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General Discussion

Scabe

Successful Businessman
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
3,510
Location
Canberra, Australia
Who do you think is easy to pick up?

When I picked up Jiggs I thought she was sorta easy to play decently at a basic level (no wave dashing + L cancelling etc). I did better than I did with Link at my first Melee Tourney experience so I've stuck with her ever since.

Also for some reason I'm really attracted to the top tiers in Melee, they just seem so cool. I guess everyone does as well since all I ever seem to see in Melee is Fox, Sheik, Falco and Marths.
 

S.D

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
4,062
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Sleeping in a submarine
Hoorah for Jiggly! She deserves the rise, some of the things she does is quite broken and in my newb opinion I think she's quite easy to pick up especially for someone like me who has no tech skill whatsoever in Melee.


Speaking of no tech skill, do you guys have that problem of shielding sometimes when you try and L cancel? I guess it's because I hold shield too long, so uh yeah I think I solved my problem... :lol:

But yeah can you just tap shield right and it will L cancel without shielding afterwords?

Also, is there a link so I can see the whole PAL Tier list? Or could someone post it for me xD

I think you'll probably find that if you're shielding instantly on landing when pressing l it's because you've actually auto cancelled the aerial rather than held l for too long. It's fairly common with puff as you're in the air for extended periods of time.
 

Dekar289

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,306
That's why Shaz beat you in a jiggs ditto yeah? :bee:
k noob first of all shaz is a veteran who is too good with everyon
second of all you are the person who says "fox dittos mean nothing" everytime you lose a fox ditto
 

Nicks

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
449
Location
Melbourne, Australia
hey melee folk.
im picking up melee just for doubles with earl.
just wondering which decent character requires the least amount of tech skill?
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
lol nicks, sheik is basically metaknight (well not really but you get the idea)
and jiggs is basically wario.

problem solved
 

dean.

.
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
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Location
Melbourne, Australia
NNID
dean7599
3DS FC
1435-4425-6023
I'm trying to pick up Melee myself, progress is slow and I don't have a training partner so I'll probably be bad for a long time.

Roy seems fun though~ (even if he's awful)
 

Dekar289

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,306
play who you want
if you want to win, play high and top tier
just don't play ICS peach or puff, the *** characters lol
 

Cronos_Rainbow

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
2,067
Location
Aus
Was talking to Deks yesterday, and he got me started on something that's bothered me for years, and the way the game's progressed does so even more so now. That is, why the rulesets we play by in Melee tourneys are for the most part unchanged from what they were so long ago...which even then was IMO tragically biased. here are a few things I'd consider when reevaluating rulesets. Keep in mind these are no means definitive, just based on my experiences, rationality and observations of the eventual homogenisation of Melee, and are just to get the cogs spinning.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Neutral stages (anything but) - I mean Lives a lot characters are blessed here with many large stages with high ceilings, but characters who prefer close edges, low ceiling or even walk-offs are totally undervalued on these stages for the most part. Few points;
FD Expansive flat terrain, large air-space, no platforms
BF Difficult (biased) edges, platform height (biased)
YS Difficult (biased) edges, platform height (biased), low bottom margin (recovery bias)
DL64 Expansive flat terrain, VERY large air-space
PS Slight camera issue with recovering from beneath, various temporary benefits
FoD temporary benefits
So by that my decision would be to call only PS and FoD the closest to truly 'neutral' stages. They're both dynamic, and at varying points wil favour certain characters more than others, though are not consistently this way.

Issues with neutrals:
Two stages with the particular platform height favouring certain characters greaty.
Two stages with vast air-space favouring certain characters greatly.
Two stages that have vast flat terrains.
Two stages that have difficult/risky to pin-point edges.

Two of these means one strike will not allow you to have a fair match on the first (and arguably most important) match.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Banned Stages (some I ask why?)

I won't go into too much detail here as it's mostly clear at a thought, that stage types that favour particular characters that don't so much benefit from those listed in the above section, such as carry off edges, walls, low ceilings, stage hazards and such are mostly disallowed. These decisions with stages make the tier list as it currently is. What I further question is why iffy stages like Pokefloats and Rainbow Ride somehow remain allowed, where they clearly favour floaties or faster characters, The same can be said about something like Mute City, which only further nullifies any efforts characters like DK make to be competitively viable.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Infinites' and 0%-deaths.

Let's see

Puff uthrow>rest (allowed)
Fox wall-shines (disallowed via stage legitimacy)
DK Cargo carry-offs (disallowed via stage legitimacy)
IC's various 0-deaths (allowed)
Pikachu walk-off edge camping > rolling back throw (disallowed via stage legitimacy)
Marth U-throw > you die (allowed)
Mewtwo for-B through stage (avoidable with stage strike)
Ness dair on wall (disallowed via stage legitimacy)
Roy Reverse Blazer (avoidable via stage strike)
Luigi UpB (avoidable via stage strike)

Granted some of those are slightly more situational than others....but the thing that strikes me as illogical is that the ones that are more (disallowed via stage legitimacy) are the most situational of those, and if anything should be the least focused on.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My suggestions

-Moderate IC's

-PS and FoD only as neutral - no strike
-2 stage bans on counter picks

-Additional counter pick stages to be allowed:
Great Bay (close edges, ceiling 'spikes')
Fourside (walljumps, walls)
MK2 (walk-offs, walljumps)

-Stalling remains illegal


With these changes, you would effectively be able to counter any one characters main strength to a degree, but only enough to hold off the greater of the evils. (eg. ban Mute City and BF and Marth then goes YS) Additionally as the rules currently allow the loser to select stage before revealing their character it gives more of a strategic approach to both parties for the 'slob picks' procedure. Anyone who gets owned on ANY of those additional 3 stages will have done so willingly as they'd be fully aware of the hazards the stages bring prior to their own character selection (run-away on GB, pit spikes on Fourside etc.)
 

S.D

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
4,062
Location
Sleeping in a submarine
Was talking to Deks yesterday, and he got me started on something that's bothered me for years, and the way the game's progressed does so even more so now. That is, why the rulesets we play by in Melee tourneys are for the most part unchanged from what they were so long ago...which even then was IMO tragically biased. here are a few things I'd consider when reevaluating rulesets. Keep in mind these are no means definitive, just based on my experiences, rationality and observations of the eventual homogenisation of Melee, and are just to get the cogs spinning.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Neutral stages (anything but) - I mean Lives a lot characters are blessed here with many large stages with high ceilings, but characters who prefer close edges, low ceiling or even walk-offs are totally undervalued on these stages for the most part. Few points;
FD Expansive flat terrain, large air-space, no platforms
BF Difficult (biased) edges, platform height (biased)
YS Difficult (biased) edges, platform height (biased), low bottom margin (recovery bias)
DL64 Expansive flat terrain, VERY large air-space
PS Slight camera issue with recovering from beneath, various temporary benefits
FoD temporary benefits
So by that my decision would be to call only PS and FoD the closest to truly 'neutral' stages. They're both dynamic, and at varying points wil favour certain characters more than others, though are not consistently this way.

Issues with neutrals:
Two stages with the particular platform height favouring certain characters greaty.
Two stages with vast air-space favouring certain characters greatly.
Two stages that have vast flat terrains.
Two stages that have difficult/risky to pin-point edges.

Two of these means one strike will not allow you to have a fair match on the first (and arguably most important) match.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Banned Stages (some I ask why?)

I won't go into too much detail here as it's mostly clear at a thought, that stage types that favour particular characters that don't so much benefit from those listed in the above section, such as carry off edges, walls, low ceilings, stage hazards and such are mostly disallowed. These decisions with stages make the tier list as it currently is. What I further question is why iffy stages like Pokefloats and Rainbow Ride somehow remain allowed, where they clearly favour floaties or faster characters, The same can be said about something like Mute City, which only further nullifies any efforts characters like DK make to be competitively viable.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Infinites' and 0%-deaths.

Let's see

Puff uthrow>rest (allowed)
Fox wall-shines (disallowed via stage legitimacy)
DK Cargo carry-offs (disallowed via stage legitimacy)
IC's various 0-deaths (allowed)
Pikachu walk-off edge camping > rolling back throw (disallowed via stage legitimacy)
Marth U-throw > you die (allowed)
Mewtwo for-B through stage (avoidable with stage strike)
Ness dair on wall (disallowed via stage legitimacy)
Roy Reverse Blazer (avoidable via stage strike)
Luigi UpB (avoidable via stage strike)

Granted some of those are slightly more situational than others....but the thing that strikes me as illogical is that the ones that are more (disallowed via stage legitimacy) are the most situational of those, and if anything should be the least focused on.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My suggestions

-Moderate IC's

-PS and FoD only as neutral - no strike
-2 stage bans on counter picks

-Additional counter pick stages to be allowed:
Great Bay (close edges, ceiling 'spikes')
Fourside (walljumps, walls)
MK2 (walk-offs, walljumps)

-Stalling remains illegal


With these changes, you would effectively be able to counter any one characters main strength to a degree, but only enough to hold off the greater of the evils. (eg. ban Mute City and BF and Marth then goes YS) Additionally as the rules currently allow the loser to select stage before revealing their character it gives more of a strategic approach to both parties for the 'slob picks' procedure. Anyone who gets owned on ANY of those additional 3 stages will have done so willingly as they'd be fully aware of the hazards the stages bring prior to their own character selection (run-away on GB, pit spikes on Fourside etc.)
tl;dr but take a look at the new MBR melee ruleset - 5 neutrals - stage striking to end up with one stage to play on. 4 CP stages it's a good system.

Also PS not nuetral at all it was moved to CP way 2G for Fox.

BF most nuetral stage in game cbf talking right now just check out MBR ruleset.
 

Cronos_Rainbow

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
2,067
Location
Aus
Luke: Low ceilings are interesting with a character that can juggle directly upwards > hax hit; see Flatzone.

Pokemon Stadium favours Fox because Fox is a good character. However, there is nothing specifically suited to Fox other than
-the walls in the pit in the Ground variant of the stage, and
-the tree wall on Fire variant.
It's probably better suited to Marth with
-most of its 'tipper' platform heights
-ability to hit through tree on Fire variant and
-hit through scaffolding on Ground variant
-far left wall on Ground variant = upB hax
-tilted edges of scenery on many variants meaning tipper beneath edge height
Obviously many benefits Marth has here as an example.

My exact reason for posting this is to disprove what the MBR provide to you as gospel, and only an opinion of one party, which most people eat up without question. They're basing their rules on their scene and version, and have driven their current 'metagame' to its current state with it. Refering me to their material without any rationality is counter-productive here, and no different than 'Sunday is for Church - see Bible' or 'The world is flat - ask the king'.

Explain to me the reasons BF is more neutral than FoD. I don't believe there are any, but am open to discussion.
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
flatzone isnt legal, but I get the point.
surely you arnt suggesting you can do an utilt/uair string and finish with an upb even if the opponent is di-ing? because if you can why the **** didnt anyone tell me that.
 

Sieg

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 3, 2005
Messages
2,991
Location
Dreadzone
No items, Fox only.

FINAL DESTINATION.

YOU KNOW THE RULE.

EDIT: Because that's basically what this sounds like.
 

Sirias

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
2,626
Location
Sydney, Australia
FoD has mega short sides and massive top, though.
Battlefield is more neutral in that sense, methinks.
But as for the ledges and platforms, still so gay for Marth on BF (BOYFRRRIEENNDD <33), but yeah, also since the platforms are only temporary, characters can chain grab uninterrupted (though only for so long) on FoD.
... I don't know anyone that likes FoD anyway, I hate it, haha.
I don't think Pokemon Stadium is even that great.
Considering I play Fox, I personally don't like the stage with him.
Even though I seem to win more on it than other stages, but... that's... beside the point... lol.
Pokemans is a good stage, it's not very neutral though, no.
That's my 2 cents.
Nothing new, lolfail.
 

Cronos_Rainbow

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Luke - the fact it isn't legal is exactly the reason it's up for dicsussion - it's a prime example of a stage that alter the tier list greatly due to its different properties. As for DI, you can DI Marths upthrow chains, and Puffs upthrow > upair also, but it's still used because the attacker too can alter their position or actions accordingly.

Sieg - if you mean what I'm suggesting, then no - that's a complete opposite aim of what I'm suggesting, and if you can't see that it means you didn't read my post.

Sirias - thanks for an awesome and purposeful post - you tend to have pretty win posts, and not because they agree with me (because they don't always), but because they're always backed by some reason and have a main contention.
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
can luigi alter his positions accordingly though? seeing as how he has to be touching them to get the sweetspot upB, and also considering his **** air speed?
 

Atticus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
295
Location
Melbourne
Gimmicks you can do with stage change, although beneficial, aren't really the primary reason why PK Stadium is a good Fox stage imo. It's a nice large stage conducive to laser camping, but with platforms there to truncate the 0-death chain grabs you would suffer on FD, and a low ceiling to give you kills that are harder to come by on DL64.

I agree that the single-strike/random pick for the first stage can easily be unfair, and I think the stage-striking system that SD mentioned is something I would definitely support using for all tournaments. What stages should be neutral is disputable, but at least stage striking to one stage guarantees you'll have the most neutral OF the neutrals available.

Stage bans is a trickier issue because I don't think everyone agrees on the criteria for why a stage should be banned. Many will say it's for balance - and this is a factor - but realistically, there are plenty of banned stages that aren't necessarily broken, they just don't make for particularly good gameplay. Obviously a very subjective issue in itself, but there are explicit problems to point out: camera issues (like Fourside's UFO), random obstacles, crappy layouts that make approaching even harder, walk-off edges can mean critical gameplay will be occuring with characters off-screen. It's a matter of where do you draw the line - the current MBR ruleset has drawn the line further back than ever before. I'll be the first to agree that people can be too quick to accept the back room output as the universal truth, but I personally too favor the more restrictive stage list because I think bad stages have a substantial negative impact on the quality of the game.
 

S.D

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Sleeping in a submarine
Gimmicks you can do with stage change, although beneficial, aren't really the primary reason why PK Stadium is a good Fox stage imo. It's a nice large stage conducive to laser camping, but with platforms there to truncate the 0-death chain grabs you would suffer on FD, and a low ceiling to give you kills that are harder to come by on DL64.

I agree that the single-strike/random pick for the first stage can easily be unfair, and I think the stage-striking system that SD mentioned is something I would definitely support using for all tournaments. What stages should be neutral is disputable, but at least stage striking to one stage guarantees you'll have the most neutral OF the neutrals available.

Stage bans is a trickier issue because I don't think everyone agrees on the criteria for why a stage should be banned. Many will say it's for balance - and this is a factor - but realistically, there are plenty of banned stages that aren't necessarily broken, they just don't make for particularly good gameplay. Obviously a very subjective issue in itself, but there are explicit problems to point out: camera issues (like Fourside's UFO), random obstacles, crappy layouts that make approaching even harder, walk-off edges can mean critical gameplay will be occuring with characters off-screen. It's a matter of where do you draw the line - the current MBR ruleset has drawn the line further back than ever before. I'll be the first to agree that people can be too quick to accept the back room output as the universal truth, but I personally too favor the more restrictive stage list because I think bad stages have a substantial negative impact on the quality of the game.
Man I love it when Atticus posts, always on the mark.

Those are the exact reasons PS is perfect for fox, low ceilings, platforms at ideal heights, beneficial stage transformations, enough space to camp but conducive to aggression as well etc.

Essentially the MOST NUETRAL STAGE is completely dependant on the MU at hand, meaning striking down to one stage will generally leave you with the MOST NUETRAL stage for that particular matchup, rather than limiting 'nuetral' to a general rule of thumb.
 

Cronos_Rainbow

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
2,067
Location
Aus
I remember some time ago when the idea of striking to one here was brought up, and it was eventually decided against due to the fact it was going against the grain in terms of the generally agreed on MBR rules.

What stages should be neutral is disputable, but at least stage striking to one stage guarantees you'll have the most neutral OF the neutrals available.
Generally this will work out...unless of course the entire selection, or even the majority of them favour one character over the other from the word go. You'll find that after a few short months there will simply be a handful of used characters, and an almost automatic stage selection based on the usual bans. As a totally hypothetical example: Sheik + Marth = auto DL64 where Fox + Marth = auto YS.

What I'm getting at is the nature of neutrality itself, which i think is as SD stated, a 'rule of thumb' determined by a select few drawing conclusions based on their current 'metagame', popular selections and approaches at the time (and of course personal bias as it's hard to avoid).
The key to balance ultimately is variables. Either you homogenise more, and allow nothing but top tier - rock paper scissors tech ability to determine the match, or you allow as many variables as you can, and open up a whole array of interesting posibilities. You want interesting matches or the same boring conclusions event after event? Viva la Peach vs Marth?
 

Redact

Professional Nice Guy
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Apr 21, 2007
Messages
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Amazing Land
atticus is writing a thesis on how to post like a boss

on a more serious note, im all for the sbr's most current ruleset, that being the 5 neutrals setup they have with the stage striking in place

as for counter picks i personally enjoy the idea of more stages available and more bans available, 2 bans and a decent amount of stages (so that 2 bans doesn't entirely defeat the purpose of counter picking, but the bans are still able to cover for the major parts of your characters/your own flaws)

if anything shaz, the stages you propose for more "variety" will only insure the placing of half of the top tiers, as most of them are the best at abusing the stage flaws/layout

top tier will always be top tier, and you can't avoid that without either severely alerting the game play, or restricting it quite a bit.

such is a flaw of imbalanced game design

welcome to the biggest issue of super smash bros, not just melee
 

Sirias

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
2,626
Location
Sydney, Australia
I totally couldn't figure out if you were being sarcastic or genuine, Shaz, lol.
...
So I'll just say you were being sarcastic.
<3

I'll post more later, gotta go now.
Wubz~
 

CAOTIC

Woxy
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 29, 2004
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11,506
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I'll go with whatever ruleset Syke liked (PS is gay), thread too long to read.
 

King Kong

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
1,451
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I like this discussion a lot! I always though we should come up with an Australian variant on the tournament ruleset based on general opinion. Here's my two cents:

Neutral Stages:

Battlefield - Medium blastzones both horizontally and vertically. Camping is difficult on this stage. IMO the most equalised stage in the game.

DL64 - Yeah, this is a big stage. But realistically it allows for a wide variety of playstyles. For example, peach/samus lives for longer on this stage, but fox/falco can camp his *** off, captain falcon has a ton of room to exploit his maneuverability etc etc. I dont think any one character is really debilitated by this stage unless you cant adapt to it. They used this stage a lot back in the heyday of Japanese smash, and they had a lot more variety in their top placings as a result I feel.

So I think those are the two most even stages in the game.

As for counterpicks, I've always liked variety, and it inspires people to learn more characters. So I suppose i agree with Redact with regards to that particular issue. Stages like Corneria/DK64/Pokefloats/Brinstar/Mute City are fun and its not impossible to overcome a character disadvantage on them.


peace out
 

Cronos_Rainbow

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
2,067
Location
Aus
Sirias: I wasn't being sarcastic. Your post was not just a flame-thrower but a good contribution that got the ball rolling.

Redact: Top tier chracarters are top tier because they're good characters. On that I agree. However if you were to take a quick survey of people who play different mains, you'd find more often than not that their prefered stages differ depending on their character. I'd assume the majority of those who play top tiers would still select those currently available stages more often than not, where people who play mid and low tiers would have a very different choice on which stages around what suits their character best. It's like saying sniper rifles will always be the ultimate hand-held weapon, so for that reason we will always play on salt-lake.

KK: More counterpicks not only mean a higher variety of characters like you say, but will serve to better peoples games as they need to learn different methods of handling particular match-ups. So few and far between are innovative players here in Australia. The majority of players are just carbon copies of things we see on US replays minus the experience level and in-depth understanding of why the character developed that way.
 

Darkwing SykeDuk

Smash Dankist
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
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Purple Monkey Dishwasher
BF ***** spacies and wubs marths sword. FoD is deceptivley large, amsah survived a marth f-smash at +150%.

You'd think the mbr would have had this discussion already.. More cp's wont make people change characters bra, people will always play to win and the high tiers are the reason they do.
 
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