Or maybe I'm just too good and you are bad at fighting G&W?
Fought many of them with "trashy Zelda" at a tourney about a week and a half ago and won $140. Guess they sucked too, because Zelda is supposed to lose out as badly as Ness does. Oh well. I just didn't bother with Ness.
I'm really confused as to why you say this directed at me, when I never said once that it should be even. I personally think it's 7:3 (not a hard counter, and I think Marth and Snake do better against Ness than G&W does), though I did add in 6:4 though thats not what I personally feel from my experiences and etc, but I do talk with Colin a lot, so I'm being courteous towards him, since I knew he would jump into the topic as soon as people said it was a 9:1 advantage
You should probably stick with 7:3, then. That's what I say it is at best. I just do not see why Ness should be 6:4 or even.
But really, don't make stupid assumptions about how I play. I don't have trouble playing Colin. I don't get mindgamed to hell and back. I'm certainly also not a bad player. I never said it was even, I argue with Colin all the time, etc etc you smell.
Well then if you don't get mindgamed, then why are you even considering this to be 6:4 or even? IF you're not getting mindgamed by Ness frequently, what is he doing to you that makes you think otherwise? I also never said you were bad; I did say, however, based off of your general apparent stance, that Colin is probably just a really good Ness player and makes the match-up look not as bad for Ness as it really is. He believes it's even; I obviously do not believe that. The difference between the two of us is that I'm willing to bet that he's played more G&Ws with Ness than I have and the G&Ws he has fought were around the same level of skill as the ones I fought. Perhaps they were better or worse, but in any case, our personal experiences are probably different when we use Ness vs. G&W, but I believe that it's at least 7:3.
The fact that you disagreed with me originally (as in, when I said it wasn't 6:4 and that it was at least 7:3, hence by "hard counter") meant to me that you thought it was also even, just based off of your posts. If you say it's 6:4, then fair enough, but honestly, what makes you say it's 6:4?
^ Edit in: I don't mean to make that all sound so harsh, just the way you replied to me was pretty rude, I felt.
The most sugarcoating you'll get out of me is "no offense."
Now, Shaky posted that quote on his own agenda, though I was talking with him. That isn't the only thing that Outranges G&W on the ground, the Bat also outranges the Dtilt by a great deal.
Try "they have virtually the same range." Seriously, do you even use your dtilt?
If you really want to be picky, Chef outranges that, but PKT(2) beats all. I don't see why this is even considered as G&W's and Ness' ground play is mostly defensive and reactive (Ness' Running Grab is a great player in this, though thats not really what either of us are talking about, shooo).
Oh, so if a move is designed to be "defensive", then it can't be used as an offensive move? Marth can play defensive on the ground, so does this mean his moves are meant to defend and not attack? Please. You can go on the offensive with either characters' ground attacks, and it is very unlikely that you will not. It's considered because it's part of their move set. Last time I checked, Ness and G&W didn't float in the air 100% of the match and only used aerials.
They are both aerial fighters, and Ness' Fair can be really tricky against the Turtle, beating it in startup and end time.
Isn't a properly spaced G&W bair one of the most difficult aerials to get through? Ness's fair is good, but unless Ness hits first and fast, he'll get hit and will be stopped.
In fact, this whole thread started because a G&W user ran into the Fairs ability to challenge the turtle and him not being sure about it. G&W doesn't completely shut down Ness' air game, though I'm not arguing the advantage here.
No, it doesn't completely "shut it down." If I said that somewhere (doubtful, but possible), then that's not what I meant. G&W, however, does have a comparable airgame to Ness's, and overall, they're probably a bit better than Ness's. Doesn't mean that Ness's is bad, but just about all of G&W's aerials can be problematic on Ness.
^Edit in: The dash attack also is another move that outranges G&W on the ground, but what I said still stands; Their ground play is defensive and reactive.
Yeah, it's a decent attack. Isn't safe at all on block if you don't space it properly though. (Spacing it properly, however, gives the other person a bit more time to react though, sadly.
My biggest issue is with you thinking Ness is shutdown solely by the Bucket.
You must be talking to the wrong guy, because I never said that G&W's down B is the SOLE REASON as to why Ness has a hard time here. Ever.
He isn't (though PKFire is a free bucket fill). Gimping is a rare occurence when the Ness actually knows when and where to use his second jump and PKT2.Bucket gimping requires you to be really close, despite the range of absorption because Ness twirls it behind him and you end up only getting the tail. This makes it harder to absorb because it's a much smaller time frame to work with, and Ness can easily throw out an aerial in response to your approach. G&W is, however, ridiculously good at punishing the falltime part of the PKT2 through clever use of his Uair and other aerials.
Ok, so you're telling me that it's harder than it sounds. Fair enough, because as Ness, I don't get gimped as much as people try to make it sound either. This neglects nothing about the bucket's ability to gimp, however.
Anyways I'm only posting because you replied to me. Twice. One was a quote from Shaky from Irc #Smash. The first quote was me being silly (I thought the all hail Colin the king part gave it away;I guess not), because I don't really believe Ness > Zelda @____________@
Of course I knew you were being silly. Why do you think I made that first sentence separate from the rest of that post? Come on now.
(P.S. to Cutter: Shaky isn't a Colin clone. He's pretty good but not the real deal. The difference is Colin is very clever with his use of PKT(2), while Shaky utilizes the Yo-Yo a lot more. And if you make a long post Colin will crush you, I wager, though he isn't around now)
