Social General Ice Climber Chat

[choknater]

ok i always rant after training

finally back at my apartment in daly city where i have access to my wii! i can practice more now haha

well, at my last tournament gsg2 i lost to fly and light in bracket. so i'm workin on those matchups. for peach i've always played a lot of characters so it usually depends on how i feel on which character i counter pick her with... i have a feeling i might choose to peach ditto them since that is actually one of my strong matchups. peaches are always very experienced and specialized in all their matchups except the ditto where u basically have to just outsmart the other peach. but again, depends on how i feel.

i don't plan on doing the ic vs peach matchup in tournament unless i feel they are really inexperienced in the matchup, which really paid off for me against alan at dgdtj

for the ic ditto... i was tryin to teach myself a lot of stuff today, heres some stuff i've learned
- dash attack is a very powerful move. it is fast enough to catch WD away, and puts the other ic in a terrrrrible position. nana is easily uair comboed, but hopefully popo is the one who ends up in a position to be uaired.
- nana getting hit by dsmash is like getting hit by peach's fair. just a crazy knockback move that basically ensures nana's death.
- this matchup is very hard because u basically have to know 3 matchup situations and what to do in each

1. 2 ic's vs 2 ic's
this is really hard and very random. it feels even more offensive than a falco ditto where you have terrible defensive options but excellent offensive options and whoever gets the first hit wins. but unlike a falco ditto, it doesnt usually result in death (well maybe for nana) but instead it usually ends up with a very advantageous position of 2v1 or 2 together vs 2 separated.

i just kinda imagine it like a falco ditto... u gotta set some sort of pace with ice blocks, and it can be kinda random who gets the momentum first but it's possible to outplay the other ic with ice blocks. then gotta find a way to get in, i like wd grab, wd jab, wd dsmash, dash attack, or sh fair. u can also get in sneakily by using nana blizz, popo squall, nana smash (i like usmash because when at least one of the opponent's ic's are falling down, it gives you a lot of time to position yourself. usmash is also more accurate than other smash attacks after a solo squall) but this is really random and risky. basically i just need more experience vs ic's (get at me miles!!) so that i can feel a greater sense of control rather than letting the matchup just feel random all the time.

2. sopo vs 2 ic's
this is obviously extremely difficult but there are ways to get in. basically all of ic's approaches make them a little bit vulnerable, so it's best for 2 ic's to play more defensively like with blizzblocks. sopo can shoot his own ice blocks but obviously since 2 ic's can shoot more projectiles the sopo has to approach. i'm not really sure HOW popo can do this, i usually just play intuitively until i find openings... not sure what they are on paper. again i need more experience and i need to take mental notes of what i can do

2a. 2 ic's vs sopo
just blizzblock camp sopo, or desynch blocks if he decides to wd/dash dance a lot. the advantage is HUGE and u USUALLY dont wanna risk your advantageous position with bad approaches, but if u can find good ways to approach him then by all means. the best strategy is to try to force him above you (not very hard if u keep using ice blocks) then keep him up there with dash attacks/uair/usmash, and also punish some landings with grab. if u happen to get separated...

3. sopo vs sopo
i think everyone's sopo has a different flavor but in the end they are all the same. popo's strength is in his mobility, so in order to keep the matchup from being too erratic, popo should really be patient and pay attention to the other sopo while also focusing on moving in an unpredictable way. assuming both sopo players are equally good at zoning and positioning, i feel like the most patient sopo will always win.

ic ditto's. hard stuff

this is an important matchup for me cuz the last 6 tournaments i've been to i've always faced one. boback, fly, or GKL (merced ic). fly beat me very convincingly at dgdtj so i hope to do better next time

 

[smakis]

PEEF and smakis from t3h newd school

to my defense I started playing smash64 online in 2006 (might have been 2007, can't remember lol). I didnt actually start playing melee until end of 2009 =D (before that I spent like 8 months wavedashing around playing a friend of mine who was....crap =P)

 

[ChivalRuse]

<3 Smash 64 online.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Project Melee is actually pretty fun.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I had an odd idea while walking to my apartment.

We all know that ICs can desynch via differences in shield-stun. It's generally hard to control, but it's easier to do intentionally when doing the light-shield trick, since attacks tend to hit Nana's shield a bit before they hit Popo's in that case. What I'm thinking of doing is, after getting hit with a well-spaced move while shielding, have Nana short hop ice block/blizzard OoS while Popo remains in his shield. I think that if done well, this would be about as fast, if not faster than something like wavedash OoS -> jab/grab/dsmash, plus it lets Popo remain in his shield, so you don't need to do anything that could leave him vulnerable until you see how well Nana's attack worked.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Does anyone have AR or access to AR?

 

[ChivalRuse]

One of my friends, MooseEatsBear, does. He's taking requests, so what did you want to look up?

 

[Kyu Puff]

It would be awesome if he could try any of these:

- U-tilt chaingrab; I think this should be an infinite on every character if you could do it frame perfectly, but it doesn't really work when I try it myself...

- Desynch b-air shield pressure. I posted a frame chart a few pages back; I just think it would be really cool to see in real time.

- Up+b ledge stalling--does Nana stay invulnerable the whole time if you do it perfectly?

There's other stuff I've wanted to test in the past, but I forget most of it...

 

[ChivalRuse]

Those are very technical questions (in fact, I actually don't know what you mean by "u-tilt chaingrab"). They might be a little too much for him to handle.

 

[Kyu Puff]

D-throw -> u-tilt (so the weak hit of u-tilt catches them the frame they're released from d-throw) -> regrab (before the strong hit knocks them away)

On Marth it should be: D-throw -> start u-tilt with Nana (frame 24 of d-throw) -> grab (frame 44)

Do you think he'd be able to do the ledge stall? I've seen his videos for other characters, but I don't know how long those took him to make...

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's worth a shot. I'll hit him up and let you know if he wants to put some time into it.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I am pretty sure it does not work on Marth.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hmm...

You know that position you sometimes get in that is like this?:

_____>_<_____

If you grab the opponent (so they are in the middle of the Climbers), you can make Nana start rapidly jabbing. This may or may not lead to a grab release infinite, not sure.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I am pretty sure it does not work on Marth.

If it works on Peach, frame-wise, it should work on Marth. The timing would be different though.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

for the ic ditto... i was tryin to teach myself a lot of stuff today, heres some stuff i've learned
- dash attack is a very powerful move. it is fast enough to catch WD away, and puts the other ic in a terrrrrible position. nana is easily uair comboed, but hopefully popo is the one who ends up in a position to be uaired.
- nana getting hit by dsmash is like getting hit by peach's fair. just a crazy knockback move that basically ensures nana's death.
- this matchup is very hard because u basically have to know 3 matchup situations and what to do in each
This is such a super dynamic matchup that it makes NO sense. Every phase of this matchup makes certain moves viable and other ones not so much.

I haven't played IC dittos against a good IC in a long time though so I may be wrong with my viewpoints.

1. 2 ic's vs 2 ic's
this is really hard and very random. it feels even more offensive than a falco ditto where you have terrible defensive options but excellent offensive options and whoever gets the first hit wins. but unlike a falco ditto, it doesnt usually result in death (well maybe for nana) but instead it usually ends up with a very advantageous position of 2v1 or 2 together vs 2 separated.

i just kinda imagine it like a falco ditto... u gotta set some sort of pace with ice blocks, and it can be kinda random who gets the momentum first but it's possible to outplay the other ic with ice blocks. then gotta find a way to get in, i like wd grab, wd jab, wd dsmash, dash attack, or sh fair. u can also get in sneakily by using nana blizz, popo squall, nana smash (i like usmash because when at least one of the opponent's ic's are falling down, it gives you a lot of time to position yourself. usmash is also more accurate than other smash attacks after a solo squall) but this is really random and risky. basically i just need more experience vs ic's (get at me miles!!) so that i can feel a greater sense of control rather than letting the matchup just feel random all the time.
The first person to go in their shield/get knocked in the air is usually the one that loses. If you grab a dual IC with a dual IC, just Uthrow and pepper them with Uairs since IC can literally do NOTHING against it. Sooner or later they'll desynch from it and you can decide who to kill from there, depending on positioning.

I also feel like there is nothing that IC can do defensively against a desynched Blizzard or a desynched Fsmash. I feel like the WD -> Dash away Nana Fsmash approach would be really good, especially if you are fast enough to wavedash BACK in with Popo while Nana's Fsmash is covering you to put more pressure on. If they shield the smash, make Popo grab one of them, Bthrow and make nana cover the secondary climber's options with another smash or a blizzard or something. If they retreat like wD back or something, you're already desynched so you can make Popo throw an Ice block or you could dash attack them out of their wavedash. OR (this is silly as hell but I'm fairly positive that it'll work sometimes) you could leapt in with Popo and Blizzard. It sounds stupid, I know but here are my thoughts. You leap in with Blizzard after they WD away from you, already forfeiting stage control. Most Ice climbers that I see(myself included sometimes) usually try to roll behind you. But since Popo is doing the Blizzard, Nana is gonna run up to him and do a blizzard behind Popo, covering the living daylights out of that roll option. They'll get tickled by the blizzard by the time Popo is ready to attack so you can go in with Popo and **** them up. Of course, this loses to them not rolling behind you. lol
This will happen like once out of every set of IC dittos you will ever play.

2. sopo vs 2 ic's
this is obviously extremely difficult but there are ways to get in. basically all of ic's approaches make them a little bit vulnerable, so it's best for 2 ic's to play more defensively like with blizzblocks. sopo can shoot his own ice blocks but obviously since 2 ic's can shoot more projectiles the sopo has to approach. i'm not really sure HOW popo can do this, i usually just play intuitively until i find openings... not sure what they are on paper. again i need more experience and i need to take mental notes of what i can do
I feel like in this matchup, Sopo is reduced to doing ACBairs, Ftilts, the occasional Dsmash and Bthrows. Yes, Sopo can grab a dual IC. You have to grab and immediately Bthrow though. The Bthrow is weird because I feel like either A: the Bthrow hitbox pushes the other IC too far away to shieldgrab or B: when Popo bthrows, it pulls the primary climber out of Nana's leash range so you lose all control of nana. I haven't figured out which of the two it is though. Either way, you can Bthrow and then chase popo with Aerials or you can Bthrow and then just Dsmash Nana away.
Sopo vs Dual climbers usually boils down to getting rid of Nana as fast as you can, from my experience. Because there is always the off-chance of you messing up in killing the primary climber and nana coming in with an opportunistic dash attack/blizzard/whatever, putting you in the air/stun and then Popo grabs you and they chaingrab you or something and you die.
If you have Popo high in the air or something, just kill nana. You can ShfflNair/WDFtilt/WDdsmash her across the world and back and then Dsmash her and kill her. She misses techs and doesn't ever DI anything ever. It's a much better choice than trying to fight them because Sopo's options are super limited against Dual IC

2a. 2 ic's vs sopo
just blizzblock camp sopo, or desynch blocks if he decides to wd/dash dance a lot. the advantage is HUGE and u USUALLY dont wanna risk your advantageous position with bad approaches, but if u can find good ways to approach him then by all means. the best strategy is to try to force him above you (not very hard if u keep using ice blocks) then keep him up there with dash attacks/uair/usmash, and also punish some landings with grab. if u happen to get separated...
Not much to say here. Dual climbers versus Sopo is like impossible to lose on a stage like FD. On platformed stages, Sopo is much peskier to catch because Sopo in general is much more mobile than Dual ICs because Dual ICs usually worry about Nana falling behind. Control the platforms and you'll tap Sopo though.

3. sopo vs sopo
i think everyone's sopo has a different flavor but in the end they are all the same. popo's strength is in his mobility, so in order to keep the matchup from being too erratic, popo should really be patient and pay attention to the other sopo while also focusing on moving in an unpredictable way. assuming both sopo players are equally good at zoning and positioning, i feel like the most patient sopo will always win.

ic ditto's. hard stuff

Couldn't have said it better

comments in bold

 

[ChivalRuse]

I love IC dittos.

 

[choknater]

thanks for the comments plur some of those tactics are pretty helpful

i WOULD love them if i had just a little more exp haha. i've never like, spent a day of friendlies playing them. only friendlies at tournaments where i always feel a little bit of pressure. i should focus more on learning from them haha

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

So this is the possibly new CG
(Low quality vid sorry, also I dont 0-death the peach but this gives you an idea)
I give you the FAB

Final Atomic Buster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ9BSnaY27U

Breakfast With Zangief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk45TJqb9SE

^_________________^

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Awesome, thanks for posting that PMIRL!

 

[ChivalRuse]

That cg looks awesome.

I'd imagine SDI or even regular DI would get Peach out of it. But it's still a cool discovery.

 

[Kyu Puff]

You can't SDI the weak hits of u-tilt in 1.0 or 1.1, so it's just version specific. The hard part is spacing the u-tilt correctly (if they DI away Nana has to move forward or else it misses on some characters) and the timing is character-specific.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Interesting.

 

[Smasher89]

Learned a few things against peach this weekend.
Peach is hard to hit but if you check old vids of Chu and realizes why his attacks hit, that´s a good starting point(will only explain in pm).
Add in iceblock and blizzard pressure and it gets a few tools to damage her, desynching is a way to keep having a close to constant pressure on her(which is needed to get hits in).
Never stand totally still.

And as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the uptilt was good for some reason and it really is, since it keeps her pressured when above, pops her up in the air and gives some more free damage, probably even beats her spotdodge, but that should be checked by framedata (wd in to uptilt on spotdodge).

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I just heard Fly beat M2k...

 

[ahchoomattchu]

Fly Amanita defeats M2K in Singles Bracket. - Melee 11 minutes ago via tio tournament organizer

It was 3-0

HYPE

 

[Grim Tuesday]

**** YES FLY I LOVE YOU

Spoiler

caps

 

[choknater]

fly my hero <3 good luck vs zhu!

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm very content with my performance at WGF, although Mango's Falcon still ***** me depressingly hard.

edit: The 1.0 utilt CG is really easy on Samus. I tried it a bit in the morning and couldn't get it on most of the important characters, but I was able to get it down on her with little effort.

 

[choknater]

proud of you man!!

on that note though, i find it refreshing that the metagame is catching up to mango. i think he's been waiting for this, and peepee happens to be an opponent he really likes too. even if mango throws matches or whatever in finals, i think peepee is finally the only person so far that has caught up/is catching up to him. hbox is up there, mew2king on a non-brawl day. socal's constantly improving too. love where melee's going!

fly i'm glad you're constantly showing me that ic's have the potential to win a national even after chudat faded away and wobbles' attendance has dwindled. ima take notes from your matches!

also, i finally got the fly trick down and performed it on my friend yesterday HAHAH. i did a handoff to the charged fsmash cg, blizzard, kill

 

[Vts]

wobbles attendance hasn't dwindled its just he's now in texas winning those tournaments instead

now us other IC players need to step it up also idk if you guys know iori the no main master but he's won past 3-4 tournaments i've been to with ICs also.

he loves them but his play style is really different

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm trying to rep Climbers in Australia... Though that won't get me very far :/

I need to start recording vids so you guys can tell me what I'm doing wrong xD

 

[choknater]

wow iori plays ic's now? cool hahah.

well yeah we all have diff playstyles with ic's

we got this

i finally moved out of modesto so i'm gonna have hmw/macd syndrome once more tournaments happen! meaning... get loads better by moving out of modesto!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I guess my ICs play-style could be considered... fast...

I dunno. I de-sync at every opportunity (landing, shield stun, hit stun, etc...), always wave-land/wave-dash and always SHFFL aerials xD

 

[choknater]

haha a desynching ice climbers sounds super risky to mee but let's see where u take it. but yea ur right videos would help us help you :D

chu i think laid the foundation

wobbles modernized ice climbers

fly is super calculated and knows specific things to do in a lot of situations

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That list of ICs mains sounds right to me xD

Anyways, two unrelated things:
1. Kingdom II is an AMAZING stage for ICs. Probably there best. Too bad it's banned

2. Recently got counter-picked to Kongo Jungle N64 against a Puff and got hard-core camped. Is there anything I can do?

 

[Vts]

That list of ICs mains sounds right to me xD

Anyways, two unrelated things:
1. Kingdom II is an AMAZING stage for ICs. Probably there best. Too bad it's banned

2. Recently got counter-picked to Kongo Jungle N64 against a Puff and got hard-core camped. Is there anything I can do?

well since its banned 99% of the time ban that instead of brinstar or rainbow cruise or be like me and if they pick that stage go puff also and camp back lol

i'm an *** sometimes when people pick dumb stages like brinstar and KJ 64.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I want to see Iori's ICs now.

Also, good stuff to Fly.

 

[Wobbles]

I ban KJ64 always. ****'s unwinnable.

Like... you cannot catch certain characters. And for some of the ones you can catch, the risk so drastically outweighs the reward that you might as well not bother. Wavedashing up slopes desyncs Nana too, and that's half of the level's ground floor.

Brinstar you can be cautious, use small wavedashes and dashes into shield for control, and work the slopes to your advantage. Also, your blizzard oneshots the breakable middle section! I learned this in tournament by doing it accidentally, and my opponent tried to hit me and fast fell through. Two stocked on Brinstar, suckaaaaa.

Also, GJ Fly!

 

[Vts]

I ban KJ64 always. ****'s unwinnable.

Like... you cannot catch certain characters. And for some of the ones you can catch, the risk so drastically outweighs the reward that you might as well not bother. Wavedashing up slopes desyncs Nana too, and that's half of the level's ground floor.

Brinstar you can be cautious, use small wavedashes and dashes into shield for control, and work the slopes to your advantage. Also, your blizzard oneshots the breakable middle section! I learned this in tournament by doing it accidentally, and my opponent tried to hit me and fast fell through. Two stocked on Brinstar, suckaaaaa.

Also, GJ Fly!

as i recall you lost to my friend rayku

Spoiler

horse **** crowd and no playing good and him playing like perfect wasn't helping lol

also fly>wobbles but it doesn't matter since both play differently.

iori's ic are fun to watch they are all over the place lol

wobbles i'm painting a controller pink with a snow flake on it if you want to me my nana for my controller is blue and about to put a snow flake on it but really tempted to give it to DoH and make him my Nana or arby since we teams partners

 

[Smasher89]

Congrats Fly, very nice to read that you beat M2K =D


Haven't played against a puff on KJ64, but if theres one character puff shouldn't camp out who isnt mainly concidered toptier it´s ICs, i know that it´s extreemly hard against Falcon for example and therefore picked the stage since other stages got banned, while the opponent stayed as peach/ganon, I chose puff and won. Took 11 minutes(last stock 0% both=1stockrematch) that time.

Since then it´s banned here(only did it because Corneria got banned ). Since that stage was nice to have as a counterpick against platformcamp based strategies.

My guess is that puff goes to top platform and pounds away/camps bair up high?, if so then edgeguard her with blizzard iceblocks, and makes sure they hit since if puff gets a % lead it will be hard hitting her.

Maybe theres a way to use the moving platforms to desynch a nanapult, taking a bit of control on that space, and maybe setup something so it might be possible to hit with something. Atleast it´s 2 vs 1 so there must be a way to corner her.

I realised and tested something while writing this post about platformcamping:
Desynching Nana to for example jump and fair onto a platform on any stage where she is able to jump up on it, it covers alot of space if you cancel her fair with a belay(more if you double jump* after her), very possibly enough so the opponent cannot jump over and up to the mid platform.
If this works as I think the platformcampy(like in the chu vs azen match on bf) days against ICs is soon going to be over!(since the only close to possible sollusion to avoid getting hit is go down to the ground (except at stages like KJ64).




*Single jump seems to make falcon being able to jump over, but double jump looks to be alot harder to avoid the rocket priority projectile that Nana is.