Social General Ice Climber Chat

[choknater]

Hey guys not sure how well it works competitively but one thing I found out is that SHFF > perfect waveland > attack (usu jab > grab) works hella good vs campy marths.

i agree with this. it's the only way to really surprise him sometimes. they react quickly to wd or dash attack approaches, but they rarely expect a waveland to come after a short hop. i use this sporadically, but still pretty often.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I advise against frequently leaving the ground against Marth. The risk vs. reward of doing so is significantly in his favor.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I use wavelands primarily when I HAVE TO descend anyway from being put in the air by Marth, etc.

 

[Smasher89]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MnaamEYrZQ
Anything that should use more? or anything ideas about my play
I´ve had a "slump" in the matchup for some time getting a bad streak going(but might have THE idea to make puff broken in the matchup hehe). Might get more against CF vids later since it´s probably the matcfhup I really need to work on the most currently.

 

[choknater]

well with the sh waveland it's not like you're taking to the skies. you're just making a short hop about 2 or 1.5 sword lengths away from marth, so the waveland will reach him easily and it's not like he can punish the short hop if his focus is on spacing and not approaching us

of course there is risk in this approach, but because it's very difficult to scout, it is a legitimate way to surprise marth. a lot of times i just want to open him up, so i'll do this. sometimes i even straight up synched shffl nair in his face. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, that's how i like to play haha.

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ Smasher:

1. Stop full jumping. It'll get you uair *****.
2. Work on your oos. A lot of times Falcon got free hits on you because you were too stubborn to simply shield.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

So thoughts on the Samus match up form playing last night.

We dont get to really use Upair much vs Her since she is always on the ground, I think that is one of the reasons the match up is a bit hard. (for me personally)

To counter act this I look for chances to use Upair as much as I can vs her because if you are under her it beats all her options.

The only other thought I have was dash attack = at least 1 or 2 up airs so I started to dash attack more instead of maybe smashing or tilting.

The whole ideas of using up air more led me to upthrow >upair her or fthrow upsmash her when I knew I could not kill her with a grab and a smash, just to put her in the air to hopefully harrass her with upairs as she descends.
































So I know we all know how to charge fsmash from a grab and then smash them the other direction to mess with DI.



I just realized/did this: Grab then charge upsmash and then backthrow. The upsmash connects but it messes with peoples DI since you turn around as you smash/throw them. Pretty neat, another subtle trick to mix in.

This worked on a friend that is actually familiar with the matchup only reason I actually posted this.

 

[ChivalRuse]

f-throw -> up-smash works? Well, if so, doesn't the up-smash cancel out the 11% the throw would have done?

 

[Wobbles]

Chival: Dash forward and have her slightly charge the up-smash, then just time the release so you catch their toes.

PokemonMasterIRL: That's actually really slick because you can't DI the u-smash inward, you have to DI away. If that logic applies to reverse hits (but you know, reverses it) then that could be really awesome. And it would guarantee you u-smashes even at the edge of platforms WHILE messing up their DI, giving you a reason to do that over u-throw u-smash. I won't have a cube for a long while but I'll have to remember to try this!

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

PokemonMasterIRL: That's actually really slick because you can't DI the u-smash inward, you have to DI away. If that logic applies to reverse hits (but you know, reverses it) then that could be really awesome. And it would guarantee you u-smashes even at the edge of platforms WHILE messing up their DI, giving you a reason to do that over u-throw u-smash. I won't have a cube for a long while but I'll have to remember to try this!

I know right? Thats what I meant but just didnt say, its like a reverse on a reverse and if everyone is DIing to survive the typical Fsmash they are going to get wrecked by the upsmash and switched DI.


Just watched Lovage vs Fly and Fly vs S2J, I really want to see Wobbles vs Lovage.

And Fly you are doing some subtle new neat things, I enjoyed your matches.
You missed a few handoffs that made me sad inside. Get them next time.


Genesis soon whos all going? =)

 

[schoin]

I advise against frequently leaving the ground against Marth. The risk vs. reward of doing so is significantly in his favor.

Like Chok said though, it's not like you're that much at risk you'll be SHing quite a large distance away from marth and his sword, and even if marth did decide to sprint/WD forward you can always just do a premature waveland away from marth. Unless you're on a small stage like yoshi's where you don't have as much room to space long distances, I don't see that many risks using it. I mean it goes really far like over a quater of FD IIRC (but don't quote me on that).

 

[choknater]

miles i want u to show me that trick! let's play (so i can tap u in ic's dittos.... jk! so i can learn how to beat fly finally )

and yeah schoin it's definitely more than a quarter than fd

 

[Fly_Amanita]

And Fly you are doing some subtle new neat things, I enjoyed your matches.
You missed a few handoffs that made me sad inside. Get them next time.


Genesis soon whos all going? =)

Tech skill consistency is one of my bigger problems at the moment. I think I can get this taken care of soon enough, though. Lovage has gotten a lot better lately, which is awesome, because in addition to making a Socal a stronger region, he's been forcing me to adjust the way I play the Fox match-up for the better. The adjustments I'm making aren't all that huge, but this is a game where little tweaks here and there can pay off greatly. I still have a lot of bad habits I need to kill off, though.

I'm pretty sure I can make it to Genesis 2.

 

[choknater]

yeah i don't like the way oscar's fox plays, but it's gotten a lot better

 

[Grim Tuesday]

On the contrary, I like Oscar's Fox better than JMan/Lucky/etc...

Dark still da best though.

 

[choknater]

lucky and mango are my favorite foxes

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I quit Ice Climbers.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Lol what.

 

[choknater]

that sounds impossible

its like peach/ganon/samus/doc, the not fast but viable characters

once u main em

u cant escape!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I only picked them up because of the cool technical tricks, but I never get a chance to do any of them in matches.

It's just "Oh, I'm getting ***** by *insert gay tactic her*, oh cool, they ****ed up and I got a grab, now I can ****" rinse and repeat.

I'm just sick of it, Falco is so much more fun. :/

 

[choknater]

oh alright haha

i'm the opposite

i picked them up cuz of cool basics... fast wd, smashes, simple grab combos (which people learned to DI out of over the years. back in the day, nobody escaped basic dthrow dair). and all the new technical tricks kinda bothered me cuz i thought they were hard lol. im still bad at handing off heavy/mid weight chars

and yeah ic's get gayed sometimes but apart from peach's dsmash and fox's shine, i don't see much other stuff that would be too annoying...

i'd encourage you to hang in there but im biased LOL. falco is just as fun

 

[ChivalRuse]

I just play ICs because I have no talent with other characters.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My training partners main Fox, Peach and Sheik respectively >_>

Not very encouraging...

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sheik's not that bad.

Edit: You'd be putting yourself in essentially the same situation as Falcon.

Peach >> ICs.
Fox > ICs.
Sheik = ICs.

Versus.

Peach = Falcon.
Fox > Falcon.
Sheik > Falcon.

 

[choknater]

haha, i can understand that then

though, my training partners have ALWAYS been peaches so it's peculiar that i main ic's. i think the peaches are the reason i play all the characters lol, i just kept searching for ways to beat her.

i feel like it's just destiny. love em too much

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I play IC climbers because they are the most fun. And I feel they are still the character with the most to be discovered.

 

[choknater]

agr33d ic's too good

 

[Smasher89]

, i just kept searching for ways to beat her.

There is one easy way, play puff on like dl64 vs peach, get a bair hit, only do platform retreated bairs, peach like only option is stitches, which you just catch and use to combo to rest, easy timeout in worst case, but it´s still a win!
Have tried the charged up smash turnaround thing, usually I´m able to see a good result with practicing against a CPU but I guess this is no case of that. I wonder if this can make a upsmash kill as early as 130 % against a "right" Diing CF on DL...

EDIT: Just realized there is an animation that shows when to press for desynch in double squall!

 

[Binx]

Screenshot please

 

[Smasher89]

Basicly the end part animation.
I think it´s very easy to desynch out of squall, just hold y at the end and then do the desired move, not sure if holding it should matter, but it works for me =)

 

[Binx]

Thanks for the pic, I do that desynch pretty often but its more based on feel than anything else, so its cool to see exactly when to go for it.

 

[Turazrok]

I suck at IC techskill.

Number one reason I feel limited when I play the character.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Lol. I mean, all you need to be able to do is wavedash and short hop.

 

[Binx]

I suck at IC techskill.

Number one reason I feel limited when I play the character.

I used to feel that way as well, until one day I accepted that I was just bad at the game in a more general sense, sure there is a certain level of tech skill required to efficiently move around and some tech skill required for things like hand offs and such.

What I learned is that I didn't need to have perfect tech skill or do hand offs to win, what I had to do was properly use my movement through wavelanding on and off platforms and just space well, thats all, all you have to do to be REALLY good is space REALLY good. Anything else is just kind of a bonus, the better your tech skill is the less times you need to make favorable decisions to win, so in that regard its important, but I can kill people pretty consistently after only one or two hits while still being much less technical than other players.

I might not be in a position to win a tournament but I am 100% positive I could take a set off almost anyone if it really came down to it.

Lol. I mean, all you need to be able to do is wavedash and short hop.

haha basically.

 

[Turazrok]

If I wanted to win on spacing I'd play marth, yo.

 

[ChivalRuse]

ICs got gimmicks though yo.

 

[Binx]

If I wanted to win on spacing I'd play marth, yo.

If you are good with any character it's because you have good spacing, look at Mango playing Mario, he spaces his attacks perfectly behind shields, out just out of grab range, part of it is him being a mind reader but also a huge deal of practical skill in how he places his character and his attacks in a general sense.

My entire point was that you aren't going to win off of your character just having "better" moves, no character does that, every character has weaknesses and ways to cover those weaknesses, and if you want to be a good player that's what you have to focus on, you need to get around the Ice Climbers weakness of having relatively short range, or linear movement, by varying up the length and placement and speed of that movement to create openings for yourself, then using superior spacing and timing, take advantage of those openings. Ice Climbers ARE SOOOOO ****ING GOOD! They can compete with any character, all the extra tricks and **** we have is amazing and fun, but your bread and butter better just be playing smart. I spent almost 2 years working on the Ice Climber match up guide, because I love the character, I'm passionate about the game, and I felt like I could help give back to our portion of the community, we play a deep game, we play a deep character, we play a character that can go even with anything if you do it smart. And the character that we all play can be played in any style you like, I was just trying to demonstrate that you don't need to rely on technical gimmicks to win games, you can play however you enjoy.

To sum up what I said above, you can play Ice Climbers however you enjoy playing them, and be successful with lots of different styles relying on all kinds of different techniques, you should never be discouraged because you aren't technical enough, because you can be successful regardless.

~Binx

PS: s to all

 

[ChivalRuse]

Falco's weaknesses are pretty tough to identify though. <3

 

[Binx]

IMO Fox and Falco are kind of different from the rest of the cast in the fact that, while they don't have a lot of weaknesses in any particular situation they are very easy to combo and in many situations easy to edgeguard, also small mistake on their part can lead to low percent deaths. At the highest levels of competition these weaknesses still come into play.

They are pretty set apart from other characters in many ways, but not broken or anything. I love the melee metagame, its so fun.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I did pretty well at yesterday's tourney, although S2J beat me convincingly.

Some things I think I need to a little differently against Falcon, starting with the general:

-Land more combo starters. Isolated hits here and there are okay, but Falcon wins the attrition war since he lives longer than ICs and kills them at lower percentages.

-Don't let Falcon push me to the side. Stomps through a platform are very hard to punish and typically lead to at least one IC taking a lot of damage or dying. Incidentally, when this does happen, I either need to come up with a better way of punishing stomps through platforms or just not challenge them; I think the latter is more practical.

-Mix up my grab game a little more. I actually do a decent job at this, but there are times when I keep going for dthrow -> dair when I already know other things will work more reliably.


Specifics:

-Usmash more. It should beat most of Falcon's preferred approaches well and it leads to good juggles. It's a little risky, but the reward should be worth it. In any case, at low percentages, it's definitely better than fsmash, which I tend to do a lot since it also beats Falcon's approaches; however, fsmash doesn't lead to much unless it puts Falcon in a position to be edgeguarded.

-A little less bair and better follow-ups after nair. While nair does tend to lead to things, they're typically not guaranteed. After I nair or nair -> jab, if I don't think I have a guaranteed follow-up based on where my opponent is, I should probably wait for a roll or double jump and react accordingly. Bair is good for edgeguarding Falcon, but it's really not that useful otherwise. It won't KO him unless he doesn't expect it at all and DIs it terribly, but that's uncommon against good players, and it never leads to anything except at really low percentages, when you can sometimes get away with goofy things like bair -> wavedash dsmash/grab.

- Better retention of the center. This goes along with the "don't let Falcon push me to the side" bit, which should be a subcategory of this bullet point, but I'm lazy and not going to reformat things. It also fits under "general" better, but eh. When Falcon is to my side, I often approach. This is understandable, but I need to use better judgment about when I forfeit the position; what are the risks associated with approaching the sides and what are the rewards? Good players are extremely cautious about the ICs' edge tricks, so I can't gamble on random grabs or fsmashes/nairs that much. Plus, approaching people at the sides is often inherently risky. If I think Falcon might drop the ground from a platform (which most players really aren't likely to do as Falcon; I need to stop assuming they will) and they don't, then I'm in a position where Falcon can stomp away, assuming the platform is low enough, which it is on most stages you want to fight Falcon on. If I go for a full jump punish and miss, Falcon gets a big combo. Granted, I could DI those better, but even if I do, I still take a lot of damage and end up in a terrible position, so I don't think this actually makes much of a difference.

On the other hand, I'm sometimes likely to forfeit control of the center when I don't need to. For the most part, I'm good about not doing this unnecessarily, but I think I am more capable of fighting for control of the position then I give ICs credit for. For example, usmash would probably be good for maintaining control of the position, as it likely will stop many of the ways Falcon likes to get in.

-Learn the timing for shield-grabbing raptor boost a little better. This also isn't that big a deal, but it's something I have no excuse for not doing.