GaW vs Ness

[Overswarm]

http://www.allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=310913#p310913

This is where I get the idea that some members of the SBR don't know what they are talking about. It's pretty clear evidence that something is amiss when a SBR member says some SBR members should not be SBR members. Simna had another post suggesting that the SBR was just plain apathetic toward the lower parts of the tier list as well:

Simna isn't in the SBR. Simna is a mod, and got in through the back door. He also didn't post a single thing, ever, during any of our discussions. I'd take his words with a grain of salt.

I think, these two things being taken side by side, that it's pretty silly to use the SBR tier list as evidence that any of the characters in low tier are actually bad (that's not to say some or even most of them aren't bad, just that the list doesn't do anything to further the argument).

We also do see their reasoning with the stage list, and we can get a feeling for the flavor of their opinions. The SBR certainly isn't terrible at all, but they do clearly care about some things that are obviously not important ("bad ledges"...), and their reasoning for stages like Flat Zone 2 and the Summit didn't seem to address the real issues with the stages. The fact that they were deliberately completely opaque with the reasoning behind the tier list (the reasoning for this was literally "we aren't posting it because people might disagree with it") only raises suspicion about the quality of the arguments. The fact that the community literally ignores some of the things they post (no one even understood what I was talking about when I asked about the difference in the legality status between Princess Peach's Castle and Fourside in melee) also raises questions about their effectiveness as an organization (if they are comprised of the top level tournament people then why do some of the rule suggestions they make fail to take root in many if any real tournaments?). I'm sure this will be taken all the wrong way, but I hope you can see that these are serious concerns that create what I feel is a strong reason to be inclined to doubt what the SBR says about various things.

You should always think for yourself, this is true.

However, you should also realize that you're discounting the largest collection of the smartest, most talented, and most influential players on smashboards in the same post you are talking about playing games online with Xivii, someone who I have 3-stocked and 2-stocked in tournament; you are generally fairly close to the level of people you play against, so I am inclined to believe your personal reasoning isn't "I am a high caliber player with a large amount of experience in the tournament scene and have witnessed multiple accounts both in and outside of my own experience" (like we do), but instead is that you "feel really, really strongly about it".

But yeah, sure. Ness is obviously top tier, I mean look at all those good Ness players just busting at the seams. Destroyin' everyone. Never getting gimped. Or infinited.

>_>

yayuzz spams!!!

Yayuzz got in by making top 4 in the online tournament. Him being in the SBR doesn't make him immune from the forum moderators; if you have a problem with his posts, bring it up with a mod.

 

[Excellence]

HOW DID ME ASKING FOR HELP AGAIN NESS TURN INTO THIS?!

Can I have a more advice on the match-up or are people just going to argue things that could be done elsewhere?

@ Excellence: I apologize for the very terse reply I gave to you. I was just about to leave the house when I made that post; I should have just not done it :-/

@ Amazing Ampharos: While I agree with you on those stages for counterpicking, stages like Mario Circuit or any other stage with extreme walkoffs are banned in tournament play. IIRC Port Town Aero Drive is also banned because the cars are far too extreme of a hazard. Skyworld is also banned in tournament play which is a shame since it would be a fantastic G&W counterpick.

No matchup should ever be based on online play. PKT2 is leet online when you can't shield it/airdodge it, but it sucks as a reliable kill move in real-life play.

Remember this? PKT2 gets shut down.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189961

Apology accepted..

 

[Shaky]

My opinion is that, even though D3 is a very good character, G&W clearly has an advantage against him. Specifically for what Colin said ( D3 having disadvantage with the most played characters). Moreover, the SBR tier list should not be taken too seriously, since some parts of it are erroneous and vague.

And I don't see why Overswarm says "Simna got in through the back door", because it is evident that simna can beat some of the players in the SBR without much effort.

Anyways, I agree with AA's post on the stage list being ambiguous and inexplicit.


Good Day.

 

[LeeHarris]

OS just wrecked everyone's sauce.

Who's this Simna guy BTW? I've never once seen him post in the SBR and I've never seen his name in any tournament results.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Simply being good (to the extent that Simna is "good") doesn't get you in the SBR. Being in the SBR is much more a matter of how well you conduct yourself in a debate; i.e. are capable of original thought, can make legitimate arguments and back them up with logic and evidence. You should never take somebody's word for something simply because they are allegedly good at the game.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Yayuzz got in by making top 4 in the online tournament. Him being in the SBR doesn't make him immune from the forum moderators; if you have a problem with his posts, bring it up with a mod.

So did you. ;D

 

[Hylian]

So did you. ;D

You know..because he wasn't already in it or anything .

 

[Needle of Juntah]

hey how about you guys GET THE **** OFF MY BOARD and stop spamming all your bull****
SBR is full of SCRUBS period
THERE 2 GOOD GW PLAYERS ACTIVE RIGHT NOW, i think you guys should consider that before STFUING.
and no i didnt read all the posts and im never going to esp is theyre more than 1 sentence long

GW SUX AND IS LOW TIER GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

 

[Overswarm]

Simply being good (to the extent that Simna is "good") doesn't get you in the SBR. Being in the SBR is much more a matter of how well you conduct yourself in a debate; i.e. are capable of original thought, can make legitimate arguments and back them up with logic and evidence. You should never take somebody's word for something simply because they are allegedly good at the game.

also, Simna is known because he plays Ness. Not because he's good.

Just FYI

So did you. ;D

No. I was in it a full year before that and helped work on the Melee rule list. I just won the tournament anyway; I didn't want the possibility of 4 randoms getting in, so I lowered it to 3. ^_^

 

[XIF]

oh noes somebody joined this year at smashboards and knows eeeeevverything about Smashboards, the Smash Back Room, the old melee days, SBR member's thoughts, our methods for constructing rulesets and tier lists, and our collective knowledge of the game.

HEY GUYS! ABORT MISSION. HE HAS US FIGURED OUT ITS OVER SBR IS DEAD EVERBODY PANIC BWAAAAAAHHHH *jumps into passing train*

 

[Deleted member]

We also do see their reasoning with the stage list, and we can get a feeling for the flavor of their opinions. The SBR certainly isn't terrible at all, but they do clearly care about some things that are obviously not important ("bad ledges"...), and their reasoning for stages like Flat Zone 2 and the Summit didn't seem to address the real issues with the stages. The fact that they were deliberately completely opaque with the reasoning behind the tier list (the reasoning for this was literally "we aren't posting it because people might disagree with it") only raises suspicion about the quality of the arguments. The fact that the community literally ignores some of the things they post (no one even understood what I was talking about when I asked about the difference in the legality status between Princess Peach's Castle and Fourside in melee) also raises questions about their effectiveness as an organization (if they are comprised of the top level tournament people then why do some of the rule suggestions they make fail to take root in many if any real tournaments?). I'm sure this will be taken all the wrong way, but I hope you can see that these are serious concerns that create what I feel is a strong reason to be inclined to doubt what the SBR says about various things.

The SBR has the challenge of collecting ~40 separate opinions and posting them as 1 voice. Furthermore, many of those opinions are not 2 sided, but 8 and 9 sided.

If you feel that the SBR is ineffective, maybe it's time to revise some more policy.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Shouldn't this thread be closed for being so severely off topic?

 

[Excellence]

YES, because no one gives a **** about my question. All they're arguing about is their petty opinions and crap that doesn't concern Ness vs Mr. Game & Watch.

 

[Pink Reaper]

That will happen anytime Colin/AA post, as they believe they know everything about everything. I suggest remaking the topic.

 

[Neb]

The BR has envaded the G&W boards.
And c'mon, these 08 jokes are getting really old.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

At this point I'm just being forced to defend myself.

It's got nothing to do with trying to be aweome and secrative, but has to do with the fact that if they post their reasonings anyone and everyone who doens't agree 100% will call them out on it and be all "omg u guyz suk." It's the same reason why the SBR isn't view only, because we know that anything discussed back there will be spawning posts by everyone who has a bone to pick with anything anyone posted.

Yeah, I understand why the SBR isn't view only; people would censor what they have to say relative to how popular it will be and that's obviously bad for discussion. However, after a decision is made, compiling an agreed upon reason seems like it only strengthens it; just look at the real response to the tier list. The majority of posters seem to think it's totally bunk. Perhaps posting reasoning wouldn't change that, but it's really hard for me to see how it would hurt. I can definitely see some major upsides.

I'm not going to make another quote for the rules thing, but my issue is that the sticky thread on Tournament Listings clearly has the SBR seal of approval and lists Princess Peach's Castle as potentially counterpick legal... yet when I asked about it no one understood what I was talking about. Is that thread just out of date and overlooked for revision? I lurked for quite a while before making this account, and I remember it was generally agreed to be banned before that thread was made so I'm more noticing that that particular recommendation seemed to have no real effect.

However, you should also realize that you're discounting the largest collection of the smartest, most talented, and most influential players on smashboards in the same post you are talking about playing games online with Xivii, someone who I have 3-stocked and 2-stocked in tournament; you are generally fairly close to the level of people you play against, so I am inclined to believe your personal reasoning isn't "I am a high caliber player with a large amount of experience in the tournament scene and have witnessed multiple accounts both in and outside of my own experience" (like we do), but instead is that you "feel really, really strongly about it".

I only brought up Xiivi because I had a really amazing connection with him (it was the most ridiculously good connection in the history of WiFi); I seem to recall me doing very well when we played. I can't claim to have the deepest pool of tournament experience because, frankly, MO isn't that active for brawl and I'm not rich enough to travel out of state (I don't even own a car). And now I'm in Rolla, Missouri which is just about literally the middle of nowhere where my WiFi doesn't even work, and yes I am trying to get tournaments organized locally so I am doing all I can. I do have some tournament experience though, and I got a decent amount of practice against the best people in Kansas City. I can be honest about my ability. I was, as of the last time we played, worse than darkrain though not hopelessly worse (he was overall winning but I got some wins). I seemed to be better than the others in the group that played brawl consistently. I do study the way the game works a lot, and I'm legitimately dedicated to improvement. Judge my ability as you will.

But yeah, sure. Ness is obviously top tier, I mean look at all those good Ness players just busting at the seams. Destroyin' everyone. Never getting gimped. Or infinited.

I just have to point out that no one claimed this. To be honest, I think Ness is about at the midpoint of the cast. And yes, that's a personal opinion.

The SBR has the challenge of collecting ~40 separate opinions and posting them as 1 voice. Furthermore, many of those opinions are not 2 sided, but 8 and 9 sided.

If you feel that the SBR is ineffective, maybe it's time to revise some more policy.

I do understand that it's hard, but by claiming such prestige, doesn't the SBR claim to be able to do things that are really hard? I really didn't expect perfection (actually the SBR stage list somewhat exceeded my expectations), but a few things like mentioning "bad ledges" seemed really out of character for a high level stage list. I've seen "high level" policy formation in the Pokemon community; I know it's a nightmare. I've never actually said the SBR is bad (I don't think it is); I was just pointing out specific things that everyone can see that seem to raise questions.

Ineffective specifically means that what they post doesn't cause much effect; it's not actually a statement about the quality of the posts. I knew that would be pretty misunderstood but couldn't see how to communicate it clearly; the issue is that it seems like some of the things they post are actually just flat out ignored by the community as a whole (such as Princess Peach's Castle being an acceptable, if not necessarily legal, stage in melee). I don't know what the explanation for this is; I've been curious about it for a very long time actually.

I really didn't mean to open this can of worms, and I've tried to be careful in limiting the scope of what I've been claiming. I'm mostly talking about perceptions of the SBR from outside. Is Simna not a credible SBR member who doesn't accurately depict the happenings back there? We don't have any way of knowing. When you don't know, you just form a theory based on the best evidence you can find. Colin and I made what was doubtless an ultimately poor judgment in actually saying what we were thinking (about just a few of the many questions we might have about the SBR), but I don't think this sort of thing is uncommon. It's really more a consequence of the SBR being a very opaque organization, and I am at this point just trying to clear the air of misunderstandings.

Anyway, I think everything that is going to be said about Ness vs Mr. Game & Watch has already been said. I imagine the whole board here has looked at this topic by now so if you still haven't gotten information maybe you could try asking the Ness board?

 

[Deleted member]

I do understand that it's hard, but by claiming such prestige, doesn't the SBR claim to be able to do things that are really hard? I really didn't expect perfection (actually the SBR stage list somewhat exceeded my expectations), but a few things like mentioning "bad ledges" seemed really out of character for a high level stage list. I've seen "high level" policy formation in the Pokemon community; I know it's a nightmare. I've never actually said the SBR is bad (I don't think it is); I was just pointing out specific things that everyone can see that seem to raise questions.

To answer you clearly, Simna is not one of the 40 or so active members, but one of many side members who have access based on modship. At some point a year or two ago, many moderator positions opened up, allowing many questionable placements. I actually agree with you all over. I don't think secrecy is good for anything. I also disagree with the SBR's policy of prestige and eliteness, but these are recent changes.

IMO, the SBR should retain its purpose of being a closed room for tournament hosts, top players, and otherwise noteworthy players for smash discussion. I don't like the elitist attitude of "this is what you do, and we're not telling you why" for tournament rules, but it's at the discretion of many and not one. However, as long as we are creating a set of recommended rules, I will do my best to make them worthwhile.

I STILL want pictochat banned. It's a stupid stage.

I think the SBR is having severe quality issues at the moment as well, and a couple others that I've talked to agree with me. hopefully it's just a phase. Until then, do as I've done for years and treat simna like a joke. lol.

Colin: ok, that's enough. I can cite a full resume of tournament play and host experience, and I've been at the front of tournament rule changes for years, but that doesn't really matter when the two of us are compared since you offer NOTHING AT ALL.

Let's review your contributions to the smash community: 105 posts, of which about 90 are *****ing about something, anything, at any given time. You have no experience as a tournament level player, NOT EVEN IN CANADA. You have nothing for hosting tournaments, no notable accomplishments as a player, not even a significant amount of character knowledge because you simply refuse to accept that your strategies are a collaboration of easily refutable theories and a general lack of credit assigned to all characters but your own.

Assuming you carried any weight at all in the smash community, you can't even wield your faux e-***** because no one cares enough to read past your first 2 lines of *****ing to see if you've stated something of merit. Your posts usually default to petty attacks, and several times I've deliberately ASKED you to debate me with objective points and you WILL NOT DO IT.

Make worthwhile posts. Actually, you don't even have to do that. Just stop being a *****.

 

[ColinJF]

I'm sorry this has to be so harsh, but I'm not sure how else to reply to such a denunciation. The best part is how your post is basically a personal attack while simultaneously accusing me of having nothing but personal attacks. In reality, I rarely personally attack people... but I'm not sure if I will be able to unravel it from this post.

I may not have a fantastic reputation like you Mia, but I can piece together the following facts

• many aerials come out in less than 10 frames
• human reaction time is around 12 frames
• air dodges have startup and ending lag

to conclude that aerials in Brawl have to be air dodged on prediction, which allows for your air dodge to be baited, and that you can be hit even if you do air dodge since they have ending lag.

I would assume that such a simple analysis -- I just typed that in about ten seconds -- would be well within reach of a top calibre player such as yourself. But apparently not:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41531&page=15

I do think that Ness has better aerial attacks, but that's where Brawl's mechanics come into play. You can simply hold away from Ness in the air and repeatedly air dodge to safety. [...] I personally dislike that air dodging is a cure-all to avoiding aerial combat, but to not acknowledge it as is would be silly.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5422854&postcount=550

Brawl [...] allows all air games to be negated with air dodging, etc.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5374737&postcount=32

I think all air games are equal, since you can choose not to fight in the air by mashing air dodge.

stupid bad mechanics.

I could find more, but I think the point is obvious. In fact, if you knew anything about Brawl, you would know that "mashing air dodge" is an excellent way to be hit in the air because of the aforementioned startup and ending lag of air dodges. I know this is blunt, but I just don't understand why you try to defend your authority on Brawl when it's so obvious you don't play it. Just admit you know nothing about the game and stick to Melee. This isn't addressed to the SBR, it's just addressed to you. (I apologise to the majority of the SBR which I should hope realises that mashing air dodge is not a good way to avoid being hit in the air, but this really needs to be said.)

Your comment about "objective debate" almost made me laugh. The usual way you respond to anything is "you don't have any experience in competitive smash" or similar arguments from authority (hell, you even did it in the above post). This sleight of hand isn't going to work against anybody who understands how to formulate an argument.

Mia on the infinite dimensional cape for example:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1365480&postcount=198

The infinite cape is not banned, and it will probably remain legal. [...] There is however, a much higher chance of edge stalling being banned.

ColinJF you don't know what you're talking about.

Edge stalling being banned? I'm half surprised he hasn't also proposed banning air dodging. Or spot dodging. Or shielding. Also notice the use of his preferred debate technique (asserting that the person he is talking to lacks experience and therefore should be disregarded).

Your "review" of my contributions to the smash community is basically an extended verison of the above, although it's especially entertaining in that it places so much emphasis on my quantity of posts. I have tournament experience by the way... as much as it's possible to have living in Alberta and not having played melee... which is two tournaments, and the latter was in July; there isn't another one in the near future. I got seventh at my second tournament which I am sure translates into about 129th in Virgina or whatever, but it isn't practical for me to travel to the US to play against you and your top tier air dodge mashing technique. I'd certainly like to be able to play high calibre players every week, but it just doesn't work that way where I live, and it isn't really my fault. (I don't even have a passport by the way... the amount of effort it would be to travel to the US to play in some tournament when I'm not even the best player here yet is pretty insane, not to mention the cost.) I'd like to in the future though, maybe in a couple of years.

Your comment about a lack of character knowledge just plain confuses me. What are you even basing that on? I don't even post very much about my strategies, and I outright admitted above that I only claim match up knowledge against half the cast. I have a pretty outstanding knowledge of game mechanics. So yeah, I'm not a top player, but I don't claim to be, and I don't predicate my posts on my experience.

You can have as long of a resume as you want, Mia, but when so much of what you post is completely unsubstantiated, it doesn't count for much. As I said above, I'm sorry this had to be so personal, but I'm not sure how else to reply to what is basically an extended personal attack against me.

Good day.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

YES, because no one gives a **** about my question. All they're arguing about is their petty opinions and crap that doesn't concern Ness vs Mr. Game & Watch.

what the *** r u talking about


ok sorry ima be polite BUT DONT ***** PUSH IT TO AN END

Ness vs GW = bucket. thanks for playing

 

[ColinJF]

I thought you didn't use the bucket, NoJ.

(It's not that good versus Ness anyway.)

 

[Hylian]

I thought you didn't use the bucket, NoJ.

(It's not that good versus Ness anyway.)

Yeah, because absorbing your opponents recovery and getting a full bucket out of it isn't that useful at all.

 

[Lolita]

Yeah, because absorbing your opponents recovery and getting a full bucket out of it isn't that useful at all.

I'm just going to throw it out there right now that the bucket isn't all that useful useful against non-moron Ness users. The tail of Pk Thunder and the pillar of Pk Fire both give very weak Oil Panics, and Ness won't be letting you get the head of Pk Thunder, the bolt of Pk Fire, or Pk Flash. The gimp with the bucket is really nice on paper but really tricky in practice; Ness can exploit the lag on absorbing a projectile with the bucket to turn your gimp into a suicide kill. You should still use the bucket if Ness tries to be spammy with Pk Thunder as a long range projectile or once in a while when you predict it, but don't expect the bucket to be a big factor in this matchup.

I'm not an expert on smash, but I do agree with AA here.

 

[Hylian]

I'm not an expert on smash, but I do agree with AA here.

The gimp with the bucket isn't tricky in any way. All you do is run off the stage and use the bucket right beside ness. The bucket has really nice range on what it absorbs and it will be impossibile for ness to hit himself without GW absorbing it. Oh, and GW can make it back from the very bottom of FD with his double jump and upB. No good GW is just going to fall to thier death.

Another easy way to gimp is to just fall under Ness and then use up-B or uair. It's almost impossibile for ness to catch himself after being blown upwards.

Another easy way to fill your bucket is to let ness hit you with PK fire. Just tap-DI out(it's really easy if you know how to di) and then mash down B. Your bucket is instantly filled. You can do this before ness runs up and grabs you.

Keep in mind that the oil spill comes out in 1 frame and goes through every attack in the game.

I have played quite a few Ness players in tournament actually, and I also play Ness myself. I find it to be one of GW's easiest match-ups. I've also played many ness players online (Simna,NoNessNoProblems,etc) and never had a problem with them. Though that doesn't matter at all because online sucks and doesn't represent your actual skill in almost any way.

 

[cutter]

I'm not an expert on smash, but I do agree with AA here.

Since when is another smash attack (assuming you absorb PK Fire pillar or PKT tail) that hits on frame 1 a bad thing?

Looks like Colin and AA invoked the wrath of the SBR.

EDIT: Dammit Hylian, thanks for beating me to it

 

[Needle of Juntah]

Since when is another smash attack (assuming you absorb PK Fire pillar or PKT tail) that hits on frame 1 a bad thing?

Looks like Colin and AA invoked the wrath of the SBR.

EDIT: Dammit Hylian, thanks for beating me to it

SBR wrath is pretty scary ill admit, luckily i can adapt and evolve to their bull****

 

[Needle of Juntah]

the day i get into the SBR is the day smash might have a chance

 

[ColinJF]

Hylian: Oil Panic only comes out on frame 1 right in front of Game & Watch... if you keep your distance you can block it every time. Game & Watch has a pretty hard time defending against pk thunder (keep in mind that you can't attack the tail...) without his bucket as well.

Ness rarely has to use pk thunder 2 to recover and when he does he can use aerials to attack you before you get to him, and he isn't going to do it from a position where you can use Fire from below him (or up air). The bucket gimp does happen, but it happens rarely. Doing pk thunder 2 from the optimal angle takes a lot of precision though (as opposed to just doing a basic recovery) so that can be difficult to do online, as I am sure you recognise.

There is a lot of subtlety to pk thunder by the way... I say that just as a general comment in response to you playing Ness. I notice that when really good players who don't main Ness play Ness they often don't use pk thunder much.

At least you've played this match up though, unlike some other people who have commented on it before. I won't disregard your experience, but I disagree with your opinion on the match up.

 

[Conclusively]

lol "bucket" of tricks good one

icwutudidthar.

GAW has range advantage over Ness. And Bucket. Pretty much all you need.

 

[ColinJF]

He has a small range advantage in turtle versus Ness's forward air.

Ness generally outranges him on the ground though, and everywhere with pk thunder.

 

[DMG]

G&W vs Ness : 65 : 35 or higher. GG, that's it, we could have just said stuff like G&W has stronger attacks, better range, better recovery, etc. and the thread could have been over.

Sigh...

Edit: Can Ness out range Dtilt? Otherwise G&W beats him out in range on the ground as well.

 

[Hylian]

Hylian: Oil Panic only comes out on frame 1 right in front of Game & Watch... if you keep your distance you can block it every time. Game & Watch has a pretty hard time defending against pk thunder (keep in mind that you can't attack the tail...) without his bucket as well.

It's like you forget that GW has this thing called a shield .

Ness rarely has to use pk thunder 2 to recover and when he does he can use aerials to attack you before you get to him, and he isn't going to do it from a position where you can use Fire from below him (or up air). The bucket gimp does happen, but it happens rarely. Doing pk thunder 2 from the optimal angle takes a lot of precision though (as opposed to just doing a basic recovery) so that can be difficult to do online, as I am sure you recognise.

I don't really know how to change your opinion on this one. Ness is one of the easiest characters to edgeguard with GW. My fair goes through all of your attacks and I can just jump out and fair into anything. I'm starting to wonder if you have even played a good GW before. If so...who were they?

There is a lot of subtlety to pk thunder by the way... I say that just as a general comment in response to you playing Ness. I notice that when really good players who don't main Ness play Ness they often don't use pk thunder much.

At least you've played this match up though, unlike some other people who have commented on it before. I won't disregard your experience, but I disagree with your opinion on the match up.

Oh, I know pleanty well how to use PKT. It's in fact my favorite thing to do when playing Ness. I love faking out my opponents into a PKT2.

Honestly though, you just seem too stubborn to change your mind. How am I supposed to convince you? On paper GW vs Ness looks horribile for Ness. GW has better range, better kill moves, more mobility, better grab follow-ups, completly shut's down Ness's air game, has many gimps on Ness..etc.

Ness has very little on GW. GW is light and Ness can kill him easily from a throw. That's about the only actual advantage Ness has on GW. I don't understand how you could think Ness vs GW isn't a bad match-up for Ness. Could you elaborate?

A ness player has never come close to beating one of the top 3 GW players. I have never even been brought down to last stock from a Ness. Ness is one of my favorite characters to play and I know a lot about him. I don't see any feasible way he could even have a 50:50 match-up with GW. GW's Nair+Bair shuts down Ness air game and his Dtilt's IASA frames makes it very hard for ness to even approach GW. GW is one of the hardest characters in the game to grab, he can escape nasty situations easily with up B, he has one of the best grab set-ups(uthrow, not dthrow mind you), he has an easy way to refresh his moves...there are just so many blatant advantages GW has over Ness that I think you are neglecting.

 

[ColinJF]

The block is a good edge guard versus Ness. It's a lot better than the bucket.

Shielding is good versus pk thunder, but Game & Watch won't always be on the ground.

Ness can approach Game & Watch with down air if he commits to the turtle. Ness can use pk fire and pk thunder versus retreating turtles as well (pk thunder in particular is really fast). Ness's dash attack and forward smash outrange most of what Game & Watch has on the ground. Down tilt is good, but he can just jump over and use forward air... it comes out too fast to attack him in the direction he's coming at, and if you do Fire, Ness can follow you up and his up air beats the start of the key (not the latter parts of it though). (Neutral air is good versus the latter parts of the key.) The turtle really doesn't shut down Ness's air game because it comes out slower than several of Ness's aerials (including the forward air), even though it marginally outranges them. Ness has multiple options versus the fish bowl, but I think it's more threatening against Ness in the air than the turtle at least.

Ness can kill Game & Watch at under 30% with pk thunder 2, and Game & Watch has a couple of moves that make him especially vulnerable to it, like the key and the bucket. (The bucket makes him vulnerable because absorbing the tail is just as good as being hit by it... both combo into pk thunder 2.) Overall I think Game & Watch can be less vulnerable or more vulnerable to it than other characters depending on how you use the bucket. It's still good though.

Most Game & Watch players seem to prefer down throw, but I agree that up throw is better. I haven't had it used effectively against me though. Ness's up and forward throws are really good for follow up as well though, and if Game & Watch doesn't finish the turtle in the air he is fairly easy to grab if he makes a small spacing error (like you can roll behind the turtle and grab in its landing lag or SDI through it).

My estimate for the odds on this match up were originally 55-45 Game & Watch. I don't think it's a big advantage. You're right that I haven't played one of these "top three Game & Watch players" but it seems a bit unreasonable for me to have to have played the best players of a character to have an opinion on the match up. (Were the Nesses you played offline notable at all?)

 

[Hylian]

The block is a good edge guard versus Ness. It's a lot better than the bucket.

Shielding is good versus pk thunder, but Game & Watch won't always be on the ground.

Ness can approach Game & Watch with down air if he commits to the turtle. Ness can use pk fire and pk thunder versus retreating turtles as well (pk thunder in particular is really fast). Ness's dash attack and forward smash outrange most of what Game & Watch has on the ground. Down tilt is good, but he can just jump over and use forward air... it comes out too fast to attack him in the direction he's coming at, and if you do Fire, Ness can follow you up and his up air beats the start of the key (not the latter parts of it though). (Neutral air is good versus the latter parts of the key.) The turtle really doesn't shut down Ness's air game because it comes out slower than several of Ness's aerials (including the forward air), even though it marginally outranges them. Ness has multiple options versus the fish bowl, but I think it's more threatening against Ness in the air than the turtle at least.

Ness can kill Game & Watch at under 30% with pk thunder 2, and Game & Watch has a couple of moves that make him especially vulnerable to it, like the key and the bucket. (The bucket makes him vulnerable because absorbing the tail is just as good as being hit by it... both combo into pk thunder 2.) Overall I think Game & Watch can be less vulnerable or more vulnerable to it than other characters depending on how you use the bucket. It's still good though.

Most Game & Watch players seem to prefer down throw, but I agree that up throw is better. I haven't had it used effectively against me though. Ness's up and forward throws are really good for follow up as well though, and if Game & Watch doesn't finish the turtle in the air he is fairly easy to grab if he makes a small spacing error (like you can roll behind the turtle and grab in its landing lag or SDI through it).

My estimate for the odds on this match up were originally 55-45 Game & Watch. I don't think it's a big advantage. You're right that I haven't played one of these "top three Game & Watch players" but it seems a bit unreasonable for me to have to have played the best players of a character to have an opinion on the match up. (Were the Nesses you played offline notable at all?)

I see you don't know much about GW. I'll leave it at that .

Oh, and I don't think there is such a thing as a notable Ness player. Show me a Ness player with good tournament placings. They don't exist.

 

[ColinJF]

Well are you going to enlighten me about Game & Watch? I'm curious.

You're the Game & Watch expert here. I'm just speaking based on what I've seen, not claiming to be a Game & Watch expert.

 

[cj.Shark]

if GnW has such a big advantage on Ness then WHYYY are people like NoNNP(aka Nony ha ha) and Simna beating me when i was playing ladder. WHY???!!!!! i failz as a Gnw secondary T_T.

 

[Hylian]

if GnW has such a big advantage on Ness then WHYYY are people like NoNNP(aka Nony ha ha) and Simna beating me when i was playing ladder. WHY???!!!!! i failz as a Gnw secondary T_T.

Online play doesn't mean anything.

Also, I have beaten both of those players online lol. (Not that it means anything >_>)

And how can I enlighten you Colin? You just respond with situational information that never really comes into play in a match. For example you can't just jump over GW when he dtilts and fair or dair him because dtilt has IASA frames, and your not taking spacing into consideration. I'm not just going to be spamming Dtilt mindlessly lol. You can also not just jump over GW and dair him when he approachs with bair because good GW players will approach with a full hop, use their DJ to get a reaction out of you, then do a falling bair spaced so that you cannot punish it easily.

Players don't just do the same things over and over and there isn't always an answer to things people do. You have to take into account human reaction time, spacing, when the moves were executed...there are many factors that come into play. Knowing what should happen in a situation won't always get you out of it.

I can't explain the match-up to you without you being able to come up with counterpoints. There is always an answer to everything on paper and this makes discussing match-ups hard. The fact is that GW has more range on the majority of his moves, as well as better kill potiential and frame data. There are no tournament results proving Ness can even stand a chance against GW, but there are pleanty of ness players that have lost to GW players.

There simply isn't a way for me to convince you without playing you or someone you consider good.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think some objective analysis is in order here. I decided to do some tests in training mode related to what's being discussed. This seems to mostly be in favor of Ness actually.

Mr. Game & Watch's vertical recovery (including the double jump) is approximately 5 stage builder blocks. Ness moves up somewhere between 4 and 4.5 stage builder blocks with PKT2, and that includes the amount he falls while steering it (very small). The amount you fall from absorption lag is very hard to measure but seems a little over 1 block unless that particular absorption fills the bucket in which case you hardly fall at all. Thinking solely in 1d, it seems like Ness can force Mr. Game & Watch to suicide by not using Pk Thunder until he has fallen a tiny bit more than 4 blocks. If Mr. Game & Watch buckets it here, they both die. If the bucket has been put away, Ness gets to recover. Precision measurements are hard and I may be wrong (maybe Mr. Game & Watch forces the kill by a very small margin), and I don't account for putting away the bucket earlier and just talking the hit from Pk Thunder like the rest of the cast. It also doesn't account for horizontal movement which makes this problem way too complicated for my analysis methods (like what if you are 2 blocks right of the ledge when doing this?). At the very least, I don't think it's obvious that the bucket is beating out Pk Thunder 2 recoveries if Ness is smart... unless of course the bucket already has 2 charges in it.

I also did a range test on Mr. Game & Watch's forward aerial versus Ness's. Ness's has more range. It's not much more, but it is a little. By myself I can't rigorously examine the priorities, but my experiences suggest to me that Ness's forward aerial generally does beat out Mr. Game & Watch's. I also did a range test of Mr. Game & Watch's down tilt versus Ness's up smash. Ness's up smash just barely outranges it just like the forward aerial just barely outranges. Mr. Game & Watch's turtle pushes him forward by a non-negligible amount when he uses it (Ness's forward aerial pushes him forward by a negligible amount probably related to hitting the c-stick which counts as a quick smash input). I'm pretty sure it outranges Ness's forward aerial, but a rigorous test wasn't possible for me.

 

[hotgarbage]

For example you can't just jump over GW when he dtilts and fair or dair him because dtilt has IASA frames, and your not taking spacing into consideration.

That's true, in that his dtilt has 0 cooldown (cooldown being the period of time where the hitbox is no longer out and the character cannot perform an action). Cooldown is a bit misleading though.... At it's root cooldown is an attempt to measure how punishable a move is, but there are other factors to consider. For an example, peach's ftilt has 20 frames of cooldown, but this is a poor measurement of how punishable it is. This is because for 10 frames a small hitbox lingers on the tip of her foot above her, making her vulnerable to any ground attack, so when attacking a grounded opponent the move has 30 cooldown for all practical purposes. So in addition to cooldown the position of the hitbox and the move's overall duration need to be taken into consideration when figuring out how punishable it is. In the case of G&W's dtilt, the hitbox is on the ground (though it reaches a surprising amount upwards iirc). So if the move had a long duration the hitbox could easily be circumvented by jumping over it and punishing where the hitbox is not. This isn't the case though. The move has a short duration (25 frames). Add to the equation human reaction time (about 12 frames) and your opponent has 13 frames to punish it from the air. Add in jumping lag at that makes 9 frames to travel the distance and launch an aerial. That isn't possible for anyone in this game I don't think. Of course it can be punished like this if the G&W is being predictable or spammy... but this applies to nearly every move in the game (save some of MK's crap ). So yeah, your point stands, I just used your post as an excuse to ramble on about this crap


/massive rambling

Keep in mind that the oil spill comes out in 1 frame

Since when is another smash attack (assuming you absorb PK Fire pillar or PKT tail) that hits on frame 1 a bad thing?

Hylian: Oil Panic only comes out on frame 1 right in front of Game & Watch...

Actually it comes out on frame 2. Sorry for the confusion. That's probably stemming from me at first using "startup" instead of "hits on frame ____". Here's the data on it's release :

• Closest - hits on frame 2
• Midway - hits on frame 8
• Tip of the spill - hits on frame 14

Note that it's somewhat difficult to hit with the middle part, so chances are you'll be hitting with the closest or furthest part of the spill.

fun fact: Oil panic is G&W's fastest and (potentially) strongest move.
EDIT:

<MrEsc> It also is his farthest reaching move
<MrEsc> biggest range
<MrEsc> It is*
<MrEsc> not also is
<MrEsc> though both work
<MrEsc> FFFFF
<MrEsc> IT CAN GO BOTH WAYS HALP

^this too

*get's back to work on getting advantage data ;_____;*

 

[Brinzy]

Because Zelda sucks and your Ness is weak.
Colin is the king.
All hail, all hail.

Or maybe your G&W is just weak. Blatant advantage to G&W. Zelda > Ness fo realz.

Honestly though, the main reason why you're probably having trouble with Colin is because he knows how to mindgame to hell and back. That said, why do you think his mindgaming ability (it's in the player anyway) and his B-throw (the only area where he's really flat out better at) make this an even fight? Outranged like hell on the ground, has trouble in the air of all places, can be gimped relatively easy (just listen for "PK" and hit Down B for -1 stock), and has a ton of power behind his killing blows. There's no way in the hell this is an even fight, and if you believe this is an even fight, you should probably start playing Ness players around your level, no offense or flaming intended.

 

[Shaky]

In my opinion, it's not that easy to bucket ness while he's recovering ( Experienced Ness Players at least). Ness has plenty of ways in which he can avoid being bucketed ( i.e Just avoid using PKT2 below the stage). Spacing has also a lot to do with this. If a Ness player knows the range of G&W first and second jump, they can easily space the PKT2.

<MrEsc> I dont see why Raphael mentions outranging on the ground, when the only move on the ground G&W has thats longer reaching than the Yo-Yo is Oil Panic

Originally posted by Successor of Raphael
Honestly though, the main reason why you're probably having trouble with Colin is because he knows how to mindgame to hell and back.

Well, you are practically assuming that Colin just PKT2's and Back Throw's. Which, to an extent, is not entirely true. Those may be his main killing moves, but Colin uses a variety of attacks during his matches.