Gears of War 3

[Pluvia]

Clay Carmine's fate:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/301086/e3-games-gears-of-war-3/

Also it seems by that article they wont be powering down the Sawn Off, which is fantastic. They hardly mentioned the Gnasher sniper though so chances are it'll still have it's 2-3 shot down from any range ability.

 

[F8AL]

Clay Carmine's fate:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/301086/e3-games-gears-of-war-3/

Also it seems by that article they wont be powering down the Sawn Off, which is fantastic. They hardly mentioned the Gnasher sniper though so chances are it'll still have it's 2-3 shot down from any range ability.

Oh dear god...how do not see that the gayed sawed off is overpowered/cheap?

Epic occasionally alludes to the Campaign mode; it admits it remains the biggest draw for the game, and producer Rod Fergusson reveals that Clayton Carmine will survive to the end credits - the first Carmine family member to do so. "I still want him to die," grumbles Bleszinski when we're told the news, as the rest of the team at Epic laugh knowingly.

 

[Master Xanthan]

They need to do something to the sawed-off.

 

[Wretched]

I don't care how much Epic talks about how the bad players need a crutch- Even the good players can abuse such a centralizing weapon.
The angle on that thing is like 135 degrees. If you play with it like a gears 1 shotgun, it is tremendously overpowered in that if you don't have a retro out, you can't do anything before people get to you.
Not to mention, people camp with it and wait for you to turn around and go running. Have you played KotH? People ***** the sawed-off like a prostitute who stopped getting childsupport. They control the circle by killing one person and making the statement "This is my goddamn circle, and if you dare get in the vicinity of it from any angle, I will destroy you with my amazingly powerful defensive weapon."
It stops me from ever being aggressive. I have to hardaim from long ranges to ensure that I am never in a position where someone could hit me with a skill-lacking weapon. I shouldn't get out played and controlled by bad players, and I will not buy gears of war 3 if they don't patch this gun in some way that I mentioned before.

@Pluvia About the digger, shooting it like a grenade launcher is, again, amaaazing like you said. It travels slowly in the ground, but if you shoot it at an angle, it is soundless and much faster. I get dubs/trips with it all of the time.

 

[Pluvia]

Wretched, if they're standing in the circle just smoke them, or Ink them, or Frag them, or Hammerburst/Lancer them.

Sawn Offers can do nothing to that.

 

[Fuelbi]

Bull**** if Carmine lives

Bull**** if they're leaving the Gayed-Off the way that it is

Bull**** if they're leaving the Plancer the way that it is

Bull****

 

[Wretched]

Wretched, if they're standing in the circle just smoke them, or Ink them, or Frag them, or Hammerburst/Lancer them.

Sawn Offers can do nothing to that.

Lancering and hammerbursting are much more situational. Under most conditions, players will get in cover around the circle.
Throwing a smoke or having an ink or frag is just as situational. If I had access to a smoke or grenade at all times, most of my issues with this game would be remedied. Unfortunately, using a smoke is only situationally advantageous. If you get close enough to move forward before they are released from the stun time of the smoke, you're close enough to be sawed offed.

 

[Pluvia]

Saying "it's situational" doesn't make it an invalid tactic. The SO is the most situational weapon in the game due to the fact you have to get the opponent 2 feet away from you without getting killed first. Especially in KOTH where the circle is always in no cover or really bad cover.

If someone is guarding the ring they're letting all the power weapons go, meaning that smokes and frags should be immensely easy to come by.

 

[Master Xanthan]

Bull**** if Carmine lives

Bull**** if they're leaving the Gayed-Off the way that it is

Bull**** if they're leaving the Plancer the way that it is

Bull****

I agree with everything except for carmine. Is it really that bad if Carmine lives? I think it would be cool. Sawed Off and Plancer need to be fixed though.

 

[Fuelbi]

I agree with everything except for carmine. Is it really that bad if Carmine lives? I think it would be cool. Sawed Off and Plancer need to be fixed though.

The only reason why I like Carmine in the first place is because he is such a failure that he dies either by a headshot when he jams his gun, or because he's an idiot and falls inside a worm.

The fact that he lives sucks. His entire family should all just die or something imo because that cements them into awesomeness forever

 

[Wretched]

Saying "it's situational" doesn't make it an invalid tactic.
It makes it an invalid solution to a common problem.

The SO is the most situational weapon in the game due to the fact you have to get the opponent 2 feet away from you without getting killed first.
The gnasher is the only weapon that can compete with it in terms of "Killing you first" considering the easy abuse of cover. You can't do anything to anyone behind cover, which means they control the whole area because you have to be afraid of the sawed off. It is a defensive weapon that exponentially increases the need for the opposing player to be defensive, which is completely the opposite of what nearly all competitive GoW players want.

Especially in KOTH where the circle is always in no cover or really bad cover.
Camping the general area of the circle is easy. It never occurs in the wide open, and limiting access to it via the sawed off, which controls nearly half of a map with a mere 2 "foot range."

If someone is guarding the ring they're letting all the power weapons go, meaning that smokes and frags should be immensely easy to come by.
1-2 players can completely control a ring by strategically camping the ring with the sawed off, which is unprecedented in terms of defensive capabilities and forced defensive maneuvers. This means that 3-4 players can still control the entire maps resources, which are usually the locations of the ring. I'm sure that if you get 2-3 players to flank, let one of them die, and then kill the person controlling the ring, you could assess this situation, but it should only take one player to control one other player by Gears of War standards.

Responses in bold.
bluhurgh

 

[Pluvia]

Actually if they're in cover and not in the ring they've left it wide open. The only way for them to kill you in that situation is to leave cover, which leaves them wide open to being downed. Ever tried to rush someone with a Hammerburst? You'll be down in an instant.

If 2 people are controlling the ring that means there's 3 people scattered across the map. AKA easy pickings for the 5 people in your team. A quick run to the Digger, killing the player at it, and you have yourself a power weapon that shoots through cover. Or fire grenades, or Inks, both of which force players out of cover.

If 5 people, with 5 smoke grenades and assault rifles, can't kill 2 people in a ring, or 3 people guarding weapons on their own, it's not a weapon that's at fault, it's just their team is better than yours.

 

[Wretched]

I.... Ugh..
As proved before by many other members, there is no arguing with you. I am not going to type more paragraphs to respond to this.

 

[The Real Gamer]

There's a difference between your arguments and mine though Wretched.

I don't find the SO overpowered... My main gripe with it is that it greatly lessens the skill gap between players that have been playing Gears for years (like myself) and randoms who just started playing Gears for the first time.

Mura's video explains all of the problems with the SO perfectly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pIoSPvUDFE My bad if you've watched it already.

 

[Wretched]

I have watched it already, and I agree with my viewpoint and the skillgap viewpoint.

 

[Pluvia]

So I decided to watch that video for the first time.

The main problem with it is he never brought up the fact that a skilled players will easily be able to kill non-skilled players. Yeah they might be able to go grab the Hammer of Dawn and kill you, but if you're skilled you can halt them from getting it. Yeah they'll be able to kill you every once in a while, but what's that 1 death to the 7 kills you'll get on them? Nothing.

People who rely on one weapon are not skilled players. This is why people who solely use the Gnasher are killed by the SO, and this is why people who solely use the SO are killed by everything else.

This is why I managed to keep over a 3.0 K/D on every gametype, I adapted to the situation and changed my weapon and tactics to deal with what was in front of me, rather than complain that my favourite weapon wasn't the be-all-and-end-all.

 

[MuraRengan]

So I decided to watch that video for the first time.

The main problem with it is he never brought up the fact that a skilled players will easily be able to kill non-skilled players. Yeah they might be able to go grab the Hammer of Dawn and kill you, but if you're skilled you can halt them from getting it. Yeah they'll be able to kill you every once in a while, but what's that 1 death to the 7 kills you'll get on them? Nothing.

People who rely on one weapon are not skilled players. This is why people who solely use the Gnasher are killed by the SO, and this is why people who solely use the SO are killed by everything else.

This is why I managed to keep over a 3.0 K/D on every gametype, I adapted to the situation and changed my weapon and tactics to deal with what was in front of me, rather than complain that my favourite weapon wasn't the be-all-and-end-all.

I didn't bring that up because it's not relevant. The fact that skilled players are still beating unskilled players is just coincidence. Your logic ignores the principally incorrect aspects of the SO simply because good players still come out on top. I made this same analogy on the Epic forums: In Gears 2, I have a rushing strategy for killing boomshot users that works solely because I'm a good player. Does it mean that the boomshot would not be OP if made a starting weapon simply because players on my level are good enough to beat it? Not at all, the boomshot retains the same huge natural advantages it's always had. In that same way, it doesn't matter that good players can beat the SO, the SO still has immense advantages that make it unbalanced in CQC.

People like to translate my argument into "Bad players killing good players," but that's not the entirety of my point. The main point is that bad players don't have to work as hard as good players to do well in CQC when they use the sawed-off (and moreso the retro). My problem with the SO has to do with ONLY what it does to the CQC. It makes the CQC incredibly shallow, and this is not what Gears has been about for the last 2 years.

Yes, there are tactics that can beat the sawed-off, but none of those tactics can be used in close-quarters. The main point of that video is that the SO makes CQC too simple for people who use it, and impossible for people who don't. And that's really a slap in the face to the most dedicated Gears fans. The CQC is the most defining aspect of Gears. It's what the portion of the fanbase who still play Gears 1 and 2 look for. It's not about the game being a gnasherfest, it's about the CQC being deep and skill rewarding. The fact that this was done mostly with the gnasher is just coincidence (I can wallbounce shotgunners in CQC while using a gorgon in Gears 2). If Epic wanted to make the CQC more than just gnashers, I think they could've done so without adding a gun that makes the game easy. Now we have variety, but at the expense of the CQC experience that the dedicated fans are looking for. Now the game has been made where everyone except the most dedicated fans has something to enjoy.

Tl;dr - The SO has removed the deep CQC gameplay that Gears is most famous for.

Side note: The SO destroys all tactical value in KotH.

Another side note: The retro lancer is a way bigger problem that the SO.

 

[Pluvia]

The boomshot isn't a good analogy to choose. The SO is good in one situation, the Boomshot excels in loads.

In other words the whole hate comes down to people thinking SO ruined CQC? Oh. Well less unskilled players bouncing around stupidly thinking it makes them good is a good thing. Wallbouncing is so easily countered by turning with the player and pop-shotting them. Now the SO forces new tactics and a more diverse game, and I'm glad Epic agrees. Now unskilled players wont slap on a Gnasher and leave the game if they can't master it, now they'll take the time to use more weapons, leading to much more varied situations and more fun.

Also the Plancer is clearly getting nerfed so there's no point in debating it really.

 

[MuraRengan]

The boomshot isn't a good analogy to choose. The SO is good in one situation, the Boomshot excels in loads.

In other words the whole hate comes down to people thinking SO ruined CQC? Oh. Well less unskilled players bouncing around stupidly thinking it makes them good is a good thing. Wallbouncing is so easily countered by turning with the player and pop-shotting them. Now the SO forces new tactics and a more diverse game, and I'm glad Epic agrees. Now unskilled players wont slap on a Gnasher and leave the game if they can't master it, now they'll take the time to use more weapons, leading to much more varied situations and more fun.

Also the Plancer is clearly getting nerfed so there's no point in debating it really.

If the bold were true then this would've been a common counter in MP. Furthermore, if this were true, then that makes even less of a reason for the sawed-off to exist because there is already an available tactic to counter shotgunners. But clearly, neither are true. I highly doubt that your popshot solution would work against me or any good wallbouncer. And even if it does for you, clearly the portion of the fanbase that hates the shotgun and called it a "shotgun fest" are those people who couldn't adapt and implement your popshot tactic to defeat wallbouncers.

The tactic for beating a shotgun has always been skill, and it should remain this way regardless of what weapon is used. I don't care where your definition of skill comes from, but it's clearly not relevant to Gears of War. The most skilled Gears players have always been ones who, at the least, are able to function well in CQC. That's the base of skill in Gears 1 and 2, so I don't know where you're getting this "shotgun users are unskilled" business from. The real problem with you, Pluvia, is that you don't understand just how deep the CQC in this game is. You, like many Epic forum posters, seem to think that shotgun use = inability to use other guns, which is ludicrous. In reality, shotgun users tend to be the most versatile players because the skill they've acquired in CQC generally coincides with ability to have skill with other weapons. I've never met a good sniper/torquer/wallbouncer that couldn't whip put a shotgun and fight me. But when it comes to players who mainly use less skill requiring tactics (lancer/hb from afar, retro strafing, SO rushing, SO camping), they can't handle themselves in skillful CQC.

If people want to play the game using minimal effort, that's fine, but they shouldn't be able to do as well as people who put forth effort. Variety was only an issue in Gears 1. Other weapons could be used fine in Gears 2, it's just that players had to have skill to use them. Gears 3 is trying to create variety by making everything easy.

 

[Pluvia]

Your mistake is believing everyone that wallbounces has skill. In Gears 1 that might ring true, but for Gears 2 a blind and deaf cat could wallbounce after a few hours of playing. Litterally 95% of wallbouncers are stopped in their place by the incredibly simple tactic of turning with them and popshotting. It's staggering the amount of people that think the only way to shoot in this game is to blindfire or hardaim, and that's the people wallbouncers kill.

The skillfull players are the players that adapt to every situation, the ones that change their tactics depending on what their opponents are doing. Yeah you might be able to look at a wall and press A, but if you try doing it around someone with the best CQC weapon you're not skillfull. Skillfull players abuse their opponents weapons weaknesses and come out on top.

 

[The Real Gamer]

^You're kidding yourself here wallbouncing is 100% necessary in almost every 1 v 1 shotgun situation what you said makes no sense.

Wallbouncing doesn't mean you have skill, but skilled players know HOW and WHEN to wallbounce.

 

[Pluvia]

Seemingly not if they're struggling to kill Sawn Offers.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I thought we were talking about GoW2 here...

SO prevents those epic 1 v 1 shotgun battles that we've all known and loved about Gears. :'(

 

[F8AL]

Hey guys,

Here is a new Gears of War 3 teaser:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmrMsxAMUsY&feature=player_embedded

 

[MuraRengan]

Seemingly not if they're struggling to kill Sawn Offers.

Nobody's struggling to kill SO users. Well, at least I know I'm not. Once again, I disagree with the SO on principle. The effort requirement for using a SO is so disproportionately small when compared to the shotgun that it has made CQC less deep and skill requiring in general. Yes, I can kill SO users, but that requires using mid-to-long range tactics. There's no CQC solution to the SO, which means the SO will dominate CQC. That's a problem because the most valueable aspect of Gears has always been the CQC, and it shouldn't be dumbed down for any reason.

Also, the SO still utterly ruins modes like KotH and CTL where players don't always have the luxury of being patient. The SO is reasonably counterable in modes where players only objective is to kill and survive, because they can be as patient/campy as they want, but in modes where there is an objective, players must move around and cannot simply run away when they see someone with a SO. More often that not, running away from a fight in KotH or CTL means you're not helping the team with the objective.

 

[Master Xanthan]

I honestly think they need to make the crosshairs much small for the SO, its way too easy to use.

 

[Pluvia]

According to the games coding, the bullet spread for the SO is only 55 degrees.

Edit:

Ok wait scratch that it's actually 31 degrees.

I would comment on this further but I've consumed copious amounts of alcohol tonight and don't have the ability to.

 

[Wretched]

That's ridiculous considering I die from 180 degree angles.

 

[Pluvia]

Basically all it means is that the SO is dreadful when compared to all the perks of the Gnasher.

But I'm glad they added it, it puts a stop to the Gnasher fest this game would be without it.

 

[Master Xanthan]

Basically all it means is that the SO is dreadful when compared to all the perks of the Gnasher.

But I'm glad they added it, it puts a stop to the Gnasher fest this game would be without it.

I still think the SO is annoying, Gnasher fests were fun because it didn't take one shot to kill somebody(unless you were really close).

 

[Pluvia]

I think that was just because of dreadful hit detection in Gears 2. Gnashers are supposed to gib from close range like they do in 1 and 3.

GoW 3 interview about what the developers learnt from the beta:

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/117/1170246p1.html

My favourite part is the fact that they came to pretty much the same conclusion as me, we even used the same "7 kills and 1 death" analogy!

Yeah they'll be able to kill you every once in a while, but what's that 1 death to the 7 kills you'll get on them? Nothing.

People who rely on one weapon are not skilled players. This is why people who solely use the Gnasher are killed by the SO, and this is why people who solely use the SO are killed by everything else.

This is why I managed to keep over a 3.0 K/D on every gametype, I adapted to the situation and changed my weapon and tactics to deal with what was in front of me, rather than complain that my favourite weapon wasn't the be-all-and-end-all.

So it's good to see they wont be changing the Sawn Off just to keep the Gnasher players happy. Especially as it seems the Gnasher is getting almost twice as much kills as the SO, which I guess means a lot of people are still managing to get in close and beat the SO with the Gnasher sniper rifle:

http://twitter.com/#!/EpicCog/status/69141296949891072

 

[Wretched]

So it's good to see they wont be changing the Sawn Off just to keep the Gnasher players happy. Especially as it seems the Gnasher is getting almost twice as much kills as the SO, which I guess means a lot of people are still managing to get in close and beat the SO with the Gnasher sniper rifle:

I guess means a lot of people are still managing to get in close and beat the SO with the Gnasher sniper rifle:

still managing to get in close......the Gnasher sniper rifle

get in close......sniper rifle

I love playing with you, but I hate everything you say pertaining to pretty much everything. I think it is because I try to be fair to my friends and explain to them that if they were on the opposing team, they are the people who I feel tend to ruin the game.
Like F8AL, I love the **** out of his canasian body. Its always ready. That doesn't mean I wouldn't ragequit against him.

 

[F8AL]

I love playing with you, but I hate everything you say pertaining to pretty much everything. I think it is because I try to be fair to my friends and explain to them that if they were on the opposing team, they are the people who I feel tend to ruin the game.
Like F8AL, I love the **** out of his canasian body. Its always ready. That doesn't mean I wouldn't ragequit against him.

What. The. ****?

And I'm not buying this game since they're not nerfing the sawed off. Nope.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Epic just wants Gears 3 to be noob friendly simple as that.

Casuals ruin EVERYTHING when video games are involved.

Damn this sucks.

 

[MuraRengan]

So it's good to see they wont be changing the Sawn Off just to keep the Gnasher players happy. Especially as it seems the Gnasher is getting almost twice as much kills as the SO, which I guess means a lot of people are still managing to get in close and beat the SO with the Gnasher sniper rifle:

http://twitter.com/#!/EpicCog/status/69141296949891072

Lol, those stats. Are you also familiar with the other stats joe has posted before? I recall seeing them on the forums. 72% of people use the Gnasher, 28% use the sawed off. So with 72% of people using the gnasher can only get 30% of the kills, but 28% of people using the sawed-off can get 18% of the kills. If sawed-off usage were to double, it would have more kills than the gnasher while still having less users. The ratio of kill-to-use with both weapons is disproportionate. Sawed-off users, in general, get more kills than gnasher users. There's just less people using it. That's what the stats say.

Rod likes to ignore this kind of thing. The only reason why gnasher users can still get multile kills before dieing is because most players haven't resorted to using the easy weapons yet. The stats show that too.

Oh and, proof, just in case.

 

[F8AL]

Epic just wants Gears 3 to be noob friendly simple as that.

Casuals ruin EVERYTHING when video games are involved.

Damn this sucks.

Totally agree with this post but game companies want to make the most money so they have to dumb down their games to make bks feel good while punishing the good players.

 

[Master Xanthan]

Wow if this is true I guess I'll just stick to the campaign and horde mode. Sawed Off is ridiculous. Regular Edition for me.

Edit: When you think about it, what was the point of the beta if Epic is going to ignore what the community is saying anyway?

 

[The Real Gamer]

They think us "Gnasher users" are just afraid of change and a bunch of whiners when we actually have legit reasons to dislike the Sawed Off.

 

[Pluvia]

I can't multi-quote on my phone so I'll just make a general post.

I'm pretty sure they're going to give the Plancer a slight damage decrease. This weapon doesn't seem to fit, it's pretty much the anti-shotgun, but the other rifles, especially the Hammerburst, destroy it outside of close range. It's just too good at close range, downing people in about a second.

The SO on the other hand doesn't need a nerf. It's far too situational. Like for example say you come across a team of people who use primarily the Gnasher, they can use that weapon in a whole host of situations. That team can battle toe-to-toe with riflers, and they have all the perks of the SO bar getting triples or higher. A whole team of Sawn Offers on the other hand are easy to defeat, pull out your rifle and you can gun them down from a distance. For the life of me I can't think of a situation SO's could be in that couldn't be bettered by the Gnasher, bar shooting a bunch of people bunched together, and ultra-close range.

A lot of people seem to think the SO is broken, but what makes it so bad? It's still just as easy to get kills in this game. New people that use the SO are still just as easy to kill. People that try to use the SO like the Gnasher in previous games are still easy to kill. The only people that are hard to kill are the players that don't rely on one weapon, the good players, and that's the way it should be. Instead of one weapon dominating 50% of the kills like in previous Gears, there's now a shift towards other weapons being used. It creates a more diverse playing field and leads to a more fun and challenging game.

 

[Wretched]

Its like you ignore every complaint about the sawed off and act like it is a gnasher with less range.