him on reaction. Falco's grab is probably his most annoying approach. Try to avoid being in a position where Falco can easily SHL forward -> grab. If you shield the laser, there isn't much you can do against this. If you're not shielding, though, you can ftilt and while Popo will get hit by the laser, Nana's ftilt should hit Falco.

I'm not sure how to respond to the last question since it's somewhat vague.
 

choknater

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gkinfinity recorded videos of me doing cute stuff LOL

dont take the matches seriously, im mad sandbagging

im just trying to be cute lol
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Nice response.

How much of this applies to Fox?
Dealing with Fox's shield pressure is similar. That's about it.

I think I'm going to delay the edgeguarding thing more since I've been somewhat swamped with work lately and probably will be until Thursday. I want a better idea of what sort of information you want in it, too, since I don't think ordering the characters based on how difficult they are to keep off-stage accomplishes much.
 

choknater

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falco's fsmash is very hard to deal with

i've gotten used to getting dthrown and fthrown

but fsmashed a lot is pretty tough
 

ChivalRuse

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Isn't Falco's fsmash only unshield-grabbable if it's spaced near maximum range? It's important to stay out of that range and be aware of Falco's movements, because often he'll telegraph an fsmash. If it hits the back of your shield, you can simply bair oos.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
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Dealing with Fox's shield pressure is similar. That's about it.

I think I'm going to delay the edgeguarding thing more since I've been somewhat swamped with work lately and probably will be until Thursday. I want a better idea of what sort of information you want in it, too, since I don't think ordering the characters based on how difficult they are to keep off-stage accomplishes much.
Yeah. What methods they have to get off and how theyre countered. How easy it is and if it is worthwile to maybe skip the conventional edgeguard sometimes and focus on keeping them on the ledge until you can kill that way. Id think Link might be a good example there.
 

*P*L*U*R*

Smash Hero
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Dance to express, not impress!
Hey, is this IC tech skill video just gonna be you doing random desynchs because I was actually intending to do a 'tech-skill vid' with a bunch of desynch combos on computers. A lot of the ones I can do look hot as **** and don't start from a grab.

Oh yeah, long time no see?
 

PokemonMasterIRL

Smash Master
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so awhile ago I asked if there was away to cover a whole platform form beneath with a desync.

if you are on yoshi's or FOD you can pivot and then charge an upsmash, if you do it right you will both be facing different directions. kinda neat.
 

Cauterize

Smash Cadet
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Dec 19, 2008
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I was unable to find this anywhere on the boards so if this was already discovered then ignore me ;P

Earlier today I was playing and I came across this by accident. I guess you could call it "pseudo-ledge-canceled ice blocks" You need to be on a stage with platforms (Yoshi Story, Pokemon Stadium)

Here's a poorly drawn picture (yes the jump angle is prolly wrong but w/e)

Pokemon Stadium!


here's what you do.
You need to jump and ice block so that you land at the edge of the platform (where you would start to flail your arms if you were standing) You have to jump before the platform, not from under it. If done correctly there should be no lag when you land and you should be able to perform your next move immediately. An easy way to see if you're doing this right is to ice block right after or side B once you land.
 
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