Ganondorf's Match-ups discussion. (2nd Page Updated.)

[@HomE]

There are places between "far away" and "close."

How about "inside zair, outside Samus' dtilt"?

That would be called... THE STOMP ZONE

 

[Xyro77]

if any of you wanna play me. AIM me at xyro77

it will help u learn the match-up slightly

 

[Koskinator]

Xyro I'm pretty sure the last time you played a Ganon on Wifi you lost like, 10 times in a row and got 3 stocked....



OWAIT


LOLOLOLLOOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Clai]

I can't even think of when Gannon has an advantage;
Far away = zair and missile ****
Close = up-b ****
Off stage = ridiculous gimp and spike ****

No offense to any Gannon mains (you guys are too pro) but the Samus must be doing something very wrong if they are not winning at least 7/10 matches.

For 'far away,' it's not like we can't hit all of the missiles/powershield them. Missiles aren't exactly the hardest projectiles to get around.

For 'close,' since I train with a Samus main, I have been able to SDI out of Samus' up+B on occasion, and if you get out of it before the last hit sends you away, Samus could get punished pretty hard.

For 'off stage,' our spike **** > your spike ****; honestly, though, yeah, you destroy us there.

+ You spelt our name wrong, Tudor. How could you?

 

[Xyro77]

For 'far away,' it's not like we can't hit all of the missiles/powershield them. Missiles aren't exactly the hardest projectiles to get around.

For 'close,' since I train with a Samus main, I have been able to SDI out of Samus' up+B on occasion, and if you get out of it before the last hit sends you away, Samus could get punished pretty hard.

For 'off stage,' our spike **** > your spike ****; honestly, though, yeah, you destroy us there.

+ You spelt our name wrong, Tudor. How could you?

Missles and Z-air arnt always meant for damage purposes. its meant to control how you move. we also use things like missle to grab or air to grab...stuff like that


also, falling u-air to up+b WILL hit ganon. its free damage. we can do it from platforms or out of an airdodge.

 

[Crystanium]

No offense to any Gannon mains (you guys are too pro) but the Samus must be doing something very wrong if they are not winning at least 7/10 matches.

:/ Ray_Kalm 5-0 my Samus. I don't get a whole of experience against good Ganondorf mains. They're rare.

 

[Xyro77]

:/ Ray_Kalm 5-0 my Samus. I don't get a whole of experience against good Ganondorf mains. They're rare.

wow.....

ok i played this guy with the tag named "cream" and i we played about 20+ matches. i won the majority by far but he did wina few.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is where you are wrong. For the last time, Ganon CAN NOT punish a properly spaced ZAir. Get a video to prove me wrong. Samus could easily buffer a jump, air-dodge, or spot-dodge out of it.

If you're letting Samus properly space Z-airs 100% of the time, that is something wrong with you. She can only properly space it if she manages to space it at maximum range at the lowest height possible. Anything less than that, and it's punishable with DA out of shield. If you're inside the range of her Z-air but outside the range of her F-smash, you're at the advantage. Throwing out an aerial, Z-air, or SH missile is risky from this position as she will risk getting interrupted by DA.

This is true, but the start-up lag on Samus's missiles BENEFIT Samus in this match-up. Why? I'll tell you why.

Put this scenario in your head: Ganon power-shielding his way through several amounts ZAirs, he reaches mid-range, what would you do at that time?

1.) Power-shield her next ZAir, then punish? No. Any move you do WILL get blocked or avoided, and then punished.

2.) If Samus doesn't ZAir, missiles instead, the ONLY thing you could do then is shield. You can't jump, the 1 frame of lag, it has, will get you punished. You can't spot-dodge, it'll only put you in a worse place. You could roll towards her, to only avoid that one missile, and possibly get punished by another move, nothing else. You could roll away, to well, start approaching again.

You should be interrupting Z-airs and Missiles with DAs if she's trying to STILL camp you from that range. The main problem in this matchup is that the counter to the way you get around her camping is a shieldgrab, so it does take a degree of prediction to avoid getting grabbed. In fact I don't see any reason why Samus should jump when you're in mid range. It's too punishable.

 

[Crystanium]

wow.....

ok i played this guy with the tag named "cream" and i we played about 20+ matches. i won the majority by far but he did wina few.

What, Xyro? I'm not pro like you. I don't fight a lot of Ganondorf mains. I've only fought like what, four? It's what you'd expect. Besides, Ray_Kalm is in Canada, I'm in the U.S. That doesn't help. It's not like he two-stocked me.

 

[Koskinator]

Lol I 3 stocked Xyro.




:D

 

[Ant1]

Lol I 3 stocked Xyro.

:D

lolol, samus just couldn't withstand Ganon's electric charged iron boots on her face.
@Dryn: that's the thing with low tier mainers, no one really has any experience vs them, The higher tier mainers all play against MK's, Snake's etc. And when they come across Ganon they aren't experienced enough, but on the other hand the ganon main has had lots of experience vs their character.

 

[stRIP]

lolol, samus just couldn't withstand Ganon's electric charged iron boots on her face.
@Dryn: that's the thing with low tier mainers, no one really has any experience vs them, The higher tier mainers all play against MK's, Snake's etc. And when they come across Ganon they aren't experienced enough, but on the other hand the ganon main has had lots of experience vs their character.

Exactly this

one time i tested some1 for the best german clan. I played Falco and Snake, to look how he does vs. Spam. k, matches ALL were close, very close.

I took Ganon, 3stocked him, and 3stocked him again...the third match...i 3stockd him :D

No experience vs ganon=ololololol

thats the way im making a lot of material for my combovideo :>

 

[TP]

wow.....

ok i played this guy with the tag named "cream" and i we played about 20+ matches. i won the majority by far but he did wina few.

Way to fail, Squirrely. <_<

Time to throw my hat in the ring, since I sorta started all this. Any Samus main PM me.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

So I was reading up the match-up's and it hurt my heart.

At least the Ganon vs. Ganon match-up made me lol

 

[Squirrely]

Way to fail, Squirrely. <_<

Time to throw my hat in the ring, since I sorta started all this. Any Samus main PM me.

Oh come on. I killed myself and was otherwise messing around in most of those matches. I was there to just experiment with the match-up and learn like he suggested, not to win.

Xyro wasn't there to learn though, he was there to win >.>
The price of education.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

If Ganon can avoid being smashed away at a low trajectory (with good DI), Samus should have a hella hard time KO'ing him.

25:75

People tend to think this a lot.

Samus doesn't have a hard time killing. A sweetspotted DTilt, UTilt, BAir, NAir near the edge (unstaled [which it always is]), and FSmash, could kill easily.

Also, might as well mention this, her FTilt could punish a fully spaced DTilt even after Ganon pulls back his leg.

@Dave: When?

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-tilt doesn't kill if you know DI and fastfalling.
U-tilt is even worse at killing.
B-air is almost unviable. ALMOST. For the same reasons Ganondorf's B-air is extremely difficult to use.
N-air is too weak unless sweetspotted, and is unsafe. It's good offstage however as an edgeguard. Her D-air also deserves a nod as an edgeguard.
F-smash is OKish but still much too weak if you know DI and fastfalling. It doesn't have the luxury of amazing safety either.

 

[smashkng]

Ganondorf counters no-one but he has two lethal attacks. Falco should be careful against Ganondorf to not need to use up b or Falco get punished by Ganon's dair. Overall every counters Ganondorf but be careful by his super strong attacks.

 

[hyperstation]

lolol, samus just couldn't withstand Ganon's electric charged iron boots on her face.
@Dryn: that's the thing with low tier mainers, no one really has any experience vs them, The higher tier mainers all play against MK's, Snake's etc. And when they come across Ganon they aren't experienced enough, but on the other hand the ganon main has had lots of experience vs their character.

Off topic:

Ant, are you DJBrowny's brother? If so, I'm glad you're on smash boards. You've got an ace Ganon, and it's dope that you're representing for him in the land down under (and winning).

EDIT: these numbers look pretty good, Kalm.

 

[MoblinMan]

I don't want to start another thread to ask this. so I'll post it here.

Could someone explain exactly the timing for getting past samus' camping strategy?
I always get zaired.

Since upon landing it has no lag whatsoever, even if I shield the Zair I've got absolutely no time to punish, no matter how close I am. They usually spotdodge, grab, or just SH into another Zair because they know I've given up trying to punish


The closest counter I can think of is a well timed Dash attacked into them after they short hop, but before they Zair. Since they usually use Zair right before they hit the ground.

On the other hand, Ganondorf is so tall they could really use it any time during their short hop and still stuff his approach. So, any tips specifically?

 

[PK-ow!]

How does Ganondorf do against SoPo? Solo Popo for people who don't know that term.

I ask because... well... if there's a chance we can consistently murder Nana... and improve our hopes on the Popo.... we'd have to be better off than how we are now against them, right?

... and I could be wrong, but there's an idea brewing in my head on how to do it. I need testing though, and I'll do it myself so as not to get anyone's hopes up.

 

[Teronist09]

How does Ganondorf do against SoPo? Solo Popo for people who don't know that term.

I ask because... well... if there's a chance we can consistently murder Nana... and improve our hopes on the Popo.... we'd have to be better off than how we are now against them, right?

... and I could be wrong, but there's an idea brewing in my head on how to do it. I need testing though, and I'll do it myself so as not to get anyone's hopes up.

I think SoPo can dthrow cg a few times for some damage, and if you're stupid they can keep you away with ice block and blizzard, but it's pretty much in favor of Ganon. You get back choke and it's followups, though, and you can go over blizzard pretty easily. Once Nana is gone most IC would probably just be trying to rack up as much damage as possible before they die so they can grab and smash you on the next stock, so you just have to make sure you don't go offstage and get gimped before you kill them.

Getting rid of Nana is more of an issue than dealing with Popo, though. I don't think anyone really bothers with any options Sopo might have.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I don't want to start another thread to ask this. so I'll post it here.

Could someone explain exactly the timing for getting past samus' camping strategy?
I always get zaired.

Since upon landing it has no lag whatsoever, even if I shield the Zair I've got absolutely no time to punish, no matter how close I am. They usually spotdodge, grab, or just SH into another Zair because they know I've given up trying to punish


The closest counter I can think of is a well timed Dash attacked into them after they short hop, but before they Zair. Since they usually use Zair right before they hit the ground.

On the other hand, Ganondorf is so tall they could really use it any time during their short hop and still stuff his approach. So, any tips specifically?

There isn't one. Good Samuses know how to toy around with Ganon's poor speed, moves and maneuverability. All you should do, mindgame her into your attacks. Really all I could say.

 

[Kiyuzoh]

Quick question. I know this sounds a little far fetched, but would a Ganon be able to get past Samus's camping tactics by using the Flight of Ganon? Considering they're already good at the short hop airdodge version, and the Samus gets very confused, we might be able to get past her wall of Z-airs. This wouldn't work more than once, because they'll expect it and punish your falling Ganon with an up-B (If Ganon was falling down at you from a large distance, what would you Samus mains do?).

As of right now, if you do use FOG to get past Samus's camping, I can think of only 4 good ideas on what to do to get in range of her.

1) Possibly a down-B in the air to send her up, and abuse her with up-airs. (?)
2) A thunder stomp in her face. (Make sure it connects, or you're in trouble.)
3) Fast-fall a N-air so that the sex kick of the second hit taps her away, and grounded flame choke. (This is most likely the worst choice, because Samus won't get hit far enough away at low percents)
4) Just air-dodge and fast-fall. You have a plethora of choices on what to do next when you hit the ground.

I know, most of these would only be possible if the Samus was being played by a gopher with Alzheimer's, but I'm just brain-(THUNDER)storming right now, to see if anybody else thinks of something better.

 

[Squirrely]

Honestly I like that idea and I'll try it next time I fight a Samus I have trouble approaching. Worth an experiment, thank you.

 

[PK-ow!]

I don't see that working. The Samus' floatiness would allow her to time a jump into the boot, air dodge through whatever option you pull, and then come at Ganny from above. Possibly with the arm cannon of metal death.

Not to mention she can outpace Ganon's drift both on the ground and in the air, so she just repositions and uses the broiler on you (flamethrower for Samus noobs uncool people).


However, the FoG is what was in my mind for the ICs matchup. If Ganon constantly goes into the air, ICs can't very well chain grab. Meanwhile, their moderate weight makes them increasingly threatened by any attacks we muster, and they are not very good at striking above themselves. utilt is strong but is actually easily beaten, for a disjoint hitbox, somehow; Usmash takes time to unleash, and the aerial is a laggy, risky option. ICs are of course well-known for having absolutely ****ty air speed, so basically you just have to deal with them running out of the way and coming back.

... so it's like you can camp them. You. Ganon. Camping ICs. Like... Jigglypuff.

Ironic, right?
Like, that's the **********ing definition of ironic.

Then, all you gotta do is trick Nana into dying, possibly (and here's my super secret tech) going so far as Ganonciding for it, and then mop up Sopo on the respawn.
The only trouble with the theory is it doesn't give you anything on the last stock. *sigh* But dammit, you can make it close.

 

[Squirrely]

IC's u-air and u-tilt beat Ganon's d-air and down-b.
It's extremely annoying.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Great news guys! I've found out that Ganon has another impossible match-up. King Dedede.

All of Ganon's moves are subjects to King Dedede's grab to chain throw, due to their ending lag and King Dedede's huge grab range. Gerudos/Aerudos are the only ones that aren't, but that's Gerudo/Aerudo as an approach we're talking about. It is literally impossible to land a move on a King Dedede that just shield grabs. So, at close range it's just shield grabs to Cg, at further range it's projectile spam, and in the air it's a better air game. The match-up should be 90-10, IAOO. Unless someone proves me wrong, and I really hope someone does.

 

[Z1GMA]

- Ough... D3's CG is so **** cheap.

I wish Ganondorf had at least SOME cheap stuff against some characters ''\ <_> /''

Really? Is his grabrelease on Wario the only cheap thing he has in the entire game?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

- Ough... D3's CG is so **** cheap.

I wish Ganondorf had at least SOME cheap stuff against some characters ''\ <_> /''

Really? Is his grabrelease on Wario the only cheap thing he has in the entire game?

Basically, though a lot of others have grab releases on Wario so I wouldn't really count that.

I should also add that Dedede is almost impossible to kill if it isn't a FSmash or a raw sweetspotted UAir.

 

[Z1GMA]

-Ftilt KO's well near the ledge, if D3 has like 115%+
And Fair >>>>> D3's Recovery

 

[Clai]

- Ough... D3's CG is so **** cheap.

I wish Ganondorf had at least SOME cheap stuff against some characters ''\ <_> /''

Really? Is his grabrelease on Wario the only cheap thing he has in the entire game?

Playing cheap is simply dumb and... cheap.

I'd much rather have some ways that certain characters can't gay us so easily (Such as something we can do that's safe on block...) Outplaying your opponent just gives you much more satisfaction in winning than abusing cheap tactics.

 

[Koskinator]

The D3 matchup is far from unwinnable. 65:35 for D3 imo. All he does is sit there shielding until he can grab us, so just run up, dash dance a few times to force a step dodge, then let the flame chokes begin. When he tries to bair edgeguard below the stage, double jump uair him into the wall for stage spike. Its bad, but no where near 90:10.

 

[TP]

A hypothetical match between Ganon and DDD, based on Kalm's post:

Ganon walks up to DDD, not quite in grab range.
DDD shields to do a shield grab.
Ganon does nothing.
DDD's shield breaks.

2nd stock:

Ganon walks up to DDD, not quite in grab range.
DDD does not put his shield up.
Ganon does a Dtilt. DDD has 10 frames to react and put his shield up.
Dtilt>Choke>Dtilt>Choke>Dtilt>Uair.

Throw in Kosk's dash dancing, and everything is fine.

That was a huge oversimplification, but you get the point.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

A hypothetical match between Ganon and DDD, based on Kalm's post:

Ganon walks up to DDD, not quite in grab range.
DDD shields to do a shield grab.
Ganon does nothing.
DDD's shield breaks.

2nd stock:

Ganon walks up to DDD, not quite in grab range.
DDD does not put his shield up.
Ganon does a Dtilt. DDD has 10 frames to react and put his shield up.
Dtilt>Choke>Dtilt>Choke>Dtilt>Uair.

Throw in Kosk's dash dancing, and everything is fine.

That was a huge oversimplification, but you get the point.

You aren't really getting the point. I, obviously, didn't mean to say that DDD could just stand there with his shield up and be able to win. There's a difference between shield grabbing (power shielding to grab), then just shielding to grab.

 

[TP]

You aren't really getting the point. I, obviously, didn't mean to say that DDD could just stand there with his shield up and be able to win. There's a difference between shield grabbing (power shielding to grab), then just shielding to grab.

Fair enough.

I thought of something else: not all matches are played on FD and Smashville. I'm not saying the chaingrab isn't a big deal, but there are plenty of stages where you can minimize its effects. Enough stages to avoid a 90-10 matchup, at any rate.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Fair enough.

I thought of something else: not all matches are played on FD and Smashville. I'm not saying the chaingrab isn't a big deal, but there are plenty of stages where you can minimize its effects. Enough stages to avoid a 90-10 matchup, at any rate.

Well, I'm starting to find DDD's chain throw to be less of a threat, now, since the new ruleset allows different starters.


What determines the starting map anyways?

 

[TP]

Well, I'm starting to find DDD's chain throw to be less of a threat, now, since the new ruleset allows different starters.


What determines the starting map anyways?

You mean which stage is used first in a set? There are 2 methods. One is to put all the starter stages (and which ones fit that criteria is up to the TO) on the random stage selection and then hit random. The other (and better) method is stage striking. You must have an odd number of starters to do it, so the TO would put 1 or 3 of the starter/counter stages into starter. The two players alternate striking out one stage until only one remains. At my first tourney, the starters were FD, BF, SV, YI, Lylat, PS1, and Delfino. Every time, I would strike YI, Lylat, and one other based on what was left. For example, I struck FD when I had to fight ICs. Under stage striking, you could just strike SV and FD against DDD.

 

[Z1GMA]

Playing cheap is simply dumb and... cheap.

So if a Shiek player locks us from like 0% to 90%, he/she is . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . dumb?

 

[B!squick]

Does Bowser's Klaw Drop affect the match up at all?