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Social General Ice Climber Chat

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
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My friend Monkeybear has quite a mean Pikachu, and he thinks that it's a harder match-up than Sheik.

In other news: Why does no one care about the new infinite that Chu discovered (presumably accidentally, lol)?
 

choknater

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...infinite? i thought it was just an accidental freeze regrab, and the blizzard freeze is really weird

most characters pop out of freeze higher than that too
 

Grim Tuesday

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But you can grab them out of the popping out animation, so the height they fly after releasing doesn't actually matter, it just makes it harder to time.

I think it was accidental at the time, but it's possible to do it over and over.
 

ChivalRuse

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I think all of those claims are extremely dubious.

Wobbles, your movement was really smooth that tourney. Good stuff.
I don't think it really matters. My evaluation of the 2 matchups wasn't supposed to be law. Just an opinion.

Nobody plays Pikachu anyway, and barely anyone plays ICs.
 

choknater

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hm cool haha

but dont chars need to be high percent in order to freeze? and will fthrow blizz always freeze?

wobbles vids are solid ahhhhhh. doh needs to play the matchup better, hes pretty good at it, but ah man. wobbles ur punishment is mad good
 

Grim Tuesday

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Fthrow blizzard always freezes at around 80%.

The timing is strict though, I've been doing it by:
1. Grab
2. Pummel de-sync
3. Blizzard
4. Start mashing forward straight away.

So yeah, it only works at KO percents, but it looks flashy and is technically infinite if Wobbling and it's variants are banned, and you are playing on a v1.1/1.2 copy of the game so you can't do the Up Tilt infinite.
 

Nintendude

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I have a bunch of questions, Wobbles.

First on this match:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O67KNmKacJw

1:06 - is the roll on purpose knowing that there's a down-smash coming and that if you roll it will be easy to punish? Or was that just a lucky mistake?
3:34 - looks like you attempted to roll behind the down-smash again but only Nana wasn't in shield stun. I ask about this because I often get down-smashed or dash-A'd when I try to roll behind a down-smash that I know is coming.

part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cqirf7Pkes
1:41 - how reliably does that work? (CC counter her dair -> dsmash attempt)
1:59 - is Bair -> Uair legit at that percent or was DoH just slow at getting the Nair out?

If you didn't ban Brinstar, what stage DID you ban? Rainbow Cruise? I would think Cruise would be better for ICs than Brinstar in the Peach matchup.

vs. Axe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTkzdnYl32g

3:10 - vs. Fox (and other light chars) do you press down to start the handoff and then immediately input shield to cancel Nana's crouch?
4:57 - did you up-B instead of forward-B knowing that it might be safer due to Nana's hitbox?

GFs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZZU8oXL2TA

2:26 - why fsmash instead of usmash? I usually like to usmash in that situation so I can get at least an uair in.
3:34 - unrelated but how did Axe up-B upwards twice?
7:27 - do you have any idea why those invisible ceilings happened?

I was really impressed by how you played in these sets. Lots of good reads, tricks, and use of Fair for protection while falling. Is that usually so reliable?
 

Grim Tuesday

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Double Quick Attack is a tech that's in this game and 64. Basically, you can do the first part and then press diagonally AGAIN with the right timing and he'll do it in that direction again.

Invisible Ceiling happens if you block or counter an attack and then hit the opponent within a certain number of frames. In this case: Shield > Up Smash.
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
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Nintendude: OH GOD QUESTIONS.

-Rolling backwards works really well against d-smash because of how far it travels. Rolling forwards is not so good.
-Not sure which part you're referencing that part of the video seems like something else lol. But I haven't always had success with rolling through moves, it's generally risky but DoH is very aggressive and will often attack up close rather than retreat and re-space like a lot of Peaches, so if I think he's going to pressure against me I will try rolling through. Later I get a roll through his f-smash and a punish off that too, something you normally can't punish from your shield.

--I banned FD against him because it is probably his best level along with Brinstar and I actually have lots of trouble fighting him there. Platforms let me force him to play higher than normal and give him reason to mix up his float height, which gives me more openings, so I really dislike FD against Peach. Nana also doesn't go into her platform recovery AI there, so she will ALWAYS jump at the same height and makes it extra easy to beat her up, which DoH is good at.
--It only worked because it looked like he was going to land down that slope, giving me a few extra frames to get the move out. Normally it wouldn't work at all unless he ****ed up horribly but as you could see that d-smash came out before he had a chance to do anything except shield (and no Peach would ever shield in that situation so I was confident d-smashing)
--My fast-fall kept me safe from a n-air anyhow, but really I just went with the flow lol.

vs Axe

--Yes, the sound from it also makes a really good enhancer for my timing of the grab. I hear down->shield->A as a pretty specific timing and it helps a lot.
--Yes again, I figured Nana's arc would prevent him from being able to get a shine-spike or ledge-hopped aerial.

--yeah I dunno about the f-smash, I probably figured it would cover both DIs since I wasn't really reacting well to them that tourney
--Not entirely sure haha. Pretty awesome though!

last point:

Yeah retreating f-air while you fall makes punishes difficult for the other guy, and if you mix it up with an advancing one sometimes you can bait hits. It IS punishable (especially for marths and sheiks and CF) but it's better than nothing. Blizzard can work but if they DI in and just mash an attack they'll get you anyhow. So I like f-air a lot for those reasons.

chok:

Yeah it's funny, since DoH is my most common practice partner and he's so good at avoiding IC grabs, he's enhanced my normal punishes way beyond what they used to be. At the same time my grab game has suffered a bit, you see me dropping lots of handoffs and randomly screwing up charged smashes that I didn't screw up before. I kind of like the newer me though it's cooler to watch :D and it has a much better SoPo game.

also we have a pretty experienced interpersonal metagame against one another, how he plays and thinks against me does not really represent how he plays against other people lol (my bomb catch on Brinstar is me having LOTS of experience against his turnip and bomb drops, for instance). If you think he's not the best Peach vs. ICs in the country, then I invite you to give fighting him a shot! He's the one I am least confident of fighting in tournament. our friendlies are very even I just seem to have a better tournament presence than his which is why, even though we're usually 50/50 (or more in his favor actually) outside of tournies, when we meet during them I beat him more often. Don't sleep on him though! I highly doubt you will see him losing to any other ICs any time soon :D
 

Fly_Amanita

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I think I'm going to start trying ICs vs. Peach again, since I haven't done that in a few months and since I think i'm mildly less horrible at it than I used to be. My Sheik is just lousy and my only other decent option is my own Peach, which actually isn't completely atrocious, but needs more experience.

Since I've been having the most fun playing Peach lately, I'd actually like to just get good at the ditto, but alas, that requires practice.
 

john!

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i'd give you guys peach tips... but they may someday lead to my own demise :c

in all seriousness though, you have two options: tough it out like wobbles and learn the matchup, or pick a secondary (fox/marth/falcon/sheik all **** peach). the advantage to learning the matchup is that the peach player might have a secondary, and the advantage to using a secondary is that it's less of an uphill battle.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Here's a Peach tip: Become a homophobe.
If Ken's Peach theory is correct (which it obviously is 100% of the time), the more tolerant people become of homosexuals, the more people will come out of the closet and use Peach. If we put all our effort into gay hating, we won't need to learn the match-up!
 

Fly_Amanita

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If you can actually use Fox, then kudos. Using another character is probably a good call; I've been doing it a while with mixed results.

Against most Peaches, I just go Sheik or ditto them since it's less stressful than going ICs and tends to be pretty easy unless the Peach is extremely good, at which point my usual strats break down a bit. My Sheik will typically do okay a while, but that stops once the Peach realizes how stupid my Sheik is. My Peach is considerably better, but challenging good Peaches at the ditto is a ballsy move that I'm not entirely comfortable with.

I guess the main reason I'm nervous about just going ICs is that my movement is slow. I've never been a particularly fast player; I just try to find good positions and milk them to the best of my ability. I can't just maintain ground like that against Peach, though, and I find myself unable to punish things that I would be able to otherwise if I could actually move well.

I might actually get a copy of Melee soon; being able to practice sliding around would be nice.
 

ChivalRuse

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I don't like the Fox or Sheik matchup against Peach. I'd rather go Marth. Or just stay ICs.

Fox is pretty good though. Maybe I'll try my Fox out more in the future.
 

Wobbles

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Yeah Fly, if you wanna beat Peach you gotta be all slippery like me.

Reason DoH agrees with me regarding my opinions on the Peach matchup is mostly because of how damn fast they can be.
 

john!

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Here's a Peach tip: Become a homophobe.
If Ken's Peach theory is correct (which it obviously is 100% of the time), the more tolerant people become of homosexuals, the more people will come out of the closet and use Peach. If we put all our effort into gay hating, we won't need to learn the match-up!
too far, man

too far!

people already think we're gay for liking MLP, no reason to make it worse on me lol
 

Binx

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I have trouble vs this Oregon peach named Artiface, I feel like I could beat him with my fox, but I don't like the match up because if I miss a single L cancel I could die.

Also I am much more confident in my spacing and reaction to unusual things with my Ice Climbers. I actually think Peach vs ICs is a pretty fun match up all in all, but sometimes I feel like I have to play a lot more defensively in spots I would normally not like to.
 

Smasher89

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I realised something I haven´t been using in this game, but made me very dangerous when using it in brawl, since it´s so legit for some reason.

Experimenting with non smash neither (Maybe late)throw options, will be harder to react to since mixed up timing and Nana is still free to move when the release is initiated (taking away the purpose of mashing anyone?, forcing a certain kind of DI every time).
The reason I did it in brawl was so I could know how the situation where IF I messed up a CG, and still follow it up since the followup pressure is always guarantied anyway, made me get alot of possibilitys to punish in the way I preffered.
Dashgrab with Nana is the first that comes to mind, but dashattack is probably better against [insert overhyped character here].
 
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wobbles has a point.... lol it seems majority of the character list has a legit shot and knockin out ICs. its a ****ed up world when ur the ICs but someone has to freeze hell over.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Alright then, how am I supposed to avoid Nana dieing as soon as she gets hit by shine?

How am I supposed to avoid getting hit as soon as Fox touches my shield?

If the answer to those questions is "Don't get hit"...

How am I supposed to avoid getting hit?
 

choknater

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honestly... vs fox...






hit him first. thats all i can say. that doesnt mean rush him down, it doesnt mean avoid him till u can punish a mistake... it kinda means both. just hit him before he hits u!
 

Wobbles

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Against Fox, there's not a lot you can do to keep Nana from dying to shines. It's kind of her "thing."

But what you generally have to focus on is just purely reading his movement and syncing yours up with his. He runs in, you slide back at the same time and stick your hammer out to stuff his approach. He jumps over your head, you jump into him with your u-air and then DI away afterwards to make sure he won't be trading or landing first to hit you. Until you can knock him down or land a solid grab you cannot really commit to anything.

Lightshield helps, WD out of shield helps bait his aggressive approaches, tilts and jabs can put lots of little bits of stun that will screw up his tech and maybe get you a lucky opening. It's a hard road and a lot of it is biding your time and being careful.

But you didn't even mention camping! I can't wait to see how much fun you have with that.
 

linkoninja

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Hey guys I'm new it Ice Climbers and I was just wondering, what are the requirements to de-synch? For example do you need to be on stage? Is there a certain distance where you can/cannot de-synch? etc?
I find that Climbers would be much better if they could desynch while offstage (I don't think I've ever seen this) so that Nana could go save Popo or vice-versa. So yeah just looking to learn. Also apart from Wobbling, what other uses does de-synch bring?
 

Binx

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There are ways to desynch with a squall hammer recover, and it can happen during aerials if you barely knick a shield and sometimes other ways, Nana can miss l cancels you hit, the more you play the ICs the more you are able to just feel or know its going to happen to take advantage of it. Its one of the many very fun things about the character for me.

Desynching creates ways to vary pressure or hit certain timings that wouldnt normally work, they can be used to confuse opponents or for more effective edgeguards. You mention wobbling specifically but any grab desynch can lead to a great deal more damage than a standard combo or standard grab and smash.

Some awesome things I've seen and done with desynchs are random double smashes or smashes with Nana doing an utilt which can lead into some nasty damaging combos, Wobbles doing hand offs, fthrow vs fox suicing nana off the edge with a blizzard that kills him. dthrow fair into tech chases or into grabs that kill.

quick dash dance blizzards to zone out marth's fair pressure and force him to jump away, if you get correct reads in these spots you can make huge damage come from seemingly no where.

ICs are awesome! ♥ ♥ ♥
 

john!

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wd oos
dsmash
grab to f/usmash
jab

get those down and it's a solid start imo, but don't be afraid to try new stuff, ic players are known for having very different playstyles

and WATCH VIDS
 

X1-12

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I spent ages practising the chaingrabs and stuff but then in a real match, even against a scrub its like I can't do anything

/edit: John that's handy. How safe is Jab on a shield?
 
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